RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Gillian Mauchan on Saturday 07 February 09 07:27 GMT (UK)
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I guess I am looking for a needle in a haystack - I am looking for any information of Dr James Pawle - he married a Jemima Bacon and the two of themp plus two children 3 and 1 left on the BELLE ALLIANCE as part of Wilsons party in 1820. I have found a letterof application from him to join the settlement from an address in No. 33 Uxbridge Street
Newington Causeway and two follow up letters from 32 Gt St Helens
I have searched Ancestry.com but cannot find any records for this couple - any ideas?
Thanks
Gillian
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Hi,
Here's a record which might give a clue to his earlier life - a Dr James Pawle of Charlotte Street, London, and his partner as a surgeon, apothecary and man-midwife, dissolving that partnership in 1813:
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/issues/16787/pages/2040 (bottom of first column).
It would possibly be worthwhile investing in the 1848 Prerogative Court of Canterbury will of that partner, George Edward Carruthers (£3.50 online from the National Archives), in the hope that there is some family connection between the Carruthers and Pawles. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Good luck
Rob
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Just to say in case you were not aware, there seems to be a few published references to Dr Pawle's life after settlement - you can see by running a search on Google Books, for example.
Rob
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Thanks for that I guess the dissolution of the partnership may have led to move to SA. I am onto some more information on him through a source in SA. It appears he practiced a surgeon in Lower Albany before being appointed to District Surgeon in George in 1825, he died there in 1873. The source in SA also provided me with the names of Jemima's parents and I have found a possible record for her birth in Norfolk.
However I cannot seem to find any Pawle records on freereg.
Will keep digging ::)
Cheers
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
What is the evidence that James Pawle married a Jemima Bacon? All the trees and threads by descendents state it e.g.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENBRIT/1998-09/0905290071
(Though the dates of this thread - even if Francis Bacon had had a son in the year of his death in 1626 that son would have to have been 161 years old when Jemima was born).
The only marriage on the IGI and Pallots marriage index for a James Pawle to a Jemima is this one. Jemima was a widow on her marriage.
JAMES PAWLE
JEMIMA STEPHENSON
Marriage: 21 APR 1813 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London
There is an earlier marriage of a Jemima Bacon to a Stephenson.
1807 St Sepulchre
Jemima Bacon
John Stephenson
No evidence on either marriage index for these marriages that Jemima had a title. Have you looked at the parish registers for either marriage to see whether there are any further clues through witnesses names for instance?
Were there any children from Jemima's first marriage?
If the thread (previous link) is correct about the names of the two eldest Pawle children theirs are presumably these two baptisms from the IGI, but some distance apart in mileage.
JAMES PAWLE
Birth: 10 JUL 1817
Christening: 08 AUG 1817 Ware, Hertford
Father: JAMES PAWLE
Mother: JEMIMA
HENRY RIGG PAWLE
Birth: 22 SEP 1818
Christening: 07 FEB 1819 Saint Mary, Newington, Surrey
Father: JAMES PAWLE
Mother: JEMIMA
Again both baptisms in the parish registers would give the occupation of the father to prove whether they were correct.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Thanks for that - that explains a lot - I have been digging through some parts of Roots web on the South African list and there was a teaser in 2002 that she was a LADY - no proof. The only 'evidence' I have of her were records in the Cape Archives, a death certificate and documents on the 1820settlers website that show she came to SA with her husband and two sons 3 and 1. A daughter was born either mid-ocean or on arrival at Cape Town - the 1820 site has no evidence that a child was born mid-ocean but the daughters death certificate claims she was and lists this couple as her parents. I have tried to look for Jemima Bacon on Parish registers on-line (as I am in Australia) with little success will try and follow your lead. I have located a possible for Christening for her on th IGI records
JAMINER BACON - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Female Christening: 16 JUN 1784 Saint George In The East, Stepney, London, England
Which has parents Stephen Bacon and Martha which matches some information I received fro a source in South Africa
I think we're getting there!
Thanks again for your help
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
What was Jemima's age on her death? Does it fit with the 1784 baptism?
What information does her 1834 South African death notice supply? (held by the Cape Town Archives Repository).
and the other records held by the same repository - are there any clues in these other documents.
PAWLE, JEMIMMA. LIQUIDATION AND DISTRIBUTION ACCOUNT.1834/5
PAWLE, JEMIMA. WIFE OF JAMES PAWLE. WILL. 1834
and the many documents the same repository holds for James e.g.
PAWLE, JAMES. WILL. 1867
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300dl
The other children of Stephen and Martha Bacon
JOHN AYDON BACON
Birth: 16 SEP 1782
Christening: 28 OCT 1782 Saint George In The East, Stepney, London
Father: STEPHEN BACON
Mother: MARTHA
STEVEN BACON
Christening: 02 OCT 1785 Saint George In The East, Stepney, London
Father: STEVEN BACON
Mother: MARTHA
STEPHEN BACON
Birth: 14 MAY 1792
Christening: 26 AUG 1792 Saint George In The East, Stepney, London
Father: STEPHEN BACON
Mother: MARTHA
MARTHA BACON
Birth: 03 OCT 1794
Christening: 26 APR 1795 Saint George In The East, Stepney, London
Father: STEPHEN BACON
Mother: MARTHA
JOSEPH BACKHOUSE BACON
Birth: 26 JAN 1797
Christening: 26 FEB 1797 Saint George In The East, Stepney, London
Father: STEPHEN BACON
Mother: MARTHA
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Thanks for this
Unfortunatelly I wont be able to get to the archives until next time I am back in SA, unless I can con my niece into going for me. I have put together a list of all the records I need to look at and Jemima Bacon's is one I will certainly go and have a look at! Other than that I am pretty sure we have the right family. What I have discovered doing all this research on all my family lines is the ladies were pretty imaginative about their ages The 1784 record for Jemima would have her age at 36 for going to SA in 1820, the settler records claimed she was 32 ;)
Any idea on James? I guess we probably need to find out where he qualified to get a line on him - I have scanned Freereg and I cant see any records for a James Pawle. Again I will need to go the archives and look for his death certificate. Might have to try my luck at getting one of the helpful staff into transcribing it for me!
Regards
Gillian
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Gillian
The South African National Archives website gives a list of professional genealogists working at the different archives including Cape Town.
http://www.national.archives.gov.za/Professional_Freelance_Researchers_January_2009_version_3.pdf
It depends where James qualified - Pawle, Pawl, Paul could easily be a Scottish surname in which case he could easily have qualified in Scotland but if in England you could try the Royal College of Physicians.
http://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/general/gen_search.htm
A birth year of circa 1788 would of course rule out the 1784 baptism for Jemima. The 1807 marriage details (City of London so Guildhall Library) should indicate whether Jemima was underage at the time of her first marriage. Depending whether the marriage was by banns or licence, if she was underage then the licence or the marriage banns book (if it has survived) should indicate who gave permission for her to marry. Witnesses to either marriage might also give a further clue to the origins of both Jemima and James.
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Leisure_and_culture/Libraries/City_of_London_libraries/guildhall_lib.htm
Regards
Valda
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Well I finally got my Niece to get Jemima's death record for me.
On this it gives her age as 48 years and 11 months and her death as May 15th 1834 which certainly brings us closer to the birth I have settled on for her. Her parents are listed as Stephen and Martha Bacon. Children are listed as James Jemima Julia and Maria so I guess Henry must have died in childhood in South Africa. I also obtained copies of the Parish register for both her marriages from Ancestry.com and she was married by 'Banns" in 1807 and again in 1813 by banns as a widow.
Using her siblings second names as a clue I have identified her mother as Martha Aydon who married Stephen Bacon on 28 Nov 1781 married by License - presume that means she was a minor - no clue as to her parentage - the marriage took place in London.
Still have not managed to trace James Pawle or how he qualified - my Niece obtained his letter of application to the post of Surgeon at Port Francis is an abject plea for the post and no reference as to how he is qualified for the post other than to say that 'he was a long resident at Bathurst attending to the settlers with very inadequate or trifling remuneration' and asks to be considered for the post.
Any ideas as to where I can find any info I've searched Munks roll and he doesn't appear there!
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Hi
There is no indication that either couple in the Aydon/Bacon marriage were minors at the time of their marriage. Marrying by licence has no connection with being a minor, it is just waives the three weeks needed for the banns to be called, so you can marry more quickly and more privately.
If Jemima's South African death certificate gave so much information wouldn't it be worth obtaining James'?
Do their wills give any further information?
Did the Royal College of Physicians have no record of him?
Regards
Valda
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I'm waiting for a copy of his death record and will - the Cape Archives put a limit on the number of pages they will copy for you at a time. Hopefully in the next batch I receive I will get another clue. I had hoped that his application letter might enlighten us as to where he trained but not. I have written to the Royal College and am waiting to see if I get a response - I'll update this if I get one!
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St Mary Newington, Southwark
1819 Feb 7, Henry Rigg, s/o James & Jemima PAWLE, Uxbridge St Causeway, Surgeon, born 1818 Sep 22
Ian C
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There are a number of references to him on Google Books, mostly snippet views not full books. One gives a birth year or 1789. The IGI has a submitted entry for him being born in Sussex in 1789.
Ian C
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Hi
Thanks for this I had found the two sons on the IGI James born 1817 and Henry Rigg in 1818 - its good to see his occupation confirmed on Henry's birth - where dod you get that ? I cant find the record you refer to for his birth.
I have the extract from the book on the 1820 settlers and also photos of the letters he wrote to go on the 1820 emigration.
I did put a query up on the 1820 settler site but so far no response. Through rootsweb I managed to get a copy of a photo of him and I also have photos of his daughter Jemima and her husband from the Cape Archives,
He intrigues me as I can't imagine how he became a surgeon without a trace of how he qualified. There was somone trying to dig up information on him in 2000 in Rootsweb but they don't appear to have got any further than me
Gillian
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Just found it attached to the death - not sure I trust that one as it's 'a record submitted by an LDS member'
Will have to wait for the death record from the Cape Archives but I suspect there may not be much information on that!
Cheers
Gillian
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::) Well I received a response from the Royal College of Surgeons - no sign of James - but the archivist says there is a mention of a James Pawle apprenticed to a William Wood apothacrist in July 1805. Will have to go to the State Library and see if I can find it apparently a work called Eighteenth Century Medics (which also includes some earlier and later entries…) by P.J. and R.V. Wallis.
Seems like you may not have had to go through the Royal College to become a surgeon!
Curious!
Gillian
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Hi
see
http://www.apothecaries.org/index.php?page=101
Regards
Valda
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I have just joined and noticed the discussion. I'd be interested to know if you had any further information. My interest stems from the fact that I also had information that Dr Pawle married a Jemima Bacon and which now seems incorrect. Would appreciate any information. Thanks.
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Tom
James did marry Jemima Bacon - it was her second marriage - she initally married a John Stephenson who must have died.
What is your interest in Dr Pawle?
Gillian
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Hi Gilian, my father, Thomas Adam van der Hoven was related to Cornelius Bernardus van der Hoven who married Maria Pawle and who I understand was a daughter of Dr James Pawle and Jemima Bacon.
This is based on information I got from my dad but have only recently tried to delve a bit further.
Tom
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Hi Tom
I can let you have what I know of the Bacon's and Pawle's. Unfortunately I cannot trace Dr Pawle further back - he didn't leave any indication of his parentage on his death record and try as I might I have not been able to find birth records for any Pawle's in that timeframe.
I am descended from his eldest daughter Jemima who marraied William Charles Guest.
Dr Pawle came over on the 1820 settler migration as part of Wilson's Party. His letters of application and the references to Jemima's family are on http://www.eggsa.org/ look under 1820 Settler correspondence. It would appear that his one son Henry Rigg Pawle died just beofore they left England in 1820 - there is a death record in the London Parish records. Jemima Pawle, according to her death record, was born at sea on the journey to South Africa though there is no record of that.
Also on the EGGSA site I have posted pictures of the graveyard where Dr Pawle is burried his stone is included - look under St Marks in George.
One of our relatives has tried to infer that Jemima Bacon was descended from Sir Francis Bacon - this is unlikely given he had no known heirs. They have also tried to infer that she was estranged from her family at the time of her marriage, again unlikely given a Stephen Bacon was witness to the Marriage.
I have copies of the parish records - including osome related to the van der Hoven connection so if you Personal Mail me your Email address I am happy to give you copies
Regards
Gillian
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I can give you further information about Dr Pawle, as one of his daughters (Maria) married Cornelius Bernadus van der Hoven in George, South Africa in 1849.
I'm busy with the genealogy of the Van der Hoven's South Africa link, at this time.
Henk.
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Hi Gilian, my father, Thomas Adam van der Hoven was related to Cornelius Bernardus van der Hoven who married Maria Pawle and who I understand was a daughter of Dr James Pawle and Jemima Bacon.
This is based on information I got from my dad but have only recently tried to delve a bit further.
Tom
Cornelius Bernardus van der Hoven and Maria Pawle had a son Thomas Adam van der Hoven. May be he is your dads grandfather?
Henk.
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Henk
What further information do you have of Doctor Pawle?
I have his will, death record and some letters of application as well as a photocopy of a page of list of apprentices in which I found a James Pawle apprenticed to William Wood - Apocathary in 1805 for 5 yrs at a cost of 50 pounds - I also have a newspaper cutting from January1813where there is a dissolution of partnership notice between him and a George Edward Carruthers both male midwives, Surgeons and Appothacaries.
Do you have the bapstism records for his children born in South Africa?
Regards
Gillian
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Hi Gillian,
Then you have already a lot.
I do not have any copies of anything, but the following:
Dr Pawle setup a practice in Bathurst in the Eastern Cape. (Bathurst is between Grahamstown and Port Alfred). Where apparently, two daughters are born.
In 1825 the family moved to George, to take up the position of District Surgeon. Here, his youngest daughter Maria was born in 1827 who married Cornelius Bernardus van der Hoven on 19 July 1849. Cornelius's parents died when he was very young and was brought up by his elder sister Helena, who married Thomas Adam.
It appears, that Cornelius and Maria with family, moved to Oudtshoorn in about 1863 to start farming with ostriches on the farm Commanasie (now called Buffelsklip). They had 9 children. Born in George and Oudtshoorn.
Cornelius died in Oudtshoorn on about 07.02.1889 and buried in the Oudtshoorn district. Maria died on 3.12.1909 and buried on the farm Waratah in Zastron.
Hope the above is use to you.
Henk.
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I have transcribed all the 1820 settler correspondence at Kew and the letters of James Pawle can be viewed at http://www.eggsa.org/1820-settlers/index.php/p/946-2011-01-04-10-29-20
See the links on the right for other pages where he may be mentioned
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I found this conversation by accident after searching Dr James Pawle. I am a descendant on the Van der Hoven side. My late father started researching James and Jemima Pawle when he retired. As far as family lore goes Jemima was older than her husband and she committed suicide. How true that is I do not know. Tom van der Hoven who also contributed to this discussion must be a cousin of or one of my fathers' cousins sons. My father was Mathijs Wijand Pretorius 1928 - 1994. His grandmother was Maria van Wyk (nee Van der Hoven), my grandmother was Anna Maria Francina (I could have the sequence of names wrong) van Wyk 1908-1999, she had two brothers Tom and Cornelius (Koekies), for some reason I think there was a third brother, and sisters Gwendoline, Olivia and Florence - Diana
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Hi
I did see that research which is filed in the museum in George - I do not know that Jemima committed suicide - that research said she drowned in Knysna but her death notice says she died in George.
I have only researched Maria as far as her marriage and birth of her children
According to my records she had the following children:
- Thomas Adam born 24/10/1850(George) died 5/12/1899 (Rouxville)
Jemima Helen Charlotte born 30/12/1852(George) died 1/1/1869 (Oudshoorn)
James Henry John Born 2/9/1854 (George) died 191/2/1950(Zastron)
Walter born 11/8/1856(George) 29/11/1930(Bloemfontein)
Henry born 13/8/1858(George) 29/9/1936(Zastron)
Olivia Maria born 9/9/1860 (Oudtshoorn) died 16/7/1924 Bloemfontein)
Robert Widdicombe 24/1/1863 (Oudtshoorn) Died 10/4/1959 (Pretoria)
Charles Warden 14/6/1866 (Oudtshoorn) died 9/1/1935 (Pretoria)
Cornelius 26/10/1868 (Oudtshoorn) 17/12/1902 (Aliwal North)
Happy to share any information about the Pawles. As I said earlier I think some of the earlier research into James and Jemima is a little flawed, there is no evidence that she was a "Lady" - I have copies of her birth and marriage records and her parents marriage record and there is no indication of title. Her father was a customs officer according to the baptism records of some of her siblings - I need to explore that further as that may give us an indication of his ancestry, would require a visit to the archives in Kew and trawling through the records to find his employment details. Unfortunatelly "Stephen Bacon" is a pretty common name in London so I have not been able to identify his ancestors - his bride Martha Aydon is also proving problematic - I have found a "Martha Aydon" in Yorkshire but she marries elsewhere and no records of "Aydon" in London. I also have not been able to identify what happened to any of Jemima's siblings - again names too common and with none of their second names coming up in the records ,,,,.
James is also impossible - his apprenticeship records do not list parents and I have not been able to locate a baptism for him. From the age given on the known records he was about 6 years younger than Jemima.
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Hi, Thank you for the info. Very much the same that I remember from my father. Although if I remember correctly she was a niece or more likely a great niece of Sir Francis Bacon. It is very strange that there is so little on James Pawle. Usually with family trees the females are less likely to be researched and the birth of males more accurately recorded. You are correct about her drowning, but the story that I know is that she committed suicide by walking into a river. How true that is nobody will ever know.
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Hi Sir Francis Bacon lived from 22 January 1561 – 9 April 1626 so that is 250 years prior to her birth - so any relationship is tenuous would be a niece several times removed.
The research I found in George had Steven Bacon's parents as Thomas Walter Bacon and Lavinia Winifred ? and his parents as Nicolas Bacon and Eleanor and his parents as Sir Francis Bacon and Jemima Jennings - but given that Sir Francis Bacon was survived by his first (and only) wife with no children.... I suspect the veracity of the research. - I have not been able to find any records that back up any of this parental line!
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Wow yes! I think most people would like to think that they aren't part of just general population. There was a lot of speculation in the Eastern Cape about 'royal' children. Still, you have a whole lot more information that I have. My siblings don't seem to be interested in where we come from, so I am just searching for my own enjoyment.
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Hi Diana
I came across this site while searching ancestry sites. Dr James Pawle's Daughter's Son Robert Widdicombe van der Hoven was my Great Grandfather. One of his Daughter's was Mabel Lilian who was my Grandmother. She married Gerald Bernhard who's Son Denis was my Father
I do have quite a bit of family history.
Regards
Justin
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Hi
I've just joined having found the information on the Pawle's really interesting. My husband is a van der Hoven, his great great great grandfather being Cornelius Bernadus who married Maria Pawle (daughter of Dr James Pawle and Jemima). I also have the story that Lord Bacon is involved somewhere along the line, but having researched that couldn't find any evidence of him having children!! Something which may help with the research on James Pawle is that we have a couple of certificates one from the Institute of Vaccine dated 25 june 1816 which receives him as an honorary member 'on the recommendation of the Board of Managers' and the other dated 1812 which states that he 'hath attended diligently four courses of anatomical lectures' but doesn't say which institute it's from ... These were handed down to us in a box of family papers and photos, I think these are the oldest that are in there.
Henk - if you read this, I believe you are from a close branch of the family tree - Anton's great great grandfather was James Henry John (Robert Widdicombe's brother), and his great grandfather Cornelius Bernadus, who died in the train accident at Salt River in 1926. HIs grandfather was James Frederick who married Hilda Rose Bettington. I don't know whether any of that makes any sense? Do you know anything about the farm Waratah? I would love to find out more about where it was/is? Somewhere near Rouxville/Zastron I believe?