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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: pixiechick on Monday 02 March 09 18:00 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am researching my daughter in laws family for her. We have come across her family Wagner in the census' as she is from Gertrude Wagner's line who is aged 2 living in Weston super mare on the 1881 census where it shows Christopher as her father being born in Germany and a musician. I have traced back to 1841 census and there I have found Christopher with other members of the family all stated as being foreign and all musicians. They obviously came from Germany sometime together and settled at Broadmead Bristol. :-\
I have tried to find them on the family search site and have possibilities.
I really would appreciate help in this as I want to be sure that I am tracing the right Christoph Wagner and would like to find exactly where they came from in Germany.
Many thanks
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Hello Pixiechick
I have just had a look at the 1881 census for Christopher Wagner. I note the entry states he is a Naturalised British Subject.
It maybe worth looking at the National Archives website for documents relating to Naturalization
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=242&j=1
You need to find a place of birth for Germany as there is no central registration system. The best chance of finding this information is from Naturalisation records.
Best wishes
Sue
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The Christopher Wagner in 1841 is 24, and 40 years later the one in 1881 is only 46.
I don't think that these are the same person (unless you have him consistently enough through all censuses that you can prove that this is the same person who has reduced his age as he married a younger wife). There seems to be only one Christopher Wagner in 1871 that I can see - and this is the Durham-residing Christopher who is also in 1881 and is definitely not the same as yours.
Ideally you would want to get his marriage certificate first - IGI submitted records show that his wife may have been Mary "Emlem" Edwards - this marriage is indexed on freebmd.rootsweb.com in 1872 - Christopher Wagner and Mary Emlen/Emien Edwards, and is at the right time/right place. That will give his father's name and occupation, and also an address and witness names in 1871 which might help if you're trying to work out how and with who he came to England.
You might look into the William Wagner aged 30 who is also in Weston Super Mare in 1881 - also b. Germany and also a musician. He would be a possible brother.
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Further to the reply to Jorose there is a Christopher Wagner living in Weston Super Mare 1891 aged 69 years making him born in 1822.
To confuse matters further when looking at Deaths there are the following
Christopher Wagner MQ 1893 Axbridge (covers Weston S Mare) 5c 397 aged 66
Christopher Wagner MQ 1911 Sunderland 10a 389 aged 71
I also note on An****ry there is a family tree showing a Christopher Wagner born 1824 Bavaria. To learn more a direct enquiry is required.
Sue
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Many thanks for your postings Sue and Jorose. I have come across the same problems as you ie the ages don't tally for Christopher. Although looking at the 1881 and 1891 census the children and their ages match and I found Gertrude on a separate 1881 census in service at age 12. They do seem to have disappeared from the census's for 1861 and 1871 so now wondering if he came over to UK around that time and not with the 1841 group although he married in 1872 ? I have sent for the marriage certificate so hopefully I will get further information from that.
I looked at the national archives for the passenger lists and naturalization lists which seem to start in 1844 which is a bit late for the 1841 group that are listed but I will look again now as it could be this Christopher came over later. Will let you know if I find out anything.
Many thanks again
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An Update. I now have the marriage certificates for Gertrude and her father.
Gertrude married Henry Watts Dec 27 1897 aged 21 living in Weston super mare her father Christopher Wagner listed as deceased, musician. Witnessed by Richard August Wagner and Emma Wagner, I believe this is her brother and his wife as I have found marriage record for Richard and Emma Lovell Sept 1897
Christopher Wagner married Mary Emlen Edwards 8 Dec 1872 living in Weston super mare. He is listed as a widower, musician and his father is Christopher Wagner and a farmer. Mary's father is Frank Edwards, Mason. Witnesses Frederick Baldus and the other one is hard to read looks like Edenry Yadley but this must be completely wrong as cannot find this name on census's however I found Frederick Baldus and he is on the census living in Weston s mare also a musician from Germany b c1846 !! The ages are listed as 'full' what does that mean??? ???
So I have found another Christopher (Christopher's dad) and Christopher was a widower when he married Mary. The ages on the certificate haven't helped me at all so wondering if Gertrude's birth cert will help.
Now trying to find Christopher Wagner farmer.
Any help and suggestions would be most welcome.
Many thanks
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Hi
Full age means that they declared themselves as 21 or over for the wedding. Ages on marriage certificates are often unreliable - under-age people claim to be of full age and older people sometimes knock a few years off to pretend that they are about the same age as their younger partner.
Good luck
Gobbo
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Hi
Thanks for your help. I guessed it was probably because he didn't want his age known as he married a younger woman!
I have found someone who's great grandfather was Christopher Wagner ;D
and he confirms that Christopher or Christoff did alter his age and even on his death certificate apparently it shows 66yrs of age when in fact he was 72.
He says that he came in 1840/1/2 with a group of Musicians arriving in Dover via Belgium. He also seems to think that he wasn't naturalised as he couldn't find him at Kew but that is all the information he has.
Now the problem is to try and find out where in Germany he came from. Any ideas where to go next ????
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Dear Pixiechick
The big problem with German genealogy is nothing is centralised and there are no state census records. One needs to know the area a person came from to check in this case church records as his arrival in GB was before local civil registration started in Germany.
My advice is to look for clues in his life. Did he leave a will- ? Is there a memorial grave stone for him in Weston Super Mare - which may offers some more details?
I know of a very good local historian in Weston Super Mare - who may have looked at the history of the family. This chap is often to be found in WSM library compelling family histories.
Let me know and I will PM you his details - or try WSM reference library - they hold quite a few trees.
The name Christopher can also be spelt Christoph.
Wishing you luck
Sue
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Thanks for the information Sue I will start searching for wills etc.
Yes if you could let me have the details of the historian in WS Mare I would be grateful although I would like to see how far I can get first and then call on him to fill in the blanks.
Many thanks again
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Found Christopher Wagner's Arrival Certificates: He arrived with his group on 30th April, 1842 at Dover via Belgium. Native of Germany. The 1840 one is the same with the arrival date being 1st May. There is no mention of the ship's name or the port in Belgium.
Does anyone know where I go from here???
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The most likely port of departure would be Antwerp; unfortunately I don't know that there are records back that early.
If you have a list of all the people who arrived with him, you could see if any of them became citizens, thus getting an idea of where they came from. Or if there's unusual
http://www.felixarchief.be/ - has some documents indexed supposedly something to do with registers of aliens but they seem to start at 1840. Not sure if these would involve those just passing through or those who settled down in Antwerp but there are some Wagners, if not your Christopher.
1861 census: 7 New Westgate Bldgs, Bath
Christopher Wagner, 40, musician, b. Germany Naturalised Subject
Emma, 36, dealer in old shoes, b. Bath
Christopher, 15
William, 8
Catherine, 11
Sarah, 5
(all b. Bath)
Elizabeth Calpen, wife's mother, formerly clothes dealer, b. Bath
Emma died in 1862.
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Jorose, I clicked on the link you provided but as I cannot read or speak German I was stuck!
The Christopher you listed is him, his first wife was Emma then he remarried Mary Emlen Edwards and moved to Weston super Mare as listed in other posts.
On his marriage cert his father was Frederick Wagner a Farmer.
I will try and find the people he was with as you suggest in the hope it will lead somewhere
Many thanks
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Well, German would only help a little - it's in dutch. ;) Google Translate should get you most of the way there, though.
Zoeken in archieven = search the archives.
http://www.felixarchief.be/Unrestricted/Zoeken_isad.aspx
Zoeken in index vreemdelingendossiers (district Antwerpen, 1840-1930)
= search the index of immigration registers (for the district of Antwerp)
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Many thanks for the information. :)
I found some Wagners but unfortunately not the ones I was looking for. They seemed to have french names so I don't think it was his family.
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Still hitting brick walls!
Long shot but does anyone know if there are records of passports issued as they must have had to have one to board the ship to cross the channel ???
I've looked at german family record sites and still no trace of the family of Christoph Wagner but then I have not much to go on just that his father was a farmer and his name was Frederick or it states Christoph on his second marriage certificate!
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Dear Pixiechick
Passports are really something of the late 19th and 20th century. I cannot think one was necessary back in the 1840's. Germany was not a unified country until 1871 so I think this is not a likely path of research.
Have you tried to find if there is a grave for the Wagners in Weston Super Mare? You may find additional information on a MI - I have not got the disc yet from Weston FHS - once it arrives I can look it up but it maybe worth contacting
Weston Town Council to see if they have a record of a grave.
Gravestones can contain surprising information
Names were anglecised in many cases or changes completely. I cannot find a naturalisation record on the National Archives website for a Christopher Wagner however this is one for Fredrich Wagner from Wurtemburg .
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-2201556&j=1
Wagner is quite a common German name and just looking through the Naturalisations listed for Germany - the localities mentioned are spread throughout the country. I am sorry to say without central registration here - its a needle in a haystack.
You could try IGI search
http://www.familysearch.org/
The variants of the name Wagner are covered but there are a lot of potentials
Have you tried looking for a will - sometimes these can have interesting facts.
I am sorry I cannot be more positive. Have you approached Weston Super Mare library to see if they have any information on him?
Fingers crossed for you
Sue
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Hi Sue
Not sure if I mentioned that the local historian you put me in contact with wrote back and was able to provide me with a little bit extra about Christoph and his family and so I haven't contacted the Library as I am sure he would have found everything there was to find.
He unfortuanely couldn't help with the German link. So now I am trying Bristol as I am pretty sure he is on the 1841 census.
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Hi
Glad to hear you got a bit more info- every little helps as they say.
1841 census shows the family living in Broadmead Bristol in the parish of St James
Christopher Wagner age 50 Musician born Foreign Parts
Fred age 25 Musician
HJ ? age 20 Musician
Christian age 17 Musician
Christopher age 24 Musician
Fred ? age 15 Musician
All born Foreign Parts
Class: HO107; Piece 372; Book: 5; Civil Parish: St James; County: Gloucestershire; Enumeration District: 11; Folio: 54; Page: 7; Line: 24
They are living in a household with two other families- the Knight family - head of which was a Victualler
It is possible that the family arrived in England as Bristol as the port of entry. Maybe Bristol Record Office have some information on the family.
Still waiting for Burial disc for Weston super Mare to look up for you.
All the best
Sue
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Hi Sue
Yes that is the census I found and thought it must be our Christopher. On the certificate of arrival it shows Dover as the port of arrival via Belgium so what made them decide on going on to Bristol who knows.
I have just had the Weston super Mare burials via someone on Ancestry and unfortunately there is no inscription on his grave. He was buried 4th March 1893 grave no Tc 3771, she was however able to provide burial info on his family which was helpful.
So Christopher remains elusive! :-\ I am hoping Bristol records will have something !
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Hi Sue
My last post seems to have disappeared so apologies if you have received this.
I think we have a lead on Christoph.
Another lady who is related to Christoph have not given up on trying to find his roots. She has tried following the others that were with him on certificate of arrival. The one (Gottfried Seidenstucker) is from Kahla, Thuringia, Saxony and she has found a Christoph Wagner b 1822 Zwickau and Friedrick 1787 Meerane. These could potentially be our Christoph and his father.
We need to find out if the above Christoph came to the UK in 1840 landing in Dover along with Elizabeth, Christian, Friedrich and Heinrich Wagner plus Heinrich Blank. Also in 1842 the group were Friedrich Christian, George and Heinrich Wagner plus Gottfried Seidenstucker, Ignaz Ochs, Joseph Hartmann, George and Julien Schmidt again arriving in Dover via Belgium all musicians.
We are wondering if you could point us in the right direction to find out how to trace these facts and also if Christoph b 1822 Zwickau had siblings by the above names. A long shot I know but it seems to be the only lead so far as there are no documents and no one in the family knows where Christophs roots are.
Any help would be appreciated.
Many thanks