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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: grantleydawn on Thursday 12 March 09 20:53 GMT (UK)
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I purchased a baptism entry from SP and I need help to understand what it is saying. It appears to be a birth "out of wedlock".
The baptism is of Jeane CRAWFOORD, father Johnne CRAWFOORD, mother Margaret KENNEDIE. 8th Jan 1629
My initial attempt is;
Margaret KENNEDIE a notable ???????? has a ?????? to be baptized at ?? ???????? of Mr Johnne MacNELL and Mr David MITCHELL. ?? ?????? ?? named Jeane ?? ???? S????? Thomas f????d??. This matter as yet ??? not ?????????? ?? before ?? Session ?? ????? ?? ??????? father ????? ?? ?????? to ?? ???? Johnne CRAWFOORD ?? ??? ????? of ????????.
I hope my attachment works. I have not done this before.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Grantley
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Looks like she was a"notable whoore" to me.
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This is what I can make out:
Margaret Kennedie a notable whoore has a bairn to be baptized at the ? of Mr John MacNeil and Mr David Mitchell. The bairn is/be named Jeane ? John ? Thomas ? the natural matter yet not ? before the session to ? the bairn's father ? ? alleged to be one John Crawford ? to the Laird of ?
? = not sure
Gadget
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...baptized at the direction of ....
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I'll give it a go and add some words that are familiar from kirk sessions that were more legible. Margaret kennedie a notable whoore has a bairn(e) to be baptized at the invitation of Mr. Johne ??? and Mr. David Mitchell ....... the bairn(e) is named Jeane ........????????? Later: ....not compeared before the (kirk) session to ?????? the bairn(e)'s father .....
That's the best I can do for now! The word compeared is frequently found in the sessions, as is the word 'admonished'. Happy I was born in the 60's!
Scatterling
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Does it read that John Crawfoord is the factor or servant to the Laird - can't quite make that word out
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My two pennyworth
..... at the direction of Mr Johnne Maxwell.......Jeane w..(meaning witness?) Johnne Smyth Thomas Saunders The mother as yet has not compeared before the session to r??sie.....her bairns father whom she alleges to be one Johnne Crawfoord ... to the.....
I agree, Gadget, it does look like it could be "factor"
Nell
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I think Johnnie's occupation starts with a long 's' - see the word 'session' in the lines above...
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Agree, Prue. The other fs are all crossed - but what he was to the Laird is baffling :-\
Gadget
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Are there any Scots or redundant words for servant that you can think of? The middle letter looks like a 'v', but the word doesn't end with 'ant' ...servite?
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Was thinking of Servitor, Prue - there's a superscript r at the end by the looks of it.
Gadget
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I didn't see the little r there...you could well be right, Gadget :)
So, servitor as in an assistant to the Laird, rather than an ordinary general servant, do you think?
If Grantley can tell us which parish this record comes from, we might be able to work out where the Laird was the Laird of...it seems to start with an S, and possibly ends with a double S.
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Maybe Angus or Fife by previous postings :-\
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Edinburgh* :)
* IGI Extracted
Added - not a lot of help though - can't think of anywhere close by and Edinburgh would have been visited by lairds from all over :-\
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Wow. I just popped home at lunch time & find that I have missed all the action. Thank you all for your contribution. Sorry I wasn't here to contribute. When I get home tonight, I will post what I find.
I noticed 5 baptisms (1622-1632) that may be the children of the father, parents Johnne CRAWFOORD (or CRAWFURD) & Margaret HARLAW (or HARLAN). I will buy some baptisms (or all of then) to try & identify the missing bits.
Regards
Grantley
South Australia
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Putting all the bits together ...
Margaret Kennedie a notable whoore has a bairne
to be baptized at the direction of Mr Johnne Max
well and Mr david Mitchell. the bairne ?-? named
Jeane w. Johnne Smyth. Thomas kennedie.
The mother as yet has not compeared before the
session to ?verifie? her bairnes father whom she
alleges to be ane Johnne Crawfoord servitor to the
Laird of ?-?
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To help identify the Laird, I purchased the baptism of children of Johnne, before and after the one being translated.
The first one is of Agnes in 1627;
Johnne CRAWFURD ? Margaret HARLAW a. d. N Agnes w. George CRAWFURD Goldsmyth Thomas ? Baxter.
The second one is of Margaret in 1630;
John CRAWFOORD Agent Margaret HARLAW a. d N Margaret wt. Johnne Lairds? Robert and William CRAWFOORDE.
Does this help with our translation or do I need to purchase more baptisms?
Regards
Grantley
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I've enlarged the mising word but not sure if it makes it any easier :-\ The other baptisms were also in Edinburgh.
Gadget
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On the same page, I found some similar writing.
Grantley
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Hi grantley,
Yes, it's the long S we were talking about - we think the place name of the Laird starts with one, and may contain one or two more at the end. :-\ I'm afraid I'm not a local and don't have enough knowledge of the area to hazard a guess as to what it might be.
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Margaret Kennedie a notable whoore has a bairne
to be baptized at the direction of Mr Johnne Max
well and Mr David Mitchell. The bairne [nr or ne?] named
jeane wt[nesses] Johnne Smyth Thomas Kennedie
The mother as yet has not compeared before the
session to vilefie the bairnes father whom she
alleges to be ane Johnne Crawfoord servitor to the
Laird of F[...]s
There is something written after the word 'bairne' in the 3rd line that I can't make out, but it could just be a clerical error. Also, I can't make out where the Laird is from - looks like it begins with F and ends in S, which doesn't narrow it down that much! I don't think it's a long S as it doesn't have as long a descender as the S in session or servitor.
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The Laird needn't necessarily have been the laird of anywhere near Edinburgh. John Crawford could have been his servitor at his Edinburgh residence - hence Agent in one of the baptism records.
Nothing coming up starting with S that looks close. Possible alternatives, if it begins with F could be: Forres, Fintry, an abreviated Feteresso and so on :-\
Gadget
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Hi Grantley,
There might well be two quite different Johnne CRAWFURD/CRAWFOORDs.
So I'm far from sure whether it's worth spending more credits.
Up to you. ;D
I'm puzzled by Johnne's occupation in the first of the new extracts. I wonder if anyone has any ideas ...
Cheers,
JAP
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I'm puzzled by Johnne's occupation in the first of the new extracts. I wonder if anyone has any ideas ...
Cheers,
JAP
The nearest that I can get is wriator - could it be writer (?solicitor) which fits with the servitor (can be a secretary) and the agent of other records.
The first letter is the same as the w (short for witnesses) on the next line.
Gadget
can't see anything else:
http://www.scotsfamily.com/occupations.htm
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Excellent suggestion!!
Though, accepting the 'wr', I think it then reads 'wreater'.
And the DSL has, under 'writer', 'wreater' as a possible spelling.
JAP
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It does go with his other occupations doesn't it :)
I was on my small laptop this morning but as soon as I looked at it on my large monitor, I saw the w very clearly
I see the e now rather than the i :D
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I've been looking at the Wills/Testaments on SP for a John Crawford - there are some in Edinburgh but also my attention was drawn to this one:
21 Jan 1641 in Wester Auchendonane, parish of Luss, Glasgow CC - TD
Now the first letter of the place where the Laird was of could be a defective L . There are cetainly some smudge marks below and if one looks at the form of the L in Laird, it is a possiblility.
I'm not very familiar with Luss and whether it had a Laird but........................
Gadget
Added - it's near Loch Lomond : http://www.loch-lomond.net/villages/luss/luss.html
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I have purchased 2 more baptisms - neither gave an occupation, or clue.
But one did have a witness with an occupation of 'wreater', to confirm the earlier deduction.
For my records, can you please fill in my gaps (I am getting better at reading these documents now)
My guess;
Johnne CRAWFURD, Margaret HARLAW a. S N George w ?ol?home Humo McGeorge La??un wreater And George CRAWFOORD Cordiner.
Regards
Grantley
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I'm not brilliant at this script but I'd say it is McGeorge Layburn.
Also, there were some wills/testaments for John Crawfords,of Edinburgh who were cordiners (cordwainers).
Gadget
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To hopefully bring this to a conclusion, I purchased all the baptisms.
He is crearly described as a Wreator in 1622 & 1626.
The only one with any possible clues is the one in 1620. It is 8 years earlier than the one we are trying to solve. This is my attempt.
Johnne CRAWFURD servitour to Mr James LAMATYNE, Margaret HARLAW a S N James w Sr James ? Laird of Mon?land & ? ? ? merchant.
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Johnne Crawfurd Servitour to Mr James bannatyne Mar
garet Harlaw a S.N. James w. Sr James Cle
Land of Monkland knight Wm kincaid Merchant
That is to say - Sir James CLELAND of Monkland knight
If you Google for
"Sir James Cleland"
there are quite a lot of hits.
Here's an extract from electricscotland:
"CLELAND, a surname belonging to an old family on Lanarkshire, and derived from the lands of that name in the parish of Dalzeil. The Clelands of that ilk were hereditary foresters to the old earls of Douglas. ... About the beginning of the seventeenth century, Sir James Cleland purchased the barony of Monkland from Sir Thomas Hamilton of Binning, first earl of Haddington, but his son and heir, Ludovick Cleland, sold it to James, marquis of Hamilton. On 6th September 1615, this Sir James Cleland of Monkland was, with two others, indicted for trial, for treasonably resetting Jesuits, hearing of mass, &c., offences very seriously punished in those days, but the diet was deserted against them. ..."
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Gadget, Just a very trivial point for interest.
A Google for
Laird + Luss
finds that there was indeed such a person.
They were COLQUHOUNs.
Apparently the current Laird of Luss is the 31st such.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Colquhoun
A Google for
"Laird of Luss"
even turns up a mention in the introduction to Walter SCOTT's Rob Roy:
'... There had been a long and bloody feud betwixt the MacGregors and the Laird of Luss, head of the family of Colquhoun, a powerful race on the lower part of Loch Lomond. ..."
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/scott/walter/robroy/introduction1.html
JAP
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Well, I must send a huge thank you, to everyone who has contributed.
I am so glad that I sought help.
This has been a great experience and I have learnt so much.
I now have heaps to explore and research.
Thankyou again
Grantley
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Hello again Grantley,
I believe that the baxter (baker) in the first extract in reply #16 is Thomas SPENCE.
So it reads (you already had virtually all of it):
Johnne Crawfurd wreater Margaret Harlaw a. d. N
Agnes w. George Crawfurd Goldsmyth Thomas spence Baxt.
JAP
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The extract at reply #27 is difficult!
Johnne Crawfurd Margaret Harlaw a S. N.
George w. ?-? Hume. Mr George ?Laybun?
wreater And George Crawfurd Cordiner
The letter after w. is exactly like the 'A' in 'Agnes' in the extract at reply #16. Though nothing like the 'A' in 'And' immediately below in this extract.
I'm not even sure whether the 'A' is a first initial or part of the name ...
In full, it looks like Aselchome but I can't find such a name/word. I've been trying to make it into something like Axholme but even if I could ... And perhaps what I see as 'c' is a poorly formed 't'. Perhaps felthame ...
The surname of the other witness is a problem. It looks like La??un but ... Perhaps Layburn as has been suggested but the 'y' is poorly formed (though the lack of a curve to the right at the top suggests that it is neither a long 's' nor an 'f'), the 'b' is not like 'b' in other extracts where there is a curve to the right at the top (it's more like an 's' at the end of a word), and I can't make out an 'r' . But perhaps this is a different scribe? Perhaps it could even be Lassun (Lawson)...
More suggestions/comments?
JAP
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Re #27,
I have the benefit of the whole document, which really isn't much help to me.
The first letter of the witness must be an A, as appeared in Archibald below. Using that image, the 5th letter looks like a c.
That makes a name of Asolchome, to me. Not very convincing.
The second witness would most probably be George LASSUN. The second s is similar to the style the scribe has used elsewhere in the document.
Neither of the witnesses are possible ancestors and so my main aim is satisfied. But I know, the challenge still exists.
Regards
Grantley
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Hi Grantley
A final word from me :)
If you could get to Edinburgh at some point, it would be worth looking through the Kirk Session minutes to see if Margaret Kennedie did appear before the session to name the father of Jeane and see what punishment was given to Johne Crawfoord.
Good Luck
Gadget
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I keep looking at the "Laird of Luss" and I am not convinced.
Doesn't the first letter look more like the K in the name KENNEDIE?
Followed by il as in vilifie.
That makes Kil?ss, short for ??
I have no idea what the missing letter would be, if I am on the right track.
Regards
Grantley
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Hi again Grantley,
Quick comment.
Be careful about misreading 'e'!
And I cannot see 'vilifie' at all - can't see an 'i' or an 'l'. I transcribed it (reply #15) as 'verifie'.
I have not come across 'vilifie' (or 'vilefie' as transcribed by AA) in such records.
It would be useful, as I said earlier, if AA could tell us if this is a usage with which he/she is familiar, or which he/she has seen previously.
As Gadget says, it would be indeed be very interesting to find out what the Kirk Session had to say on the matter!!
Assuming that Johnne CRAWFURD/CRAWFOORD was pretty well known (which he must have been if he was the same chappie in all the records), one assumes that something must have been recorded about his transgression. Though it was probably poor Margaret KENNEDIE who bore the brunt (the baptism record already shows the - dare I say bigoted - views of the Kirk). Added to which it seems that Johnne CRAWFURD (if it's the same one throughout) had many friends in high places ... What more needs to be said! Gadget, I wonder who might have been the one to bear any punishment. Perhaps poor Margaret, the so-called "well known whoore". :'(
Excuse my cynicism. ::)
JAP
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I agree with the you about the attitudes of the Kirk elders, JAP.
Poor Margaret was likely to have been brought before the congregation or, like poor Margaret Roddan in Dumfries in 1689:
Thomas Paterson is said to be guilty of fornication with her; she is appointed to appear at the public place of repentance...and fined £3 Scots
http://www.dgcommunity.net/historicalindexes/dfskirksession.aspx
But our Laird is still not identified :-\
Gadget
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Oh Gadget, I should hold back but one does despair.
Thomas PATERSON, in your example, no doubt became - or already was! - an Elder of the Kirk!
I have a rell (not actually an ancestor of theirs) on my children's paternal side who was required to sit on a stool outside the Kirk in the Orkneys in sackcloth and ashes for many many Sundays. Her sin? She'd served beer at a local beerhouse ... Truly. Nothing more. Not even a smidgin of a mention of fornication (which was clearly only a female sin) ...
Just as children often had only fathers - mothers obviously being irrelevant.
From another thread - I looked up records on the NAS and came across a murder case. Obviously, when I looked into it, a disturbed mother had committed infanticide. But the poor wee victim was described only as the child of the father. Hello?!
As for the case found in her ancestry by a member of my local Genie Soc where a child was convicted of incest with her father, and that child was sent to prison for her sin ...
Better get down off my soapbox! It's all far too sad.
Grantley, that appalling descriptor "a notable whoore" has surely struck all too many of us as grotesque.
Regards,
JAP
PS: Yes, still looking for where the Laird might have hailed from. Though perhaps not all that important. James (if the same one in all the records - as seems likely) was obviously pretty senior. Probably wouldn't have been criticized in the Kirk Sessions - but it would be very interesting to find the record!
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I always feel quite sad when an interesting thread comes to an end. I'd love to find out about what happened to young Jean Crawford and her mother, Margaret Kennedy, and all the other players in the story.
Gadget
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I don't know the fate of Margaret KENNEDIE. I can't find anything on Johnne CRAWFURD/CRAWFOORD other than the baptism records. I just can't exactly tie him to all the other CRAWFOORDs in Edinburgh at that time.
Jeane's marriage entry simply reads;
Edinburgh Parish, 9 July 1658 Johne LAW, Peuderer, Jeane CRAWFOORD
Johne LAW was a burgess and guild-brother of Edinburgh.
I know of one child, Agnes LAW bapt 25 Aug 1661.
The line continues down to my granddaughters. At least we know that my 9g grandmother was the daughter of a 'notable whoore'. The name of my grandfather is 'not recorded'. But that is another story.
Regards
Grantley