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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: 1909 on Sunday 22 March 09 13:55 GMT (UK)
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Rock & Sons seems to have been a significant presence in Hastings for most of the 19th century. Does anybody know what happened to them, and in particular any link with Rock, Hawkins & Thorpe in Tunbridge Wells?
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Welcome to rootschat.
Sorry I can't give you info as an answer to your questions but maybe if you emailed the Hastings Library they may have a Local Studies section that will have the info you want.
Worth a try
Good luck,
charlotte
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Thanks Charlotte. That's a very sensible suggestion. Chris
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Hi 1909
Welcome to Rootschat and especially the Sussex Boards - one of the best on here.
By Rock & Son were you referring to Rock & Son Carraige works in White Rock - if so, yes they are very famous in Hastings History and they won a Gold Metal at the Great Exhibition of 1851 at Crystal Palace with a new design of a carraige called 'The Diorapha'
Prior to the Crystal Palace Exhibition, a smaller exhibition of items was held at Messrs Rock and Sons carriage showroom at White Rock on 26/7 February. Children of Hastings Union Workhouse were taken to Crystal Palace by train on July 31.
They also had one of the first conveyor built production lines in history with raw materials entering the premises on the ground floor and gradually being added to as they rose up the three floors of the building in a lift (preserved and still working) until it got to the top where it exited as a complete carriage
Sadly the old building was converted to flats last year - but the outside is still the same
Chris in 1066
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1909, You've hot gold with Chris in 1066's answer and all that info.
You8 should be able to get a pic of the outside of the buildings.. and maybe more at whichever planning authority gave permission for the new flats.
charlotte
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1909
This is the building that was Rock & Son (The Archway that says White & Norton was the front entrance to the building/works) from an early 1900's picture.
White & North used to say Rock & Son
Also attached is a present day picture of the exit from the lift at the back of the building where the completed carriages came out.
In the cliffs at the back of the building (you can only get to them through the building) are some caves that were used by Rock and Co who as well as being a carriage maker was also an Inventor and he was experimenting in building Refridgerators.
Candle stubs are still in place in niches in the wall that he used to provide light whilst he worked. These pictures were taken as I had access to the building whilst they converted it to flats. Long thin tunnels lead to a wide open space with clear fresh water.
Hope that has helped
Chris in 11066
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Hi again
Picture 1 is from an old album of Hastings and St Leonards and dates from about 1870 - the smoking chimney belongs to Rock & Son ( their furnace for bending metals) on the corner of Roberston Street (Stratford Place)
Picture 2 shows that same chimney taken from the road above during modernisation into flats. The Grey roof is the actual factory building and the lift was on the right of the picture. (factory was an L shape) The white/cream buildings are actually on the sea front and were showrooms and offices etc.
Picture 3 shows how sympathetic the conversion to flats was - allowing for the age and shape of the building.
Hope that helps to put everything into context
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Chris in 1066Land,
Those pics are marvellous... and the first of Straford Place gives a real feel for it in early 1900s .
charlotte
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Hi Chris in 1066 land,
Thanks for those great pictures.
The reason that I was asking about Rocks was that I was doing a little article about carriage makers in Tunbridge Wells. I've done it now, but I never did find out why Rock moved to Tunbridge Wells, and which member of the family it was. I have attached it to this post in case people are interested.
I am still interested in the subject - once you start on something you can never give it up completely, but I wonder how I indicate to readers of this forum that the urgency has lessened. Perhaps just by saying that.
Thanks again for the pictures.
Chris (1909)
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Hullo again Chris 1909,
If you know about carriage makers, maybe you can tell me what a charbanc[spelling?] looks like please.
Someone told me deacdes ago that my forebears used to go off in one for picnics in 1890s in Yks dales... there were 9 kids so it must have been a capacious vehicle.
charlotte
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Hi Charlotte,
A charabanc was a sort of open-topped bus. I have attached a picture of one outside a hotel in TW in I guess about 1911. In the 1890's they would have been horse-drawn but I think that the concept was the same - rows of seats on an open cart.
Chris 1909
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Chris1909, Thanks.
Would it have been a public vehicle or would the family have hired it for the picnic? They were not short of money .
The one particular outing about which I know was from Ilkley to Bolton Abbey, so was it door to door or wait on the bus stop?
charlotte
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Hi Charlotte,
My feeling is that they were hired for excursions, though probably by a group larger than a family. A pub in Tunbridge Wells for example, hired one (possibly two) in Sept 1909 for a day's excursion through the hop fields to Maidstone. I also get the feeling that local church groups and societies did do things on a shared basis more than we do now, and picnics were popular.
Chris 1909
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Thanks Chris 1909,
it would probably have been my father's family and perhaps another family of freinds or two with appropriate baskets of food etc..
How I wish I'd asked when told about it... I just stood there at Bolton Abbey like a dumb bunny and my old uncle didn't want to bore me so didn't elaborate.. the stupidity and the wasted opportunities. :( ::)
charlotte
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Hi again Chris 1909
Thanks for that article on Rock & Sons - pretty interesting.
I would like to obtain a copy of that picture of their showroom as seen in the article - can you please advise your source.
Just one interesting comment - The Diorapha was invented just prior to the 1851 exhibition, but the date on that picture is c1830 with parts of the dioprah hanging from the rafters some 20 years before it was invented - how can that be?
Chris in 1066
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Hi Chris in 1066,
The picture came from a booklet issued by Rock, Thorpe & Co in 1922 to celebrate their centenary. The caption to the picture actually says 1830, but then I always explain to people that we know more about history than people did in the past, so it could just be an error.
Picture attached.
Chris 1909
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Chris 1909
Thanks for that picture - now added it to my databse.
I think the caption should have read 1850 instaed of 1830 - but hey, never mind, its a great photo.
Took these two pictures when I was given an escorted tour of the building by the site foreman - Incidentally it is a listed building, so all these features had to remain and they just been covered up.
I think the showroom is still recognizable from your picture though
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Hi again
Whilst doing the renovation / conversion to flats, the builders found the following which we think belongs to the 1930's time period.
Obviously in those days it was a 'Tea Room' with live music and the menu (not shown here) had the following price list
'Suggestion for Tea'
Toasted Teacake 4d
Toasted Scone 3d
Toasted Crumpet 4d
Sardines on Toast 1/-
Spaghetti on Toast 1/-
Welsh Rarebit 1/3d
Something with Chips 2/6d
Salad 1/6d
Wow - how the other half lived in those days
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Hi CHris in 1066 land,
Great pictures. I'm very pleased that the building is being looked after, even if it means hiding the features behind panels. Can I ask you something about dates: I had the idea that the Rock building was new in 1872. Was it a re-development on the same site or did they move from elsewhere in the town?
Chris 1909
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Hi: There is a website for the National Trust carriage museum at Arlington Court that has some good pictures and information on different carriage types and no doubt there are other similar sites that should answer your question.
Im doing some reasearch on Rock & Sons after they arrived in Tunbridge Wells in 1892 and became Rock,Hawkins & Thorpe although still given by that name in the directories at White Rock,Hastings ; Grosvenor Rd Tunbridge Wells and 24 Baker St. London W. .Still operated by that name in 1903 but in the 1913 directory are Rock,Thorpe,Chatfield on Grosvenor Rd.In the 1922 directory the name is changed to Rock,Thorpe & Co. and later still Rock,Thorpe,Watson.
Does anyone have any information about the partners Chatfield and Watson and any photos they can share with me of the companies buiildings in Tunbridge Wells?
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hi 1909
Unfortunately I am on holiday at the moment in Somerset - so cannot answer your question properly - but I believe it was the site of a brewery before Rock & co took it over.
Will check when we get home
Chris i 1066
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To Chris: I read with interest the article to wrote and wondered if you could post the following photos from the article; photo of Rock's 1891 carriage; photo of Elliott's building and photo of Smiths building. Also do you have more information on G & J Smith you can share as I would like to write a detailed profile on the companies operations.
Thanks.....Ed
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Hi Ed,
I think you were in contact with the Tunbridge Wells Ref library today. If you haven't discovered it yet, they have a book by Smith - Concise History of English Carriages, which contains a chapter on his carriage works.
They also have the centenary booklet about Rock's, which you have probably already come across.
And they will be able to get you access to a Bygone Kent article by keith Hetherington which covers other firms in the town.
Have you , by the way, come across Ascough's?
Sorry must go, will send the pictures later (or another day).
Chris Jones
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To 1909: The answer to your question about why Rock & Sons moved to Tunbridge Wells in 1892 is found in the Kent & Sussex newspaper article of August 27,1915.The article is about the great fire at their premises on Grosvenor Rd but Mr Thorpe,one of the partners in the company said in an interview with a newspaper reporter that the reason they moved from Hastings to Tunbridge Wells was,and I quote " to be in a more centralized location". This would have opened up more opportunities to sell their products;provided improved customer service and reduced the cost of shipping their products to customers who by 1892 were numerous and spread all over Britain.
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To; Chris Jones
Yes I have information on Ascough's.Anything in particular you want info on?
I have birth,death,marriage and other family details for John Ascough.His son Frank is listed in the 1901 census at 221 Upper Grosvenor Rd as a coach builder employer-he was born 1866 T. Wells and died 1924 Brentford,Middlesex and is given in a 1921 London directory as a motor body builder.John Ascough is also in the 1901 census as a coach builder employer but at #6 Park Rd.John was born 1840 Maidstone,Kent and died April 1901 and buried in the Tunbridge Wells cemetary June 15,1901.I have several Kelly directory listings for John with premises at #3 Goods Station Road,T. Wells.In the 1881 census John is shown as a coach maker employing 3 men and 2 boys.His address changes between census records.Need anything else-just ask. I look forward to getting the photos.
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Hi Ed,
Am attempting to send the pics. Some time since I did this so it may not work first time. Re the Ascoughs I have some (rather poor quality) pics of architects drawings from the CH Strange collection.
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contd. incl example of Ascoughs. You may already have them.
Its the Sandall Perkins building if you know the town.
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Hello Chris: Thanks for the great photos-very helpful.I will have to see if I can get a copy of the Smith book and Etherington's article from the Tunbridge Wells library or wherever I can find them.The Thunder Bay,Canada reference library is useless when it comes to anything on British history so I have to rely mainly on sources in Britian for my research and if books have to be brought in from other libraries they charge a huge fee.
Regards...Ed Gilbert
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Hi Ed,
Couple of thoughts:
- are you aware of the work of David Renno, who I think is interested in the Hastings end of the story
- the picture of the carriage came from a lady in Illinois (who owns it). Would you be interested in an email address for her? (perhaps I could send it to you directly as I wouldn't want to publish it without her permission.)
Chris
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Hello Chris: Yes I have been corresponding and exchanging information with David. It has been mutually benefitial.Dave says he is writing a book on Rock & Sons with an emphasis on its Hastings operations and I am working on an article with emphasis on the business operations in Tunbridge Wells. In fact all of my research and articles are about Tunbridge Wells people and businesses and some of my Gilbert family history articles about their lives in Tunbridge Wells have been published in the Tunbridge Wells Family History Society journal with more expected to be published in subsequent editions. Im currently concentrating on topics of postcards(photographers and publishes);photographers and carriage makers of Tunbridge Wells.
I have got some inquires out about the George Smith book(113 pages published 1896) and to Bygone Kent about the article and I am waiting for a response. Do you have a copy of the article in case I cant get it anywhere?
No I dont need the email address regarding the carriage photo but thanks for offering..........Regards...Ed Gilbert
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Hi Ed,
Yes I have a scanned copy of the article, but the docs are too big for this web-site. I could find a way of reducing them, but am a bit tied up just at the moment. Remind me in a week or so if you still need them and I'll have a go then. Chris
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Hi Chris: The Thunder Bay library has found and ordered for me a copy of the George Smitt carriage book. The Bygone Kent people are looking for the article.If they cant find it I will let you know and perhaps you can send me a scan of it or post it. Ill let you know.
Regards...Ed Gilbert
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Hello Chris: I have the book about carriages on order from the library but I need help locating Keith's article in Bygone Kent.I contacted the magazine but they couldnt come up with it.I want to get a copy from the T.Wells library but to do so I need to know when the article was published and the title would be helpful also.The library has back issues to 1980 so there are a lot of issues to search through and I wanted to help them speed up their search for it.Can ypu help?
Regards...Ed Gilbert
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Hi Ed, Unfortunately I can't tell from the scanned pages what edition it was - only that it was pages 506 to 513. I will try to get the filesize reduced today or tomorrow so I can post them here. Chris
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Keith's article 1
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KH article 2
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KH article 3
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lastone
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I am the grandson of Frank Ascough and found the information very interesting
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Greetings. I thought you might be interested in a print I have, dated April 1850, which has the Rock works At Hastings in the foreground. I have it because of my connection with Hastings, rather than Coachbuilding. However, coincidentally my great grandfather and his father and brothers were coach builders in Aberdeen and London, under the names of Burlington Carriage co. and Victoria Carriage Works. I find the file size is too big, so I don’t know whether you’ll get it.
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This may be clearer, I hope.