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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: Kells on Wednesday 18 February 09 22:24 GMT (UK)
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I am wondering if there are any records online to trace ancestors in Armagh born this early? I have James Todd Carrick born c1799 and his wife Isabella Robinson born c1809. I know nothing of James' origins but Isabella's parents were Richard Robinson and Sophia Ruddle Todd. They lived near the Portadown area. James and Isabella and their children migrated to Australia in 1847.
Can anyone help?
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Kells,
As you thought sources are difficult this far back but as CARRICK is a fairly unusual name I had a look in the Flax Growers Register of 1796 and found a Verner Carrick in the parish of Mullaghbrack. I am not familiar with Armagh parishes but others will be.
Regards
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Thank you, I too am not familiar with the parishes but it could be a possibility.
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In your post on another thread (which is locked) you were looking for a farm called Devinney, near Portadown. Devinney (or Diviny) is not a farm it’s a townland, in the parish of Drumcree. A townland is the smallest geographical division of land in Ireland.
In the 1901 census there were 13 families living in Diviny, including 2 households with Robinsons in:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Breagh/Diviny/1031042/
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Breagh/Diviny/1031045/
Elwyn
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Thank you Elwyn,
That is great information, about Devinney being a townland which I've never heard of, and that Robinsons continued to live there, no doubt they would have some sort of family connection. One of the Robinsons that came to Australia called their farm "Devinney" , hence the assumption.
Never heard of a post being locked, I must have exceeded my quota! Pity as my most recent one was much more informative and I had hoped it would give me a better response.
Thanks,
Kells.
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Kells,
I looked in Griffiths Valuation (c 1864) and I can see Richard Robinson, Sophia Robinson and Hugh Robinson all renting properties in Diviny. You can see the properties on a contemporary map. You need to match the property numbers in the Griffiths pages eg 8A to the numbers on the map, within the correct townland. It's a bit fiddly to work with but with patience you'll find them.
www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
Re townlands, street names and house numbers are a very recent thing in Ireland. In the past, your townland was what identified where you lived. The fact that 20 or 30 other families lived there wasn't a problem. Everyone knew who lived where, a letter would be delivered based on the townland and persons name alone, and a more detailed address wasn't required. Some farms did have names but many did not, and when asked where you came from, if you were from a rural area you just gave your townland (as your ancestor clearly did).
Elwyn
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Hi,
Elwyn has described the townland system. Another means of giving a location where someone lived was the parish. A parish would be made up of a number of townlands and was more recognisable than the townland itself when away from the home area.
Regards
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It's not a matter of having a 'quota' but duplicate posts looking for the same information causes needless confusion for those trying to help. Here's the information you posted on a new thread today-
Can anyone help with this family?
Isabella Robinson born c1809, possibly a daughter of Richard or Thomas Robinson and Sophia Ruddell Todd, who also had a son Benjamin c1821. Isabella and Benjamin both came to South Australia.
Isabella married James Todd Carrick before 1830, he was born c1799. Children were David c1830, William c1830, James Todd c1831, Sophia c1837, Benjamin c1841, Jane Todd c1841, Charles Todd c1843, and Richard born in South Australia in 1848. The family emigrated in 1847 to South Australia on the "Competitor".
Unfortunately I don't know a parish but believe the Robinsons to have lived somewhere near Portadown on a farm called Devinney. I wonder if there is any connection with Sophia to James Ruddell Todd born 1783 in Seagoe parish who became a British MP?
I believe James Todd Carrick had siblings Elizabeth, who married William Dawson, and Charles Lynd Todd Carrick, and their parents might have been William Carrick and Sophia Todd. The place Richmount has been connected to them.
If anyone can help in any way I would be very grateful.
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This was intended to be an updated post with additional information to try to progress further and highlight the interconnectedness between the families. No confusion intended.
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I've been researching this Robinson line and have several newspaper notices relating to this family.
There are references to Thomas Robinson being of Richmount and of Deviny (various spellings) but I believe it's the same person.
Isabella is named as the eldest daughter of Thomas Robinson of Divenny on her 1825 marriage notice.
Mary is named as the youngest daughter of the late Thomas Robinson of Richmount on her 1840 marriage notice. Mary's only daughter was named Sophia and this Sophia's 1918 will leaves a "miniature of Ruddell Todd" to Dr James Robinson of Cardiff who was grandson of Thomas and Sophia Robinson of Deviny (son of Richard Robinson named in Sophia Robinson's will). So I'm pretty confident that Dr James Robinson (former Lord Mayor of Cardiff) was her first cousin which would (in a roundabout way) establish Thomas Robinson of Richmount and Thomas Robinson of Deviny as one and the same while also suggesting a relationship to somebody named Ruddell Todd.
Thomas Robinson of Richmount died 3 Feb 1830 aged 45.
I have no source for the maiden name of Thomas Robinson's wife Sophia. Is the name Sophia Ruddell Todd on an Australian record for one of her children?
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(grr posted a full post and lost it)
Thank you ansimi for clearing up the Richard or Thomas question. Various family websites seem to have repeated the error of Richard. Though to be honest my subs site doesn't have a marriage of either name to a Sophia Todd
An interesting side note this from one of the ''family websites'' [Some of the remaining information in this section is provided by Mrs A**** Buttfield (1994), whose relative G**** Robinson of Portadown responded to an inquiry by Mrs Buttfield published 1994 in the Ulster Gazette. G**** great-grandfather was an elder brother of Mrs Buttfield’s grandfather. It was this information that identified Sophia's husband as Thomas.
I haven't really followed this family past South Australia as they have been well documented to my project cut off date , along with the struggle with some Irish records.
I have penciled in some info - and please note I have no sources so proceed with caution- about Sophia Ruddle Todd. I have a note that says she was born in Portadown 1780 to John Ruddle and Belle Todd. I seem to recall a note suggesting Sophia was Base Born. I also have a precise date ( not sure why its precise??? ) of death 14.9.1866 Divenny
My connection is through my ex wife and son. An interesting genetic question. Have you found either the Carrick or Robinson female line to be short lived? I have noticed some early deaths - even into the 20th century - that suggest more than 19th century conditions.
I will study the other info you posted and see what I can find. Thanks once again
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Thank you for the interesting information about Thomas Robinson. I have established that the previous reference of Richard as the spouse for Sophia was in error. I have not found any further information about Thomas so this is very useful. Where were you able to find a marriage date for his daughter Isabella? Do you have details of any of the other children?
In answer to the questions about Sophia Ruddell-Todd, the information about her name initially came from the death certificate for her son Benjamin. I have traced her family further back with wills and have found her parents to be John and Bell Ruddell. John of Aghacommon died in 1790 and his will names children David, Jane, Sophia, James and Charles. David Ruddell died in Shiraz in 1832 (of the East India Company) and is the only one to have retained the name Ruddell as it was. In his will he bequeathed to his sisters Jane Todd of Portsborow and Sophia Robinson of Richmount, and his brother James Ruddell-Todd of Ballinteggart and Adelphi in London, and also Charles Todd the son of his sister Jane. The will of James Ruddell-Todd also mentions sister Sophia Robinson. Therefore my conclusion based on available evidence is that Sophia Robinson was Sophia Ruddell-Todd the daughter of John Ruddell and his wife Bell (who may have been a Todd). An executor of the will of John Ruddell was Mr James Todd. One could assume that the name Todd was added by the children as heirs of an estate? I have no further information as to why they added the Todd. They had connections as David mentions his friend and relation Major James Stuart of the Honourable Army Bengal establishment (can be found in the peerage).
It is all very interesting. I plan to purchase the will of David Ruddell of Aghacommon who is likely to be the father of John. Maybe this will help to understand the relationships further.
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I neglected to mention that James Ruddell-Todd was a director of the South Australian Company, and member for parliament.
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Thank you for the interesting information about Thomas Robinson. I have established that the previous reference of Richard as the spouse for Sophia was in error. I have not found any further information about Thomas so this is very useful. Where were you able to find a marriage date for his daughter Isabella? Do you have details of any of the other children?
As posted by ansimi - 1825. This is confirmed on my subscription site. Now I have to confirm 1809 as Isabellas birth as that makes her 16 at marriage. I like the 1829 marriage as David was born 1830. Or did James Carrick ''wait'' - need more info.
In answer to the questions about Sophia Ruddell-Todd, the information about her name initially came from the death certificate for her son Benjamin. I have traced her family further back with wills and have found her parents to be John and Bell Ruddell. John of Aghacommon died in 1790 and his will names children David, Jane, Sophia, James and Charles. David Ruddell died in Shiraz in 1832 (of the East India Company) and is the only one to have retained the name Ruddell as it was. In his will he bequeathed to his sisters Jane Todd of Portsborow and Sophia Robinson of Richmount, and his brother James Ruddell-Todd of Ballinteggart and Adelphi in London, and also Charles Todd the son of his sister Jane. The will of James Ruddell-Todd also mentions sister Sophia Robinson. Therefore my conclusion based on available evidence is that Sophia Robinson was Sophia Ruddell-Todd the daughter of John Ruddell and his wife Bell (who may have been a Todd). An executor of the will of John Ruddell was Mr James Todd. One could assume that the name Todd was added by the children as heirs of an estate? I have no further information as to why they added the Todd. They had connections as David mentions his friend and relation Major James Stuart of the Honourable Army Bengal establishment (can be found in the peerage).
It is all very interesting. I plan to purchase the will of David Ruddell of Aghacommon who is likely to be the father of John. Maybe this will help to understand the relationships further.
Thank you for that extra. If you find anymore please post it as I am interested as well. Or PM me :)
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As to other siblings the only 1 I can find was a Benjamin who is said to have emigrated in 1839.
From this blog site. https://mycarrickfamilyhistory.wordpress.com/
Shipping record I cant find any. I did find this which is most interesting and a confirmed link.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article71600655 (page 4 column 3 ) A petition to keep convicts out of SA - a snippet
Luke Veale, Richmond
Benjamin Robinson, Divenny Farm
William Hob nt, Rundle street
James M'Donald, Noarlunga
William Draper Poole, Carrington street
This talks of another brother JOHN ( possibly) but it is in Noarlunga and it says brother to Benjamin
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article27450693
So if correct - that is Isabella , John and Benjamin
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Benjamin was an early resident of Noarlunga before leaving for Victoria. Isabella came out well after her brother, in 1847. I also saw the reference to John Robinson but cannot trace him. I wondered about any other siblings in Ireland too.
The blog you referenced is by a distant cousin of mine with whom I share information. I've worked on it quite a bit over the last year or so, and also had my father's DNA tested for genetic genealogy purposes (he is the great great grandson of Isabella Carrick nee Robinson). I have made one firm Carrick connection but nothing leading to the other side as yet.
I've been using Find My Past and PRONI for most of my research. FindMyPast had the attached record which has the date of marriage for Isabella as 1825. I think the 1809 birth date may have been loosely based on an age given at death.
I'm happy to continue correspondence privately if you'd like, then I can supply more of the documents I have found.
I am interested in the information Ansimi had about Mary Robinson too.
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Thank you for explaining Benjamin and the sourcing the name. Do you have a birth year reference for him?
Sophia Robinson (nee Ruddell Todd?) left a will that names sons Hugh, Richard, and James who were all still in the area. One of Hugh's records includes the middle name of Todd. Her will doesn't mention her daughter Mary who was married and still living in the area so there may have been several other children already provided for and not named in the will.
Newspaper notices all available on British Newspaper Archives or Findmypast, transcriptions by me, please consult originals:
"On the 15th instant, at Drumcree Church, by the Rev Robert Henry, Mr James Todd Carrick, of Richmount, in the county of Armagh, to Isabella, eldest daughter of Mr Thomas Robinson, of Divenny, in said county." (Belfast Commercial Chronicle, 21 Sep 1825)
"On the 3d, at his house in Richmount, near Portadown, after a dedious illness, Mr Thomas Robinson, aged 45 years." (Belfast News Letter, 19 Feb 1830)
"On the 30th ult, at Drumcree Church, by the Rev D Babington, John Walker Redmond, Esq, of Grange, to Mary, youngest daughter of the late Thomas Robinson, Esq, of Richmount." (Belfast Commercial Chronicle, 11 May 1840)
"On the 1st March last, at Kyak Phoo, Arracan, India, of fever, Ensign Thomas Robinson, of the 66th Regiment, Bengal NI, Hon FLCS, aged 23 years, son of the late Thomas Robinson, Esq, Devinney, near Portadown." (Northern Whig, 25 May 1843)
"September 14, at Devinney, near Portadown, Sophia, widow of the late Mr Thomas Robinson, aged eighty-eight years." (Northern Whig, 19 Sep 1866)
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Thank you this is great!
I have a British subscription to FindMyPast only and found I couldn't access all Irish records but will check them again.
Incidentally I have a photograph of a Robinson who is decorated with medals and believed to be Frederick Robinson, surgeon with the Scots Fusiliers in the eastern campaign. I am not sure where this comes from as it was given to me, so there is no certainty about the identity.
Sophia's will also makes no mention of her children in Australia, though I suppose that is not surprising given the distance, so perhaps there were other children not named as well.
Here is a snip also from Ben Robinson's death certificate, which gives his age as 78 in 1899 and so a birth date would be around 1821.
Thanks for your correspondence. I assume you are a descendant too?
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Oops here is the other bit
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Your research sounds solid.
Those double last names are tricky and can come about in a number of ways.
Mary Robinson's husband was John Walker Redmond but his father was Abraham Walker and he seems to have taken the name Redmond on because his mother had no surviving brothers. Mary took on the double last name as did all their children. Except one son married a Walker cousin and they seem to have become Redmond Walkers instead of Walker Redmonds. Maybe he got an inheritance from an uncle or an in-law.
Their daughter Sophia Walker Redmond's married name was Clendinning if you want to check out her will referencing Ruddell Todd.
I'm not related to any of these families that I know of. They interconnect with several lines who married into my extended family. My database has lots of Robinson, Ruddell, and Todd branches in Armagh and just a couple Carrick branches. It's always nice to link them up.
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Thank you.
The names are confusing but it makes sense, as in your Walker Redmond analogy, that the idea of inheritance may have been some factor in this.
I don't see the will for Sophia on PRONI, is it available elsewhere?
I appreciate your input to this thread, many thanks.
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I don't see the will for Sophia on PRONI, is it available elsewhere?
It is in PRONI's Will Extracts-
Probate of the Will of Sophia Clendinning late of Maynooth, Co. Armagh, widow, who died 6 July 1918 granted at Armagh to Thomas Henry Hardy, Richhill, justice of the peace and David Walker Redmond, 48 Hopefield Avenue, Belfast, Co. Antrim, bank official. Effects: £2448 8s 4d. Effects re-sworn to £3732 8s 4d on 10 October 1918.
You can click on 'image' to see the wording (5 pages)-
http://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx
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Thank you, got it!
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Hi Kells
I have found the mystery man in the photo, he is not Frederick Robinson but he is Major General Charles George Gordon CB, also known as Gordon of Khartoum, if you follow this link: http://angloboerwarmuseum.com/Boer91jj_jugs_doulton.html and scroll down the page you can find the colour version of the picture. Maybe he is a relation of yours on another line. The uniform he is wearing is Egyptian. I haven't been in contact with you personally for a while, family history being neglected.
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Goodness me, how interesting! Well that at least puts a stop to the wonder about which family member is he!
It looks as though from the article that portraits were well distributed so I won't assume a family link.
What a find! Thanks :)
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Hi all,
Unsure if this will get a reply three years after the last post. But I am from Australia and seem to have roots to the Carrick/Robinson/Todds. Specifically James Todd Carrick and Sophia Robinson (formerly Ruddell Todd). I have made the connection that Sophia's brother is James Ruddell Todd a British MP who was the director of the South Australian Company. But I was wondering if there may be any link to Sir Charles Todd, who was responsible for building the first telegraph line across Australia? It notes on wikipedia that his parents werea Griffith Todd and Mary Parker, but I can't seem to make a connection to any of the Carrick/Robinson/Todds.
Any ideas?