RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Buteshire => Topic started by: Torrie on Wednesday 04 March 09 23:51 GMT (UK)
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Hello!
I am a new member and I was wondering how to go about finding information connecting my greatgrandmother Beatrice (maiden name) Livingstone with my "supposed" relative Dr. David Livingstone.
Beatrice was born in Port Bannatyne, Scottland in 1887 however I only know that her father's name is Duncan Livingstone and mother's name is Elizabeth.
However I canfind no other information on Duncan and Elizabeth
any help would be great!
Torrie
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Hi Torrie
This looks to be the family's 1891 census entry:
Duncan Livingstone 52, fisherman, b. Morven, Argyllshire
Betsy Livingstone 32, b. Morven, Argyllshire
Peter Livingstone 14, b. Airdlamont, Argyllshire
Isabella Livingstone 13, b. Airdlamont, Argyllshire
Alexander Livingstone 10, b. Airdlamont, Argyllshire
John Livingstone 8, b. Airdlamont, Argyllshire
Janet Livingstone 8, b. Airdlamont, Argyllshire
Duncan Livingstone 6, b. Airdlamont, Argyllshire
Beatrice Livingstone 3, b. Port Bannatyne, Buteshire
Catherine Livingstone 1, b. Port Bannatyne, Buteshire
John Livingstone 48, brother, fisherman, b. Morven, Argyllshire
Address: Salizbury Pl., North Bute
Monica :)
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Torrie
A good way for you to further research is to look for Beatrice's birth certificate to confirm mother's maiden name. From that, you will be able to search for Duncan and Elizabeth's marriage cert. which will include full details of their parents' names and so on.
BMDs are available to view on line at Scotlands People at v. reasonable charges (£1.20GB per image).
Have a look at these help notes here on RootsChat for background and advice notes on Scottish Research:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html
Re Dr David Livingstone, he was a Blantyre boy born in 1813. You may need to delve much further back to see whether any connections can be made.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Torrie's Mom here. We know thru family (unfortunately deceased) that David is a cousin...possible 2nd to my grandmother Beatrice.
The Port Bannatyne, Beatrice, Catherine, John would be her family.
Bets
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Hi Bets :)
Welcome also to RootsChat!
I'm just trying to think how you can make your connections. You have Duncan and Elizabeth as parents to Beatrice and the family's 1891 entry showing where everyone was born.
Dr David Livingstone is at least two generations up from Beatrice I would say, so gg uncle rather cousin perhaps. There's plenty on Dr Livingstone's family and genealogy on line to let you check what the links there could be to your family. You need to go back on Duncan and brother John's lines first to give you the details I would think.
Monica
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hi!
Thanks for the great info!!!!!
I went to the Scotland's people website and search for Beatrice's birth certificate. The search came back with one result but before I can look at it I have to pay a fee. But I'm concerned that it may not be the right one, as I can't look to confirm...
any suggestion???
Torrie
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Hi Torrie
When you are searching for certificates, unfortunately it is one of those things that you can't be a 100% certain until you look and are able to verify the information that is one there. We all can make mistakes when searching for certificates (in my early days of researching I made lots of mistakes hunting my MacDonald ancestors in the Highlands, I could have wallpapered a room with my wrong certs!).
In the case of Beatrice's birth cert, as you say, there is only one showing in the area and period that you are looking at. So, you have to make informed guesses with the information you have and hope it is the right one :) Once you view it, you will quickly establish whether it is the right one from the parents' information contained there.
I have just been working through some possible census entries for Duncan Livingstone which I will post separately.
Monica :)
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Firstly, this is the family in 1901:
Duncan Livingstone 64, fisherman, b. Morvern
Betsy Livingstone 44, b. Kilfinan
John Livingstone 18, b. Kilfinan
Duncan Livingstone 16, b. Kilfinan
Beatrice Livingstone 13, b. North Bute
Catherine Livingstone 11, b. North Bute
Allan Livingstone 3, b. North Bute
John Livingstone 62, fisherman, b. Morvern
Address: New Hafton Place, North Bute
With the information we have on father Duncan and wife, I think this is them in 1881:
1881:
Duncan Livingston 42, fisherman, b. Morvern
Betsy Livingston 24, b. Kilfinan
Peter Livingston 4, b. Kilfinan
Isabella Livingston , b. Kilfinan
Alexander Livingston 7 Weeks b. Morvern
John Livingston 38, brother, fisherman, b. Morvern
Address: Clachoclin, Kilfinan Argyll
And likely, Duncan before he married in 1871:
1871:
Duncan Livingston 34, Herring Fisherman, b. Morven
Catherine Livingston 36, sister, b. Morvern
John Livingston 29, brother, Herring Fisherman, b. Morven
Ann McLean 4, niece, b. Caddy, Lanarkshire
Address: Clachlain House, Kilfinan Argyll
Monica
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I'm taking a bit of a guess here from the information we have found on the censuses ::) Hopefully you can verify Duncan's parents' names from his marriage certificate to Betsy. There are a family of Livingstons from Morven that might fit for Duncan's family. An Allan Livingston and Janet McInnes had the following children:
1. PATRICK LIVINGSTON Birth: 08 FEB 1828
2. KATRINE LIVINGSTON Birth: 18 NOV 1829
3. MARY LIVINGSTON Birth: 24 AUG 1831
4. DUNCAN LIVINGSTONBirth: 02 JUL 1833
5. JOHN LIVINGSTON Birth: 11 SEP 1837
6. ANN LIVINGSTON Birth: 27 JAN 1844
The names above would fit the 1871 census entry we have for Duncan with brother John and sister Catherine.
This family in the censuses:
1841 - everyone showing as born in the County apart from Allan:
Allan Livingston 45, agri. lab, b. Scotland
Jannet Livingston 40
Patrick Livingston 13
Cathrine Livingston 11
Duncan Livingston 9
Aexander Livingston 7
John Livingston 5
Mary Livingston 3
John Livingston 55
Mary Livingston 90
Address: Lochaline Village, Morvern
1851:
Allan Livingston 55, Gen Labourer & Fenar, b. Morvern
Janet Livingston 52, b. Dundee
Mary Livingston 18, b. Morvern
Duncan Livingston 16, b. Morvern
John Livingston 13, b. Morvern
Ann Livingston 8, b. Morvern
Donald Cameron 2, grandson, b. Morvern
Address: 9 Livingston's, Lochaline, Morvern Argyll
1861:
Allan Livingstone 67, agr. lab. b. Morvern
Catherine Livingstone 28, agr. lab. b. Morvern
Duncan Livingstone 26, agr. lab. b. Morvern
Peter McLean 5, relative
Address: Cardenoch, Cadder, Lanarkshire
As I have mentioned, parents' details need to be verified for Duncan before you can be certain this is his family line.
Monica
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There is a marriage for a Duncan Livingston and a Betsy McBride showing in 1876 in Kilfinan, where the family show in 1881 that looks promising. Again, Beatrice's birth cert. will let you confirm it is the right one with the confirmation of her mother Betsy's surname :)
Monica
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We have McBride and Whitelock cousins here that my mom and her sisters always visited in the summer.
One of the men I remember was a Duncan Mcbride
betsy
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Hi Betsy :)
I found this site from google www.desmond-mcallister.info/Eng/Ancestors/aqwg387.htm#12763
They have Alexander McBride and Isabella McAllister as Elizabeth (Betsy)'s parents. You can use the links to go into different lines.
Monica
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Hi Torrie
See http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~swilson/livingstone/livingstone.htm for the tree that you're aiming to connect with.
The missionary David is the one born 1813 in Blantyre.
Wullie
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There's lots around isn't there Wullie - if only all our families were so well documented!
There is a particularly extensive tree for this Livinstone line on google www.reclaimed-treasures.com/rlivingston/dd7.htm, "DESCENDANTS OF NEIL LEVINGSTON AND AGNES HUNTER (FATHER & MOTHER OF DR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE).
Hopefully, you may find the connection!
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You also have another descendant of Duncan and Betsy:
My ancestors were in Lochaline in the 1800's my great etc grandfather Duncan Livingston was born here in 1833 his mother janet McInnes died there in 1855. Trying to find out if Duncan Livingston his grandfather and Mary Cameron his grandmother were born in the area. Allan Livingston was born 1795 in Lanark he married in Morvern in 1827. Would anyone out there have information on them I have hit a wall....
www.ukvillages.co.uk/guest_book/Acharn (Highland)-Highland&logid=
This explains why Allan showed as born in Scotland (outside of the county) for the 1841 census. The marriage for Allan and Janet shows on 05 APR 1827 Morven, Argyll in the Old Parish Registers.
Monica
Added: I'm having problems pasting the link to the specific post on UK villages - let me see if I can get round it :-\
...and the answer is no I can't, but if you go to UK Villages site you should be able to find the post and be able to contact the poster via her email.
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As noted by Torrie, Beatrice was born in Port Bannatyne in Bute in 1887, her parents being Duncan, a fisherman, and Betsy (Elizabeth) McBRIDE, who were married in Kilfinan in 1876, just across the water from Bute.
The 1876 marriage shows the parents as Allan LIVINGSTON and Janet LIVINGSTON MS McINNES , and Alexander McBRIDE and Isabella McBRIDE MS McALISTER.
Janet LIVINGSTON MS McINNES died in 1855 in Lochaline in Morvern parish.
Allan died in Kilfinan parish in 1867, aged 78, parents Duncan LIVINGSTON and Mary CAMERON. Back to this generation I can't see a connection to the missionary David LIVINGSTON, - but that's not to say that there isn't a connection in earlier generations !
Wullie
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And then, on www.familysearch.org, there's ..........
MARY LIVINGSTON Christening: 02 DEC 1792 Lanark, Lanark, Scotland
Parents:
Father: DUNCAN LIVINGSTON
Mother: MARY CAMERON
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record.
Wullie
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WOW! Thank you so much for all this great information!
Before I pay for the birth certificate at Scottland's People, I was wondering how the site works...one credit for every certificate? What is it that I will be looking at when I pay to see a statutory Birth record...will it be a copy of the original or typed out information?
I can't wait to see her birth certificate (crossing fingers its the right one), as it will verify all the information from the census!!!!
Thank you again for all of your work!!
Torrie
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Torrie
The links I posted earlier are worthwhile having a look at before you start:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html - Researching in Scotland, in particular where to go to for records and what information is contained on certificates post 1855
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html - how to get the best out of Scotlands People, the official pay to view site for BMD and census original images.
Regarding your questions, this will be covered in the links above but briefly. You need to buy a minimum of 30 credits for £6GB. When you do a seach, it costs you 1 unit (£0.20) to view the search results and then 5 units (£1) to view the image of the certificate on line. You then can save the image on to your computer and print off.
What you are viewing is an image of the actual entry on the register.
Wullie has already kindly spent some of his own SP units looking at the images on SP it would seem :) The information he included in his last posts confirms what we have been discussing, so certainly the birth certificate looks to be the right one from the information that Wullie has transcribed from the cert.
Monica
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Torrie I just saw your post on Beatrice Livingstone. She was my Grandfather's sister and the postings from the others are on track. Please email me if you want more information.
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WOW thats amazing
I have emailed you through roots chat's personal messages!!!
Thanks so much!
Torrie
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Torrie I cannot reply on PM's yet as I have just joined. Just to confirm this is Beatrice Livingstone who married John William Simpson (from Ireland) on 14th December 1921 in Toronto, Canada.
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Hi Appinlad
Welcome to RootsChat :)
You need to have done 3 posts on the main forum to be able to respond to PMs. So, just do one more here and you should be able to correspond with Torrie via the PM system.
Monica
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Thanks for that Monica - such an interesting site I am glad I came across it.
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Torrie
Attached is the marriage certificate of Beatrice and William.
I don't think I can send photos on PMs so did it this way. I also have a photo of Janet with (I believe) Catherine if you want and Aunt Kate (Catherine) taken at Sturgeon Lake in 1967.
Image Removed: Only a small portion of a certificate may be displayed for identification pruposes
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Torrie
Here is photo of Janet and Catherine (I believe)
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and here is the one of Aunt Kate (Catherine) taken at Lake Sturgeon in 1967. She is seated right the two children are Patty and David Dobrashinsky.
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WOWOWOWOWW
The kids are my cousins Pat and Dave they live in Oshawa and we still see each other once and a while...they are Victoria's kids!!!! I talk to Pat and Daves kids once in a while.
My Mother's family had a lot right next to the the one in the photo and she says that she was probably there at the time this photo would have been taken.
Who is the other woman in the photo, if you know?
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The woman in the backgroud is one of Beatrice's daughters..Ina (Catherine)
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Amazing that this is all clicking into place. The older woman beside Kate is Mary McSporran on a visit from Scotland it was taken on Sunday June 1st 1967. When you say the woman in the background is one of Beatrice's daughters do you mean the one walking away towards the building?
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Mary-my mom says she knows that name...was she just a friend on Kate's??
...yes the woman walking away is Ina
Do you have any other photos of kate or the cottage ?? I'm wondering if you may have photos of my grandma or mother!!!
Torrie
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I don't know anymore about Mary I am afraid. I have other pictures from Canada but many are not annotated and I don't know who they are and are possibly from my Grandmothers side. I will go through them again and also check with my brother to see if he has anymore.
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that would be WONDERFUL!!!
I also have pictures..my mom said we would go through them and maybe send some to you if your interested...
this really is so exciting! I am the one who reaserches the family history but my Mom, her brother and many others love hearing about this stuff
Thank you so much!!!!
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Hello all - congratulations on finding your link! :D
I hate to dampen your enthusiasm but Rootschat doesn't allow posts about living people - nor photos - in order to protect their privacy and prevent identity theft.
You can post pictures of older generations though - or if you are comfortable to exchange email addresses, you can do that by Personal Message.
Let us know how you get on with the certificates - I can tell Monica et al are dying to continue the search!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi Arranroots
The ones sent are all deceased and I am mindful not to pass details of living ones. Torrie has my personal email address so she can use that for any photos. I am really grateful for the website as it has helped so my in my research.
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"Wullie"
not wishing to butt in but have you checked the Edinburgh Roll of honours list. Because David Livingston/e is on there. Does that not mean that they may hold information on his background and parents and whether he won a bursary to gain entrance etc.
marcie
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what a surprise, i google livingstone cadder and come up with you. from the few sketchy notes left behind by mother i see the name bessie (beatrice) , isle of butte, port banatine north of rothsay , father mcbride . also the names katie , willie livingstone ( mother bessie) i too have always been told we were related to david livingstone but have never been able to find the connection. i think you and i must be related. my great grandmother was janet maclean, born june 26 1864, her mother was mary livingstone, her father was charles maclean. in auchinloch, near lenzie east of glasgow, there is a small house called "morven cottage" . bill livingstone lived in that cottage. next door is a larger home where uncle alan maclean lived. mary maclean (nee livingstone) was a farm labourer at broomknowes - east of auchinloch. my granny lived in glasgow but they all went to auchinloch on weekends and often walked to wallace's well for a good luck drink. these people were always going to rothesay to visit relatives, yours i assume. because of the cottage i have always thought they must have come from morvern. enough for today, thanks for post, its given me quite a few clues. did you ever get your david livingstone links figured out? have you heard they finally deciphered his last note found clutched in his dying hand.
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Great to hear some more information re Livingstones. I take it your Gt Gt Grandmother Mary Livingstone was our connection. She was born 24.08.1831 in Lochaline, Morvern to Alan Livingstone and Janet McInnes. Alan hailed from Lanark and indeed returned there after his wife died along with Mary. Mary had 5 siblings one of whom was Duncan Livingstone who was my Great Grandfather. My side went from Morvern to Kildavaig in Argyle and then to Port Bannatyne, Isle of Bute. I was born on Bute although my Mother is Canadian. I would love to hear more of your side and happy to help with family tree data so let me know.
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How delightful to find you have replied. I was happy to get the birthdate of mary, but i wondered about that 1841 census from lachaline that someone posted for you. it lists mary as 3 years old . Is that the same mary, or even a different family. and what about the mary aged 90. i find the ancient history of the family very interesting. in some reports of david livingstone's ancestors they mention that the livingstones were hiding out on Ulva and maybe Lismore Have you got that far back yet. My branch sailed to canada and settled in toronto circa 1926. there was great aunt polly,( Mary livingstone edgar) great aunt isa (isabel) my granny . called nan but real name ann. and their mother janet edgar, nee mclean. --born at carderroch , june 26, 1864 . must get back to work, thanks again.
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Hello!!! Its nice to hear from you! Would you say this is accurate?
Allan Livingston Married Janet McInnes
had Mary Livingstone who married Charles McLean
who had Janet Mclean who married your great-grandfather last name Edger
I descend from Allan and Janet's son Duncan Livingstone who married Elizabeth McBride and had my great grandmother Beatrice Livingstone.
there is a family tree on ancestry.ca that might interest you as the maker descends from the Mclean side as well and even had your great grandmother Janet McLean in his tree.
http://trees.ancestry.ca/tree/4406870/family/pedigree
Looking forward to talking to you
Torrie :)
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I'd like to invite you all to visit the Clan MacLea (Livingstone) web forum:
http://www.clanlivingstone.info/forum/index.php
Our Clan Historian and others know a lot more about the Dr David Livingstone connections.... Although firm connections are impossible (at this point) because Dr Livingstone was vague in his own memoirs about his family and may have made a generational error himself that makes determining exact relationships difficult. But we are open to sharing information and making connections if we can!
There's also a DNA Project that is great if you have male Livingston/e relatives.
http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/Discussion%20Maclea.htm
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/livingston_maclea_dna/default.aspx
We in fact have a descendant of Dr Livingstone's brother in our Project (170+ men) and so if anyone has a male Livingston/e relative to test, we can know immediately upon testing if you are in the same male line as the Doctor! (Along with lots of other lines, like Baron Livingstone and others.)
Anyway, have a look--and please come by. We've got some great (free) discussions and have just started a brand new Clan Society with a great newsletter that you might really enjoy!
http://www.clanlivingstone.info/ClanSocietyJoin.htm
Kyle MacLea
Clan Commissioner, DNA Project co-admin
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I am also researching my Livingstone ancestor. My great great grandmother Ann Livingston (e) married William Stewart at Old Kilpatrick in 1834 and their children's names were Robert, Janet, Margaret, and John
Bob