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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: MatildaFlorence on Sunday 08 March 09 12:37 GMT (UK)
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Is it possible please to do a look up for my Eliza HELM, apparently b in SA in the 1850s. I would love to find out her birth date and info on her parents.
Apparently her mother's name may be Jessie, and may have a Scottish connection.
Eliza married John OWENS, and I think this may well have been in SA as I have not found the record in other states.
They had 2 children in QLD, Violet Vera Vida (1886) and James (1888). Therefore if they married in SA it would most likely be before 1886.
They also lived in NSW.
Many thanks to any who are kind enough to help.
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Hi Kelmark,
I cannot see a birth in SA nor this marriage. There is a marriage for an Eliza HELM but husband is wrong. (Timothy DONOVAN)
John OWEN and Eliza HELM had 2 children that I can see in Vic
Henry OWEN Chiltern 1877/14202
Luke OWEN Chiltern 1879/1490
Cheers Kris :)
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OWENS Rosianna born 1882 at Chil reg no 8035
father John mother Eliza HELM
on one of the birth registration the fathers name is John Lewis OWEN
Luke Owens died aged 1 in 1880 reg no 703
Victoria birth certificates contain a lot of usefull information
Date and place of birth;
name of child and whether present or not;
name of parents (including mother's maiden name);
occupation of parents;
ages and birthplace of parents;
date and place of marriage of parents;
previous children of their marriage noting living or deceased;
signature,
description and address of the person who gave the information;
names of witnesses;
date and place of registation.
Jenn
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Thanks Kris and Jenn!
That's wonderful! The parents marriage is not in Victoria either? What a pain :P The search continues!
This was a branch I was leaving alone because it had been hard to find anything, so I am very happy! Thanks again guys! ;D
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Are you going on her death as the one in Qld that gives her age and born in SA ?
Jenn
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Not as a concrete fact, but when I found it I was struck by the date and thought it may be the right one ???
I am open to other possibilities :).
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Okay so are you related down from one of the children?
Jenn
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Yes though Violet Vera Vida Owens b 19 Aug 1886 in Barcaldine, QLD.
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perhaps you may just have to buy a certificate if you haven't allready done that
one of the victoria births should help you along and no doubt the cheapest and quickest method
Jenn
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Mods, is it possible to have thread reopened if necessary please? :-*
I have purchased the three VIC born siblings' certs and the parents' marriage date is given on all three as 11 July 1876 in Adelaide. I know these are the right parents for my Violet (b QLD). So I wonder if the death in QLD is correct after all?
John 'Lewis' Owens comes from Hampshire, England, and Eliza from Edinburgh, Scotland.
It's possible that the children knew that mum and dad "came from" SA and put this down on Eliza's birthplace on the death in 1901 in QLD. I am planning now on buying that certificate.
In the meantime, I wonder if someone could do me the great favour of looking up marriages in 1876 again...possibly the surnames were spelt wrong? Any help appreciated. Thanks very much!
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I have searched the SAS Marriages using Groom - surname o*, and spouse given name e* and 1876...nothing. As they stated they were married in Adelaide, there shouldn't have been a problem with the registration. Some SA country registrations apparently weren't forwarded to the Adelaide Registry. Of course they may not have married at all.
What date in 1877 was Henry OWENS born?
Have you searched for Eliza's birth in Scotland or John Charles OWENS' birth in Hampshire?
Cando
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Henry was born 21 July 1877 in VIC.
I have been searching for Eliza Helm for many years in Scotland as we knew she was Scottish from family lore. These records confirm this was true.
However, I now have more accurate birth dates - confirmed by 3 children's births.
John 'Lewis' Owen(s) Abt 1851 in Hampshire
Eliza Helm Abt 1859 in Edinburgh
Would love to find birth/baptisms or even entry into Oz (now assumed into SA).
Perhaps Eliza had been married before and is not a 'maiden Helm'...back to the start of that one! It's true they could have not married but I would like to check that as much as possible. Is it possible they could have married at sea???
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Thank you for Henry's birth date.
There is no marriage registered in South Australia for a male with surname commencing with an "O" to a female with given name commencing with an "E"in 1876. So even if Eliza had been married previously, this would not alter the nil result.
When and where did John Lewis OWEN/S die?
Have you actually searched on ScotslandPeople? I don't have any credits at the moment but a search using Eliza HELM 1858-1858 - All districts - shows one result. Searching 1859-1859 yields a nil result.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
Cando
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I don't have access but found these thanks to Scotland's Family & IGI
1. ELIZABETH LEECH HELM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 05 MAY 1858 Buittle, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
2. ELIZABETH HELM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 23 MAY 1860 Stornoway, Ross And Cromarty, Scotland
I wonder if she could be either of these. Not near Edinburgh though. Also her mother's name is supposedly JESSIE.
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I wouldn't discard births away from Edinburgh. How often are people positive about a place of birth to be later proven incorrect. Families may move when chn are quite small and later the then adult children name the place in which they were raised as place of birth.
HELM doesn't appear to be a commonly occurring name so I guess either of those could be your Eliza?
What was John OWENS occupation?
Cando
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Not discarding anything at this point ;D
John was a labourer/farm labourer.
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Do you have this couple's death details please?
thanks Jenn
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Still trying to confirm, but I believe the 1901 death in QLD to be correct for Eliza. Still looking for John's. Most likely in Barcaldine or other rural QLD.
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I wonder if John (Lewis) Owens appears on Hampshire census for 1851/1861? It's a long shot but he was born around 1851.
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A 'married in' researcher of another branch has just told me that in her family records, Eliza appears as 'Elizabeth Cunningham Helm'.
I wonder if this helps or confuses? Fingers crossed there is an Eliza(beth) Cunningham Helm in some SA records. Maybe she even appears as Cunningham somewhere, although previous search may have looked for that any way.
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Did you get a copy of one of the children born in Qld ie your Violet born 1886
If so are you certain the births in Victoria are the same couple as the four birth in Queensland?
Henry OWEN born 1877 Victoria
Luke OWEN born 1879 Victoria died Victoria 1880
Rosina Owen born 1882 Victoria
Violet Owens born 1886 Queensland
James John Owens born 1888 Queensland died 1891 in Queensland
Augustus Owens born 1893 Queensland
Eliza Rebecca Owens born 1898 Queensland
Jenn
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Yes, we're sure it's the same family, they all ended up here together.
Thanks :)
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Wonder if John OWEN/s was the husband's correct name? There are no births in South Australia or Victoria to Timothy DONOVAN and Eliza HELM [with father William HELM] who married in South Australia in Nov 1876. Could HELM be HOLM :-\ :-\
Would you ask your contact for any reference numbers [ie Book and Page]for the South Australian information for Elizabeth Cunningham HELM. My marriage search was only for groom's surname 'o' and bride's given name 'e' 1876 so eliza/elizabeth's surname didn't enter the search at all.
A comparison of the bride's signature on the DONOVAN/HELM marriage reg and a later signature of your Eliza HELM may be interesting.
Would be interesting to look at ALL the available signatures of John Lewis OWEN/S to see how often the 's' appeared on the name. I note in Victoria the name is OWEN but in Qld OWENS. Have you any Qld certificates?
Cando
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I have had the same suspicions about Donovan/Helm since I heard there was a marriage in SA. Eliza still has grandchildren living, however, and they have not mentioned this to me; although this does not mean it is not so.
Helm could easily be Holm, I guess, or could have been transcribed mispelt as Holm, Holmes, Hellem, etc. The only thing is, on every single birth index and record her name is given as the same, Eliza Helm. Even when John is 'Owen', she is Helm. She is the signatory on birth entries so gave her own info (obv she signs as Owens). Also, her name was known in the family as Helm, even before we started shaking the family tree.
Can I post a copy of her signature up here? Is that allowed ???
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I only mentioned Eliza's signature as it is one way of finding if the DONOVAN/HELM marriage in SA was relevant.
See what supporting evidence your family contact has about the Elizabeth Cunningham HELM in SA records....I can see no evidence in the indexes or BISA but have found a passenger record on GRG 35/48/1 Official Assisted Passage Passenger Lists 1845 – 1886.
HELM Eliza 1876
Sequence 76/30
Book 21
Lady Jocelyn Arrived Pt Adelaide from Plymouth on 11 Oct 1876
So if it is her how could she have married on 11 July 1876 ???
Cheers
Cando
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Thank you Cando, that's wonderful. Much good genealogical luck to you. ;D
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Hi kelmark,
No problem posting a small section of a cert for clarification purposes. Posting of an entire certificate is nor permitted.
I must apologise re Helm Donovan marriage. I said Timothy - it is in fact James - father Timothy :-[
DONOVAN James 22 single father Timothy DONAVAN= HELM Eliza 21 single father William HELM 13 Nov 1876 St Paul Church Adelaide Dist Ade 109/444
Cheers Kris :)
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DONOVAN James 1876
Sequence 76/11
Book 19
Benan Arrived Pt Adelaide 13 May 1876 from London.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks very much. Looks like I may need to get that Donovan certificate a bit down the track, just to make sure.
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The following is the only John OWENS I can find on the available Assisted passenger online shipping records.
OWENS John 1877 77/13 Book 23
OWENS Patrick 1877 77/13
British Enterprise 4 Apr 1877 Arrived Pt Adelaide from London.
Cando
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Wonderful!
Also I found what I believe to be John's death thanks to Cando's Barcaldine burial tip.
A John Owens is buried there, died 1911. I believe it is correct as his sons James & Henry are buried there and also Henry's wife Alice.
No Eliza/Elizabeth though :(
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Update. I think the 1901 death for Eliza is definitely wrong. I bought the certificate.
Why I think it's wrong:
(1) It's in Rockhampton. Wrong for this family.
(2) The 'issue' is wrong. John Henry (23) Bourne (?) (19), William (16), Narty (?) (15), Augustus (6), Beatrice (5), Barty (?) (2)
(3) Although they entered through SA (we believe), the family even now remembers this ancestor is supposed to be Scottish. This Eliza's birth given as SA.
(4) No maiden given. On every other record, Eliza is Helm.
A clue for anyone that actually belongs to this Eliza. There is a cross next to Where and Age in the marriage box, although spouse is listed as John Owens. There's also one under Where Born, listed as Adelaide, South Australia, and one in the blank Parents field.
'Our' Eliza and John had Henry (VIC), Luke (VIC), Rosianna (VIC), Violet (Qld), James John (Qld), Augustus (Qld) and Eliza Rebecca (Qld). My interests lies in Violet, and I am certain of her parentage. Her birth record in Qld confirms the other children - Henry -9 , 'Rose Annie' - 4, William -2 (I didn't have William so must look) and One Male Dead (must be Luke) are the issue proceeding her. Mother 26 years. Eliza, formerly Helm. Born Edinburgh. father 31 years. John Owens. Born Hampshire, England.
That Augustus has me concerned though - although it is 2 years off the birth of the other one. I may need to revise him or get the certificate.
Any tips from here?
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That's a bugger then. Who did Violet marry and where please?
regards Jenn
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That's a bugger then. Who did Violet marry and where please?
regards Jenn
She married Bertrind Charles White in Qld, who had a previous NSW marriage to Caroline Brown (issue Beatrice).
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Have you purchased John Owens death certificate is so does it have if he was married or a widower.?
Could Eliza remarried?
thanks Jenn
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Have you purchased John Owens death certificate is so does it have if he was married or a widower.?
Could Eliza remarried?
thanks Jenn
No, have not purchased yet.
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I wondered if you had noted that the registration for Eliza Rebecca OWEN (C309) and Augustus OWEN (C310) are without father noted.
They are consecutive registrations though the births were years apart. Meaning they were registered at the same time. Unless there is some sort of typing error and they were twins.
To my way of thinking, this means John was not their father and may they well have been living separately.
Sue
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Interesting, another potential path. "SUSPECTED LUNACY
Eliza Owens was charged on suspicion of lunacy. The patient is in the hospital,
and was there visited by the Police Magistrate. Drs. Cook and Smith certify that
she is an imbecile. It is ordered that she be sent to the asylum for the insane at
Goodna, the order to be suspended for 80 days".
1900 'Barcaldine Police Court.', The Western Champion and General Advertiser for the Central-Western Districts (Barcaldine, Qld. : 1892 - 1922), 22 December, p. 11.
Daughter Violet was born in Barcaldine.