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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: zoolew on Wednesday 01 April 09 03:50 BST (UK)
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My g grandfather Lewis HARRIS was born in Russian Poland in 1839.
Next information: marriage in London 24 Oct 1860 to Mary ISAACS. On marriage certificate, Lewis HARRIS' father's name is Samuel FORDON, Rank or Profession - Dead
Lewis & Mary's second child (my grandfather) Morris LEWIS born in East London (Middlesex) 4 August 1862, when g grandfather's name was Lipman Harris LEWIS.
Census - 1871- g grandfather listed as Lewis LEWIS
Census - 1881 - g grandfather listed as Harris LEWIS
Census - 1891 - g grandfather lsited as Lipman Harris LEWIS
Lipman Harris LEWIS died in London in July 1915.
Help - How do I find out when he came to England, and through what port?
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Hello and welcome to Rootschat,
Was your ggf ever recorded in a census as a naturalized British subject (NBS)? If he was then his naturalization papers may provide the answer.
You should read the thread on naturalization and internment:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130042.0.html
All too often, however, it is nearly impossible to determine the exact date of entry. It was probably only a couple of years before he married in fact. I would speculate that he was evading the possibility of 25 years in the Russian army.
The reversal of forename and surname to create a new surname was very common amongst Jews. Lewis and Harris are anglicized versions of Yiddish names, possibly Lipman and Hyman. Your ggf simply took his anglicized forename as a new surname. Lipman itself is an alias or nickname for his sacred Hebrew name, which could have been Levi, Yehuda, Eliezer, Uri or Yom Tov to name but a few possibilities.
Are you certain about the surname FORDON, could it be FRIEDEN or somethingelse?
Justin
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Thankyou Justin - what a wonderful first reply!
The 1901 Census indicates that Lipman was born in Poland (British Subject). Previously those last 2 words had not appeared. As I've got the gook "Immigrants & Aliens" I'll research this further.
Re the surname Fordon, that is clear on the copy of the marriage certificate, but Lipman used a 'mark' instead of a signature on the Marriage certificate & my grandfather's birth certificate, so he couldn't write in English at that stage.
I'm encouraged by your questions & remarks, as they give me more ideas to follow up.
Thanks again
zoolew
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The NA holds the naturalization papers for a Harris Lewis from Russia, resident in London, dated 3 May 1899. This could well be your Lipman.
This link (I hope) will take you there.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=5074631&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2CLEWIS%2CHARRIS&accessmethod=0
I suspected that there was an 'over-anglicization' of his father's surname. The naturalization papers will reveal Lipman's place and date of birth, and probably his parents full names. Such papers are fascinating to read.
Justin
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Lipman Harris Lewis was buried in the Plashet Jewish Cemetery on 9 Jul 1915, sect. M, row 11, plot no. 10
That's in Westham I believe.
Justin
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Justin, thankyou so much for the National Archives reference you found for me. It is a great help to a new Rootschat member! The link you mentioned was very interesting.
Also thankyou for the address of the cemetery, & details of row etc. I had recently been given a photo of the headstone, so with your details as well, I'm making great progress.
Zoolew
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Hi,
I am also new to this forum. Look at my message Poles and Russians. I found my great great grandfathers naturalisation papers which I received today. they gave me his date of birth, place of birth, and mum and dads name, so I am one step further back thanks to all the help here.
Val
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Zoolew,
Is the inscription in Hebrew or English?
If in Hebrew, I can probably read it for you.
Justin
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Thanks Justin, but it is in English. I just wonder if there is any way we can search Russian records. I have found the place of birth Zaga is spelt Zhager and the province of Kovno is now Kaunas.
Great great grand parents are Lipmano and Chiau Sadaski I assume Limano is the man.
Any suggestions where I start?
Val
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HI Justin & Valigene - it looks as if things have got a bit mixed up, so I hope Justin sees this! The inscription on Lipman's headstone is in both English & Jewish, fortunately for me, as I wouldn't be able to read the Jewish version. It's not all that clear, but I expect to soon receive an email of the English version from my cousin who took the photo. Thanks anyway for your offer, Justin!
I should soon receive a copy of Lipman's Death Certificate. Yesterday I tried unsuccessfully to order a digital version of his naturalisation certificate, but both my & my husband's credit cards were rejected - maybe because we're in Australia. So I'll email TNA to find out what to do.
zoolew
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Hello,
The wires did get a bit crossed somewhere.
Zoolew - if your cousin doesn't email you soon. My offer still holds. It's a shame you won't be able to pop over to the cemetery. I'm surprised that your credit card was rejected. My card is registered in Ireland where I live and I have never experienced any problems. Are they mainstream cards, e.g. Visa or Mastercard?
Val - I hadn't noticed your thread, or thought you had already received numerous responses. I shall have a look and get back to you. Records for Kovno are held in the Lithuanian archives. I should be able to guide you in the right direction.
Justin
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Thanks Justin. I will continue on my Poles and Russians thread
Val
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Zoolew,
While looking through of Lithuanina Jewish surnames I came across GORDON, much to my surprise.
Intriguing!
Justin
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Justin
Wow - is there a link, I wonder? Any thoughts on how to pursue this line of inquiry?
zoolew
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I can do a couple of searches, but until you have obtained the naturalization papers and established Lipman's / Lewis' place of birth, it would be a bit of a poke in the dark.
The papers should also clarify his parents' names.
I re-read your message about ordering them. Are you really able to order an electronic copy or will they simply send you photocopies?
Justin
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I did some searched anyway.
There was a FORDON (sic!!!!) family living in Warsaw in the 1850s / 60s! Several births were recorded to Mendel and Yankel FORDON, who were most likely brothers.
The marriage of Peisach Izaak Fordon (s/o Jacob, s/o Josek) was recorded in 1856.
Warsaw records are amongst the most abundant. Look at this link:
http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/town/warszawa.htm
We need to pinpoint the ancestral town.
Justin
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The plot thickens.
Fordon was a town in the Prussian province of Posen (Poznan nowadays). I'm fairly certain it was under Prussian rule in 1839.
Did any of the census listings for Lipman mention Prussia rather than Russia?
Justin
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Hi Justin
I've sorted the Visa problem, so hope to soon get the Nauralisation Papers via email.
zoolew
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That's good news.
Further investigation has revealed that FORDONSKI was a common enough name in western areas of Congress Poland.
Justin
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Thanks for the latest info. What is meant by 'Congress Poland'? Do you know of an online site showing the boundaries of the countries of Poland/Russian Poland in the mid 19th Century?
In a previous message, you asked about where Lipman was born in the various Cenus returns -
1861 L H Lewis - Russian Poland
1871 Lewis Lewis - Poland
1881 Harris Lewis - Pol
1891 Lipman H Lewis - Russian Poland
1901 Lipman H Lewis - Poland (British Subject)
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Congress Poland was created after the Congress of Vienna in 1815 (after Napoleon's defeat). This link gives a thorough explanation with some maps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_Poland
Justin
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Where was Morris in 1881?
I found Harris and Miriam Lewis in the 1881 census at familysearch.org, but Morris wasn't with them.
Justin
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Here's a very good map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Congress_Poland_1831.jpg
If you find where the River Wisla crosses the Prussian / Polish border, you can see Fordon.
Follow the river upstream to the town of Wloclawek, and then SW along a tributary to Lubraniec.
In the 1820s, a Shmuel and Dobrys Fordonski had a couple of children. The records only go as far as 1825 on that film.
Justin
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Thankyou for 3 more replies, Justin. The info on Congress Poland was interesting, as were the maps,but unfortunately the link in your reply 22 didn't open.
Morris wanted to travel, & in about 1880 worked his way to New Zealand as a cabin boy.
According to one source, Lipman arrived in London about 1859 from Poland with his cousin Ansell. Their surname 'may have been something like Fordonski'.
The 1861 census lists Ansell's birthplace as Liprah, Plotse, Poland. On Ansell's marriage Cerificate his father's name is Lewis Fordon, Dead.
Does this help?
zoolew
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That does indeed help.
Anshel would be the more recognizable form.
Plotse = Plotsk, the Yiddish form of Plock.
Liprah = Lepnah, Yiddish for Lipno.
The town is also close to Wloclawek, but on the northern side of the river.
Copy the link at reply #22 and paste it into the address bar of your browser. That should take you there.
Now I'm excited. I shall go and do some more digging.
Justin
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Here's a snippet from the map.
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Now the bad news. I quote:
According to Miriam Weiner's "Jewish Roots in Poland," there are no surviving Jewish vital records from Lipno. This is confirmed by the latest information available from the Polish State Archives.
Stanley Diamond
Project Coordinator, Jewish Records Indexing - Poland
The Jewish community (and all its records) in Lipno was obliterated by the Nazis. Think yourself lucky that your ancestors decided to emigrate.
Justin
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Hi Justin - thankyou very much for those maps - that is great! I've found it in my atlas.
Now for my bad news - the naturalisation papers are for a different Harris Lewis - he was born in 1853 to Jacob & Nancy Lewis, & came to England in 1874.
However, I'm astonished at the information you are able to unearth - you obviously are very experienced in Family History.
zoolew
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You are most welcome.
I enjoy helping other people and like to think of Jewish genealogy as my chief specialisation. I happen to know where to look to find the info and I have access being a member of Jewishgen.
This may be the end of road for this family line. I'll see if anybody had made any headway.
That's a bit disappointing about those naturalization papers. On the other hand Harris and Lewis were very common names, so we shouldn't be too surprised.
I'll report back anything I find.
Justin
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Hi again Justin
Re Lipman Harris Lewis' naturalisation - as the words 'British subject' appeared in the 1901 census, does that mean that he definitely was naturalised, or could he just have said he was naturalised without having to show any evidence of it? His wife, Mary Isaacs was born in Whitechapel. Would this entitle him to claim British citizenship?
I looked on the NA website, but had no luck at all. I'm intrigued by the extensions (if that's what you call them) in the link you gave me that took me straight to the records for Harris Lewis.
zoolew
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I fear you are right and he could have said just about anything. On the other hand, he was of an age by the turn of the century that he would scarcely have mattered.
Nonetheless, it might be worht while dropping a line to the NA and asking what they think.
As for his wife, the marriage had the opposite effect! Believe it or not, she and any children lost their status as British subjects, and became Russian!
This was actually a surprise to me, but it's all there well explained on the NA site.
Justin
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Maybe someone could offer me advice too! I am researching for my auntie, who is 85 and has now lost most of her sight. She researched her whole family in the old-fashioned way before computers, but got stuck on the Russian Jewish immigrants, and before she could get any further she lost her sight. Anyway, there was a whole family of them surname HARRIS who we think arrived at Kingston upon Hull around 1877. They were all born in Russia: Bernard, Hannah, Ellen, Annie,Jacob, Lazarus, Lewis, Pollie, Samuel, and Sarah. Ellen married someone called Ellis, but we have never traced him. Birthplaces Senokosnyy. Auntie would be happy if she could at least find the port and year of entry. Thanks everyone.
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Can I suggest that you start a new topic?
Was this Harris family the one at 116 Alfred Street South, Nottingham, in 1881?
Most of the family were born in 'Sweksney', which I would suggest was called Shvekshny in Yiddish. See http://www.rootschat.com/links/09f6/.
Which source cites Senokosnyy?
Hannah's birthplace was a town transcribed as 'Selonger' in Courland, which is modern-day Latvia.
I cannot identify which town that might have been. Can SKS please check the original image?
Justin
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Have started new topic, thanks. Yes that's the family. She has done copious amounts of research, even going "sideways", and has found many interesting things about them in the UK, but it's the point of entry and the possible naturalisation that we can't get on with.
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Hiya, I was doing some research about my family and looked for my gggrandfather Ansell Lewis and my searching bought me to this page. This Ansell Lewis is my gg grandfather :)
Thankyou for 3 more replies, Justin. The info on Congress Poland was interesting, as were the maps,but unfortunately the link in your reply 22 didn't open.
Morris wanted to travel, & in about 1880 worked his way to New Zealand as a cabin boy.
According to one source, Lipman arrived in London about 1859 from Poland with his cousin Ansell. Their surname 'may have been something like Fordonski'.
The 1861 census lists Ansell's birthplace as Liprah, Plotse, Poland. On Ansell's marriage Cerificate his father's name is Lewis Fordon, Dead.
Does this help?
zoolew
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Hiya, I know this is yrs down the line but this is also my gg grandfather Ansell Lewis that you have been researching for zoolew. :)
That does indeed help.
Anshel would be the more recognizable form.
Plotse = Plotsk, the Yiddish form of Plock.
Liprah = Lepnah, Yiddish for Lipno.
The town is also close to Wloclawek, but on the northern side of the river.
Copy the link at reply #22 and paste it into the address bar of your browser. That should take you there.
Now I'm excited. I shall go and do some more digging.
Justin
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Hello ZooLew and GoldieLox, I know I am late to the game, but I also have an interest in a Lewis family from Lipno. My Lewis family began immigrating to America in the 1870s and completed its immigration by 1892. I suspect that the original surname was not Lewis and I have been told that Lewis is probably an anglicized name. Would you have knowledge as to the original surname?
By the way, the original Lewis in my family to come to America was Jacob (Yitzak Yacov ben Abram Zvi) who was born around 1856 in Lipno. His older two sons, Morris and Myer, were born in Lipno around 1873 and 1876.
Iwouldappreciate any help you can provide.