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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: diavalos on Friday 13 February 09 23:29 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am having difficulty proving that a certain person is who she is supposed to be, It is difficult to explain. but here goes. I am researching. Harts in Ashton in Makerfield.
John Hart b. 1856 Ashton. 1901 and 1911 census married to Mary Ann, a year or two younger than John. and married 35 years, she is born in Poulton-Le- Fylde.
1891 the couple have the right children and living in Ashton.
1881. John and Mary Ann are in Ashton but on the census living as John and Mary Ann Holding.along with 2 children. The eldest born in Burnley. Holden (not Holding) was Johns Stepfathers name.
The only Mary Ann that i can find born Poulton-Le-Fylde is a Mary Ann Casey, B. 1870- but living in Burnley according to the 1871 census this Mary ann Casey has the right parents James and Catherine Casey, but is born Preston although her brother is born Blackpool (same area as Poulton-Le-Fylde)
1881 there is a Mary Ann Casey living in Burnley still with the right family,but aged 9 years.(fits with the 1871 birth.
This person is too young to be married to John Hart, but everything else points to her being the right person
John and Mary Anns first child was born in Burnley in 1878.
I have tried to find a marriage for these two but cannot find one. All i have found is a marriage between John Hart and Mary Ann Atherton the date is 1876. that fits with the 35 years married, but i cannot find any trace of a Mary Ann Atherton born Blackpool or Poulton. Nor can i find a marriage between Mary Ann Casey and John Hart.
This is all very confusing, Is there anyone who can save my sanity with a solution please..
Regards Joyce
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Hi Joyce
That's a tale and a half!
I wonder if there's a second marriage somewhere?
Best wishes
Emms
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I thought of that. Maybe he married 2 Mary Anns, but 1911 says the have both been married 35years. I also wondered if there had been two he didnt actually marry the second one.
Joyce
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Hi
Yes, I saw that. I was thinking of a marriage before the this one but it would have to have been a very short one. Stranger things have happened!?!
Looks like one to think on! There must be some explanation!
I'll have another think!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hello,
There a several Mary Ann Athertons born in Lancashire around 1856-1860 on Free BMD. INcluding one in Bolton.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Another thought is that Mary Ann had had an earlier short lived marriage.
regards
Robyn in Australia
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Hi Joyce and Regross
Regross you look as id you're thinking along the same lines as me.
I looked on 1861 and there are a few Mary Ann's born around the right time in or near Poulton, including Mary Ann Cartmel.
I think it's a better end of the day for this in Australia, Robyn.
I'll see where you've got to with it by our morning!
Best wishes both.
Emms
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Just because you think they were too young doesn't mean that they didn't marry - although the apparent change of surname hints at abnormal events.
My own gg grandmother Nancy Knowles married in 1861, aged 14. The marriage entry claims that both parties were of full age. Her age at the subsequent censuses matches perfectly with her baptism in 1847, and other relatives in the household in 1871 confirm that this is the right person.
There was a gap of over 3 years before their first child was born, possibly to keep the neighbours from talking!
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Today i received a birth certificate for one of Mary Anne' children it confirms that her mother's maiden name was Casey. So yes i have got the right person. It is just the date of Mary Anne's birth that is a mystery. One of my theories is that she was born before or maybe just after her parent's were married 1865.. Maybe the bir th wasn't registered until after another child was born. 1870ish. Another theory of mine is that rather than being the daughter of James Casey she may have been his sister and then James went on to have a child named Mary Ann. That doesnt really explain the Poulton-le-fylde birth place though. Ah well i shall battle on.
Joyce
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Hi
Just a thought:
There's a James Casey married "Cathrine Keough" in the Fylde
Oct - Dec 1865 Index 8e 866 (Free bmd)
I was looking for a Mary Ann Keough but only a few in Manchester and other places, so you'd have to go with your Mary Ann born Preston.
I'll have another look.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Joyce,
I am wondering why you are puzzling about the Mary Ann CASEY b 1870?
Apart from her age, she surely can't be relevant.
In 1881, that Mary A. CASEY is a Scholar aged 9 and is living at home with her parents.
In the same census, 1881, Mary Ann, aged 26, wife of John HART/HOLDING, is living with John and has two children - Jessie 3 and William 1.
Mary Ann, wife of John HART, is consistently recorded (including the birthplace of Poulton-le-Fylde):
1881 26
1891 31 (I think this might be 36)
1901 46
And you say that, in 1911 Mary Ann's age is again consistent, and that both John & Mary Ann say they have been married 35 years.
This strongly suggests that it is not a case of a second marriage (to a younger Mary Ann).
And, as you say, the 35 years fits with the marriage of John HART, Dec quarter 1875, Wigan with a Mary Ann ATHERTON on the same page.
Do you have this marriage certificate? If not, perhaps it might throw some light on the situation.
You say you have a birth certificate for one of the children of John & Mary Ann, and that it shows the mother's m.s. as CASEY. Which child is that, please?
Best of luck,
JAP
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Hi again Joyce,
I've been thinking that perhaps Mary Ann wasn't born in Poulton le Fylde but grew up there - and so she always assumed that it was her birthplace?
The following is probably a complete red herring but I'll throw it into the mix.
I searched for CASEY in Fylde.
And came across the following in 1861 ...
Mary CASEY, Granddaughter, age 2 (i.e. ca 1859), born Isle of Man, in the household of John MCMANUS, 70, b Ireland, Lodging House Keeper, Church St, Poulton le Fylde.
Ellen CASEY, Widow, 55 b Ireland, Servant, a Lodger in the household of Nancy MCMANUS, Widow, 75, b Ireland, a Common Lodging House Keeper, Church St, Poulton le Fylde.
JAP
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Thanks for that.
Strangely enough on the 1891 census there is a David Miller b Isle of Man living with the Harts he is a nephew, I will have to delve a little further into this. I have a birth certificate for Mary Elizabeth Hart who is my husband's grandmother,
I still think i have the right family but maybe i am being blinkered, and as they are quite an interesting lot, it probably suits me. but i will fefinately have a look at the McManus connection.
Joyce
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Hi again Joyce,
...
Strangely enough on the 1891 census there is a David Miller b Isle of Man living with the Harts he is a nephew, I will have to delve a little further into this. ...
Joyce, I did notice 2yo David MILLER with the HARTs in 1891 and wondered if that might give some sort of lead - but stupidly I didn't twig his Isle of Man birthplace!
...
I still think i have the right family ...
Joyce, I'm not sure what you mean by this :)
Mary Ann CASEY b 1870 is surely right out of the picture unless you have some other reason for still being interested in her??? Though I can't think what it could be.
Incidentally, the name Mary Ann ATHERTON is also interesting. If I recall correctly(I didn't!) from looking up censuses earlier today, there's a girl of that name in Fylde - they were in Kersley - recorded as daughter of Charles FILDES who has wife Martha. And Mary Ann's dob is ca 1855 which is well and truly before the marriage of Charles FILDES and Martha ATHERTON in 1864 (see FreeBMD); this 16yo Mary Ann, despite being a Nurse, is recorded as Near Blind from Measles.
Mary CASEY's grandfather John MCMANUS is probably the John MCMANUS who died in Fylde in 1865.
But where is this Mary CASEY in 1871.
On we go ...
JAP
Note: later edit is in red
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Hi all,
I just thought I would add this to your information.
Actually in England it was legal for a girl of 14 years to be married, but a boy had to be at least 16 and prove he could look after a wife.
haselbury
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Hi all,
I just thought I would add this to your information.
Actually in England it was legal for a girl of 14 years to be married, but a boy had to be at least 16 and prove he could look after a wife.
haselbury
haselbury,
Age for legal marriage in England has changed over time.
So it is always useful to specify precisely what time period in England you are referring to - and to cite sources if possible.
JAP
PS: Just to add a comment for interest - ages in Scotland were another matter altogether and there are still differences between English Law and Scots Law.
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Hi,
I am sorry I was not more Technical in my last post. But the laws in England and Wales were quite plain when it came too.
Age of Concent in England and Wales:
The age of consent for heterosexual acts in England was set at 12 in 1275 and remained so for six centuries - due to the wording of the law, the age of consent only applied to women (consequently, all amendments to the law also only applied to women). The wording was along the lines of "It shall be deemed illegal to ravage a maiden who is not of age" - at the time "of age" being 12. Therefore, there was, and is, technically no age of consent for the male participant
- unless the female participant is an adult in which case laws pertaining to sex with a minor and so on come into force. The English law became applicable in Wales following the Acts of Union (1536 and 1543). In medieval Welsh law there was no actual equivalent of the concept of the age of consent as such, but a girl was marriagable at 12-14 (the onset of puberty) and a fine was payable for the taking of a girl's maidenhood by force; the rules varied according to status and may not have been applied rigidly to commoners
A concern that young girls were being sold into brothels led Parliament to raise the age of consent to 13 in 1875 under the Offences Against the Person Act 1875. After W. T. Stead's Maiden Tribute articles, the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 raised the age of consent to 16.
Male-male homosexual activity had been illegal since the Buggery Act 1533 and this was reinforced in the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 and the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 extended buggery laws to include any kind of sexual activity between males. It is common folklore that an amendment that would have criminalised lesbian acts was rejected by Queen Victoria because she refused to believe that some women did such things; but it is likelier that those presenting the amendment excluded it (as did the House of Lords 40 years later) on the assumption that it would give women ideas.]
Male homosexual acts were decriminalised under the Sexual Offences Act 1967, Section 1, although the age of consent for such acts was set at 21, whereas the age of consent for heterosexual acts was 16. However, the legislation applied only in England and Wales.
haselbury
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Thanks haselbury,
Much clearer.
And showing changes over time.
Best regards,
JAP
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Hi Haselbury
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Hi Haselbury
Thanks for that you are very knowledgeable, and i didn't know any of that. I know that the dates of Mary Anne's birth are way out, but my gut instinct is telling me that she is the right person, whether she is or not remains to be seen, but i shall keep an open mind and keep looking.
Regards Joyce
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Believe it or not the legal age for marriage didn't become 16 until the
Age of Marriage Act of 1929 until then girls of 12 and boys of 14 could legally marry in England.
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The best way to determine Mary Ann's surname is to get a birth cert for a child. In a look in freebmd years 1876 to 1879 the only birth anywhere for a Jessie F Hart is this one, so I think it might clarify your dilemma. (But I agree with Jap, it looks as though John Hart married Mary Ann Atherton)
Births Mar 1878
Hart Jessie Frances Burnley 8e 221
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Thanks
I am waiting for Jessies birth certificate, and will kepp you posted as to the outcome when it arrives.
Joyce
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I'm still puzzled about the following statement in reply #7 ...
... Today i received a birth certificate for one of Mary Anne' children it confirms that her mother's maiden name was Casey. So yes i have got the right person. ...
In reply #9 I asked which child that was. This query hasn't yet been answered. It would be interesting to know.
It would seem sensible initially to get the birth certificates of the eldest and youngest children.
Jessie Frances, Burnley, 1878 seems to be the eldest.
At the time of the 1901 census, Alice aged 1, b Ashton Florence aged 3, b St Helens, was the youngest.
Perhaps there were younger children by the time of the 1911 census?
JAP
Note: later edit is in red
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Thanks for that.
Strangely enough on the 1891 census there is a David Miller b Isle of Man living with the Harts he is a nephew, I will have to delve a little further into this. I have a birth certificate for Mary Elizabeth Hart who is my husband's grandmother,
I still think i have the right family but maybe i am being blinkered, and as they are quite an interesting lot, it probably suits me. but i will fefinately have a look at the McManus connection.
Joyce
Maybe this is the one. There is a birth
dec quarter 1901 district Wigan vol 8c page 185
Mary Elizabeth Hart
Mary is b Ashton in Makerfield according to the 1901 (where she is down as Mary Edith, but I think it reads Mary Eliz th) which is covered by the Wigan reg district.
Joyce, did you get the birth cert, or was it given you by another member of the family?
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I got the certificate from the GRO. I searched for ages for Mary Elizabeth and then realised that she was recorded as Mary Edith. or at least that was how it had been transcribed. They dont make life easy do they?
Joyce
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But which certificate have you got?
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Looking forward to hearing what is recorded as the mother's maiden name on Jessie Frances's birth certificate!
If it is CASEY, I'm not sure where that will leave us!!
JAP
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Hi all
Received Jessie Francess Hart's birth cert today. She was born 15th Jan 1878 at Holton St. Habergam Eaves nr. Burnley. Father John Hart coal miner and wait for it...........mother Mary Ann Casey.Certainly some more digging to be done here.
Joyce
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Hi,
I am sorry I was not more Technical in my last post. But the laws in England and Wales were quite plain when it came too.
Age of Concent in England and Wales:
The age of consent for heterosexual acts in England was set at 12 in 1275 and remained so for six centuries - due to the wording of the law, the age of consent only applied to women (consequently, all amendments to the law also only applied to women). The wording was along the lines of "It shall be deemed illegal to ravage a maiden who is not of age" - at the time "of age" being 12. Therefore, there was, and is, technically no age of consent for the male participant
- unless the female participant is an adult in which case laws pertaining to sex with a minor and so on come into force. The English law became applicable in Wales following the Acts of Union (1536 and 1543). In medieval Welsh law there was no actual equivalent of the concept of the age of consent as such, but a girl was marriagable at 12-14 (the onset of puberty) and a fine was payable for the taking of a girl's maidenhood by force; the rules varied according to status and may not have been applied rigidly to commoners
A concern that young girls were being sold into brothels led Parliament to raise the age of consent to 13 in 1875 under the Offences Against the Person Act 1875. After W. T. Stead's Maiden Tribute articles, the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 raised the age of consent to 16.
Male-male homosexual activity had been illegal since the Buggery Act 1533 and this was reinforced in the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 and the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 extended buggery laws to include any kind of sexual activity between males. It is common folklore that an amendment that would have criminalised lesbian acts was rejected by Queen Victoria because she refused to believe that some women did such things; but it is likelier that those presenting the amendment excluded it (as did the House of Lords 40 years later) on the assumption that it would give women ideas.]
Male homosexual acts were decriminalised under the Sexual Offences Act 1967, Section 1, although the age of consent for such acts was set at 21, whereas the age of consent for heterosexual acts was 16. However, the legislation applied only in England and Wales.
haselbury
Unfortunately you have confused the age of consent to sexual intercourse with the age of consenting to marry.
They are not the same.
Under ecclesiastical law a couple could marry as long as they understood the significance of the ceremony.
Girls as young as 7 years old married but they did not have sexual intercourse until puberty.
Ecclesiastical law and civil law were out of step with each other many times until 1927 when they finally worked in unison.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi all
Received Jessie Francess Hart's birth cert today. She was born 15th Jan 1878 at Holton St. Habergam Eaves nr. Burnley. Father John Hart coal miner and wait for it...........mother Mary Ann Casey.Certainly some more digging to be done here.
Joyce
Hello Joyce,
Hmmm ...
At least that seems to discount any suggestion that two marriages might have been involved given that:
*John HART's wife Mary Ann is recorded in every census from 1881-1911 with a consistent age (b ca 1855) and consistent birthplace (Poulton-le-Fylde)
*In 1911 the length of their marriage is given as 35 years
*On an 1878 birth cert (Jessie Frances) and an ?1892 birth cert (Mary Elizabeth), the mother is recorded as Mary Ann CASEY
The problems seem to be:
*No Mary Ann CASEY, b ca 1855, Poulton-le-Fylde has been located in 1861 or 1871
*No marriage of a John HART to a Mary Ann CASEY has been located between 1871 and 1881.
In 1871 John HART (John's surname given as HART), 18, unmarried, coal miner drawer, b Ashton in Makerfield was living in Ashton in Makerfield with his stepfather, William HOLDEN, mother Frances, HART brothers & sisters, and a HOLDEN half-sister. By 1881, John & Mary Ann (recorded as his wife) were together with children Jessie F 3, and William 1.
A slight complication is:
*In 1881, John's household is recorded with the surname HOLDING.
(Incidentally, in 1881 his stepfather's household is also recorded as HOLDING. By 1891 it is back to HOLDEN - transcribed as HOLDER.)
What now?
JAP
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Hi
i really dont know, but after receiving the cert and seeing Habergham Eaves as the address i remembered that some time ago i found a Mary A Casey living at Habergham. It is the 1891 Census and Mary A is 20 and born Blackpool. I discounted it at the time but now i think that maybe she is the Mary A on the 1871 census age 9 living with who i believe to be my Mary Anns parents she is recorded as daughter, but i have wondered if maybe she is a neice or illegitimate or i dont know! It is all very confusing. I spent all yesterday evening searching for a marriage with every different name they have used but to no avail. I might try Burnley library next week as they apparently have marriage indexes. The Caseys were Catholic and family rumour has it that their was some religious break in the family but no-one knows what.
Onwards and upwards then I will solve this if it kills me.
Joyce
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Hello Joyce,
I think you might be getting a tad confused. :)
You refer to a Mary A CASEY who is 20, b Blackpool, living in Habergsham Eaves in 1891 and suggest she is the same as a Mary A CASEY who was "on the 1871 census age 9". But someone aged 9 in 1871 would be ca 29 in 1891 ...
Do you mean aged 9 in 1881??
Are you talking about the family of James CASEY & wife Catherine??
I will try to set down some details of this family - it might help everybody in investigating your puzzle.
1865
Probable marriage. Dec qtr Fylde. James CASEY, a Cathrine KEOUGH on the same page.
1871
RG10/4146/150/24
7 Basket St, Burnley, Lancashire
CASEY
James, Head, 25, Cab Driver, b Ireland Co Myo.
Catherine, Wife, 20, b Dublin
John, Son, 4
Thomas, Son, 3
Edward, Son, 2
Mary Ann, Daughter, 1
Children all born Blackpool
1881
RG11/4147/67/50
41 Milton St, Burnley
CASEY
James, Head, 38, Cab Driver, b Irland (sic)
Catherine, Wife, 33, b Oldham, Lancashire
Thomas, Son, 13, b Blackpool
Edward, Son, 12, b Burnley
Mary A, Daughter, 9, b Preston
Catherine, Daughter, 7, b Bolton
James, Son, 7, b Burnley
Martin, Son, 5, b Burnley
Ellin, Daughter, 2, b Burnley
1891
*RG12/3364/12/18
8 Raws Ct, Burnley
CASEY
Thomas, Head, 23, General Labourer, b Oldham
Edward, Brother, 22, Coachman, Blackpool
Ellen, Sister, 12, Scholar, b Blackpool
and a lodger
All are unmarried
*RG12/3367/19/5
Habergham Eaves
Mary A CASEY, Servant, Unmarried, 20, General Servant, b Blackpool
There is nothing in the 1871 and 1881 censuses which would suggest that this Mary A(nn) CASEY was anything other than the daughter of James & Catherine.
Incidentally, there is no actual mention in the above censuses of Poulton-le-Fylde. But it does seem likely that John, Edward and Mary Ann are the following three CASEY births registered in Fylde - John Sep qtr 1866, Edward Jun qtr 1869, Mary Ann Jun qtr 1870.
You say that this Mary A CASEY was "living with who i believe to be my Mary Anns parents".
If by "my Mary Ann" you mean Mary Ann (CASEY) HART b 1855, then that's simply not possible.
James and Catherine are far too young to be the parents of "your" Mary Ann.
In 1881, James & Catherine are recorded as 38 and 33 (and in 1871, their recorded ages were even lower - 25 and 20). "Your" Mary Ann (wife of John HART) was 26 in 1881.
I wonder where the idea (i.e. that "your" Mary Ann had parents named James & Catherine) came from?
Regards,
JAP
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I'VE FOUND IT!
As you can see, I'm quite excited. ::)
http://www.lawsons.ca/marriages/ca-01.html
Isle of Man Marriages
CASEY, Mary Ann (date)30 Jan 1876 (dis)D (vol)A2 (page)61 HART, John
JAP
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Dear Joyce,
Now I've come down to earth I'll tell you how I got there.
To quote your own words, I was feeling a bit the same way i.e. "I will solve this if it kills me".
Remember Mary CASEY (I mentioned her in reply #10) living in Poulton-le-Fylde in the household of her 70yo Grandfather, John MCMANUS b Ireland? Mary was said to be aged 2 and born Isle of Man.
That connexion of the Isle of Man and Poulton-le-Fylde has been niggling away at me.
And remember that there was a connexion of the Isle of Man and the HARTs - David MILLER, Nephew, aged 2, born Douglas, Isle of Man, living with John HART & Mary Ann in 1891?
(Incidentally, he seems to have become David Wm HART, Son, 12, born Durham by 1901!?)
Well, today I thought I should really, if at all possible, explore those Isle of Man connexions.
So first to check out the censuses.
I first tried a search of the 1871 IoM census for a Mary CASEY - only one.
1871
RG10/5776/166/15
68 Duke St, Onchan, Isle of Man
CASEY
Martin (transcribed as Marlon), Head, 43, Umbrella Maker & Workg Cutler, b Roscommon Ireland
Jessie, Wife, 35, b Aberdene Ireland (sic)
Mary A, Daughter, Unmarried, 16, Assistant Umbrella Maker, b England
Jessie, Daughter, 11, Scholar, b Douglas, Isle of Man
June, Daughter, 9, Scholar, b England
Martin, Son, 6, Scholar, b Douglas
James, Son, 4, b Douglas
Samuel J, Son, 3 mths, b Douglas
LEACH, Samuel, Nephew, 17, Assistant Cutler, b Whithorn Scotland
So ... A Mary A CASEY of exactly the right age, born in England, and with a mother called Jessie (name of "your" Mary Ann's first child).
I looked up Isle of Man resources on the relevant RC board. Unfortunately I wasted a lot of time! I clicked on the Brian Lawson site listed there and it said all the info had been transferred to the IofM FHS. Went there and it seemed it was necessary to take out membership in order to access useful info. Of course, had I actually read the instructions on the Brian Lawson site, I would have seen that it says to click on 'Research' on the FHS site - that actually brings up his (free) indexes. Duh!
Finally I thought I'd have one last try so put
"Isle of Man" BDM
into Google and the very first hit led me to Brian Lawson's wonderful marriage index and the Great Discovery!
From the IoM FHS site at http://www.iomfhs.im/ , click on 'Research', one can also access (free) his other great indexes.
In 1881, Jessie CASEY was a widow (still making umbrellas and listed as b Scotland); in 1901 she was with son Martin & family in Everton, Lancs.
The Brian Lawson burials index lists Martin CASEY, age 49, date 23 Feb 1874.
Anyway, have fun! It looks as though this might open up possibilities for much more research going backwards.
Thank you for an interesting puzzle!
Regards,
JAP
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Eureka
I have found it. Mary Ann Casey married John Hart Dec 1874. Isle of man. Thankyou you have saved my sanity
Joyce
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Hi again
I was so excited i wrote the date down wrong. but it is there. So i dont care. I am celebrating with coffee and chocolate bisciuts. Long live the Isle-of-man.
Joyce
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My dear Joyce,
Don't worry!
I was so excited that I celebrated with something stronger - and it's not even my family and I have no Manx connexions!!
I nearly gave up but thought I would have just one last try!
And, as you say, Eureka!!
Hey! I hope it's right!!
All the very best,
JAP
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FANTASTIC work JAP, have another one :D ;D ;D
Trish
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Thanks Trish,
I need no urging!!
It's just so great that Mary Ann has been found (assuming it's the right Mary Ann - but it surely must be!).
I always have been (long long before any interest in genealogy), for some unknown reason, rather taken by the triskelion ...
And it's always good to hear from a Trish. ;)
JAP
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Hi Joyce and Jap.
That's absolutely brilliant!
Thank you too for that link to the Isle of Man Marriage index!
I didn't know about this and I was just about to start looking for something else!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi
Just a bit of an update now i have come back to earth again.
I definately think we have got it right this time. I discovered that Mary Ann's sister Jessie Casey married John Herbert Miller, who i believe was David Miller's mother.Remember he David Miller who put us on the right track. David had a sister Charlotte but haven't done much on her yet. Jessie Miller was in the IOM workhouse (hospital aswell as workhouse) David was born 1890 so maybe her death was connected. Need to find out what Jessie died of.Coincidence is my husbands father was named John Herbert.
Best bit. We live about 15min away from Poulton-le-fylde where Mary Ann lived with her grandparents in 1861, and after a visit to the town and a chat to a lady from the local history society, i now know that John Mcmanus grandfather is buried in the Catholic Church graveyard in the town. So i will go and have a look for it, but only on a sunny day as it is a bit creepy there.
Also that in1861 Ann Mcmanus was John's wife but in 1871 and 1881 she became Nancy Mc manus and continued looking after the lodging house until her death in 1888. The lodging house is now the entrance to a shopping centre.
It is truly exhausting, but i will soldier on.
Joyce
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Hello Joyce,
Do you have John Herbert MILLER, wife Jessie CASEY and daughter Charlotte in 1881?
RG11/4291/11/21
In Barrow-in-Furness, Lancashire, in the household of a William MILLER, 45, Iron Ship Rivetters Holder, wife and 5 children plus John Herbert MILLER 27, Nephew, Ships Steward on SS Antrim, b Ireland; Jessie MILLER, Nephew's wife, 21 b Isle of Man; Charlotte Wylie MILLER, 1 month, b Isle of Man.
Brian Lawson's Isle of Man lists include.
Charlotte Wyli b 5 Feb 1881, parents John Herbert MILLER & Jessie CASEY
Robert Alexand b 23 Apr 1883, same parents; Robert Alexander MILLER, age 7 months, burial 12 Dec 1883.
William David b 8 Sep 1888, same parents
JAP
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Hi
Yes i have got all those.
Having trouble in finding Charlotte though after the 1881 census. I am sure she will turn up somewhere.
Joyce