RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: lanarman on Friday 10 April 09 21:39 BST (UK)
-
I have found this IGI marriage from 1747 and was wondering if I can find out if the occupation of the groom is listed in the original document? Is there any way to find this out?
DRUMMOND, Alexander married 10 May 1747 in Abercorn, West Lothian to Christian STUART.
Thank you.
-
Hi
If you can't get to Glasgow or Edinburgh, where you can view the record for free, it is likely to be available on Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
It will cost you 6 units (=£1.20)
It might not show his occupation.
Regards
Gadget
-
I have found this IGI marriage from 1747 and was wondering if I can find out if the occupation of the groom is listed in the original document? Is there any way to find this out?
DRUMMOND, Alexander married 10 May 1747 in Abercorn, West Lothian to Christian STUART.
Thank you.
Hi, lanarman.
This is a transcript of the entry in the Abercorn OPR - not a marriage but the banns:
May 10th 1797
Which day, Alexander Drummond &
Christian Stuart both in this parish desired
that their banns might be proclaimed on
Sabbath next.
So no occupation for Alexander, unfortunately, so I thought perhaps a baptism for a child might be more informative and had a look. No baptisms on Abercorn in the next 10 years. Reverted to IGI and found that they had decamped after their marriage to Linlithgow parish and there were 6 children listed for them. These are the baptism entries:
Sabbath Feby. 14th 1748
Alexander Drummond & Christian Stewart A S.N. Alexr.
W. Sebastian Henderson & Robert Leslie b. this morning
Sabbath 10th November 1851
Alexander Drummond & Christian Stewart a D.N. Christian
W. John Morison, shoemaker & Robt. Calder B. 6th curt.
This Christian died less than a year old - there is an entry in the Kirk Session accounts which records that "the best little mortcloth" was hired on "10 june 1752" at a cost of "£1.10.0" to bury "Christian Drummon daughter of Alexr. Drummon"
Sab. 10th Jun 1753
Alexr. Drummond, merchant & Christ. Stewart a S.N. John
W. James Henderson & Mathew Paterson b. 1st curt.
Sab. 16th Febry. 1755
Alexr. Drummond, brewer & Christ. Stewart a D.N. Agnes
W. John Adam & Geo. Cleland B. this day
Sab. March 16th 1760
Alexr. Drummond & Christian Stewart A D.N. Elizabeth
W. Alexander Spall? & Patrick Gray B. 4th curt.
Sabbath 8 August 1762
Alexander Drummond and Christian Stewart A D.N. Christian
W. Robert Cook & James Henderson b. 28 July
So, 2 occupations for your interest - hope these help.
If you have any problem understanding the Session Clerk's shorthand give us a shout.
Regards,
mr-aitch
-
Hello mr-aitch:
Thanks for this information- I hadn't dreamed that these details would be available. Now- unless Alex. Drummond moved to Glasgow and became a gardener, I doubt that this Alex. (brewer and merchant) is the same person whom I am looking for. And he would have another daughter born c. 1764 named MARY to be my ancestor. BUT my Mary Drummond did have a brother named JOHN so there may be hope for this yet. More research required!
Thanks again,
Michael
-
Hello mr-aitch:
Thanks for this information- I hadn't dreamed that these details would be available. Now- unless Alex. Drummond moved to Glasgow and became a gardener, I doubt that this Alex. (brewer and merchant) is the same person whom I am looking for. And he would have another daughter born c. 1764 named MARY to be my ancestor. BUT my Mary Drummond did have a brother named JOHN so there may be hope for this yet. More research required!
Thanks again,
Michael
Sorry it didn't work out , Michael - more work required indeed.
Good hunting,
mr-aitch
-
Hi Michael
The only Mary Drummond bpt around 1764 with father Alexander that I can see on SP is:
12 August 1764, Comrie, Perthshire - Mary Drummond. Parents - Alexr Drummond and Margaret McEwen
There is also this entry:
20 Feb 1755, Comrie, Perthshire - John Drummond. Parents - Alexr Drummond and Margaret McEwen
Regards
Gadget
-
Hi Gadget:
Yes, I have seen these 2 births from Comrie. Here's the puzzle: I would like to find the "correct" Alex. Drummond and his wife's name to continue back in that line.
I have the following information:
UMPHERSTON, James, married 1785 to Mary DRUMMOND, lawful daughter to Alex. Drummond, gardener in Glasgow. Source- OPR Glasgow. The family settled in nearby Cambuslang, Lanarkshire. The 1807 List of Inhabitants of Cambuslang show this family and 3 households away is a John DRUMMOND married to Elizabeth BIRD. Perhaps a brother to Mary, but then, always dangerous to assume. The OPR's show a John Drummond, gardener, married to an Eliz. BIRD in Ochiltree, Ayrshire and I currently have some feedback from a lookup volunteer on the Ochiltree connection. Very few Drummonds in that area and no Alexander's. Doesnt look promising.
My next step hinges on the names of the first 4 children born to James Umpherston/Mary Drummond. They were, in order, Catherine, James, Christian and Alexander. There are no Margaret's (as in Margaret McEwen). James Umpherston was the son of JAMES U. and CATHERINE Matthie. Then, I "presume" that Mary Drummond's parents were ALEXANDER (verified) and CHRISTIAN. The only Alex. and Christian I can find come from Abercorn/Linlithgow in West Lothian. And they do have a son named John. BUT NO MARY.
So thats where I'm at now- running around in circles biting my tail!! ;) Not sure where to put my teeth into next.
Thanks for your comments/help.
Michael
-
In addition to this, I am confused as to just where LDS patron submissions to the IGI get their BMD's from? Are they non conformist church records or are there Church of Scotland OPR registers missing and/or available somewhere else? I have other members of my Scottish ancestors who were definitley born/married and had children in Scotland pre 1855 but they show up no where in the IGI or the OPR's. Moderator- perhaps this is a better question for a general board somewhere?
Confused lanarman.
-
Hi
Patron submissions can be obtained from anywhere - that's the problem :-\
There are a few threads about the IGI and submitted v extracted records.
I'll see if I can find some for you :)
Gadget
-
Hi again
Here's one of the threads that covers submitted entries:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,256122.0.html
All that I can suggest is that they should be verified against other records.
Gadget
-
Hi Gadget:
Thanks for the comments and the thread link. I tend to agree with all the comments I have read that the OPR's are the most authentic and reliable sources, ie. the "primary" sources. But here's an example of my "confusing" sources:
LDS patron submissions (2) for birth of my GG Grandfather in Cambuslang, Lanarkshire- Mar. 2, 1824. Birth not found in the OPR's. Obit. says he was 68 yrs., 10 months, 20 days old when he died 22 Jan. 1894 (in Canada). This gives a birthdate of Mar. 2, 1825. Both his parents were baptized Church of Scotland and found in the OPR's. Unless an LDS patron found his actual baptism/birthdate in a Non-Conformist church in Cambuslang, where else could they come up with this exact date in 1824 (not 1825 as in the obit.) ? He was the only child in the family (as far as I know) and I cannot find his parents marriage, either. There was a non conformist church in Cambuslang/Glasgow at that time but the whereabouts/existence of their records is unknown to me. And perhaps the parents were not married and the child was not baptized? I doubt that.
I'm straying off topic here, sorry.
-
Hi
My immediate reaction is that they did their sums wrong from the obituary that you've quoted. There were schisms in the C of Scotland but it's a bit iffy with that information. What do the Canadian censuses give for his religion - if Presbyterian, it could be any of them :-\
Gadget
-
Always the obvious- right under my nose ! :-[
A couple of the online Canadian census listings (1851/71/81) show the son born c. 1824 to c. 1827. Religion- METHODIST. :o
Same for his parents! So- I can safely assume that the parents were married in a non conforming church and the son baptized there as well. Next step- where do I find these parish registers c. 1820-1825 for Cambuslang or Glasgow?
Thanks again, Gadget
-
Hi
Alexander Drummond & Christian Stewart are my Great (5) grandparents. His occupation, I've noted, is brewer. They were married on 10 May 1747 at Abercorn. I've a note that they had six children:
1. Alexander Drummond born 14 February 1748
2. Janet Drummond born 24 August 1749
3. John Drummond born 1 June 1753
4. Agnes Drummond born 16 February 1755
5. (?? born 15 September 1757) and
6. Elizabeth Drummond born 4 March 1760.
I have still to verify all this information, but it's a start.
Cheers
DiGi
-
Hi again!
I can verify that Alexander Drummond was a brewer because his daughter, Agnes, was my great (4) grandmother and I've a copy of her birth from OPR 668 Linlithgow stating his occupation as "brewer".
Cheers
DiGi
-
Hi DiGi:
Its most likely that there is no Mary Drummond in your family so its brick wall time for me. On another note in this thread- I did find my GG Grandfather James' baptism in the OPR's in 1824 in Cambuslang, Lanarkshire. Church of Scotland. Not Methodist.
As for my GGGG Grandmother Mary Drummond, daughter of Alex. Drummond, gardener in Glasgow- I'm not sure where to search for her next.
Thanks again DiGi and everyone else who commented.
-
I have been researching the Drummond family in Cambuslang, Lanarkshire too c 1800-1820.
There are references to a register made c1807 by the parish minister of church attendees in Cambuslang. John Drummond and his wife Elizabeth Bird and 4 (unnamed) children are listed. There is a Mary Drummond nearby. The area both are living in is Sauchiebog. Sauchiebog was one of the poorest areas.
An observation is that there was a significant influx of people into Cambuslang in the first half of the 19th Century. Given there are no other Drummonds in any of the other districts of Cambuslang, I would be inclined to believe that the Drummonds were migrants to the Cambuslang area from other parts possibly Glasgow/Barony parish.
Around the same time my Bell family ancestors moved from Glasgow to Cambuslang. All this is to say I would look for leads in Glasgow, Barony etc., as opposed to Cambuslang.
Doug
-
In addition to this, I am confused as to just where LDS patron submissions to the IGI get their BMD's from? Are they non conformist church records or are there Church of Scotland OPR registers missing and/or available somewhere else?
IGI stands for International Genealogical Index and it doesn't contain any records at all, in spite of their terminology. It is an INDEX, no more, and every piece of information there is secondary information. It is a fantastically useful resource for locating records, but not to be relied on as autoritative.
You have to click on each listing and look at the detail. Many of the 'patron submissions' and the 'community contributed' listings are duplicates or near-duplicates of the 'community indexed' ones.
My rule of thumb is that if it's 'community indexed' in the IGI then it's usually correct and can be used, with the intention of checking the original document to verify it in due course.
If it's 'community contributed' it's possibly correct, but has to be checked carefully against its original document. Some patron submissions are from excellent and well-documented genealogies but some are pure fantasy. (For a moment's amusement, see https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/9S3D-KY4 and https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MR15-DNZ)
If it's 'patron submitted' it's not to be trusted unless and until I can track down the original document from which it was taken, and assess the reliability of that as a source.
There are records not included in the IGI, for example last time I looked the baptisms in the parish of Duffus in Moray between 1820 and 1854 are missing for some reason, and I have heard that in some parishes all the boys' baptisms are listed but not the girls', or vice versa.
In Scotland, the registers of some denominations other than the Church of Scotland are not included, or not completely included. Some churches will not give permission for their registers to be filed or indexed.
The only absolute certainty is that anything found in the IGI or any othe online index or genealogy must be treated as a finding aid only, and carefully checked for authenticity and accuracy.
-
Doug: I am in agreement with your comments 100%. My family did originate in Glasgow as did Alexander Drummond "Gardener in Glasgow". John Drummond, living a few households away from my family in Cambuslang in 1807, was married to Elizabeth Bird in Ochiltree, Ayrshire. Coincidentally, he was also a gardener by occupation. So I wonder if he married Elizabeth in HER parish but was from Glasgow originally AND the son of Alexander Drummond. To really complicate this, there was a Mary Drummond with a brother named John born in Comrie, Perthshire to an Alex. Drummond and Margaret McEwen. Right time frame but could they have travelled to Glasgow? Many more questions.
I believe the 1807 List of Inhabitants of Cambuslang was compiled by Rev. Dr. John Robertson and Rev. Dr. James Meek, Ministers in Cambuslang at the time. It was included in this book: A history of Cambuslang. A Clydesdale Parish. By James Alexander Wilson, OBE, MD. Glasgow, Jackson Wylie &Co, 1929. 208 pp.