RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (North Riding) => Topic started by: alllegs on Friday 20 March 09 20:24 GMT (UK)
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Fisrtly I apologise to anyone who has read about my Williams' saga already! If thats you (Jane!) stop now, 'cos they'll do you head in even more!
As everyone I was thrilled to find the North Riding now online for 1911, I assumed it'd answer all my prayers..... Yeah right!!!
Basically I have a family as follows
1891 census
William Williams (born at some point in history in some part of Wales...) lodging in the same house as future wife Jane Thomas (born 1872, Witton Park, Durham)
November 28th 1891 Jane and William marry in Middlesbrough Register Office. Both are residing at 50 Wood Street, Grangetown.
On 24th October 1892 daughter number 1 arrives, Margaret Williams, born at 41 Stapylton St, Grangetown.
Then on May 30th 1894 daughter number 2, Martha Jane (aka Pattie) Williams arrives. Address as above.
Then at somepoint in 1895 daughter number 3, Rachel Wiliams is born.
On October 20th 1895, dad, William Williams died at the same address aged 32 of TB.
The 1901 census comes and goes, only Margaret is to be found living with her aunt (Jane's sister) Charlotte Steel and family. No sign of Jane, Martha or Rachel.
On July 8th 1902 Jane died of a Cerebral Haemorrhage, aged 28, at the Union Workhouse. Another sister, Elizabeth Ann Hewitt is in attendance.
Roll on the 1911 - Martha is living with Aunt Elizabeth Ann Hewitt and family - no sign of Rachel or Margaret.
Fast forward to the 1920's - Margaret marries Edward Hubbard, Rachel married Patrick Donaghy and Martha emigrates to the US.
Please can anyone shed some light on the missing 1901 and 1911 links?
I would LOVE to know where they are.
I've chesked Jane's other siblings and cannot find Rachel or Margaret with any of them on the 1901 or 1911. None are in the workhouse in 1901.
PLEASE HELP!!!!!
Legs
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
When I had my email yesterday to inform me that 1911 for North Yorks was available I did think of you and William Williams
Good luck with it hun, I am loosing the will with one of mine at the mo
Take care
Jane :D
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Hallo Alllegs - only joined this site yesterday and your plea hit me between the eyes. I am of course searching my family tree. Grandfather - William (Henry) Williams, born Monmothshire, Wales in 1881. died Grangetown 1960 (Birchington Avenue) Married Sara Ann Maltby. Guess where they lived for a while - Wood Street in Grangetown. Now this is where its gets scary. He and his wife moved to 46 Stapylton Street and my father William (Thomas) Williams was born there in 1909.
Co-incidence or what? Unfortunately all the seniors in the family are now dead and when I started on this search I didnt even know my Grandfathers Christian names. I was only 19 when he died and 21 when Gran followed him two years later. My father died age 83 in 1991 in Skelton. His family were very much Grangetown people all their lives. They married into the Garbutt, Grant, Garton and Pearson families. All Grangetown families.
I have not been concentrating on the Williams side of my family for very long but I have discovered that most of the million William Williams clan originated from Monmothshire, and graduated first to Stockton and then to Grangetown to work in Doman Long.
My father moved to London after leaving the Green Howards and joined the Police Force. He met and married my Mum in 1939. I was born in 1940 and my brother Howard (Bill) Williams and I were evacuated to Grangetown to live with my Aunt for the duration of the War. When he left the Police in 1959 we moved to Redcar and he had another career in ICI Wilton. I was odd woman out, I met and married a Dutchman and lived for 25 years in Holland. Am now back in England and living in Tunbridge Wells. My mother is 96 and is in a nursing home in Tunbridge Wells but she is a bit ga-ga now and can't remember much about Dad's family.
What I find fascinating about this tale is that our families MUST have been friends with each other, they only lived a few doors away in Stapylton Street. I don't know how long they lived there but I have a postcard that Dad sent to his parents when he was 18 and in the Green Howards in China and it was sent to Teesport.
Right now I have to trace Grandad back to Wales - I know his Father was Evan and Mother Mary. Both born 1840. They lived at 93 Vickers Street in Eston in 1891 but I have to try and go back further. Trouble is everyone is called William or Evan Williams.
Would love to hear your history. Cheers. Janet
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Hiya Janet,
What a huge conicidence.... I'm very intreigued now!
Funny to that you now live down south as I do too - near Worthing.
I'm on my Easter hols the week after next, we should meet for coffee and compare notes. I'm away the 1st week but free most of the second week.
PM me if you fancy.
Legs
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Hi Legs
Sounds a great idea. Are you a school teacher? Get in touch a bit nearer the time and we can firm up a date and place. Will give me time to do some more digging. Can't for the life of me find out what number Wood Street they lived. I visited them there when I was 12. Will try my cousins in the North but they are a lot younger than me so they probably won't be much use. cheers Janet
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Excellent.
I don't know what number my lot lived at on Wood Street either. I visited a year or 2 ago - Wood and Stapylton no longer exist unfortunatly.
Yes, I am a teacher!
Legs
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Hi Legs
Just spent the last few hours trying to untangle your problem. Who are your direct decendents? Are you interested in William Williams family? think I might have pinpointed him to a birth in Freforest, Glamorgan in 1863 from the 1881 census. Do you have the marriage certificate for him and Jane. The name of his father would help. Had no luck with your other problems. Early days yet. Having said that there are a million William Williams's. Lucky mine had middle names. What websites do you use. I have a yearly sub with Ancestry and they are great. Havn't delved into 1911 yet, was waiting for the North Riding.
Luckily I inherited thru an Uncle on my mother's side the discharge papers of my Great Great Great Grandfather from the Royal Marines in 1867, so that was a great place to start. He was born in 1826. So of course I might have to go to Bristol to sort out his parents etc.
Shame that Wood Street and Stapylton Street have gone, but honestly they were the pits. Gran and Grandad had a front parlour, back room with open fire and a lean too kitchen with a lean to toilet attached to that. No bathroom. Just two bedrooms upstairs. I guess in those days they were glad to have a home. I can remember how everybody greeted everybody else as they went about their business. I can remember my brother and I waiting in anticipation on a Friday night for a chap to come home tanked up with Meths, he used to prance half clothed all over the street much to the delight of us kids.
If you can give me a few more hints I will dig further into your brick wall. Cheers Janet
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Wow, you have been busy.
I am VERY interested in William Williams family. I have no hard facts prior the 1891 census. I am descended from Jane and Williams 1st daughter, Margaret, she married Edward Hubbard and had 3 children, the youngest being my gran.
I do have Jane and Williams marriage cert. They married in Middlesbrough Register Office on November 28th 1891. William was 25 years old, a bachelor and an Iron Worker. His father was James Williams a general labourer. Witnesses were Thomas Lewis and William Jackson - I have no idea who they are.
I have sorted Jane's family. Coincidently her mother Rachel Thomas nee Edwards goes on to marry a James Williams after Jane's father died in an accident at the Iron works.
Incidently having dug out the marriage certificate I have noticed that they lived at 50 Wood Street.
Thanks
Legs
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Hi Legs - this is getting exciting. Thanks for info - the William I found is a dud so back to the drawing board.
Did you notice that Margaret and Charlotte lived at 86 Stapylton Street. (1901 Census) Oh how I wish my Auntie Jean (Dad's sister) was still alive, she lived in Grangetown her whole life and was a mine of information on families which I never appreciated when I was younger.
Curious to know how one so young as yourself is so interested in ancestors. Most of us come to it much later in life. I am revelling in it - maybe because I have the time. I am of course retired and since my husband's death my time is all my own. Having said that I have a three bed house and large garden that I have to look after.
Back to the drawing board. Will get back to you again soon.
Cheers, Janet
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Morning,
Yes, I had noticed the Stapylton Street address on the 1901 for Charlotte and Margaret, I wish your auntie Jean was still alive too!
I've always been interested in family stories, my gran (now 90) wrote a short story about her grandmother years before I was born and when we were kids she used to re-tell the tales. That I guess sparked an interest but it wasn't until I was in year 6 at my primary school when we learned about the Victorians and looked at the 1881 census, we then walked around the village and found the houses thes people lived in and where they are buried in the church yard that I really go interested. I didn't really begin searching until my early 20's however, when I had access to the internet.
Anyway I'm fascinated, hooked, and totally obsessed now!!!
Shame that William was a dud.
Must take the dog out, speak soon
Legs
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Hi once again
Spent another few hours on 'our' problem last night. There are thousands of Thomas Williams' too, frustrating. Is your Gran still clear headed? Although my mother was starting to regress when I first started to pump her for family details she still came up with a few valuable gems.
Ask your Gran to think carefully when she is alone and jot down anything she can remember when she was told the family history. What is needed is a place of birth for William - we know it was Wales, but there are hundreds - we need one little clue to start the ball rolling. I guess there was nothing on his death certificate?
I had a flutter with Thomas Lewis and William Jackson both born in Wales and both have strong connections to lodgings in Sheffield - early days. Worth trying to see if William too lodged there before coming to Middlesbrough.
As you say this geneology becomes obsessive. I have to force myself to wait till the weekends or nothing else would ever get done.
Happy dog walking,
Janet
PS My mission since the off has been tracing my cousin,......... born on September 3rd, 1943. His father was Mum's brother who was killed in Caen in 1944. Mother remarried and family lost touch. Her father was William John Brown well known MP of his day and I traced him down to his death, which was witnessed by his daughter, Marjorie Jean Gearon - so I had found her and her new married name but it got me no further and I am still looking.
Moderator Comment: Name of living person removed in accordance with rootschat policy
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The gran I mentioned earlier is my dad's mum, the Williams' are on my mum's side. Mums mum (William Williams granddaughter) knows nothing about her mother's family. Unfortunatly Margaret Williams (William and Janes eldest daughter) died when gran was only 6 months old. Gran and her 2 older brothers were brought up by her father and her paternal grandparents.
I have managed to trace living relatives (now in the US) who are descended from Elizabeth Ann Hewitt nee Thomas whom Martha was living with in 1911. They are a bit younger than my gran but lived in the next street in North Ormseby. Neither knew anything about each other. When Martha emigrated to Florida she used to send my gran pretty dresses, shoes and jewellery. This ceased when Elizabeth Ann Hewitt's daughter Evelyn emigrated to live with Martha.
We think something 'dodgy' happened as gran was never allowed to talk about her mother. Dick (the cousin in USA) seems to remember Martha going to Blackpool at some point as she was mistreated after her parents died. She never talked much about her past.
Hence, all gran knew was that her mother was called Margaret Williams and she died when gran was a baby. She believed she was the only living member of the Williams line.
This was another reason I got into genealogy, to help find out something about gran's mother and her family.
We have no idea, other than Wales, about where William was born. A needle in a haystack!
Legs
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I think I have found Margaret Williams on the 1911 census.
Resiging with Thomas Shewell and family at No 5 Turner Street, Coatham, Redcar
Margaret Williams, 17, General domestic servant, born Grangetown
The age is a bit out but she seems to be the only MW born in Grangetown and all my servants seem to have incorrect ages
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Well done - every little helps. We are sunk if we can't find where William was born. Father Thomas James is our only hope. Tracing his own marriage certificate will point us in the right direction but that is a lot of legwork. Its funny that he used the 'James' on William's marriage certificate but I couldn't pinpoint a single Thomas James on the 1891 Census. Found a few plain Thomas' in Thornaby as a lodger, widow etc.
Will dig some more tomorrow.
Janet
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Argh!
I think I've confused things! William Williams father is James Williams - not James Thomas as I wrote previously. I got confused with the surnames - Jane's maiden name was Thomas.
Really sorry to mislead!
Legs
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Hi
Don't apologise - I checked back and it is me who got it wrong. I think it was late in the evening.
Being "chatting" to a friend on another Forum, she too is tracing her family. Family name .........JONES....nationality WELSH - I wish her the very best of British!!!!
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Bless her, fortunatly I've found no Jones' yet... I'm sure they'll be lurking with the WIlliams' somewhere!
It was me that confused you - I edited the post to the correct name in case anyone else reads it and I confuse them too.
Legs
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Hi Legs
I have a feeling I have hit that proverbial brick wall. I wonder if the original paperwork for their wedding would reveal his birthplace. There is of course his work records but do they still exist?
Will delve further.
Great news yesterday. I checked out the Cambridgeshire (March) part of the Forum and low and behold there was someone looking for my mother's (Reed) side of the family. What bliss to find a bunch of answers and now I can give her a stack of info. Oh how I like this game!!!!!
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Wow, that's great news, does she have the WIlliams lot hiding there with her?!!!
Thank you for all your help with this lot. I have no idea whether any of his work records exist, I wouldn't know where to look for them...
Thanks again
Legs
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You are very welcome legs. I will continue with my Williams lot, but keep an eye open for yours. Just got to hope for some inspiration. I have ordered a few very old Grangetown books from Amazon who knows......
Will be in touch - we could still have that coffee you talked about if you are still in the mood give me a shout. We could meet up in Hastings - I love that town and I can buy some fish.
Janet
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Hallo Alllegs - how is the search going. I haven't forgotten you. I have put all the stuff away for the moment as it was consuming all my time and now the weather is better I have had to concentrate on my very large garden, which is reaching "Livingston - I presume" status.
Keep in touch.
xx
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Hi there,
I've had to put things away too as work is manic. Have nothing to report though!
Keep in touch
Legs
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Thanks, I too have got to stop spending hours on the Williams hunt. Currently found out that my William Henry Williams' grandmother was a Thomas too..............she was a Mary and her father was Joseph. She married in Guisborough to Evan Williams in 1859. Who knows, I might find a connection to your Jane Thomas.
Lovely find in the Census too...in one house was my grandfather, Great grandfather and Great Great Grandfather - both widowed, with my grandfather's youngest sibling his sister.
When I have some time I will tell you about my Grandfather's niece - and her life - it will make your hair curl. More soon. cheers.
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Hi all,
I'm new to these chats, but was intrigued to read your story, and have some more information on your Williams mystery which might add more confusion, sorry! I have recently begun helping a relative trace her grandmother's family. Initially, all we knew was that she was adopted and knew nothing of her original family. She was brought up as Minnie Hewitt but we found that her birth name was Minnie Williams as it was given as her maiden name on her daughter's marriage certificate. She was born 6th June 1900, so we applied for her birth certificate which we received last week. Her birth parents are Jane Williams, nee Thomas, and William Williams, deceased. The address given is 12 Kendall Street, Middlesbrough. We have been unable to find her or her mother Jane on the 1901 census, but she is on the 1911 census as the adopted daughter of Arthur and Rachel Mary Hewitt. On searching the internet, I discovered your chat, and it is clearly the same family. Obviously, William cannot have been Minnie's father as he had been dead 5 years by then, so presumably Jane put his name on the birth certificate to legitimise the birth. After reading your information about Jane having a sister called Elizabeth Ann Hewitt, I think she must be related to the family who adopted Minnie. Arthur's parents were also called Elizabeth Ann and William Hewitt, but they are not the same people as I have the 1911 census records for both of them. Arthur's wife, Rachel Mary, was formerly Morris and was born in Merthyr Tydfil, Wales. I see that you were also unable to find Jane and her children on the 1901 census. So, I'm sorry to burden you with more complications, but perhaps, when we find one, we will find them all.
Look forward to hearing what you make of this news,
Sue
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Hi Sue,
WOW, what an interesting twist to the story. I'm thrilled to hear from you dispite adding more mystery to the Williams clan.
I will pass this info on to my cousin inthe USA, he is a direct descendent of the Hewitt's so he may be able to add more info about Minnie's adopted parents.
I had no idea about Minnie. I wonder if Pattie (aka Martha Jane, she would have been Minnie's older sister) knew about her existance? She emigrated to the US and died in 1979, my cousin in the USA knew her and the family still have her papers. He'll be thrilled to hear this!
I'm bowled over and hope we find out the true story! I'm lead to believe there may have been some sort of scandal as when my gran was born and her mother died (Margaret Williams, another sister for Minnie) when gran was only 6mths old her and her brothers were brought up by their paternal grandparents and never saw their maternal relations.
WOW - no idea what else to say!!! I'm off to ring my gran and email my American cousin with this exciting development!
Can't wait to hear from you again!
Legs xxx
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Hi Legs,
Since my last message, I have done a little more digging on the Hewitt family, and it would appear that William, who married Elizabeth Ann Thomas, is the older brother of Arthur, adopted father of Minnie. I have been unable to find the family on the 1881 census (they all seem rather good at evading the enumerators don't they?) but have found them on the 1871 census, which confirms that Arthur had more siblings than I first thought. As Arthur had Minnie living with him in 1911, and his brother William had Martha living with him in 1911, which you mention in an earlier message, then they must surely have known each other as children. As far as I am aware, Minnie never mentioned any sisters, and both her daughters are now dead, so we cannot ask them if they remember anything. Minnie's adoptive sister, Ena May Hewitt, was my mother's step-mother (just to confuse things further), but my mother says she never heard any mention of Minnie having sisters, but she does remember going to visit relatives in Wales. Ena May is now dead too. I remember Minnie from when I was young.
Another little teaser I found is that on the 1881 census for Middlesbrough there is a William Williams living with the family of Morgan & Ann Williams all born Dowlais, Wales, the same place as the Thomas Clan, and the address is 84 Upper Oxford Street, Middlesbrough. The age isn't right for it to be "our" William Williams, but is it too much of a co-incidence that Minnie was living at 48 Oxford Street with Arthur in 1911?
Food for thought!
Look forward to hearing from you again,
Sue
X
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Excellent Sue,
My cousin in the US has a lot of Hewitt info, I sent you a personal message with both his and my email addresses as he doesn't use rootschat.
I'll forward your info to him as he knows more about the Hewitts than I do, his grandmother was Elizabeth Ann Thomas, (Jane Thomas' older sister), she married a Hewitt, I forget which, and her daughter Evelyn emigrated to the US to be near Pattie (aka Martha Jane) Williams (Minnie's half sister).
There are an awful lot of twists to this story aren't there. I can't input much more at the mo, hopefully American cousin can!
Just out of curiosity, where in the world are you?
Speak soon
Legs
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Hi Legs,
I am in Scarborough, North Yorkshire.
Got your personal message, and you will see I was confused over how your american cousin was related to the Williams/Hewitt family. I will email him soon, thanks.
Sue
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Excellent, I have just replied to your personal meassage!
American cousin will be thrilled!
I love north Yorkshire, well all of Yorkshire really. My grandparents, Margaret Williams daughter still lives in west Yorkshire, so we still get up there a few times a year. I'm in sunny Sussex, by the sea, although a northener at heart!
Speak soon
Legs
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Hi Allegs
Thrilled you have some sucess with your family research. Still haven't ruled out our connection but have not had much time to dig further. I have just found my cousin on my maternal side. My mother's brother died in the D-Day landings leaving an 8 month old son. Mum lost touch with them in the 50's. I have been trying to find him on Ancestry. Two months ago he decided to post on Ancestry and low and behold we hit the jackpot. We have since visited with each other and he has visited my 97 year old mother who was thrilled beyond reason. Great Result. I love this geneology game.
Janet
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WOW Janet,
How exciting. I love making new discoveries and meeting new cousins, certainly the most thrilling thing for me is finding out things for my gran who is 82, she believed she had no maternal family at all and Sue has just added another one for her. She is flabagasted. I'm hoping my American cousin may come to the UK for my grandparents 60th wedding anniversary in June.
I don't have the time to dig further at the mo either, roll on the summer holidays!!!
Hope you're well, keep in touch.
Legs xxx
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Thanks Allegs,
Yes it has been great for Mum after all these years. The first meeting was a little wierd as Mum was very muddled that day but it did get thru to her who he was. He will be coming again next week and Mum is better, but I will not warn her this time because she got all worked up and I think that caused the confusion.
The wierdest thing about long lost cousins, when he got out of his car I recognised him immediately. As I was about 5 the last time I saw him that is a bit unreal. His eyes were bright blue, the same as my Grandad, his father, and my mother. He too is thrilled by the whole business. His mother never told him about his real father until he saw his birth cert. when he was 15. The only photo he had of his paternal family was one of his father in uniform. Least said is best about his mother - she is dead now, but I would have had words with her if she had been alive.
When he first visited me I had copied all the family photos from Mum's album into one for him and he was thrilled. He was able to see his grandparents for the first time. There was even a photo of him at about 6 months being held by our Grandmother. Mission Accomplished.
Janet
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Awwwww how lovely. I took my gran to visit a paternal cousin, they hit it off immediatly and we had a ball. We all have the same sense of humour and it was as if we'd always known one and other. xxx
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Just to remind you that anything posted on this forum can be picked up on a google search so it is best not to give too much private information. You can always use our personal message system if you want to chat about living people.
Regards
Andrea
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I am the cousin in the USA that Legs talks about. I got into this chat room years ago and forgot about until Legs mentioned it again. I am retired, and just finished with my football team so had time to look into the Williams drama. I cannot find Jane Thomas Williams or Martha Jane, aka Pat, in the 1901 census but think I have them all in the 1911 census. If someone can get a birth certificate for Amy Williams would be helpful in determining her parents. In the 1940's Aunt Charlotte Thomas Steel's son was living in the same house on Stapylton St, my Mam, sister and I would visit. Cousin Winnie, daughter of Rachel Thomas Collins, is older than I and lives in Canada. I called and asked her if she remembers Minnie, and she did not think so. Did Minnie marry? In the future I'll try and keep up via Rootschat.
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I can definately confirm that Rachel Williams is the daughter of Jane nee Thomas and William Williams (deceased)
James Williams and Rachel Williams formally Thomas nee Edwards are not the parents of Amy, neither are William Williams and Jane nee Thomas.
Legs
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Your last statement:
First sentence: Good
Second: Wow, how and what did you discover?
dickw
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On the tees valley indexes website I searched and askled if they could confirm the parentage of Rachel and Amy. They emailed back to confirm Rachel and un-confirm Amy. Obviously they won't give me Amy's details without buying the cert, however, you could email to suggest further possibly parents, such as was her father James...? I'm pretty sure he is.
My sisters wedding tomorrow so will chat next week, take care xxxx
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On page 1 a reference to Thomas Lewis. My cousin Winnie in Canada, stated that he lived with her family. Winnie's grandmother was Rachel Thomas Collins. Rachel was a sister to my grandmother Elizabeth Ann Thomas Hewitt and Jane Thomas Williams. I am sure that he came to the Teesside from Wales with the Thomas family but do not know if he is related or not. I think I asked Winnie about him some years ago and forgot what she said. I will contact her and ask again.
I chatted with Allegs today via Facebook chat, I did find Pat Williams on a boat to Montreal in 1924. She and my Mother were living in Blackpool, Mother worked there in a fish and chip shop. Mother went back to South Bank when her father died in 1924.
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Hi
I’m not sure if you still use this site but I think we are related.
My great grandmother was Rachel Williams ( my grandmothers mother) I’m currently searching my family tree typed in my Great great grandfathers name and this post came up!
Please get in touch
Kind regards
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Hello Helen,
How lovely to hear from you. I pop back on here sporadically. It'd be lovely to speak further. My email is on my profile. I'll check yours and email if I can x