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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Salford Lass on Thursday 12 March 09 11:03 GMT (UK)
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Would appreciate any help in confiming what this is, I think its a Naval Cap Badge, but I am not 100% sure.
Thanks
Debbie
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It looks more like a yaeger horn, nornally a light infantry or rifles emblem?
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Hi
I am getting more confused by the minute lol, I have one in the Navy and one in the Raf and Possibly one in the South Lancashire Prince of Wales Volunteers (no Idea who though).
Would any of that tie in with this badge????
Debbie
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Google images "light infantry badges " ;D ;D
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It is actually a "Bugle Horn" ;D
But most assuredly Army... ;)
Looks more like a collar dog, by the cotter pin to the rear.
Without embellishments or designations, the only one that fits is Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry
The South Lancs Rifle Volunteers would have had a 48 in the centre...
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Hi
All the other medals are for the South Lancashires, so I now don't understand where this one fits in at all???/
Mmmmm
Debbie
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And the last one
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Hi
All the other medals are for the South Lancashires, so I now don't understand where this one fits in at all???/
Mmmmm
Debbie
Well that is a collar dog and shoulder title for the South Lancs!
But where your Bugle Horn comes in I know not!!
It was quite common for soldiers to swap / collect other Regts badges....
And sometimes put them on a "Hate Belt" like this...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l102/scrimnet/IMG_0249.jpg)
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Hi Debbie,
What details of the South Lancs serviceman do you have.
Pete.
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ooops!
How did I miss the cap badge!
The last one....
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Pete
I have no idea, all I know is it has to be family, and there is definatley 1 possible.
All I do know is all the medals I have photos for are for WW2, and that this Guy is probably brother to Herbert and Walter Darbyshire (see my other thread), but that is all I have to go on, his name was James Darbyshire, but if it was him, he survived, and there is no other info???? The only other possible is a William Howcroft, who also survived, all others are accounted for or would have been too old for WW2
Since visiting my hubbys Aunt and getting the photos, she has been in hospital very Ill, so I can't approach her at the minute with any more questions, so am doing my searching ad hoc so to speak.
Thanks
Debbie
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Just a note:- The Darbyshire boys were born between 1912 and 1922, James being the Eldest.
Could Walter or Herbert have been in the South Lancashire Regiment, before going into the RAF or Royal Navy?????
The sisters of the Family also did war work, now none of them as far as I am aware needed to as the Family were all in reserved occupations ie Farmers, Steel Works etc, and there is only James, up to now, who didn't do any War Work??? Which while strange isn't impossible.
Sorry if I am rambling, just trying to put it together, and if anyone can help??
Debbie
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Debbie,
I think that the South Lancs cap badge pre-dates WW2. It may even pre-date WW1.
The closest to it that I can see is the Boer War !
This could be the generation above Herbert and Walter.
The Boer War regimental lists are available - I dont have a copy but maybe someone on the ww1 forum might have them?
This isnt gospel - the badge is traditionally bi-metal and there were quite a few variations - but it may explain why you cant fit the badges to the generation you are looking at.
Pete.
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Thanks Pete
I am getting more confused by the minute with this one, will work it out though lol
Debbie
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Debbie,
The regimental museum is in Preston, its called the Queens Lancashire Regiment museum.
One of their people will i'm sure take one look at the badges and tell you straightaway what they are.
I am reasonably confident it wont be ww2 - I think the collar tabs make it older.
They dont do e.mail enquiries, but I am sure it will be useful.
Regards
Pete
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The collar dogs and badge remained the same from 1898 up until amalgamation with the East Lancs in 1958... ;)
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Oh and of course the local Home Guard in WW2 would have worn that cap badge as well...
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So not the Boer war then....
I'm still going to go for earlier rather then later. The size of the Ich Dien typeface and thinness of line above it are swaying me that way.
Were the Home Guard attached to a specific local regiment (if so i assume it would be the 6th Bn, Home Duties?) or were they autonamous, I havent started looking for them yet !
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In relation to the original post, Ox & Bucks does look most promising.
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So not the Boer war then....
I'm still going to go for earlier rather then later. The size of the Ich Dien typeface and thinness of line above it are swaying me that way.
Were the Home Guard attached to a specific local regiment (if so i assume it would be the 6th Bn, Home Duties?) or were they autonamous, I havent started looking for them yet !
From 3 Aug 1940 County Regt badges were authorised for use by local HG units...
6th bn Home Duties are not HG, they are part of the "normal" Regt.
TBH The badge is rather un dateable other than the dates given, as it didn't change at all, apart from the short lived 1915 all brass economy issue,and the just as short lived 1943 plastic economy issue...
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So I would be right in thinking that the Home Guard were an autonomous organisation, who adopted the badge of the local regiment in which they were based, but were not part of that regiment.
Did they have a shoulder flash (or similar) which denoted them as Home Guard.
The economy badge, thats brown & brown as opposed to differing bi-metal colours?
Although I can see that the badges are virtually the same for each period, there are minor differences in lettering size, thickness of certain details etc. I have put this down to them being from different manufacturers, and I have also come across some reproduction badges.
The badge in the photo has been very well polished and has lost a fair amount of detail, were the medals likewise so well polished?
Scrimnet, if by any chance you have details of 2nd Bn movements from arrival in India I would be most grateful, they appear to be swallowed up and then re-appera in February 1945 (Irrawaddy Crossing) where they are described as 'newly arrived'! Very little info. on the net and even less in print, and Prestons a long way for me to go...
Regards
Pete.
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Hi Guys
Still looking into this one, Pete reading your last post, we have no medals lol, so wouldn't know if they were polished or not (highley I mean).
We have gone back a generation and am now looking at other possibles, but I still think its WW2.
If I find anything I will post it here.
Debbie
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So I would be right in thinking that the Home Guard were an autonomous organisation, who adopted the badge of the local regiment in which they were based, but were not part of that regiment.
Did they have a shoulder flash (or similar) which denoted them as Home Guard.
The economy badge, thats brown & brown as opposed to differing bi-metal colours?
Although I can see that the badges are virtually the same for each period, there are minor differences in lettering size, thickness of certain details etc. I have put this down to them being from different manufacturers, and I have also come across some reproduction badges.
The badge in the photo has been very well polished and has lost a fair amount of detail, were the medals likewise so well polished?
Scrimnet, if by any chance you have details of 2nd Bn movements from arrival in India I would be most grateful, they appear to be swallowed up and then re-appera in February 1945 (Irrawaddy Crossing) where they are described as 'newly arrived'! Very little info. on the net and even less in print, and Prestons a long way for me to go...
Regards
Pete.
Yes the HG were quite autonomous...
Yes, I have oodles of variants on the Northamptonshire cap badge, and a lot of them are from differing makers and molds.
I could be Boer War...I did a typo earlier with the 1902... ::) I have corrected to 1898
Some repros are actually not...A lot of Regts in India had locally sourced and made items from the "choggie shops"...
As for the movements of 2 SLancs,
Here's what I have...
1939 Bombay
1940.June UK 29 Inf Bde
1942.Mar.21 at sea 29 Bde, Force 121
1942.Apr.22 South Africa 29 Bde, Force 121
1942.Apr.28 at sea 29 Bde, Force 121
1942.May.05 Madagascar 29 Bde, Force 121
1942.Aug.20 at sea
1942.Aug.26 East Africa 29 Bde, Force 121
1942.Sept.05 at sea
1942.Sept.10 Madagascar 29 Bde, Force 121
1942.Oct.16 at sea 29 Bde
1942.Ocy.24 South Africa 29 Bde
1943.Jan.08 at sea
1943.Jan.26 India
1944.April Burma 7 Ind Div
1945 UK
1946 Malta
1947 Trieste
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Thanks for that Scrimnet, I really am going to have to go to the museum.
Debbie, I have ordered extracts from the army lists/harts , but they only cover Officers/Nco's, so if the owner was an infantryman then it wont help, I will look for darbyshire in the first instance.
Regards
Pete.
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War dairies may be useful, but I doubt you'll glean much from the Army List I'm afraid...
The Regt Association may be of more use.... ;)
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Pete
Have been through my tree the only possibles are a John Herbert Darbyshire b.1886 and a Frederick Darbyshire b. 1889, their brother Alfred Edwin father of Herbert an Walter was born in 1881, but we are pretty certain it won't be him. They were all born Cheshire, not sure if that is significant or not??
Debbie
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Pete
Have been through my tree the only possibles are a John Herbert Darbyshire b.1886 and a Frederick Darbyshire b. 1889, their brother Alfred Edwin father of Herbert an Walter was born in 1881, but we are pretty certain it won't be him. They were all born Cheshire, not sure if that is significant or not??
Debbie
Cheshire...South Lancs...If I recall the borders have ebbed and flowed for many years...Sometimes Cheshire....Sometimes South Lancs...Sometimes Gtr Manchester!!
And of course...people did move house...Even then!
My grandfather was born in 1877 (!!) and he was HG during WW2....
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Hi Debbie,
The South Lancs barracks was the Orford Barracks, in Warrington - this was Lancashire, but following the boundary changes (1974?) became part of Cheshire.
The two lads would have been 28/25 at the time of the first world war, so this would be a first approach, there is no record on the regimental list but as mentioned, this would only show them if officers.
I will have a look on the web tonight and see what I can find.
Regards
Pete.