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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: hijimhere on Saturday 14 February 09 22:50 GMT (UK)
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Ours is a story of my grand father Alexander Drummond (d1941) lost his wife in 1928 who we think is buried in Alexandria. Because of this the story in the family is that we had to "come off the road".
Regretably my father would never talk about our heritage or any family matters.
That we came from "tinkers", oh this is a word that has been corrupted from the Irish Galic for Tinsmith-tin worker-- I have olive coloured skin which it has been said is a sign of the Romany heritage, my two brothers and three sisters are also dark.
So we never knew my fathers aunts or uncles as he wouldn't speak of them and we had never visited any relations beyond my fathers own brothers and sisters. On reflection we did have contact with one cousin of my fathers who was twice removed but very respectful of the Drummond heritage and name.
His Name was Archie Burke, a real likeable sort of bloke who had a very cheerful outlook.
This means it has been very hard to try to trace any links on his side. My mother came from Aberdeenshire and had no connection with Tinkers.
Fron what we do know my grandfather who was Alexander had married Christina McCallum (d1928). His father was also Alexander and he married Mary Mcfie--I should say jumped the broom as marriage wasn't a formalised church thing.
Alexander and Christina we think did have a church wedding in 1898 in Greenock but we have not been able to prove that it was my paternal Gran and Grandad Drummond.
Another story which comes down is the scotish way of naming children. The Drummond first born sons were always called Alexander, we don't know if this is a scotishtradition or if it is a Drummond one. But the scottish patterns of naming are that the first boy would usually take the fathers father first name. The first girl would take the mothers mother's first name.
The next boy would be named after his father and the next girl after the mother. Then subsequest children would be called after the fathers brothers and the girls were names after the mothers sisters.
My first born carries the middle name of Alexander as my wife chose his first name as Jamie. I would be interested in any "Drummond-McCallum - McFie"
stories or know connections of any sort.
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I'm sorry that I don't know any travellers' stories but I have checked some records for you.
Alexander and Christina did marry in Greenock on 21 Sept 1898 (Church of Scotland). he was then 23 and a Basket Hawker (address given as 4 West Burn Street, Greenock) and Christina was 21 (address - 8 Hardie Lane, Greenock)
His parents were, as you say, Alexander Drummond, a Basket Hawker, and Mary m.s. McFie.
Christina's were George McCallum, Hawker (deceased) and Elizabeth, m.s Johnstone.
Witnesses were Rachel McCallum and Donald Reid.
It might be worth checking for the parents' deaths on Scotlands People. This will give you their parents names:
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk It's pay to view but very reasonable.
Best regards
Gadget
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Hi again
I think that this might be your Archie Burke:
1901 Census
28 Dalrymple Street, Greenock
District 564/2 ED 1 page 11
Household of Patrick Sweeney a Lodging House keeper and mason
Archibald Burke, lodger, 26, tinsmith, b.Stirling
Bella Burke, 24, b. Aberfeldy
Duncan Burke, 4, b. Dunoon
Mary Burke, 1, b. Dunoon
Gadget
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According to the IGI ( www.familysearch.org ) , Alexander Drummond and Mary McFie had the following children:
1861 Mary - Balfron,Stirling
1863 Alexander - Callendar, Perth
1867 John - Port of Montieth, Perth
1869 James - Stralachan, Argyll
1871 Adam - Row, Dunbarton
1874 Alexander - Gargunnock, Stirling
Gadget
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Trying to link Archie Burke to the Drummonds.
I think this is his birth (IGI)
5 Oct 1872 St Ninians, Stirling - Archibald Burke. Parents - Alexander Burke and Mary MacDondald
On the 1881 census, the Burke family are living in a tent on Camiesken Shore, Cardross, Dunbartonshire
Parish 494 ED 4 page 230
Alexander Burke, 49, tinsmith, b. NK, Argyllshire
Mary, b. NK, Invernessshire
(9 children including Archibald, aged 9)
also
Mary Drummond*, daughter in law, 20, b. NK, Stirlingshire (could be married to either sons William, 19, or John, 21)
and their children
Alexander Burke, 2, b. NK, Stirlingshire
Mary Burke, 1 month, b. NK, Stirlingshire
* Is she the daughter of Alexander Drummond and Mary McFie b.Balfron, Stirling on my previous message.
I can list the whole family for you, if you'd like. However, I'm touch typing by the light of my laptop at the moment so it might take a while ;D
Gadget
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Fantastic--thank you, really thank you.
the main problem is that we need to prove Alexander and Mary McFie are my paternal great grand parents. The ones we think are right have nothing to connect them to my grandfather Alexander (d1941) Perth age 61 this is fairly certain as he never remarried and the address given is 13f Hunter Cres, Perth where I spent my formative years as my father took over the tenancy...that would make Alexander's dob 1880!
In 1898 that would make him 17/18 and not in his 20's. Ideally we need a cencus record 1881/1891/1901 for alexander/Mary where we can tie down--could be that the ages were porkies for some reason???
Really appreciate what you have done and I have yet to absorb it
Jim
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Just noticed your Alexander at Garnagunnock would be the right age in 1898 for the wedding Alexander.
However this leaves us with c1880 birth for my grandfather which is more likely.
His children were Mary, Christina, Alexander, John, Barbara and George my father. Alexander and John ended up in Alexandria, Mary married John Rocks and ended in Kirkauldy, Barbara and my dad Perth and Christina in Forfar.
I think I have the order right, so mary would be named after her grandmother, Christina after her mum, Alexander after his grandfather and father.
if the theory of naming works John Barbara and George would be aunt/uncles they were named after!
Jim
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The ones we think are right have nothing to connect them to my grandfather Alexander (d1941) Perth age 61 this is fairly certain as he never remarried and the address given is 13f Hunter Cres, Perth where I spent my formative years as my father took over the tenancy...that would make Alexander's dob 1880!
In 1898 that would make him 17/18 and not in his 20's. Ideally we need a cencus record 1881/1891/1901 for alexander/Mary where we can tie down--could be that the ages were porkies for some reason???
Hi Jim
The Alexander Drummond who died January 10th 1941 (usual residence 13 Hunters Crescent, Perth), aged 66 was the widower of Christina McCallum and his parents were Alexander Drummond, Basket maker (deceased) and Mary maiden surname McPhee,deceased.
I think this death cert does connect him. He is shown as 23 at his marriage in 1898 and 66 at his death in 1941, giving DoB of circa 1875. This fits with the Alexander who was shown as b. Gargunnock, Stirling in 1874. I think the one b. 1863 must have died.
Regards
Gadget
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wow--how did you do that--it must be spot on, we were always told that Alexander was 61 when he died--
I spoke to my elder brother this morning, he lives in Scotland, Sandy (Alexander) he says there a connection to Greenock where they got married do you have anything on that?
I cannot thank you enough.
Kind regards
jim
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Hi Jim
All Scottish BMDS of that time are on the Scotland's People site - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk It's pay to view but the certs are only 6 credits. You register and buy credits in multiples of 30 (1 credit=20p).
The Scottish certs are brilliant as they give full details of parents :)
Gadget
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Thanks I have payed a it a visit and will be looking again---thank you for your very kind effort
Jim
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Hi again :)
Would you like me to check the Drummonds up on the censuses - so far I've oly given you the Burkes. It was quite late on last night when I did it so I just gave you the broad outline :)
Also, what sources have you been using to trace them in Scotland so far? As I said, the Scotlands People site has the best coverage but the free IGI on www.familysearch.org also has good coverage of Scottish statutory BMD records from 1855 to about 1875.
Gadget
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Thanks that would be good of you.
how do I get to the IGI ones?
Kind regards
jim
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If you click on this link:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
It will take you direct to the search page of the IGI . Fill in the necessary info - give a wide margin for dates .
I'm looking at the 1901 - did Alexander and Christina have a John (b.c.1897) and an Alexander (b.c. 1899) and did they live in Dunfermline for a time?
Gadget
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They did have John and Alexander but I think Alexander would probably be 1st born... wondering if the Greenock wedding meant they were living there, I think thats Dumbartonshire or Lothian though
Jim
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Here we are:
1901
20 Tobago Street, Greenock, Renfrewshire
District 564/2 ED 9 Page 20
Drummond
Alexr, 26, Hawker of Oilcloth, b. Balfron
Christina, 24, Hawker oilcloth, b. Balfron
Adam, brother, 22, Hawker oilcloth, b Dunblane
Henry Coyle, boarder, 43, dealer - furniture, b. Greenock
James Bowers, boarder, 35, dealer - furniture, b. Greenock
:)
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Can;t see them on the 1891 so far - will have to do some more checking. Here they are in 1881:
Cardross, Dunbartonshire
District 494 ED 5 Page 54
Drummond
Alexander, 42, Travelling Tinker, Basket Maker, b. Dunkeld
Mary McPhee, wife, 4?, Travelling Tinker, b. Montieth
John, 14, Travelling Tinker, b. Montieth
James, 11, Travelling Tinker, b. Strachar
Alexander, 5, Travelling Tinker, b. Gargunnock
Janet, 4, b. Stirling
Adam, 1, b. Dunblane
:)
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mmmm at a glance the children ages are a bit awray & The places born to, with the apearance of a mid child Janet....it looks good otherwise --notice dthat garnagunnock is the same birth place as the Alexander we want and the age isn't far away though
Jim
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Ages on the censuses are often wrong. It is the correct family - the mother is Mary McPhee!
Gadget
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thanks gadget my confidence is back again..had a go at the IGI and got full birth dates for the children....am I ok in using these as a base line to try to trace?
Amazed that in the space of 24 hours I know that my great grandfather was born in Dunkeld c1834 now that is a bit unbelievable but it's true. may be difficult from now on I gather as it all depends on if the birth resulted in a christening and entered in the church records.
I will have a good go at the IGI site..... thank you once again for an astounding journey, I hope I can succeed with some more.
Jim
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Hi Jim
As long as the records on the IGI are extracted records then they are pretty reliable. The Extracted records are quite easy to recognize because they have a Batch number, date, etc. at the bottom of the personal information - often an alphanemeric starting with a C, P or M, although there are some other first letters. See this site: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/
These Extracted entries were extracted from the original records by the LDS. Other records on the IGI are from Patron submissions (records submitted by anyone ) and can be relaible or just guesses.
It is normally best to check the records (especially any submitted records) against the originals (on Scotlands People, for example). However, this can be quite expensive if there are large families and it's up to you. It is nice to see the original BMDs though :)
I'm not sure if any of your ancestors would appear before 1855 because the entries are, in the main, taken from Church of Scotland records.
I'm still trying to find the Drummonds in the 1891. I'll report back but need to go off this afternoon.
Good luck
Gadget :)
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Hi again
Here's an interesting one. It looks as if it could well be your grandfather's father and his parents:
1851
North Bridgend, Crieff, Perthshire
District 342 ED 1 Page 19/20
Alexander Dewar, 71, Weaver - cotton, b. Crieff
Mary, wife, 74, b. Crieff
James, son, 36, Carter, b. Crieff
Alexander Drummond, lodger, 47, basketmaker, b. Gatehouse of Fleet, Gallowayshire (Kirkcudbrightshire)
Janet Drummond, lodger,, 52, b. Greenlaw, Berwickshire
Janet Drummond, lodger, 21, dressmaker, b. Annan, Dumfriesshire
**Alexander Drummond, lodger, 12, Basket maker, b. Dunkeld, Perthshire
James Stewart, lodger, 19, brushmaker, b. Elgin, Morayshire
I have quite a bit of info on Kirkcudbrightshire as my ancestors were from there :)
Gadget
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Maybe this is them on the 1841:
36 Gartmore, Port of Mentieth Perthshire
District 342 ED 1a Page 6
Alexander Drummond, , 35-39, stoneware merchant
Janet Drummond, 40-44
Jane Drummond, 15-19
Janet Drummond,11
Helen Drummond, 8
Alexander Drummond, 2
All down as being b. Perthshire (or more correctly 'born county' ) This is very general in the 1841 and might well not be correct. Also note that in the 1841, those over 15 were grouped into 5 year age bands - thus 15 = 15-19, 20=20-24, etc. I've adjusted for this here.
Gadget
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How do we go about finding if they are? Cannot seem to work the extract thing!
Jim
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Hi Jim - not sure what you mean :-\
Here are Alexander and Janet in the 1861. Obviously the children were elsewhere:
Waddell Land, Cumbernauld, Dumbartonshire
District 495 ED 8 Page 23
Alexander Drummond, 56, Basketmaker, b. Crieff
Janet, wife, 63, basket maker's wife, b. Berwickshire
As they lived beyond 1854, their deaths will be on Scotlands people if they died in Scotland. This will give their parents' names and, in Janet's case, her maiden name.
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I think it might help if you do a chart something like this:
Alexander Drummond (circa 1805 - ?) m Janet ?
(Children ~ )
I
Alexander Drummond (circa 1839 - ?) m Mary McPhee/McFie
Children ~ )
I
Alexander Drummond (1874-1941) m 1898 Christina McCallum
(Children ~ )
I
Your father
I
You
I'll try to find out about the Janet and the parents that we've not found yet.
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If it's any help, i think the older Drummonds, Alexander and Janet, died 1861-1871 as I can't see them on the 1871 census. However, none of the deaths on SP jump out at me so .........................
Gadget
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Hi again
I forgot to mention about the naming conventions that you discussed earlier. I'm not sure if Scottish travellers had a different system from the more usual Scottish one so it's for you to decide. However, the more usual form was:
Sons:
1st - after father's father
2nd - after mother's father
3rd - after father
4th - after father's eldest brother
etc.
Daughters:
1st - after mother's mother
2nd - after father's mother
3rd - after mother
4th - after mother's eldest sister
This was fairly flexible and many variations have been found (i've got instances in my own Scots ancestors). Sometimes prominent people would be named or the pattern would be flipped and I've seen some where there was no pattern whatsoever.
Also, if you'd like to copy all this out to work on on your own, it's possible to print out the whole of this topic. At the top and bottom of this page there is a Print icon. If you click on this it will bring up a window with all the messages on the topic laid out ready to print. Just print this out using your standard method .
I'll leave you to digest and explore your family now. We've gone back 200 years and it's a lot in 24 hours. If you need any more help, just yell.
Gadget
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According to the IGI ( www.familysearch.org ) , Alexander Drummond and Mary McFie had the following children:
1861 Mary - Balfron,Stirling
1863 Alexander - Callendar, Perth
1867 John - Port of Montieth, Perth
1869 James - Stralachan, Argyll
1871 Adam - Row, Dunbarton
1874 Alexander - Gargunnock, Stirling
Hiya
what was the source referene for this excerpt?
Thanks
Jim
Gadget
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Hi Jim
As I said:
According to the IGI ( www.familysearch.org )
I entered Alexander Drummond in the father's name boxes and Mary McFie in the mother's name boxes. I then selected British Isles and Scotland. All other boxes were left empty.
The list of names then came up in alphabetic order. I then gave them to you in date order.
Try it :)
Gadget
PS - I might have selected Birth/Christening as well
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Hi
I just stumbled accross this thread. I would be very intrested in speaking to you about your family. My Name is Garry McCallum and All of my Ancestors were Tinkers,Basketmakers,Spoon Makers and Tinsmiths. They all lived around the Balfron,Drymen,Stirlingshire & Dumbartonshire areas. My Family Blood line is McCallum, But while doing my research your family name Drummond has popped up a few times. I noticed that you were speaking about Alexander McCallum and Mary McFie, They are also in my family tree, he would have been my G,G, Uncle.
I would love to have a look at your tree, I have a Tree on Ancestry & One on Genes Reunited. If you send me your email I will give you access to my tree. My Email is (*)
I hope to speak to you soon.
Garry McCallum
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Hi Garry,
Thanks for your most welcome enquirey--(*) is my email.
Till now we have not been able to confirm the link with McCallum so it sounds like after 20 years looking we might have made it. Let me know what to do next.
Best regards
Jim
(James)
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Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi Jim
You now have access to my Tree. Could i have access to yours?
Garry
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Hi Jim I was hoping this post would get to you. I believe I've seen your posts on this board and other boards. Seems you are in a line of Alexander Drummond's. I believe we have similar ancestors, and would like to compare notes and family trees for the Drummond line. My connection is I believe a Helen/Ellen Drummond I have who was born in Scotland in December 1800. I believe her parents were an Alexander Drummond and a Helen Diet, Dyet, Dyatt, Dyer, or perhaps Dewar. I do have information I believe on them. After reading some of your posts it would seem possible that your Alexander Drummond who I beleive was born in 1803 would seem to be a Brother to my Helen/Ellen Drummond. My ancestor married Matthew Todd who was from Northumberland, England, and they had thier children in Scotland. For the 1841 Scotland census Matthew is a stone ware merchant, and I believe he was a traveller. Directly above him on this same census I think is your Alexander and family, and he is also a stone ware merchant. Am hoping to hear from you, and compare info. Thanks so much!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA)
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Hello ,i have just joined rootschat looking for information about my family.
I think the Archi Burke is my great grandfather my Grandmother was Mary Burke his daughter.We lived in Perth as well,small world :)
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I am looking for information about my grandmother and her family.I would like to find out when she became Mary Thomson Maybe no oficelle papers jumped the broom i think I know she was married to George Robertson and had one child Bella/Isabella church register1920 she was 19 then had 4 children with Ebenezer Thomson death26/03/1950 age 62
Bella/Isabelle or Isabella? Robertson children; John, Benjamin and Archiebald Robertson
Maggie /Margaret Thomson :Linda,Thomas and williamina Mckinlay
Williamina Townsley Thomson : Isabelle and Robert.Maki
Duncan Thomson :many children
Henry Thomson :many children
Any help would be more than welcome ,New to this :)