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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: Gadget on Tuesday 17 February 09 21:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi All
One of my brick walls!
This is not really a look up, more a discussion to see if I've missed anything and if there are any other avenues that I might explore. I've tried to give a brief summary of the info but it is rather long and hope that you'll read it with patience.
Various cousins have been researching this line from the 1950s and possibly before. We have used
all the sources that we can find including lettters, wills, family bibles, kirk sessions minutes,
newspapers, prison/legal docs. and the usual OPRs, MIs, BMDs, censuses, etc.
John Burgess m Jean Spalding - I have a theory that this was a second marriage. The first might
have been to an Agnes Watret in Holywood, DFS.
Known Children ~
Mary - b.c. 1775 -1849 (from 1841 census and death cert/gravestone) Died Wales, aged 75
Thomas - b.c.1777 - 1813 (from gravestone. Army record (NA) suggests b. Kirkmahoe, DFS but
nothing found) Died Kells, aged 35
*James b.c. 1779 - 1856 (from censuses, death cert and gravestone) Died Wales, aged 77
Samuel Spalding - not sure about this one- see below!
John - b.c. 1884 - before 1876 (info from Canadian descendants) Died Canada
William b. 1789 - 1823 (info from baptism record, probate/etc., newspapers, letters and bible) Died
New York
Jean b. 1792 -1844 (inf from baptism record and bible) Died Canada
*(re James (my line) - I have found a possible baptism for James in Holywood, February 1779.
parents - John Burgess and Agnes Watret. Investigations so far cannot locate this James other
than the one above. Holywood is adjacent to Kirkmahoe (see Thomas). I have pencilled/italicised in
this record into my tree. His children were: Jean, Margaret, Mary,William, Menie, John, Ann P
Smith, Helen, Johan, James, Agnes (wife's parents William and Margaret Wife's name - Jean))
The first recorded info is from the baptism of William. At that time they were living at Nether
Gairloch, a farm in the SW of the parish of Kells. At some stage after the baptism of Jean in 1792 they
seem to have moved to Longcroft, close to Kells old parish kirk - marriages of children and
baptisms of grandchildren recorded there. Also, this location is mentioned in the Kells KSMs.
Longcroft is on one of the 18th century maps but not on any modern ones. Between 1813 and 1815
at least some of the family moved to Nether Dullarg, a large hill farm/ferm toun in the parish of
Parton. John died there in 1815 and it appears that son James took over the lease. Jean Spalding
died at Midlaggan (not far away from Nether Dullarg) in 1819. I surmise that this was where
daughter Mary and her husband George Carson were living at that time. Info on John and Jean's
deaths is from the MI in Kells. I think that this was erected by Mary after the death of her husband
in 1833. The inscription reads:
To the memory of
John Burgess who died at Dullarg parish of Parton 11 July 1815 aged 78 years
Jean Spalding his spouse who died Midlaggan parish of Parton 4 November 1819 aged 86 years
Thomas Burgess their son who died at Longcroft 19 March 1813 aged 35 years
Angnes Dunchee his spouse who died 14 February 1813 aged 25 years
George Carson Sergt Royal Artillery and son in law to john Burgess who died Castle Douglas 7
May 1834 aged 61 year.
I think that the age given for Jean is wrong - she would have been 56 & 59 when William and Jean
were born.It is more likely that the stonemason made a carving error and Jean was either 66 or 68
when she died, suggesting a birthdate of between 1751 and 1753. Alternatively, Mary may have
given the age that she would have been when the stone was erected (1834), which would give abirth
date of circa 1748. It is possible that Jean and William could have been children of one of the
others but no evidence of this. From Mary's will, it would appear that she was unable to have
children and 'adopted' Thomas's son when Thomas and Nancy died.
Dullarg was owned in the late 17th century-18th century by the Spalding family (a Samuel Spalding
was minister of Parton 1692-1712. The Fasti has him b. in Ireland of Scottish stock. Educated
Edinburgh and m. Elisabeth Broun, the heiress of Shirmers - including Dullarg) . In 1756, there is a will for a Margaret
Spalding of Nether Dullarg (m WilliamWaterson). Her brother, Samuel contested it. His brother was
Alexander Spalding who m. Jean Gordon of Holme, Balmaclellan. Ref in Dumfries KSM of 1774 to
Alexander asking for permission to be buried in the plot of his recently deceased brother, Samuel. Added - from the SP burial records, Samuel was buried in Dumfries 11th Feb 1774
So far, I've not found the grave.Samuel, Alexander, and by inference, Margaret, were children of
Samuel Spalding and Elisabeth Broun (Fasti) . None of Alexander and Jean Gordon's children fit my
Jean Spalding, which leaves the possibility of Margaret or Samuel but no documentary evidence.
Alternatively, she might not have a connection with the family. The current Kirk Sessions clerk for
Parton believes that there must have been a link though.
contd/..........................
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contd...............
Having exhausted lines of enquiry on all of the other children, I've turned my attention to Samuel to
see if there are any clues there.
Samuel Spalding Burgess and Euphemia Coltart m before 1808
Known Children ~ (Kells or Balmaclellan)
1808 Jane
1810 William
1812 Agnes McMichael
1816 Jane
Sept 1823 Thomas (from Canadian censuses and death cert - also a bpt in Kells in Oct 1823 but
assigned to Samuel's brother John)
1841 -
Euphemia living in Pluckmain,Kells, aged 45-49
A possible for Samuel in Blackridge, Balmaclellan as Samuel Spalding, 45-49, MS b. County
I have a copy of a letter written from his brother John in Canada to his brother James in Wales in
1841 suggesting that Samuel had had some kind of problem but that they had no sympathy and
referred to his son William as going off to US and leaving the family - the behaviour that you would
expect from a son of Samuel.
Canadian cousins thought that Samuel died but no proof.
Euphemia and the rest of the family went to Canada in late 1840s/1850 - before the 1851 census.
I have found a death cert for a Samuel Spalding Burgess, June 1858, Sanquhar, Dumfriesshire:
Described as a stay maker, aged 80, Parents -----------Burgess, farmer (deceased) and
----------------m.s. Spalding (deceased). The informant was Grace Burgess, widow.
On the 1851, I've found a likely pair in High Street, Sanquhar, although the age is way out but fits with the 1841.
Samuel Spalding, 58, stay maker, b. NK, Ireland
Grace Spalding, wife, 40, staymaker, b.Borgue, Kirkcudbrightshire
So, is this Samuel the son of John Burgess and Jean Spalding or not? If it is, it suggests that he
might have been b. Ireland. Alternatively, was he the son of just Jean Spalding. None of the other
children gave Ireland as a birthplace on any of the censuses.
Are James and his sibs all descended from the same family? I seem to be stuck at John Burgess and Jean Spalding just like all the other descendants!
Grateful for any ideas, comments, etc.
Thanks for reading all this :)
Gadget
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Gadget, how can I resist adding my tuppence worth? We have discussed the possibity of a link between my James Burgess family and yours before, and were not able to make a connection. However, I am still convinced that there is one, although it may be further back than the more easily accessible records suggest. Now you have thrown a Coltart into the mix, and that has got me going again ::) Coltarts are in my direct line, although back in the mid 1700's to 1800's is where I stopped looking.
A recap, because it was some time ago, and I have since added my James' likely parents. Unfortunately I have not been able to find more about them - yet - but I was wondering if you have come across a Francis in your research and process of elimination?
Francis Burgess b. abt 1754 and Jannet Stott b. abt 1780 (he is at Muiryard, Borgue, 1841 census - place of birth not helpful, just says 'Kirkcudbrightshire', and the he died a pauper so unlikely to have a will!)
Children:
Mary b. abt 1801
James b. 9 Oct 1803 Kelton
Ann b. abt 1816
James married Helen Shaw and was a Blacksmith in Rhonehouse. He died in Kelton 8/12/1866. I won't include the rest because I don't think they will provide any clues.
I will take a closer look at all the information you have provided, and see if any new avenues open up .....previously I didn't have all that. Sorry I have no great insights to offer now, but after all that work you deserve an acknowledgement and I am interested in seeing what other responses your post gets!
Scatza
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I'm still not convincesd, Scatza, although I'm keeping my options open :)
I do recall looking at a Francis at one stage but decided that he wasn't one of my Burgesses.
Re my puzzle - a PS really - I have searched for Spalding variations - Spadie, Pauling, etc. There is a family in Wiltshire who eventually inherited Holm from Alexander Spalding. Alexander's daughter Jean (b.c. 1750) married a James(?) Fraser in Edinburgh.
Gadget
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O.K., but I'm not conceeding - yet! Is it just serendipidy that James Burgess and Jane Corson in Parton had daughters named Ann Smith Burgess b. 6 Oct 1822, and Helen Burgess b. 20 June 1825? They are the next generation to my Helen Shaw Burgess and Ann Burgess, who was my James' sister. I have no other Ann in my tree, only in my Burgess line. Maybe my James' father, Francis, was a bother of your James' father? Do you remember why you excluded that possibility?
I checked out Euphemia Coltart, and was more surprized by this - none of the Euphemia's on LDS seem like a remote possibility in my Coltart line :o
I'm probably distracting you from your original reason for posting this thread, but hey, at least I'm interested!
Scatza
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Hi Scatza :)
Thank you for your interest.
I am really trying to find information on John Burges(s) b.c. 1737 and his wife Jean Spalding b. <I know not when> So far, many of my relatives and I have tried to find them by searching numerous records (including Kirk Sessions Minutes in Edinburgh), newspapers and personal documents.
If you think that there is a connection between your Francis and this family, it might help if you could establish his parentage.
Burgess is not all that uncommon a name in Kirkcudbrightshire and Dumfriesshire. I have got the MIs for all the parishes in KKD and, although there are numerous inscriptions, only one is definitely one of my ancestors'.
In the 1841 census, there are 49 Burgess and 6 Burges in KKD. Of these less than 10 are definitely my relatives. By 1851, there are 44 and 10 resp. and even fewer are definitely related to me. By 1861, they have all gone - to Wales, Canada, USA and Liverpool.
I would be interested in any leads that help me get more information on John Burgess and Jean Spalding.
Regards
Gadget
PS Her name was Jean/Jane Carson - Corson was one of those many clerical and/or transcription errors that one finds in the OPRs
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Well, you seem to have covered all possible sources that might reveal more about your Jean Spalding, and I can't think of a single other one that might help ??? I have not been able to find anything more on Francis Burgess, other than what is in the OPR's. Oh, and two more children that I found while looking at your data and generally searching around - Grizel 1799 Crossmichael and Isabella 1805 Parton. I don't think there is even an MI for him. However, his wife Jean/Jane Stott's family appear to have been in Holywood in 1795 when they married (Robert Stott and Ann Aitkin (son)). Possible matches to my lot keep cropping up on Ancestry.com in Canada (as you know two of my McMurrays went there in mid 1800's), but nothing definitive. After my James and Helen Shaw died, not of that line of Burgess' are in Scotland either. I guess there are just some things that we will never know!
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As far as I can remember there were two Burgess families in Holywood having children around 1730s- 1750s a John and a Robert. I think there was an early Grizzel b. to a John Burgess there. It might be worth following them up.
Gadget
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Gadget, I do have an idea :P If Samuel Spalding Burgess' 'behaviour' was somewhat in question, have you looked him up in jail/prison? It's intriguing that Euphemia makes no bones about being Mrs. Samuel Burgess once she arrives in Canada, so the other possibility is that Samuel just died? There are not many Canadian census entries that stress the Mrs. bit, give the husband's name rather the woman's own name, which to me suggests she might have been a widow. But you have probably checked that out already. I am more interested in the Coltart connection now than spending any more time on 'my' Burgess family per se ...... it's been years and nothing "ah ha!" has revealed itself.
Scatza
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I haven't got the full quote from the letter on my laptop but it implied that he'd gone off and deserted the family. John said that he felt sorry for Euffie and the family and if she came over, he'd give her a cow and a bit of land.
Thomas (b. 1823) worked on James's farm in the mid-late 1840s.
Gadget
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He must have run very far or changed his name - nowhere to be found, except in America? Some possibilities there, although I haven't looked at all of them. One was for a Samuel Burgess, miner, with a family, who left from Liverpool. None of the names looked familiar though.
Scatza
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Its great that you have those letters. Poor Euffie .....a cow is better than a 'dog' I suppose :'(
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Samuel didn't go with them and I have the history of the family from when they arrived in Canada.
This is the closest that I've got:
I have found a death cert for a Samuel Spalding Burgess, June 1858, Sanquhar, Dumfriesshire:
Described as a stay maker, aged 80, Parents -----------Burgess, farmer (deceased) and
----------------m.s. Spalding (deceased). The informant was Grace Burgess, widow.
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Have you seen this thread on just the decendants of Thomas:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,356098.0.html
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Hi Gadget, since it's a new day :)
I did see your note about Samuel the staymaker - I guess the fact his wife was given as Grace kinda confused me, until you explained that he might have been a bit of a philanderer? This seems to be a very likely match given that there are not many Samuel Spalding Burgesses around at that time, and his 'behavior'!
Thank you too for the link to your discussions on the England board - I don't go there often so would have missed it. Back to the drawing board, although I have done some work on the Burgesses in Canada while looking for links to mine ..... didn't pursue yours much further when I realized that I was loosing sight of my own lot! You have so much on your Burgesses already that my chatter is just additional noise - I am interested though - Burgess, Coltart, Smith, McTaggart -Kikmahoe, Parton ......
Scatza
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Tut, I meant Canada Board ::)
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Incidentally, Scatza, do you have the link of the reference to Mrs Samuel Spalding, please?
Gadget
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Gadget,
I'm not sure if the mean the Spaldings, or Samuel Spalding Burgess married to Euphemia Coltart and then possibly Grace? If you mean the latter, then I was referring to what you posted re him possibly being a staymaker, and also what you posted regarding a possible death for him. If you mean Euphemia Coltart Burgess in Canada (Mrs. Samuel Burgess as she is referred to), then it was the 1850/51? census for New Brunswick. Samuel and Euphemia are also named as the parents of one of their children who married in Canada in the marriage registration ..... can't remember offhand which one, but if you mean any of these let me know and I'll dig deeper ....
Sctaza
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But they didn't go to New Brunswick as far as I know - they went to stay with John in Toronto and then to William's in Bruce County. . I suppose they could have been there temporarily after the crossing.
My cousins in Canada have sent me the info from Ontario.
are you sure that you've got the correct family?
I'll go check it out - I do have full access to Ancestry.
Gadget
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Just checked - it was Bentick, Grey County, Ontario (West)
It is the correct family.
Gadget
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You got it. Great. I only remembered the New Brunswick form of this census off-hand, thats why I asked you to clarify who you were referring to :)
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Yes - cousins sent me the details of that about 3-4 years ago. I hadn't seen the image before though.
I'm trying to trace her in-laws now.
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Good morning, Gadget,
This is my first posting so be gentle if I don't follow the myriad instructions, warnings and procedures of this forum.
I can't help push your search beyond the Spalding-Burgess connection, but I have been doing some research recently for a friend whose relatives are descendants of the above couple.
John BURGESS (b. abt. 1784, Kirkcudbrightshire, d. 1871-76, Peel County, Ontario, Canada) and his wife Jean /Jane McDOUGALL (b. abt. 1791, Scotland, d. March 7, 1879, Peel County, Ontario) are my friend's connections.
It's possible I have access to some morsel that might be of use to you (and maybe vice versa). Would you prefer to follow up on this offline, or is it required to keep everything public?
Looking forward to your reply.
showart
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Hi showart :)
Are they Canadian by any chance?
I've had contact with some of John and Jean's descendants in Canada for a 5 or so years now - in Hamilton and in Alberta. They passed on quite a few letters.
You can't mention any living people by name on the site or give your e-mail.
The best thing is to make a couple more posts on this thread and then you can send me a Personal Message (PM)
Regards
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Thank you for your reply, and thanks for the heads-up on having to post three messages and click my ruby shoes three times before the Wiz lets me deliver a Personal Message to you.
Is my friend Canadian? If that's what you meant, yes she is. She traces her line from Georgina BURGESS, daughter of John BURGESS and Jean McDOUGALL. Georgina was born about 1826, Kirkcudbrightshire (christened March 10, 1826, Balmaclellan) and died about 1898, Ontario.
Georgina married William LAWSON (b. abt. March 20, 1832, Ontario, died abt. 1908? Ontario). Their date of marriage is still unknown.
So, only one post to go! What else would you like to know that could speed this process??
showart
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I think that I have some photos somewhere of Georgina's descendants.
Didn't they move to London?
Gadget
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PS
Your friend will be related to the two other people that I mentioned. I think Georgina was probably born in Canada because John and Jean left KKD in 1826. I have ref to them in a book somewhere and I'm sure Georgina wasn't listed.
Have you read my other thread on the family - descendants of John's brother/step brother, Samuel:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,356098.0.html
Gadget
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Good morning, Gadget,
I believe the BURGESS-LAWSON litter set up shop mostly in Grey County, Ontario, specifically Bentinck Twp., Glenelg Twp., and environs. Perhaps subsequent generations lived in London (Ont.). I have tried to concentrate my efforts initially on my friend's main line so I can't say for sure yet.
showart
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Hi again,
If I were a betting man, I'd wager that Geogina was born in Scotland. Using the 1852 and 1881 censuses, Georgina was listed in both instances as having been born in Scotland.
If indeed she was christened in Balmaclellan, Kirkcudbright, March 10, 1826 (and I must admit I took that from another website), she could have been born several weeks earlier and still been part of the family's emigration to Canada after sailing conditions improved in April and May of that year. I have been able to narrow the date of arrival to only 1826-28, based on the birth dates of Georgina and her sister Anne (Nichola Anne?), who was born in Canada in 1828. Do you know of a sailing date for the family in 1826?
showart
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I found this discussion on a google search while looking for info on Ontario Burgesses. I am connected to John Burgess b. 1816 son of John Burgess and Jean McDougal. John Burgess b. 1816 married Mary (Stoddart) Ramage in Toronto Ontario. The Ramage and Burgess families had a connection that seems to stem from Scotland.
Mary Stoddart was born in Wiston and Roberton near Crowfordjohn, Lanarkshire. I am interested in conversing with anyone else with info on this line.
John Burgess died in Richview, Peel County, Ontario. He was a postmaster there.
Thanks.
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Hi and welcome :)
I'll PM you my e-mail.
See the other thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,356098.0.html
Also - message for showart - I checked my records and Georgina was b. 26 Feb 1826 in Balmaclellan. I think they crossed over in June 1826 - info buried somewhere. I found it online in a listing from an early book on immigrants to Canada but although I've just searched on the same website, I can't find it :-\
Gadget
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As a new member I don't have the ability yet to retrieve personal messages.
I can however, continue a dialogue on this forum about the Burgess family of Ontario.
There is a pioneer cemetery in Ontario called, Chinguacousy Township, E Side of Torbram Rd, N of Steeles Ave . Gravestones were transcribed in 1974 before they were removed and replaced by a plaque.
Names recorded are: Burgess, Burkholder, Cunnington, Ewing, Lindsay, Mercer, Ramage, Stoddart, and Willocox.
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The cemetery cited was called the Grahamsville Old Methodist Cemetery and was located on Lot 2 Concession 6 East. Chingaucousy Twp., Peel County, Ontario.
Today all there is is a plaque with the names of those recorded on the original stones. The original stones were supposedly removed by the city of Brampton, Ontario and stored but several Stoddart descendants have tried for two decades to locate them through the city of Brampton without success.
Presumaby the bones of those interred remain. As of ten years ago when I visited the site nothing had been built over them but that event may be inevitable. Land prices in the area are skyrocketing.
This is on the edge of the city of Toronto where little vacant land remains.
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Hello again
I received your e-mail and will send you some detailed info over the next few days. This is mainly from paper files so I'll need to type it up.
The names Ramage, Ewing and Stoddard are certainly familiar.
I'm not clear whether you are a descendant of John Burgess or of the Stoddards. I don't have as much info on the non-Burgess families - only the 'married in' ones but I do have some dates, etc.
I am descended from John' snr's brother James who remained in the UK. Much of my early information on the Canadian Burgesses came from John's descendants in Canada which I've checked for accuracy over the last few years.
Gadget
PS - now you've posted 3 times, you'll be able to PM me on this site as well.
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HI Gadget,
I am a descendant of the Stoddarts but my ggg grandfather John Stoddart's sister was married to John Burgess b. 1816, the brother of your James b. 1819.
All of the data I have found so far on him (John b. 1816) shows his wife as being Mary Ramage and doesn't note her maiden name of Stoddart. She was a widow of James Ramage when she married John Burgess.
There is a Burgess researcher in Edmonton, Alberta who had posted some information years ago on my line of Burgesses but I have been unable to locate a current email address for him.
Your James Burgess (wife Jane Murray Ramage) named a daughter Janet Padkin Burgess. My John Burgess (wife Mary Stoddart Ramage) also named a daughter Janet Padkin Burgess.
The Burgess/Ramage connection is intriguing. I would like to know who Jane Murray Ramage's parents were.
Margaret
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Ummmm. I think there's a few crossed wires. my James was b.c. 1779 and married Jean Carson in Nov 1807. His brother was John Burgess b.c. 1784 who married Jean McDougall (variations). John and Jean emigrated to Canada in 1826. My James stayed in Kirkcudbrightshire and moved to Wales in 1833.
The Edmonton researcher is a long standing contact, the descendant of John (b.c. 1784). With more information becoming available, I've since found that some of her information on a few of the Canadian descendants is incorrect. I've not been in touch for a while. I think they moved on to research another line.
I'll see what I have about Jane Murray Ramage but i don't think I have a great deal.
Regards
Gadget
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Yes, sorry, I jumped a generation. So many Johns and James names!
I meant to speak of the Burgess/McDougal clan and the two brothers of that marriage, James and John.
Anything you might have on the Ramage connection would be appreciated.
Thanks Gadget.
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It will have to come in bits and pieces, I'm afraid.
First, I have John Burgess (b.1816, Kells - 13 July 1886, Richview, peel Co) marrying Mary Ramage (b.1808, Scotland - 16 Nov 1881, Toronto, Peel Co).
They married by licence on 16 March 1841 at St Andrews Church, Toronto. Mary was a widow, of Gore. They had two children - John (1841-1843) and Janet padkin (1845-1849)
That seems to be all I have on Mary. I wonder if it's worth you putting up a separate query on the Canadian Board to see if anyone can find out about Mary's previous husband.
Gadget
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Have you got Mary's parents as Philip Stodart and Janet Padkin?
If there is a connection between her and Jane, it might be worth checking up on this pair.
Gadget
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I have Mary Stoddart's parents as James and Elizabeth (?) but that is speculation. Mary Stoddart and my ancestor John Stoddart are presumed to be sibblings because they are buried in the same very small cemetery and originated in the same area of Scotland. They may have been cousins which would give them different parents.
Philip Stoddart and Janet Padkin would be a logical option for Mary. Do you have anthing on that couple?
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Just looking them up - if she was b. Wiston and Roberton in 1802 (bpt 16 Dec) then they are her parents (on SP from the OPRs) This fits with her age at death.
They have the following daughters b. W & R from IGI:
1797 - Janet
1799 - Helen
1802 - Mary
Gadget
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What date of birth do you have for John Stoddart?
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They married by licence on 16 March 1841 at St Andrews Church, Toronto. Mary was a widow, of Gore. They had two children - John (1841-1843) and Janet padkin (1845-1849)
Gadget
Just reviewed my earlier posting. I think the name of her daughter confirms her mother as Janet Padkin, doesn't it :)
Gadget
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John was born Feb 14 1792 Midlothian. Married 29 April 1811 Margaret Lindsay at St. Cuthberts, Edinburgh. He died July 9 1854 in Toronto Township, Ontario.
That info on Mary is huge for me and my fellow Stoddart family researchers. We had assumed John and Mary were siblings. Thank you so much.
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Nothing at all showing on SP for the birth/baptism in Midlothian for John in 1792. What was your source? And who do you have as his parents?
Gadget
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
How about this from SP:
Baptism - Wiston and Roberton - 21 Feb 1790 - John Stodart Parents - Philip Stodart and Janet Padkin
Think this is him and he is Mary's brother :D
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I've checked for baptisms in the OPR (SP) for children of Philip and Janet 1780-1810 in Lanarkshire
This is what I have - all Wiston and Roberton:
20 Aug 1786- Margaret (just Philip's name)
23 Feb 1788 - James
21 Feb 1790 - John
26 Feb 1792 - Weir
30 July 1794 - William
5 Nov 1797 - Janet
22 Oct 1799 - Helen
16 DEc 1802 - Mary
Gadget
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Philip Stodart married/banns Janet Padyen on 7 Sept 1785, Wiston and Roberton
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Two baptisms showing for a Janet Padkin and Padyen in Wiston and Roberton
30 Jan 1758 Janet Padkin
17 Oct 1762 Janet Padyen
Both listed as father James.No mother's name. I assume that the first one died and your Janet is the second one.
Can't see anything for a Phil* Stod*ar* :(
Gadget
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Found him :)
16 Jan 1758 Wiston and Roberton Philip Stodhart . Father - Philip Stodhart. No mother's name.
However, there is a Philip Stodhart (variations) there having children in the broad time period (1756- onwards) where the mother is Janet Weir*, so it's highly likely that she was Philip's mother.
Gadget
* given that Philip and Janet Padken's third son was called Weir!
Oh dear, you've gone now it's got interesting :(
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The only marriage that I can find for a James Pad*n at around the right time is in Montrose, Angus. It seems a long way to travel to Wiston/Roberton in Lanark but it is an outside possibility so I'll give it to you just in case. Note that the marriages in the OPRs are just for those marrying in the Church of Scotland. There were a variety of other forms of marriage that were recognised and some that were not entered/missing books. etc.
18 June 1742 Montrose, Angus
James Padkin to Helen Aitkin
I note that one of Janet Padkin/Philip Stodart's daughters was called Helen.
Gadget
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Gadget...
That's incredible! How do you do that. What is SP and OPR?
These have to be the right people, there are so many similarities.
Thank you so much.
Margaret
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Hi Margaret
OPRs are the Old Parish/Parochial Records of the Church of Scotland; the main source of baptism, marriage and burial information in Scotland pre-1855 when statutory registration came in. They only cover the established Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) records so, if ancestors were of Roman Catholic or other non-conformist faith, they wouldn't be included.
These records can be consulted at the General Records Office/National Archives in Edinburgh, the Mitchell Library in Glasgow and some of the larger records offices in Scotland. They can also be hired as film from LDS Family History Centres. Alternatively, they are available online via Scotlands People (SP) at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk on a reasonably priced credit purchase basis. Some, but not all, are online for free via the LDS website - www.familysearch.org
Gadget
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Hi again
I've just been looking for Mary Stoddart in online trees. There is one called the Ritter tree which is obviously Mary (1803, Lanark - 1881, Ontario) and has your John as her brother.
There seems to be a very major error - whoever entered it is not too good with arithmatic - her parents are given as James Stoddart (1820- 1858) and Elizabeth Lnu (no dates) another gives her mother as Elizabeth Rowan (no dates) and same father with a sister b. 1841 and a brother b. 1843.
I think the information that I've given is the most accurate.
Gadget
added - I see that you've also got one up with the same dates for her father :-\
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Gadget -
I have reviewed those ancestry oneworldtrees as well and use them cautiously. There are a lot of errors in them.
I haven't posted a tree on Ancestry but there are at least two other Stoddart researchers that have, one with the same name as me.
Thanks,
Margaret
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Will do a search for Jane Murray Rammage next :)
Do you have anything at all about her except that she married James?
Gadget
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Jane Murray Ramage b 1822 d Dec 12 1909 married James Burgess Dec 29 1843. They had 11 children and came to Canada I believe in the early 1840s.
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Yes - I've been trying to look for her death - nothing at all on any of the listings 1909 or at any time - as Burges* or Ram*age. Nothing on censuses either after James is listed as Head of Household in 1871. Mary Stoddart Burgess, who married Thomas Ivey, is supposed to have emigrated to the US in 1882. Did she go with them :-\
This information was from a family bible and a will. I don't see James death in 1875 either. This is all very strange.
I might try a request on the Canada board but I do have access to all the Ontario BMDs that are online :-\
Gadget
PS - if it was James, son of John Burgess and Jean Mcdowall, he came to Canada in 1826 with his parents.
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do you have access to the cemetery records?
James is supposedly buried in the Pioneer Cemetery, Durham, Bentinck Township, Grey County. May 1875.
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My theory is that Jane Murray Ramage was the daughter of Mary Stoddart and (James) Ramage.
Mary was b. 1802 so she would be of an age. I think I saw a marriage for her listed as 1822. The Murray name could have come from James Ramage's family line.
The names of Jane Murray Ramage and James Burgess's children were:
Mary Stoddart - Stoddart line
Thomas Spalding - Burgess line
Jane McDougal - Mcdowal line
Janet Padkin- Stoddart line
Helen Murray
James
John McDowal - Mcdowal line
James McKenzie
Robert William Ramage
Nina Annie Laurie - Mcdowal line (Jean McDowal's mother was, I think, a Laurie)
Malvina
The info that we have says that she was b. Scotland - but not sourced.
Gadget
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Had some great help from KarenM from the Canadian Board who has found her death (as Jean Murray Burgess) - Nov 1909, Oxford Co. Giving an approx birth year of 1832. Parents listed as James Ramage and Mary Stoddart.
I've just found a baptism on the OPRs (SP)
25 Feb 1828, Crawfordjohn, Lanarkshire
Janet Ramage
Parents - James Ramage and Mary Stoddart
Gadget
PS - Crawfordjohn is the next parish to Wiston and Roberton. See:
http://scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-lanark.htm
Note that Jean/Jane and sometimes Janet were used synonymously
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and a marriage :)
4 June 1824 James Ramage to Mary Stodart, Crawfordjohn, Lanarkshire
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Mary and James also had a son, Thomas Ramage bpt. Crawfordjohn on 6th March 1826.
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I'm comparing notes to what I have and may be a little while as I'm also looking after my 2 1/2 year old granddaughter today. Jean Murray Ramage b Jan 22 1832 daughter of James Ramage and Mary Stoddart. Then I have Jame Murray Ramage born 1822 married to James Burgess. I need to look closer to see if the dates could be wrong.
Back later. Thanks Gadget.
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and the final link to the Murrays:
Baptism 18 Nov 1798 James Ramage to Thomas Ramage and Jane Murray, Crawfordjohn
No sign of a baptism for a Jane or Jean, although it could have happened and be missing/not recorded.
However, if she married James Burgess in 1843, she would have only been 12. I think the 1828 date for Janet (giving an age of 15/16) is more likely. Alternatively the date of marriage might be wrong as the eldest child was down as being b. 1848.
Gadget
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Another close but not definite is that my recorded death date for Jean Murray Ramage b. 1832 is Nov 24 1909. My recorded death date for Jane Murray Ramage b. 1822 is Dec 12 1909. !!
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See my message above where I transcribe from the cert that Karen has so kindly found - the Jean one is definitely her.
Just to summarize:
Jane/Jean/Janet Murray Rammage b 1828-1831, Crawfordjohn, Lanarkshire to James Ramage and Mary Stoddart
m. James Burgess b 1819,
Mary Stoddart b. 1802, Wiston and Roberton, Lanarkshire to Philip Stoddart and Janet Padkin
m.
1. James Ramage
2. John Burgess b. 1816
(John Burgess and James Burgess were brothers; the children of John Burgess and Jean McDowall. John Burgess, snr, was my 3 x grt grandfather, James's brother)
Philip Stoddart b. 1758, Wiston and Roberton to Philip Stoddart and (probably) Janet Weir
Janet Padkin b. 1762, Wiston and Roberton, to James Padkin
Gadget
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Wonderful. Thanks so much for all your help.
Margaret
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You're welcome - it's amazing how we're all just a series of interconnected trees - the descendants of Mary Stoddart and John Burgess and Jean Ramage and James Burgess are our joint relatives!
I'm still left with trying to find the parents of John Burgess and Jean Spalding though :'( :'( :'(
Gadget - think I might have a little sulk ;D ;D ;D
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Hello
I've been wondering whether or not to add more information to this thread which is very long, informative but very interesting. The thing about 'brick walls' is that if we keep chipping away at each side we may get it to fall down - so here goes!
My own 'brick wall' is James Murray circa 1811 - 1843 or 1815 - 1843 (depending on which information is being used). He is my 3x great grand father. He married Elizabeth Shaw who was the daughter of William and Margaret Shaw (and may have been the niece of your Helen Shaw Scatza). He by all accounts was a blacksmith. He died at Green Lane which is just smack in the middle of between several parishes but ultimately at the time was part of Kelton. He is buried at Kelton Hill/Rhonehouse cemetery.
I have tried all sorts of approaches to try and find more information about him. I have investigated whether the McMichael blacksmith he was working for at the time was a distant relative (I note that some of your initial information mentioned an Agnes McMichael Gadget). I did find an MI for an ? Agnes McMichael Murray and had intended to persue it. The name Janet features very heavily in the Shaw family as does Helen by the way. This of course may be all a coincidence and may also be muddying the waters' a little but chip, chip, chip!!
J.A.
P.S. What's the betting that if we were men and could compare DNA we'd find a connection between us all?
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Hello,
I have just found this thread on Google and this is my first post, so I hope this works out. We have been in touch directly in the past and I thank you for your help. I would like to refer to your first post in this thread.
I too, am still trying to fathom out where John BURGESS and Jean SPALDING came from. With so many gaps in the local parish records for this area of Scotland, it is an uphill battle. The 1745 uprising and the problems over Covenanters during this period make records scarce. With old books like the 'Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae' coming online there is some hope that a lead may be found.
I tend to agree with you that there is a very strong likelihood that Jean Spalding is the granddaughter of Rev. Samuel Spalding and Elizabeth Brown, of Dullarg, by his eldest son Samuel, or other unknown son (if any), given that Dullarg is a pretty small community and its association with the Spaldings. But we still need that missing proof.
It is a pity Alexander Spalding of Holm's daughter, Jean, baptised in 1748 married James Fraser in 1769 in Edinburgh, as she seemed the most likely candidate!
John BURGESS's origin has been much harder to track down.
There is one thing I am curious about and that is why you are unsure of Samuel BURGESS (ca 1779-) being a brother of James (ca 1782-1856) and John (1784-bef 1876). (The latter dates from Canadian Censuses). James in his letter to his brother John in Canada dated 2 Jan 1835 says "Brother Samuel I understand, happened with sore misfortune, getting his house all burned and a good deal of his furniture,..." He is mentioned again in the letter from John to James on 28 Jan 1841, and as you pointed out indicating his "bow"(beau?) brother Samuel was most unfortunate (with broken leg) and untrustworthy. John also indicated his willingness to help Samuel's wife Euphemia.
Regarding the immigration of John Burgess and Jean McDougal and family they left Canada in 1826. Georgina was the last child born in Scotland, bapt. 10 Mar 1826 in Balmaclellan.
Here is the entry
Source Bibliography:DOBSON, DAVID. Directory of Scottish Settlers in North America, 1625-1825. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co. Volume 2. 1984. 216p.
Page: 18
"Name: John Burgess Born in Scotland in 1785
Year: 1826
Place: Canada
Family Members: Wife Jean McDowal b. 1792;
Child William b. 1809; Child Gordon b. 1811 Child Jane b. 1814; Child John b.1816; Child James b. 1819; Child Mary b. 1820; Child Thomas b. 1823; Child Georgina b.1826;
From Kirkcudbrightshire to Canada in 1826
Source Publication Code: 1640.2
Primary Immigrant: Burgess, John"
Also William Burgess (1789-1823) who was the first to travel to the New World, died in New York on 31 May 1823.
BURGESS, William, d.31 May 1823. From Kells parish, Kirkcudbrightshire. To New York and d. there. (DGH 9 July, 1823) [Dumfries and Galloway Herald and Advertiser]
A Dictionary of Scottish Emigrants to the USA Vol 2
Compiled and Edited by Donald Whyte F.H.G., F.S.G., F.S.A.Scot.
Magna Carta Book Company Baltimore, Maryland, USA 1986
I hope this helps.
Des 362
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Hi and Welcome
Yes I agree with your info but there's nothing new there. I have wills, etc from Margaret Spalding but no mention of Jean. I actually think that Jean was the illegitimate daughter of Samuel, son of Samuel - but no proof and no mention in wills or any other documentation.
I spent some days in Edinburgh a few years ago going through the Sessions Minutes for Kells but found very little except Agnes Duncie being awarded meal just before she and Thomas died and some odds and ends of my other (non-Burgess) lines up there
Very little evidence apart from Thomas being 'of Kirkmahoe' in his Army record.
Gadget
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Hi again,
I was just wondering why you are unsure of Samuel as a member of the Burgess family?
Des 362
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I didn't say that. What I am unsure about is whether he died when he did given the other evidence. I also wonder if Jean Spalding was John's second wife ,etc. As you are aware, there are more doubts than definite facts about this family.
All my doubts, research, etc. are summarised in the first few pages of this thread.
Have you seen this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,356098.0.html
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James died in 1856, aged 77 which gives a birth date of 1779 rather than 1782. I have his death cert, will and photos of the family grave in Wales. It's a double one which includes sister Mary.