RootsChat.Com

Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Rochdalian on Saturday 28 March 09 02:01 GMT (UK)

Title: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: Rochdalian on Saturday 28 March 09 02:01 GMT (UK)
Hi

Trying to find when and how these two families arrived in OZ. 

Both families ended up in WA.  The Munn's were William Henry & Charlotte with maybe two kids.  They appear in the 1911 census and were in WA in 1916.  The Lead's were Frederick Marmont & Dorothy Mary who married in 1910 but I can't find in the 1911 census.

Anybody got any ideas please.

Thanks

Bob

Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: krisesjoint on Saturday 28 March 09 02:42 GMT (UK)
Hi Bob,

Without ages and childrens details it is difficult  ;)

Could this be a possibility?

Departed Liverpool 23 Dec 1911 for Sydney aboard the WAIMANA

Listed to Fremantle on ticket 1766 we have

MANN Mr Wm H 32 Farm Lab
MANN Mrs Charlotte 27 Wife
MANN Miss Edith 4 Child
MANN Miss Florence 2 Child
SMITH Mr Edwin 14 Student

Cheers Kris  :)
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 28 March 09 02:51 GMT (UK)
Hi,
We are not given any birth dates, but this is probably the interment of William Henry MUNN  of East Fremantle.  He was 67 in 1948.  Does that sound right?

The lease grant, as you see, is to Charlotte Munn.


http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/search.php

enter Munn in Search

The LEAD's are there too
Sue
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 28 March 09 03:08 GMT (UK)
A check of the WA PO Directories shows clear entries for

 FREDERICK M. LEAD from 1914 at

113 Broome St. Hightgate Hill

There is nothing in 1912.

In 1913 this ..
Lead, Fred. W.  fitter. Whim Ck.


Sue
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: cando on Saturday 28 March 09 03:16 GMT (UK)
Australian Electoral Roll 1916 WA
MUNN Charlotte  Loton Street, Meekering  Married
MUNN William Henry  Loton Street Meekering  Farm hand

1925
MUNN Charlotte  Cowaramup   Married
MUNN William  Cowaramup  Settler

1936
MUNN Charlotte  Donnybrook  Home duties
MUNN William Henry  Donnybrook  Labourer

Possible Marriages for daus

MUNN Edith H 
SMITH John R
District Sussex  Reg#20  1927

MUNN Florence
JOYCE Robert H
District Sussex  Reg#21  1929

Death
MUNN  William H 
Fremantle  Reg#27  1948

Marriage   :-\
MUNN  Charlotte
McKINNON John
Fremantle  Reg#268  1951
and
Burial record
MCKINNON    Charlotte [Lottie]    
62 years  died 14 Nov 1951  at Coogee Beach.

Dates of birth for Charlotte have a difference of 5 years.  :-\   
 
Cheers
Cando
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 28 March 09 03:29 GMT (UK)
There are a couple of WW2 service histories .

One for Simpson, Yvonne, Jessie [AKA Yvonne Jessie LEAD]
DOB 1917 POB Perth

Another for  LEAD, Stanley Frederick. DOB 1908. POB Birmingham, NOK DOROTHY.
This man was living in QLD.

Sue
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: Rochdalian on Saturday 28 March 09 03:52 GMT (UK)
Thanks everybody, they are certainly the right families.  That's in spite of my omission of DOB etc.

And Kris, I checked Munn, Munns, Munt, Munts but never thought of MANN.  That just shows the value of this site there is always someone who can think further outside the square than me.  Any idea what LEAD could have been transcribed as that I haven't thought of? ::)

Just to clarify I have:  William Henry Munn b. c1880, wife Charlotte nee Smith b. 13 Jan 1884 Surrey.   Frederick Marmont Lead b. c1879 Birmingham.  Sorry 'bout that. :-[

Cheers

Bob

Thanks again

Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 28 March 09 03:54 GMT (UK)
Hi Cando,
Poor Charlotte died the year of her seocnd marriage.

That's a bit sad :( :( :(

Wonder if her true age was revealed at that time

Sue
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: cando on Saturday 28 March 09 04:03 GMT (UK)
Australian Electoral Roll 1925
JOYCE  Robert Hastings  Newton Road, Spearwood  Farmer

1936
JOYCE Florence  15 Fraser Street East Fremantle  Married
JOYCE Robert Hastings  15 Fraser Street East Fremantle  Bricklayer

They are buried at the Fremantle Cemetery.  Robert died aged 89 on 15 March 1987 and Florence aged 95 on 16 Mar 2004.
http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/GenResearch.html




Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: cando on Saturday 28 March 09 04:12 GMT (UK)
Two Frederick M's on the WA Electoral Roll with a Dorothy at both years and addresses

Australian Electoral Roll 1916
LEAD Dorothy  113 Broome Street, North Perth HD
LEAD Frederick Marmaduke Alfred  113 Broome Street, North Perth  Engineer

1936
LEAD Dorothy Alice Kate  60 Alexandra Road, East Fremantle  HD
LEAD Dorothy May  60 Alexandra Road, East Fremantle  HD
LEAD Frederick Marmont  60 Alexandra Road, East Fremantle  Carrier

Dorothy May aged 86 died 25 Feb 1980 and Frederick Marmont aged 68 died 18 Aug 1952.  Ashes scattered at Karrakatta.

Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: cando on Saturday 28 March 09 04:28 GMT (UK)
There are two passenger records in the name of LADE Liverpool to Adelaide SA in 1912. 

Cheers
Cando
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: krisesjoint on Saturday 28 March 09 04:33 GMT (UK)
Hi Bob,

You have got me with your LEAD's. Very few people I can find on passenger lists with names similar. Such a few years where they must be too with first reference located in WA being 1914

Sorry I can't find them

Kris  :)
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: Rochdalian on Saturday 28 March 09 04:42 GMT (UK)
Thanks for trying Kris.  I had 10 credits left on findmypast so I spent 5 and looked at the transcript for LADE that Cando mentioned and it was a Mr, Mrs and Master Lade.  Could be them I suppose with Master being Stanley b. 1908 (as mentioned by Sue).  The jury is still out on this one I think.

As you say there are not many Leads or similar.

Cheers

Bob
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: cando on Saturday 28 March 09 04:46 GMT (UK)
There are these LEAD births in WA -

LEAD Dorothy A K      [On 1936 Electoral Roll]
Perth   Reg#1298 1913

LEAD Frederick  M                 
Perth    Reg# 1069 1915

LEAD Yvonne J            
Perth    Reg#425    1917

LEAD Richard M                
Perth   Reg#2300 1918

LEAD     Alice                 
Perth   Reg#1530  1929

Marriages
LEAD Dorothy
MUNN Gordon R  
Fremantle  Reg#419   1940

LEAD Yvonne J
SIMPSON Clifford
Perth  Reg# 143   1943

Dorothy Alice MUNN aged 80 died on 19 Jun 1994 and Gordon Ryan MUNN aged 81 died on 1 Nov 1998.  There ashes were taken from Karrakatta.

Yvonne Jessie SIMPSON aged 83 died 29 Apr 2000 and Clifford Stuart SIMPSON aged 83 died 3 Aug 1999.  Their ashes were taken from Karrakatta.

Deaths

LEAD  Frederick M                        
District Fremantle      Reg#225     1952
    
LEAD Richard M                   
District Perth    Reg#1010    1918

Cando
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 28 March 09 10:23 GMT (UK)
There are these LEAD births in WA - cando

And this is the one, which is the serviceman mentioned above, in England


Births June 1/4 1908   
 
Lead,  Stanley Frederick @   King's N.  Vol 6c Pg443

Sue

ADDING: However, if the marriage of FREDERICK & DOROTHY [which I cannot see onfreebmd] took place in 1910, it looks as if he is a little 'early' to be their child 

WAS the marriage you refer to in England
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: Rochdalian on Saturday 28 March 09 21:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Sue

The lady I am doing this for told me that the marriage took place in London in June 1910, I will have to check with her.

I get a feeling that there is something funny with this family. ::)

Any idea where King's N is.

Thanks

Bob
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: krisesjoint on Saturday 28 March 09 22:12 GMT (UK)
Hi Bob,

Kings Norton is on the border of Worcestershire, Warwickshire, Staffordshire. I suspect Stanley is a red herring. I found this family yesterday to fit. Family arrive 1913 Sydney aboard the Zealandic (I think I saw something about on to Brisbane) Parents Henry and Mrs A LEAD. After a lot of fooling about I believe I found them in 1911 in Kings Norton District Worcestershire. Children change their names a bit Mum is Amy. Stanley is listed as Frederick.  ;)

Cheers Kris  :)
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: Rochdalian on Saturday 28 March 09 22:18 GMT (UK)
Thanks Kris, I'll pass all the info on and also see if I can get any clarification on a few dates.

I think overall she will be pleased, as you Chatters have come up trumps again.

Thanks

Bob
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: krisesjoint on Saturday 28 March 09 23:03 GMT (UK)
I can't figure it out Bob,

I do agree that something is not right here  :-\

The marriage is said to have taken place in June 1910 yet I don't see it. I have checked the images for 1910 and there is no Frederick LEAD listed. There is however a Frederick Montague LEAD married in Brentwood (Middlesex) Sep 1908 3a 113. Wife Amy Adelaide GREEN or Adelaide Lillian I LILL

Kris  :)
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: krisesjoint on Saturday 28 March 09 23:08 GMT (UK)
OK Cancel that - there is a Frederick Montague LEAD b Brentford 1874. There is also a Frederick Marmont LEAD b Kings Norton 1880, so we are back to Kings Norton............Kris  :)
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: krisesjoint on Saturday 28 March 09 23:27 GMT (UK)
OK given that Frederick LEAD aged 21 unm b Birmingham is at 73 Mulberry in Mt Pleasant Liverpool Lancashire in 1901. He is a ships carpenter. RG13/3418 Folio 11 Page 13

1891 he is with his grandmother in Kings Norton

RG12/2353 Folio 8 Page 10

LEAD Mary A 66 Widow b London Tailoress
LEAD Jane h Dau 29 Unm b Edgbaston Birmingham Upholsterer
LEAD Alice Dau 27 Unm b Edgbaston Upholsterer
SPILLER Oscar P Grandson 13 b Edgbaston Errant Boy
LEAD  Frederick M Grandson 11 b Edgbaston Scholar
LEAD Emma sister in law 60 Unm b Worcester
COPELAND Nellie J Lidger 2 b Balsall Heath

1881 RG11/2957 Folio 14 Page 23 he is with his grandmother and extended family - married daughter Elizabeth Spiller and her children plus unmarried daughters Jane Kate 21 and Alice 19 along with grandson Frederick 1, so it appears he may be illegitimate.

Kris  :)
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 29 March 09 00:38 GMT (UK)
Morning All,
There is a digitised ww2 record for GORDON RYAN MUNN.

He was still single when he joined in 1939 [per cando's marrige find] and so lists his father as Next of Kin.

There is an address for father William Henry which is different from his electoral location in 1936

6 Frederick Street Nth Fremantle.
Gordon lives in Bridgetown.

It would appear to confirm GORDON as a child of William.

ADDING,  here is his birth.  I should have looked for it first
MUNN, GORDON R. Male  @  PERTH reg 498 in 1918

Sue
 
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 29 March 09 00:49 GMT (UK)
Hi Kris,

Yes definitely  irrelevant LEAD  lead there ;D

Sorry, couldn't help myself
 :-X

You've sorted it clearly

Sue
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: krisesjoint on Sunday 29 March 09 02:12 BST (UK)

Yes definitely  irrelevant LEAD  lead there ;D

Sorry, couldn't help myself
 :-X

  ;D

Problem is still that although they are in WA we still don't know, who she was, where they married or how they got to WA. I keep hunting for the marriage, 1911, or passenger list and just can't find a thing. I think we need to know more about who Dorothy was........Kris  :-\
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 29 March 09 02:52 BST (UK)
Let's pop this in to add to the confusion  ;D

In NSW Marriage..
19336/1945  LEAD,  FREDERICK MARMONT to LEASK,  JAYE KATRINA@  SYDNEY 
19336/1945  LEAD,  FREDERICK MARMONT to  LEASK,  JOYCE KATRINA @ SYDNEY

Sue
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 29 March 09 02:57 BST (UK)
And this....


Deaths in NSW
26177/1948  LEAD,  BRIAN father  FREDERICK MARMONT mother JAYE KATRINA  ANNANDALE     

25127/1978  LEAD,  FREDERICK MARMONT father  FREDERICK MARMONT  mother DOROTHY M  ARY
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: Rochdalian on Monday 30 March 09 05:48 BST (UK)
Hi All

Just got back to the pewter and blimey!!

Thanks so much for all the info.  The lady who asked for this tells me that Fred's wife was Dorothy Mary Browne and they married in London 1910, some of that I have already mentioned I think.  Also that Fred's cousin Henry Lead & wife Amy and little girls Ida and Ena migrated to Queensland. 

Bob
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: cando on Monday 30 March 09 05:59 BST (UK)
And this....


Deaths in NSW
26177/1948  LEAD,  BRIAN father  FREDERICK MARMONT mother JAYE KATRINA  ANNANDALE     

25127/1978  LEAD,  FREDERICK MARMONT father  FREDERICK MARMONT  mother DOROTHY M  ARY


Perhaps this is Frederick M born 1915 

LEAD Frederick  M                 
Perth    Reg# 1069 1915

Cando
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: Rochdalian on Monday 30 March 09 06:16 BST (UK)
Thanks Cando, sure looks like Fred jnr.

Seeing as it appears to be impossible to find the LEAD families arrival I'm leaning towards the LADE family (see reply #12) with Master LADE being Stanley Frederick LEAD.  I don't think I'll commit to paper just yet though.

Bob
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: krisesjoint on Monday 30 March 09 09:07 BST (UK)
Hi Bob,

Stanley Frederick is not their son. He is the child of Fredericks cousins Henry and Amy from Kings Norton. Stanley arrived in Queensland in 1913 with his family. reply #16

Still no sign of the alleged marriage in England for Frederick and Dorothy even with the name Browne. It just is not listed. I don't see them in 1911 and I can't find an immigration for them  :'(

Kris  :)
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: RJWL on Tuesday 07 May 19 14:22 BST (UK)
Hi All,

I live in Perth, WA.

My father was born in 1934 to Robert & Catherine Lauchlan of Bridgetown, WA, Australia. I'm pretty sure my grandparents owned an orchard on Tweed St, Bridgetown. My grandfather's family arrived in Australia around 1909. My grandmother's maiden name was Catherine Munn.

My father told me he used to catch the train to Fremantle to visit his grandfather in the 1940s but didn't see him again in any other decade. My grandmother's brother's name was Gordon.

I can trace my grandfather's family back a few generations but until I read this thread I had no inkling as to a possible name for my great grandparents.

I have a suspicion that William Henry & Charlotte Munn are my great grandparents. My father is the first born and named William Robert but goes by the name Doug. Robert is a family name among the Lauchlan's but William has always seemed out of place. It would make sense if he was named for Catherine's father.

Does anyone have more information on the origin of William Henry and Charlotte? I'd very much appreciate it.

Thanks.

Rob
Title: Re: MUNN & LEAD Families
Post by: RJWL on Tuesday 07 May 19 16:34 BST (UK)
Doing some more research on this.

See attached Death Notice for W. H. Munn. It's a shame that my Grandfather Bob Lauchlan also died in 1948.

Entries are:
MUNN: On January 20, at Fremantle Hospital, William Henry, dearly loved husband of Charlotte Munn, loved father of Edith, Florry, Cath, Dick, Harry, Gordon, Kit, Vi, and Stella, father-in-law of Jack, Rob, Bob, Bert, Petra, Dorothy, Harold, Tiny and Ted, also devoted grandfather to his loved 22 grandchildren.

MUNN (W. H.): In affectionate memory of our darling father and Pa of Bob and Tom Joyce, passed away, at Fremantle, on January 20, 1948. Inserted by his loving daughter and son-in-law. Flo and rob Joyce.

MUNN (W. H.): In loving memory of our darling Dad, passed peacefully away January 20, 1948, devoted Pa of Doug, Helen, Eilleen, Margaret, David. Inserted by his loving daughter and son-in-law, Cath and Bob Lauchlan.

MUNN (W. H.): In loving memory of our darling Dad, passed peacefully away on January 20, 1948, devoted Pa of Lynette and Kenneth. Inserted by his loving daughter Kitty and son-in-law Harold Pratt.

MUNN (W. H.): A sincere tribute to our dear friend. Bill, who fell asleep January 20. Always remembered by Charlie May and Rowling family.