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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 22 March 09 11:12 GMT (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
Could someone tell me whether there is a good website where (for free) one could look up details of family coats of arms. There seem to be an awful number of firms who offer to make up (in many cases bogus) coats of arms for an exorbitant fee, and I imagine writing to the College of Heralds and asking them to research a family and a particular date for an award (?) of arms might be costly too.
Any suggestions...?
Very best wishes,
keith
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There is no such thing as a 'coat of arms for a surname'. Many people of the same surname will often be entitled to completely different coats of arms, and many of that surname will be entitled to no coat of arms. Coats of arms belong to individuals. For any person to have a right to a coat of arms they must either have had it granted to them or be descended in the legitimate male line from a person to whom arms were granted or confirmed in the past.
See 'Frequently Asked Questions' at http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Faq.htm
Stan
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Apparently if a person behind a stall in shopping arcade selling plaques tells you that you have bought a copy of "your family coat-of-arms" then they are breaking the law and you should report them to your local Trading Standards Office for fraud. :)
Stan
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http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/visitations/index.html
Hi Keith, Hows you.... Are you deep in the medi-eval's as well now....
The above site has a few examples of Families with Arms, that were 'registered' at the time the Kings herald went for a visit....
Berkshire is on line there and shows how lineage and marriages are incorporated to make 'a coat of arms' for individual families....
You would then need futher evidence... (wills, letters, etc) to help confirm that's your ancestor.
I'm working on the Norreys family from Ockwells. ::) It shows 8 different families bought together in the one 'arms'.
Just got back from Liverpool, with the Lancastrian part of the family!! Pinpointed the line that the Ockwells family descend from.... all very interesting....
Good luck. :D Lesanne.
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I have to say that the College of Heralds (although it was a few years back now) were very helpful to us when we approached them about our, as it turned out, bogus Arms and put us on the right path - it was research well worth paying for.
I'm perfectly certain a lot of those fancy C19th &19th church monuments with fancy arms, crests and whatnots on them are bogus - is it too late for Trading Standards to do anything about them? ;)
Carole
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Hi Keith,
You could try looking at one of the sites mentioned here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms
Hope it helps.
Paulene :)
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Well! What a good, helpful response on here...
It's just that my mum has been to a course on heraldry and is now pretty clued up about what the descriptive mumbo-jumbo actually means - re colours, symbols, designs, etc.
And in our family papers we have come across a coat of arms described in this way for the GURNER family in Cambridgshire in 1622. Just trying to check out its authenticity, and who the individual in the family might have been to whom it might have been awarded.
Will check out some of those links now...
Many thanks, keith
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The 1622 coat of arms for a member of the Gurner family is probably genuine although even then there were people using coats of arms which the Heralds refused to confirm. I would suggest that you try to find a copy of the Harleian (spelling?)Society publication of the Heralds Visitation to Cambridgeshire. There was one published for most counties around the turn last century. There is certainly a publication for the 1575 vistation to Cambridgeshire but there may also be a later one.
Most large reference libraries have copies for the counties which surround them.
If you can post the blazon for the crest (which sits on the helmet) and the wording of the motto I might be able to identfy the likely owner.
David
David
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David,
Here is the description:(bit of a handwritten scrawl, so might misrepresent what it actually says)
Armorial bearings of Gurner of Cambridgeshire 1622
Arms: argent a cross engrailed gules
in dexter canton a cinquefoil sable
Crest: on a chapeau gules, turned up ermine
a lion passant argent, supporting in its dexter paw a cinquefoil or.
There is a motto: Volonta e Lavoro, but I don't know how authentic or relevant it might be.
In the year 1622 the head of the family was a Robert Gurner, born in 1582, a yeoman farmer according to his will of 1655. He was also church warden in Ickleton for a while. Not sure whether a man of this status could have applied for and been granted a coat of arms, though...
keith
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Neither the crest nor the motto match anything in my reference books. It is possible that a yeoman farmer could have been entitled to a coat of arms. It would seem worthwhile looking at the 1575 visitation for an ancestor with a similar coat of arms.
David
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Can I point out an area where errors might arise without anyone being aware of it? If you go into a mediaeval church (for instance) with the heraldic devices of the local gentry carved into the woodwork or stonework. bear in mind that they may have been repainted over the centuries and not necessarily in the same colour. In my local church, there is one monument where the shield is differenced into 21 separate coats of arms. A friend of mine with extensive help from various national bodies has so far failed to discover the identity of at least 2 of these, most probably for the reason hitherto mentioned.
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Hello Keith,
As David point's out... :P :P
Robert's birth is after the visitation 1575 but was about for the next one.
Do you know his father.... ::) Robert would be able to carry his 'Arms'.
I've been trying to find a reference book on 'Armorial Bearings'. It listed families and their arms. I found it in Manchester, it could be in Chetham publications. :-[
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I'm so pleased that you raised this subject Keith.
I also have a little challenge with a Coat of Arms at the moment. I have a copy from a Memorial in a church dated 1658 and I know the guy was "armed" (or whatever the term should be). My headache is now trying to ascertain what/who each of the nine quarters relate to.
Interesting point you've raised Nick - I hadn't thought about it being repainted - ummmmm that could raise a few problems :-\
Don't know where to start really but I shall have a look at the web sites mentioned above.
Thanks folks
Di
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Can I point out an area where errors might arise without anyone being aware of it? If you go into a mediaeval church (for instance) with the heraldic devices of the local gentry carved into the woodwork or stonework. bear in mind that they may have been repainted over the centuries and not necessarily in the same colour. In my local church, there is one monument where the shield is differenced into 21 separate coats of arms. A friend of mine with extensive help from various national bodies has so far failed to discover the identity of at least 2 of these, most probably for the reason hitherto mentioned.
If you have the formal description (blazon) of a shield this strictly defines the layout and colours. There are various rules which also apply to how the various colours relate to each other that can be checked within a quarter of a shield. For example touching sections will never be coloured or metals, these will always alternate.
These will enable you to determine whether a repainting has been done correctly. However you should also be aware that when a close family member is granted a coat of arms the differences are often created by just changing the colours. Thus what you think is change made on repainting may in fact mean that the shield belongs to another family member.
David
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Good morning!
And thanks again for all these thought-provoking comments. Robert GURNER's grandfather was also called Robert GURNER (or GOURNER) and he didn't die till 1579...
My mother said that she remembers her father having a ring with exactly these details (minutely engraved) that I listed above; it was not a ring that could be used as a seal. He thought it was 17thC in origin, and had been handed down through generations of his family.
But unfortunately it was lost or stolen when he lived in India in the 1940's.
The description of the coat of arms is similar to one I have seen somewhere for a branch of the GURNEY family, but I have so far been unable to find any link or descent from that (mainly Norfolk) family.
In the 1633 visitation for London, which I looked at on the link Lesanne kindly provided earlier in this thread, there are the arms for Richard GURNEY, Sheriff of London, who was later knighted by Charles 1st in about 1641 or 1642, and who was soon after that incarcerated in the Tower of London by the Parliamentarians.
His shield and crest is totally different, but his father was a Brian GURNEY (alias GURNARD) from Kendal.
An interesting aspect of this is that the GURNER name in Ickleton was GURNARD before it evolved through GOURNER to GURNER. But again, haven't been able to make a common link.
Perhaps we will write to the College of Heralds for clarification, after all...
Regards, keith
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http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm
Found this Keith about the Royal Family... How the 'arms' change by generation..
;D If you have a few hours to spare... :P
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You can't treat the Royal Coat of Arms as strictly following the rules. They broke the rules when it was convenient.
David
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;D ;D Tis true David... :o
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Lesanne and David,
Certainly won't be trying to make a claim to the throne! However, I have found a photocopied sheet (from which book, I'm afraid I've made no note) of a coat of arms that is exactly as described on the 1622 GURNER one, namely an engrailed cross gules (red cross with wavy edges!), and a cinquefoil (5-leaved) emblem in the top left corner as you look at it.
Seems to belong to the GURNAY family from Norfolk, with a Francis GURNAY becoming a merchant in London.
There are dates for 1634 and 1635 on the short tree provided, although the name above the shield is spelled as GURNEY. At the top of the page it says The Visitation of London p. 337. (Perhaps this exists on one of the pages on your earlier link, Lesanne)
Maybe there is some link between GURNEY's and GURNER's.
We've now written off to the College of Heralds, by the way, so should soon know our fate - or more likely our forebears!
keith
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A few unrelated thoughts.
The French would pronounces Gurner as Gurney. Many of these families are of Norman origin.
The cinquefoil would seem to be a difference applied to an earlier arms. When it is applied in this way to both shield and crest it often indicates an unproven or weak link to the original family. In this situation the cinquefoil could have been taken from the arms of the wife's family at the generation where that link occurs.
You describe the edge of the cross on the Gurney shield as being wavy. This is of course significantly different engrailed which is a series of semicircles alongside each other. Is this another difference showing another line of the family.
The wavy edge could be associated a second grandson and the engrailed edge with a third grandson if the arms had a Scottish origin.
The cross on the shield possibly implies a crusader ancestor.
David
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:D As a beginner in this era, makes this all so interesting. Please let us know their reply Keith.
Best wishes, Lesanne.
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David,
You're obviously a bit of an expert, or simply very interested in the subject! What you say raises all kind of exciting possibilities. Maybe there is an obscure link from the grander GURNEY family through to my more humble GURNER's. I had wondered about the significance of that extra gold cinquefoil. I've studied several early wills for variations of the GURNEY name in East Anglia without turning any clues up so far.
But certainly there may be a clue somewhere through this (until now unconsidered) journey into heraldry.
I do have a large family tree of the GURNEY family drawn up by their family historian Hudson GURNEY in the 19thC, and I can see the branch alluded to in the 1633, 1634 visitation for GURNAY that I mentioned earlier. Perhaps I should focus more precisely on that now.
And Lesanne, be sure that I'll let you know what the College of Heralds pronounce on the matter...
Regards, keith
N.B. The cross is definitely engrailed - "wavy" was just my inaccurate way of describing it. When I looked again, it is in fact rows of semi-circles on the edges...
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I expect you've seen this report.. :-\ How come you always get a picture.... ;D ;D ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_John_Gurney
Lesanne ;)
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Hi
Just to confirm the connection with the arms quoted and the Norfolk Gurney family I checked in a dictionary of Hereldry I have and it gives
Johan de Gurney (time of Henry III) bore, argent, a cross engrelee gules - source 'The Norfolk Roll'
:)
DebbieG
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You know, it's funny I should see this thread today... was only talking to someone last night about coats of arms... We've got a mounted coat of arms in our house- I'll have to ask where on earth it came from because from what has been said here, it might not even be ours!
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Lesanne,
The GURNEY family is well documented, and contains many famous people - a daughter of Earl Warren, who was married to Gundreda, daughter of William the Conqueror married into the line; so did an Anne , daughter of Sir Henry Haydon, cousin of Anne Boleyn. Elisabeth FRY was of course born a GURNEY.
(I'll be lucky to get any pictures of these! - were you referring to my recent discovery of a Victorian Australian branch to my NOTT family, and the photos I've been posting from that new source on another thread...?)
And Debbie, I see the Sir John de GOURNAY that you refer to on the tree with a date of 1245 against his name.
Ayashi Foxtail, get that coat of arms in your house looked into immediately! This is all quite fun, though I doubt I'll ever find a link between the GURNEY family and my own GURNER family quietly farming the land for 300 years or so in South Cambridgeshire...
keith
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It came from the House of Heraldry Limited in Hertfordshire. Must be 1980 onwards because it has my maternal and paternal surnames side by side... Will have to ask mum when she turns up.
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You seem to be finding an interesting line for this family.
Gurner family in Cambridgeshire in 1622.
Gurney family in Norfolk using the same coat of arms
Johan de Gurney at the time of Henry III using the coat of arms before they were differenced. I wonder where or what Gurney was.
I am very doubtful about a coat of arms from Heraldry Limited. I would expect it to be just something which has been looked up in a book of surnames.
David
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That's what mum said! ;D
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David,
The GURNEY surname evolved through De GOURNAY and De GOURNEY to just GOURNAY or GOURNEY once the "De" from the Norman French got dropped some time in the 15thC, I believe.
The family originated from a place in Normandy called Gournay. It was possibly Old Hugh De GOURNAY (1036-1074) came across with The Conqueror, though I don't know whether he fought at Hastings.
The family seem to be traced back to a Eudes in the 9th or 10thC, "a follower of Rollo"...
keith
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:D Hello Keith et all...
Yes, once you get into the medi-eval's with your family (possibly) it's so facinating, that you go off on a tangent and don't get back till bedtime.... ;D ;D
Anne Boleyne and Henry Norris is a story I'm in at the moment... I reckon he was 'framed'.... :o
I was thinking more of the Reverand's picture that was for sale.... 8)
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Lesanne,
Yes, that WAS a good one! That thread just ran and ran, and for all I know the Rev. John KERSHAW is still hanging forlornly in the Art Dealer's in South-East London.
Mind you, I think there's hopefully some pretty interesting mileage in this one yet...
keith
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David,
I've just referred back to your post 19 on this thread - must have somehow overlooked your comment that the red cross might well refer to an ancestor who was involved in the Crusades.
Should mention the fact, then, that in the pedigree is a Gerard the Crusader, who married Editha, daughter of Earl Warren who was married to a daughter of William the Conqueror called Gundreda (I think I mentioned this in post 25)
If Gerard's wife was a grand-daughter of William 1st, I wonder which Crusade he would have taken part in. I'm afraid my knowledge on The Crusades is extremely sketchy...
keith
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:D I'll leave you to scroll down to and open.. Girard Guinard :o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_principal_Crusaders
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There were dozens of Crusades. The numbered ones were
1st 1095-1099
2nd 1146-1148
3rd 1187-1196
4th 1198-1204
5th 1215-1220
6th 1227-1229
These were interspersed with crusades mounted by individuals which went on until 1400 if not later. Plenty of scope I am afraid.
David
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Lesanne and David,
I've just discovered that there's quite a lot of info on the web about those really early generations of the DE GOURNAY/GOURNEY families, and it appears that Gerard The Crusader went out in the very First Crusade (1095-1099), and perished there in 1098. But presumably he had begotten his heirs by then.
Have already heard from the College of Heralds, and they charge a £65 fee - sharp intake of breath (and purse strings), but I'll go ahead with a search, though I will ask them to look into that 1575 Visitation for Cambridgeshire too, David,
Regards, keith
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£65... price must have gone down then. We enquired while at the WDYTYA show last year and was told £90 just to check as we couldn't prove the last link back then.
We have now found a will that verifies the link to one extinct coat of arms granted in 1740 (belonged to BIL of 5xggranfather) and now trying to find if there is a link to another extinct coat of arms (our family name) which is sooo similar just reverse of cheveron colour and ermine that I feel there must be some sort of connection and would prove where they came from in England before going to Ireland around 1660. And incidently this coat of arms was re-granted in the same year (1740 to another man of the same family name though I can't connect to him either.
The College of Arms, told me that its most unlikely that it was a family link which made these men choose their arms... but the clues left are too hot to ignore.
Lesanne, 3xggrandfather (same line) married a Norriss who appears to descend from the Norreys family too. I haven't pursued this line yet.
Jenny
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Jenny,
Does this mean that you and Lesanne are related...?
All very interesting, and maybe the credit crunch is even affecting the price of genealogy.
I like the sound of "hot clues", too. Wish I had a few more of these in my search for a possible family coat or arms...
keith
N.B. I've just come across another reference to Gerard The Crusader, and it says there that he was still alive in 1104, and died on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem some time thereafter...
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Hi Keith,
If Lesanne and I are related I think its very very distant ;D
Its definitely fun when you get this far back and every clue is tantalising, sometimes it takes me months to work out where to look for the next clue.
I am pleased that I have at least one line seems be something other than a long line of shoemakers and ag labs.
I shall have to post up both the sets of arms which I think are related so that you can see what I mean about the similarity.
Jenny
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Jenny,
Interested to spot your CREED coat of arms. The CREED family and my GURNER family lived as neighbours in Ickleton, Cambs for many years, and there is a family bible somewhere that lists certain members of both families, as they intermarried. I'm talking about the 17th and 18thC...
keith
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Where there is a simple colour change or colour swap in a CoA they were usually granted to a close relative who was not in-line to inherit the original CoA
David
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Thanks David thats what I was thinking too!
Keith, it would be interesting to see the early Creed names in the Gurner bible.
If, my theory is correct though, I think my Creeds came from possibly Wiltshire before going to Ireland. I've been investigating loads of lines from different parts of the country trying to connect but so far, the Wiltshire line appears to be the most likely. In the 17century they appear to be military men, hence the 3 leopards faces in the CoA.
I'm now in the process of rooting through early deeds to see if I can come up with any new clues.
I shall keep an eye on this thread to see how you get on Keith with the CoA! Most interesting...
Jenny
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Jenny,
Your CREED's and the Ickleton CREED's are probably two different branches of the family - just as there is a strong GURNER presence in Gloucestershire (which is another area the GURNEY family migrated to as well, interestingly enough - perhaps there's a similar tale about coats of arms there).
However, I do know that in Ickleton Church there is a series of over 200 kneelers or hassocks that were embroidered by local women in the 1970's. There's one commemorating the GURNER family being in the village for many generations, with the red cross. And there's also one for a gentleman in the CREED (sometimes CRUDDE) family who raised a handful of mounted armed horsemen for the Parliamentary cause in the 1640's.
Would need to re-visit Ickleton to note down the exact details, but he was certainly a military man at a momentous time in our country's history...
keith
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Hi again, Everyone,
Did a little searching on the web yesterday evening, and discovered that Heralds' Visitations occurred between 1530 and 1689. There appear to be only two for Cambridgshire, the one in 1575, and another in 1619.
The Harleian Society published a book in 1897 that contained details of both the above, and you can buy a copy for about $150 US. There also seems to be a recent CD produced of its pages, for a fraction of the cost, and I'm tempted to send away for it despite the fact that we're obviously waiting to hear from the College of Heralds...
keith
p.s. Lesanne, I'm now going to add an update to the Rev John KERSHAW oil painting thread (should appear on the first page of The Common Room again). Not to say that I've won the Lottery and bought it to hang in my house at last, but to tell you that the biography of his father James has now appeared in print. (The 1825 sketch of son John that appeared on our thread illustrates the article...)
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Before you spend a lot of money on the Harleian publications do look in the reference library. You may have to ask as they are not always on the public shelves.
I know the Reading library contains a couple of dozen and I would expect that you should find the Cambridgeshire ones in a Cambridge library. You will probably only be interested in a couple of pages and they will only cost a few pence to photocopy.
David
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Hello Keith,
Just found huge amount of info in olde wills in Oxford. Have you gone down that roote yet... 8)
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Thanks for that advice, David.
Unfortunately at the moment in Cambridge the main Lion Yard Library has been closed for a couple of years while they re-organise part of the City Centre, and some of their Cambridgeshire Collection has been distributed to various branch libraries, and some kept stored in obscure places.
We're all hoping that things will be up and running again this Spring, though the re-opening date has several times been postponed.
And Lesanne, I think I've just about exhausted all the avenues with old wills for Cambridgeshire too. I'm hoping that the heraldry MIGHT miraculously provide a vital further clue or link...
Regards, keith
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I have a copy of the Harleian Society's Visitations of Cambridgeshire 1575 & 1619. No Gurney or Gurner is listed.
To see if a certain surname appears in the Visitations you can do a search online at;
http://www.achievements.co.uk/services/arm/index.php
This pulls up Gurney in London, Norfolk & Suffolk.
Regarding the fees charged at the College of Arms; apart from the fees for recording a pedigree and those for a grant of Arms, each officer sets his own charges. I have always found them very helpful and they have clarified a few points for my own online One Name armorial (www.heraldry-online.org.uk).
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still keeping an eye on this thread for hints and tips
thanks for the links Stephen, I shall go see what I can find :D
re the charges of the College of Arms, I kinda guessed that might have been the case. I might drop them an email later for another quote.
Jenny
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re the charges of the College of Arms, I kinda guessed that might have been the case. I might drop them an email later for another quote.
Jenny
Jenny
If the query is quite simple, & you're not in a hurry, you can try the online query form;
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Enquiries.htm
It goes to the duty officer of the week. He will (later) then ask you to contact him. That is fine if you are in the UK, not so if you're further afield. There is normally no charge for a "quick" enquiry.
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Stephen
Sorry, only just come across your helpful posts on this thread - for some reason it's not flagging up on my e-mails that there's been a further response.
Very interested to read that GURNER or GURNEY do not appear in those visitations. Still waiting to hear from the College of Arms...
keith