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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: flogged on Tuesday 17 February 09 12:48 GMT (UK)
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Would like to find more with "Freeman" back in England.
After release in WA he married Ellen Burns c1840 and raised family there,
we only have William listed abt 1874 he married Charlotte Bird of York WA and had 11 children.
(Also posted this for England)
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James Freeman's details are on
http://www.convictcentral.com/
He was transported on the Norwood and arrived in WA in June 1862. Date of trial was 1860.
FREEMAN James 6291 6years 27 years Trial at Salford in 1860 Larceny
Unfortunately there does not appear to be a marriage on the WA indexes for a James FREEMAN and Ellen BURNS only the following births.
1866 FREEMAN James with father James and mother Ellen BURNS Fremantle Reg 9511
1869 FREEMAN Lilly Elizabeth with father James and mother Helen BURNS Fremantle Reg 11859
1871 FREEMAN William with father James and mother Ellen BURNS Fremantle Reg13557
From
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-WA-CONVICT/2003-11/1068508311
FREEMAN, JAMES:
James Freeman, Convict # 6291, arrived in Western Australia on board the
"Norwood" on 9 June 1862. James was convicted of Larceny at Salford in 1860 and sentenced to transportation for six years. James is described as unmarried and a gunmaker, literate, Protestant at the time of his sentence. He received his Ticket of Leave on 23 February 1863 and his Conditional Pardon on 7 April 1866 at Vasse. James was awarded his Certificate of Freedom on 20 January 1868.
James died on 11 November 1881 at Fremantle.
Death 1881
FREEMAN James 46 years Parents Unknown
Reg 11130
Extracted record on familysearch
James FREEMAN
Baptism 24 Jul 1836 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire
Father Robert FREEMAN and mother Rebecca
Submitted record
James FREEMAN
24 Jul 1836 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Marriage Ellen BURNS
4 May 1868 Fremantle, Western Australia, Australia
The parents names should be noted on James' marriage certificate. The marriage took place according to the submitted information, two years after the birth of James and Ellen's first child in 1866.
I couldn't see him on the 1851 census. I will have a more thorough search later. Someone else may be able to locate him.
K.
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Hi Keengeni, we have the marriage cert with James Freeman and Ellen McGrath, this is correct, Ellen was married before, James' father is written in as James Freeman and occupation for both was "gunsmith" Ellens birth name was "Burns" they were married at Congregational chapel Fremantle, James arrived 9 June 1862, convict number 6291, he was allowed ticket of leave on 23 Feb 1863 (8 months after) and conditional pardon 7 April 1866 while at the Vasse (now called Busselton) Complete freedom on 20 Jan 1868.
A gunsmith by profession but did not work that trade while in Australia.
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I detailed the info I found as you have listed various dates of arrival for James - 1860, 1861 and 1862 and on your other requests.
The submitter on familysearch appears to have assumed that this is your James FREEMAN. I tend to ignore submitted information. Submitted info at times, seems to be lots of guess work and assumptions.
I see you have had a response to your request in England.
K.
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Not sure where I got 1861 from, perhaps I looked at his convict number 6291 upside down, but yes, we have it as convicted in 1860 and arrival Fremantle in 1862, on his marriage cert it has "Gunsmith" also has his father as James, also a gunsmith.
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Just to save another person searching, there is a similar request here.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,361663.0.html
K.
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yes, I have one set for Australia and one for England.
Details in IGI;
James Freeman
AFN: 1Z79-9W4
Born 1835- Expiree Salford England
Death 11 Nov 1881 Fremantle WA
Wife Ellen Burns McGrath
Marriage 4 May 1868 Fremantle WA
Ellen was married prior to James hence the name McGrath,
her birth name was BURNS.
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Only posted the links to save duplicate searching which can be time consuming ;D Only trying to help you and others searching as well.
K.
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I understand Keengeni, but some people do as I use to, stay in one seat and wonder why no answers.
Just modified last with detail from IGI familysearch.
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Flooged the record is from the Ancestral File on familysearch not International Genealogy Index.
IGI does have submitted records but it is mainly extracted parish records.
If you search IGI there is no birth for 1835 for James FREEMAN
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
Not trying to be picky but feel it is necessary to be accurate with sources. Do you think it is possible the the author of the record as assumed that James was born in 1835 in Salford, the information being taken from is convict record and death record?
K.
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Keengeni, the papers I have are copies of a copy or copy of the original, but of purchase dates 1981, I do understand that not everything one looks at on a site can be true or accurate, however, the notes written are much older and in appearence of at least 50 yrs with the typing and aged look of the paper.
One here in the site did make comment that he could not find a local James Freeman in Salford, but did site 2 " J Freeman" in lockup from Ireland at Salford, but I can only go by the marriage cert with James being the name of his father and also being a gunsmith. I only have the family record and his family life after arrival in Australia, there is no name attached to these notes for me to contact. I will have a look at something else, at top of the page in the notes it says, "Dictionary of WA Vol 3" that might be an official paper held on record.
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Flogged a bit confused here. The extracted records on IGI are transcribed from Parish records and yes you certainly can't believe all you see on the internet but I wouldn't place extracted parish records in that basket. Submitted trees yes.
I am not trying to discredit what you have in your notes but there does not appear to be an extracted parish record for a James FREEMAN was born c1835 with father James at Salford, Lancashire.
Do you not agree there could be some guesswork in the Ancestral file by the submitter?
I would certainly agree that James FREEMAN would be in prison at the time of the 1861 census as he was tried in 1860 and transported in 1862.
Hopefully your other request will give you a better result.
K.
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Hi,
My great great grandfather was James Freeman. Lineage James/William/Rubina/Terrance/Kim. In your post you say you have a marriage certificate for James. What would be the possibility of a copy of that sent to my email address? I would very much appreciate that if possible.
Much appreciate Kim Dawson
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Hi Kim and welcome to Rootschat. ;)
This post is now a few years old and "Flogged" the OP hasn't been online for nearly two years. However if they still have the same email address then they will get a notification of your post.
Just as an aside I just went and checked the 1851 census for Salford Lancashire with James FREEMAN as my search person. There is one James and he is listed as a 44 yo old Pensioner (Chelsea)? Born 1807 and his wife Katherine 30 born 1820. Both are listed as born Ireland.
Don't put your email address on this forum it is outside of rules but if you make three posts you can use the Personal Message system and safely use that way. So a reply and one more post and you can talk directly to "Flogged"
Cheers
Neil
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Hi Neil,
Thank you so much for your helpful reply. Ok great I understand about the email thing now thankyou. Thanks for looking up the census for me however that isnt him. He was born in, we think 1835 because he was 27 when he came out on the Norwood ship in 1862.
Well hopefully I will get a reply from flogged.
Thanks once again for your help much appreciated...Kim
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Hello, yes I am still here and today 13 Aug 2014 is the 1st email notice I have ever had out of here, I use to visit everyday to see if there were updates but saw nothing..
kimieoz, unfortuneatly I do not have the record at hand, we have moved house a couple of times and now all out stuff is in storage units, bit hard to get on to if you know what I mean.
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Hi There,
Thanks for getting back to me. Oh no problems about the certificate. I am thinking of going to the State Library to do some more investigation on James. I might find some snippets of things about his character and what daily life was like for him. He died rather young at 46 do you know the cause of death? My father Terrance was adopted and his mother was Rubina Lottie Freeman the 12 child of William and Charlotte Bird. So until now we have never know anything about this line of our family. HOw are you connected to the Freemans?
Thanks Kim
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kimieoz; yes they had a big family, I have the name Lottie but didn't know of the Rubina part, from memory James was a gunsmith before transportation, when he got his ticket of leave he was allowed to go back to being a gunsmith, please don't go on those actual words I lot the family tree details when PAF5 stopped being a brogram, it was suggested I get Legacy to to open the file but the Legacy swiped it all off the disc and now it's all gone so I have to start it all over again.
If I may ask, Are you in WA or elsewhere?
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Kim try searching the digitised newspapers on TROVE. Quite a lot about a James FREEMAN, boarding house keeper who died in 1881.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper
Cando
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There will also be a fair bit in trove on the Reynolds and Birds, Selina Reynolds Bird (2nd) she made a name for herself with horses. Reynolds made thier name in the Avon Valley with cattle, three women of the family are seen as the 1st women pioneers of WA, names are not with me, however it is an interesting story to follow as the family leave the area and go north to Robourne where William FREEMAN was Police Sarg and would travel to the "Boab Prison Tree" near Derby to pick up the prisoners and transport them back to Roebourne court 1900 period.
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While I was searching today 1851 census I came across a Rebacca Freeman and this meant nothing until I re-read some of the earlier posts.
Note:
Extracted record on familysearch
James FREEMAN
Baptism 24 Jul 1836 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire
Father Robert FREEMAN and mother Rebecca
In the census she is shown as a WIDOW so Robert could have died earlier and MAY be the father of James. That is if he was even born in England.
Good luck in your search
Neil
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Neil; Top find, I have never been able to find his parents.
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we have the marriage cert with James Freeman and Ellen McGrath, this is correct, Ellen was married before, James' father is written in as James Freeman and occupation for both was "gunsmith" Ellens birth name was "Burns" they were married at Congregational chapel Fremantle,
Extracted record on familysearch
James FREEMAN
Baptism 24 Jul 1836 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire
Father Robert FREEMAN and mother Rebecca
According to the Bishop's Transcripts, Robert was a labourer of Circus Street.
Cando
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Thanks so much for all your information. Just to throw a spanner in the works could James have been Irish? and not born in England at all. Seeing there is discrepancies with his parents names, maybe the baptism record is not the James we are looking for?
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Freeman name is of both Ireland and England, so will have to look through that one.
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Hi all, newbie here. Anyways Kimmieoz, James is my great great great grandfather. I also descend from William, but am uncertain which of his children begat my grandmother, Pearl Ida. I *think* it may have been Herbert. My mum, Annette, was also adopted out, so all this history greatly interests me, I just have so little time to put into researching it. I found it interesting that you bought up the Irish possibility - I always thought we were of some Irish decent, however I was advised most likely Scottish not Irish.
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Hi Flogged,
I haven't been on here for awhile and I didn't reply to your last email. Yes Im in WA, Mandurah. Have been very ill with 2 types of cancer would you believe, on the mend now.
I have some information about James Freeman. I have obtained his death cert and he did diedof Phthisis (pronounced tiesis), it's wasting away from Tuberculosis. Gee he must have had a hard life. A convict, sent to Vasse, probably hard labour and I would say got TB way before it eventually took his life at 46.
I have emailed the Lancashire Archives in England about obtaining his conviction records and this is the reply I got......
Thank you for your email. We do have some records of the courts of quarter sessions in Lancashire, including order books and calendars of prisoners. These records are not name indexed and the registration number you have supplied will not help to locate the records. We do not offer a research service as resources are limited but we do have a list of local record agents who will do research for a fee. I have attached it to this reply and you can also find it on our website.
Our quarter sessions order books and petitions can now be found online on Ancestry, so if you have a worldwide subscription you can see the records on there.
So if we want this info we either pay someone to get it or go on Ancestry to try and locate it. I dont have a membership, so maybe I should get one.
Did I also mention in an earlier email the his son William who became a policeman in Carnarvon did have actually 16 children not 11 as thought. Here is a list of the names of the children.....
Sydney, Lilly, William, Ellen, Selina, Herbert, Edith, Samuel, Aubrey, Alfred, Maler, Rubina (my grandmother), Lorne, Avril, Ronald and Leonard. I have their birth and death dates too.
Other information I have is that he ran a boarding house in the cappuccino strip, west end, on the bend after his pardon .
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These seem to be the order books and Petitions referred to by the Lancashire Archives , and are under the heading:
Lancashire, England, Quarter Session Records and Petitions, 1648-1908
Order books, 1859 (no detailed date shown)
James FREEMAN, appearing in Court in the custody of the Keeper of the House of Correction at Salford aforesaid and having, at this Session been convicted of Larceny from person and having been previously convicted of Felony, this Court doth order and direct that the said James FREEMAN be kept in penal servitude for the term of six years pursuant to the statute in such case made and provided.
Also a statement that the cost of prosecuting James FREEMAN in 1859 was 9 pounds, 3 shillings and 6 pence
There is a bill presented by the Prosecutor for his work (Salford February Quarter Session, 1860) in the trial of James FREEMAN and James WILCOCK for the crime of "larceny from the person".
And two others for the prosecution of James FREEMAN for the crime of "larceny from the person", dated Salford October Session, 1860
England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892 have these records:
15 February 1860 at Salford
James FREEMAN, larceny from a person, before convicted of a felony - acquitted
22 October 1860 at Salford
James FREEMAN, larceny from a person, before convicted of a felony - 6 years
I can't find a record of the "Felony" that he was convicted of prior to these mentions unless it is the 1859 court appearance but there's no record that I can see on this register of the 1859 charge.
Judith
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Judb,
Wonderful! Thankyou so much for that information. How are you connected to James?
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Not connected at all, kimieoz - I just enjoy genealogical research and help out when I can. Many kind people have helped me with my searches so it's nice to be able to help someone else. ;D
Judith
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Oh yes it can be very interesting. Just doing a bit of research now on James when he had his boarding house on high street in Fremantle. Over the years he got himself into a bit of trouble with the law still. Have got clippings through Trove.
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I have found James Freeman aka Hoyland/Hyland on the criminal register and the transportation register, I believe this is your man, however the files are too big to upload on this site.
If you PM with your email address I will send you what I just found.
I've no personal interest in James either, but I've been researching convicts transported just lately and thought I'd provide a random act of genealogical kindness as so many people on here have helped me :) (RAOGK)
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The records I have are from 1860. Interestingly one says he was transported once before.