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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: TeddyEdward on Wednesday 25 February 09 21:22 GMT (UK)
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My Grandfather (Stephen Henry Sharpe No5329589 CSM for the 2nd Bn Royal Berkshire regiment) was travelling back from India in the Autumn of 1939 with my Granmother and 6 children, one of which was my father (now deceased). They travelled by train from Lucknow to Bombay where they boarded HM Troopship Nevasa and sailed to Mombasa. I have a printed card showing there position on the 4th of Sept 1939, 103 mile short of the equator.
They transfered to another ship probably in Mombasa and on the 19th Oct at 19:30 hours there was a "large thud and bump" and in the confusion life boats where launched and 3 of the children were drowned and a man (J Clarke) in attempting to rescue what was believed to be a small child was washed overboard and also drowned.
As far as I can tell from my grandfathers hand written account of the event the ship had not been in any danger.
What I am trying to find is the name of the ship (Saga......? ) and the official record of the event to establish what happened and the names of the lost souls.
How would I go about this?
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Welcome to Rootschat! :)
Death certificates are available from the GRO Marine Deaths Indices 1903-1965
I've attached the relevant part of the index for you.
So Ronald, John and Edward, aged 10, 9 and 1 respectively.
And the vessel is the "Sagaing"
The last column refers to page number.
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And the same index also confirms the death of Joseph Clarke age 22, also on the "Sagaing"
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Hi Teddy !
I just found a snippet .... not much I'm afraid ...
NAVAL EVENTS OCTOBER 1939 Wednesday, 18 October
In submarine operations against convoy HG.3, steamers SAGAING (7968grt), GARBRATTAN (1811grt), CITY OF GUILDFORD (5157grt) and CLAN MCBEAN (5000grt) reported they were attacked on the 18th but undamaged. Destroyer ESCORT joined SAGAING and escorted her from the area.
http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-3910-07OCT02.htm
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And here she is, the SS Sagaing
http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20S/slides/Sagaing-01.html
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Another thing that might give you some clues is the movement card for SS Sagaing. It won't tell you details of any passengers, but it will tell you where the ship was sailing from, where going to, etc.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/bt389.asp
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Well this was her route in 1934-35 ... can't find one for later !
Sailings July 1934-June 1935
Liverpool, Gibraltar, Marseilles, Port Said, Port Sudan, Rangoon
http://www.timetableimages.com/maritime/images/hender.htm
Theres a way of finding out about the convoy here ... but I can't work it out ... can anybody else ??
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/index.html
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Good site that last one Annie :)
We can start recreating the ship's movements.
Nevasa (the other ship the original poster mentioned) left Mombasa independently on 20 Sept 1939 and arrived at Suez on 29 Sept. After transiting the Suez canal it reached Port Said the next day, 30th.
No movements recorded (on that site anyway) for the Sagaing in September.
Then 1-11 Oct 1939 Sagaing and Nevasa were in Convoy Blue3 from Port Said to Gibraltar
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/misc/index.html?yy.php?convoy=BLUE.3
13-21 Oct 1939 Sagaing joined the onward Convoy HG3 to Liverpool
So when tragedy struck on 19th Oct they were only 2 days out of Liverpool and approaching home waters.
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/hg/index.html?hg.php?convoy=3
The Sharpe family could have transferred from Nevasa to Sagaing in Port Said or Gibraltar.
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I spend over an hour on that site Neil ... and ended up throwing up my hands !! ::)
I knew somebody smarter than me would be able to work it out ! :D
I knew it was a good site ... I just couldn't work it !!
So you think they were only two days out ? ...... can't find a report of the loss of lives yet - but I'm still looking !
Annie :)
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I am amazed and truly grateful for all of your responses. I now have a number of leads which I will pursue. I would still like to find an official report on the event and I am now interested to see whether Joseph Clarke was awarded any posthumous award as my Grandfather said it was the most heroic act he had ever seen.
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There should be a report in the ship's official log which is held at the National Archives in piece BT 381/312 at this link here: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=8174761&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2C148845&accessmethod=0
Hit the link then hit "Request this" then take the Digital Express option and follow instructions. You need to be specific and ask for the "Narrative of the ship's log for SAGAING official number 148845 for the month of October 1939". It is very important that you stress that you need the NARRATIVE otherwise you may get other parts of the official log that mean nothing to you.
The cost for this file will be £8.50 for up to 10 document pages direct to your email address on a no find no fee basis (24 hour service).
The passenger list for SAGAING that disembarked at Liverpool on 21st October 1939 is held at the National Archives in piece BT 26/1174/25 at this link: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-4489599&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2C148845&accessmethod=0
Passenger/cargo ship SAGAING official number 148845 built in 1925 by W. Denny, Dumbarton for P.Henderson & Co.
Bombed by Japanese aircraft, Trincomalee 9.4.1942 & beached.
Hope that is of some help to you.
Regards
Hugh
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:) Hugh:
Many thanks for the info I will take time out this coming week and follow this and the other leads I have been given. Again many thanks I am extremely grateful.
Regards
Teddy
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Hello Teddy,
I have also been trying to research the same incident as my grandparents were on the same jouney involving the same ships and the sinking of the hospital ship SSYorkshire.They also sadly lost 2 of their children who were tipped out of a lifeboat that had the ropes cut.
My Grandfather was a staff seargent at the time and I have a copy of the statement he made about the incident if you ARE interested.
It has only just been sent to me and it stirred my interest again and did a google only to find you story.
I am not very savvy with these web sites so I hope this reaches you
RoyW
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This is off subject but what intrust do you have in Jim Matthews records who are you
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Hello I am the daughter of Maureen Joseph (nee Wells) she was on the ship SS Sagaing with her mum Mary Elizabeth Wells and her sister Patricia. I have already located Robert Loakes as my Mum was friends with Jacklyn and Patricia James. My grandfather was stationed in India since 1934 and they were there during the Quetta earthquake and left in Sept. 1939 on the Sagaing. My Mum only recently passed and started a book and I am trying now to succeed to a documentary as I have done 2 films prior and feel this story needs to be told. My Mum was lined up to be put into the lifeboats when the ship was thought to be hit. Panic ensued when the Indian Passengers broke through and the lifeboats tipped. They watched the James girls and Mum die. This was something that caused much trauma to my grandmother, my mum and Aunt. They all wrote about watching the other boats being torpedoed. I have never seen any other accounts and would love to see them and if any persons feel that they would like to participate in this project they would be most welcome. I am coming to England in May or June to start again the process of research and would like to know where any documents you know of can be seen. Respectfully, Lisa Joseph
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My Mum was a child on the boat with her mum Mary Wells and her sister Pat. My Mum said they boarded the Nevasa in bombay and then went on the SS Sagaing. My mum was 7 at the time but she had thought they were on the Nevasa when the boat was hit by the depth charger but it seems she must of transferred onto the Sagaing. During the panic my mum was getting into the lifeboat when a Indian passenger grabbed her from the boat from her hair and panic broke out. Luckily my nana - Mary Wells decided if they were to die it was going to be on the boat. They watched as there friends The James family drowned and had to tell the husband in Liverpool. I would love to see any written accounts as my Mum has worked on a book for years but passed last year and I promised to finish the book and I promised that if possible we would venture to make a documentary film. Now with my experience as a social documentarian I would like to document as much on film. I also have much more info and photos on deck of both boats. Love to hear more, Lisa
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Hi,
I have been researching this topic for sometime as my grandparents lost 2 children in this incident and a further child was rescued from one of the life boats.One man was washedaway trying to rescue my uncle but another man managed to get him from the boat. Family history has it that it was an Irish Yachtsman who apparently came to see my grandparents sometime after the war as he was writting a book about the incident.(I cannot find a book with reference to the incident.)My mother was dropped between one of the lifeboats and the ship and was thought lost but she was swept onto a deck below and survived)My grandfather WAS a staff sergeant i the RA and I have a copy of the statement he made about the incident at the time.My aunt Margaret was also on board but was a baby at the time so has little recollection.The ships log can be viewed at the National archive but only under supervision it has not been digitised and you cannot order copies by e mail.The ships log shows some variation from my Grandfathers statement and some suspicious features when compared to other logs contained in the same folder. The incident was not written up until after the ship docked.The crew members registrations were all in the same hand not so in the other logs they seemed to have all signed in individually.I guess it may have been doctored for moral purposes. I noted at the time that the log had been taken to the board of trade at some point and wonder if there was some sort of enquiry but I have no Idea how to research that.There is a German U Boat site that has an account of the attack on the convoy.I emailed a lot of this information to Robert Loakes and I believe he may have forwarded it to you. I am not very savvy at this so I am not sure I could attach stuff here but I know how to do It with email so if you care to send me your email I will forward any thing you require. I have pictures on my I pad of the entries in the ships log I could send them to you.I obtained Death certificates for the 2 lost boys
I was never able to discuss the incident with my grand parents I new they had lost Edgar and Rowland on the way back from India but it was never really talked about.Apparently my Gran was convinced till she dies that one of the boys had survived but I never knew this until recently. My mother had the miraculous escape falling between decks but had never mentioned it until my Grandads statement turned up even that was quite mysterious as his sister suddenly decided to produce at a family gathering and neither my mother or her sister knew of its existence.
I have stopped asking my mother about the incident as she began to have nightmares again about the ship that sunk the previous day(The Yorkshire) some of the lifeboats were pulled down into the void. There is an account by a survivor of this sinking in the archive I think of the New York Times/herald it comes up if you google Yorkshire sinking.There is also an account in a kentish parish magazine and I believe maybe some sort of memorial plaque.It sounds from your reply as if you are used to researching so you will probably have done better than I so I would gratefully received any other information that you have.We live in south east London if you are coming over to London it may be possible to meet if you wish.
Kind regards RoyW
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regarding Convoy HG-3, I have an Elderly friend (98) who was on the ship "Regestan" that was part of that convoy sailing back to UK from Gibraltar. On the 17 Oct 1939 she had just went on deck, she was looking straight across at the ship "Yorkshire" which was the ship next to hers in the convoy, next thing a massive orange flame went up from the "Yorkshire" she had been hit by a U-Boat. On the right side of the “Regestan” was the ship "City Of Mandalay", within a few minutes of the "Yorkshire" being hit, the "City Of Mandalay" was also hit, both ships sank in about 14 minutes.
My friend Phyllis, often talks about that day, and I said I would try and find out about it and if anyone had any more information or stories of that time. I have a lot of German U-boat reports and a lot of conflicting reports. She didn't see anyone get out of the “Yorkshire” or the "City Of Mandalay", but reports say 300 were rescued.
My E-mail is nicholas.dooley@ntlworld.com
Nick Dooley
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301 survivors from both vessels. Picked up and landed in Bordeaux by the American steamer INDEPENDENCE HALL.
I have the official Survivors reports for both vessels if you would like copies.
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Seaweed, any report would be great, Thanks. I have been trying to convince my friend Phyllis who was 21 years old at the time, that people did get rescued from both ships. Her boat the “Registan” was very close to the “Yorkshire” when it was hit, she watched from the side of her ship as the Yorkshire went down, and she said she saw nothing left on the surface afterwards, she said it went down in about 14 minutes, at the same time the “City of Mandalay” was hit and went down in about 9 minutes, also she said the water was flat calm.
So I have been trying to get information together to explain, without telling her she was wrong, but she has lived all her life thinking all those poor people died. Although Phyllis is 98 now her mind is as sharpe as anything.
She wrote an account of it 25 years ago:-
"In Warm sunny weather and a calm sea, the convoy of thirty-three ships in three columns of eleven re-positioned themselves. The "Registan" led the centre column, the liner the "Yorkshire" on which I had tried hard to obtain a passage, led the port side column and the liner "City of Mandalay" led the starboard column. The "Nevasa" was immediately astern of the "Registan" and carried masses of khaki clad troops, shoulder to shoulder on the deck and faces were permanently at portholes. The convoy travelled at eight nautical miles per hour, the speed of the slowest ship and zig zagged into the Atlantic which I was told was a method used to mislead the enemy. The frigates were no longer with us and as far as I could see the convoy was defenceless.
One morning I was asked if I would like to see the Radio 0fficer at work and I got no further than opening his door because he worked in such a confined space and by putting an arm out he could touch all four walls as he sat there. He gave me a pleasant broad smile and continued to listen intently through his headphones. I was told that he could receive messages but he could not, send any and that they had received Information that morning that a U-boats were in the area.
After, lunch I was asked if I would like to visit the engine room and at about three o’clock I made my way down the metal companionway to the engine room where the Engineer Officer was standing and he pointed out interesting things to me. I was surprised by the cleanliness, the bright shining brass no obvious smell of engines and much less noise than I would have expected. I thanked the officer for his personal attention to me and retraced my steps on companionway which led up the centre and branched left as well as right as there was an open door onto the main deck from each. I took the left turn and saw that the “Yorkshire" was very close at that moment and exactly level with us. Frequently the juxtapositions of the leading ships altered as one or other gains a little or falls back. I was about, to put my foot out onto the main deck when there was a very loud explosion on the "Yorkshire" and a huge orange flame shot high up immediately in front of me. A torpedo had struck in the middle of the ship. The ship shuddered and stopped.
I ran to the bridge deck, held the hand rail as I stood looking at the doomed ship and surveying the whole convoy. Totally unaware that anyone else was near me I felt a hand grip mine on the hand rail as we both heard shouts and cries from the "Yorkshire". At a glance I saw that the person standing next to me was the young, tall, dark-haired and handsome Reverend Shirehampton, another passenger. Now my thoughts were no longer my own, I could speak them. The “Registan" was gaining speed rapidly trying to race away from the scene, creaking and groaning with the enormous efforts the engines were making and the deck plates shook violently. In only four minutes all the ships had taken different directions and the convoy was dispersing. We realised suddenly that none of the ships could stop to help otherwise they would have been sitting ducks for the U-boats. Immediately there were two more loud bangs and more orange flames on our left. The "City of Mandalay" had been struck and she seemed to rise in the water as the torpedoes struck and then halted. The "Yorkshire" went down in four-teen minutes and the "City of Mandalay"' sank in only nine minutes and they by chance took their last plunge simultaneously. The "Yorkshire" went down by the stern and the "City of Mandalay"' by the bow. Watching two magnificent ships sinking helplessly is a formidable sight and the horror of what was happening on board them can be imagined and the survivors had so little. time in which to save themselves. Somewhere in the Atlantic these two ships are lying very close to each other. We speculated that there must have been two U-boats to have struck the two ships either side of the "Registan" within four minutes when travelling completely alongside each other. We wondered if we were now going to be picked off because it was plain that they were attacking the leaders. We braced ourselves for what we thought was the inevitable but as each minute passed it did not come. Whilst saddened by the events we could not believe our good fortune and as if to relieve my own apprehension I permitted myself the thought that it could be no bad thing that I had got God, by proxy, standing next to me"
My E-mail:- nicholas.dooley@ntlworld.com
Nick Dooley
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Survivors reports sent via e-mail.
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Hi, this whole event with the SS Sagaing on HG-3 convoy is fascinating and so tragic. on the research I have carried out, the timing of the whole thing is conflicting. The deaths where registered as the 19th Oct 1939, but the only U-boat report I can find is dated from the 17th Oct.
This report is from “Historisches MarineArchiv.com”. It’s the report from U-48 about the attack and sinking of the “Clan Chisholm” but then goes onto talk about attacking the Sagaing with torpedoes later that same night and the Sagaing sending out an S.O.S.. The report is in German and I don’t speak any, so retyped it out and used Babelfish to translate it, so not 100% right. If any wants to have a go who does speak German, please.
This is what I Got
Standort: Groβquadrat 9153 B E
Location: Quadrant 9153 B E
20:14
Standort: Groβquadrat 9153 B E
L = 45 17‘ N= 15 04‘
Location: Quadrant 9153 B E
Zwei abgeblendete Dampfer in sicht.
Two dimmed steamer in sight.
20:32
1. Torpedoschuβ aufeinen der Dampfer..
Keine Detonation gehört.
1. Torpedo on one of the steamer ..
No detonation.
20:35
2. Torpedoschuβ auf denselben Dampfer..
2. Torpedo on the same steamer.
Treffer in höhe des achteren Mastes, Der Dampfer sinkt langsam. Er war 5000 – 6000 t groβ. Die Besatzung des Dampfers geht in die Boote. Verfolgung des 2. Dampfers aufgenommen.
Hits in the center of the aft mast, The steamer sinks slowly. It was 5000 - 6000 t. The crew of the steamer enters the boats. Pursuit of the 2nd steamer.
21:00
Zerstörer 300 – 400 m an B.B. in sicht, der mit-hoher Fahrt zur Versenknngsstelle des 1. Dampfers läuft.
Destroyer 300 - 400 m to B.B. In view, which runs with-high drive to the sinking place of the first steamer.
21:03
Torpedoschuβ aus Rohr V auf den Zerstὄrer. Fehlschuβ. Zerstὄrer hat uns nicht bemerkt Wir Verfolgen den 2. Dampfer weiter.
Torpedo tube from tube V to the destroyer. Missed Destroyer did not notice us We pursue the 2nd steamer further.
23:10 hrs
Standort: Groβquadrat 9231 B E.
Location: Quadrant 9231 B E
1. Torpedoschuβ auf den 2. Dampfer. E = 150m. Sehr gerlnge Entferaung. Keine Detonation gehὄrt. Torpedo wahrscheinlich noch nicht.
1. Torpedo on the 2nd steamer. E = 150m. Very long distance. No detonation. Torpedo probably not yet.
Eingesteuert, sodaβ der Dampfer unterschossan wurde. Dampfer hat uns entdeckt. Er funkt S.O.S. und meldet position und U-Boot. Es ist der englische Dampfer „Sagaing“, 7 968 t.
Steered, so that the steamer became undershot. Steamer has discovered us. He sparks S.O.S. And reports position and submarine. It is the English steamer "Sagaing", 7 968 t.
23:20 hrs
2. Torpedoschuβ auf den Dampfer „Sagaing“ abegeben. Fehlschuβ ! Alle Torpedos sind veschossen. Ich willden Dampfer, wenn mὄglich, in def Morgendammerung mit. Artillerie versenkeh.
2. Put the torpedo on the steamer "Sagaing". Wrong! All torpedoes are shot. I want the steamboat, if possible, at dawn. Sink artillery
Ich halte jetst an dem Dampfer Fuhlung, da ich annehme, das der Geleitzug morgen frϋh bzw. Im laufe des Tages sich weider sammelt. Abgabe Fϋnlungshaltermeldung gem.
I now hold on to the steamer feeling, since I presume that the convoy will gather tomorrow morning, or during the course of the day. Delivery notification holder acc.
I have attached original report to this entry (Hopefully)
Nick Dooley