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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: Spanish_Eyes on Sunday 12 April 09 21:34 BST (UK)
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Any help please finding the parents and grandparents of Edward McMurchy born 22 Oct 1851 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland.
Edward married Margaret Jane Clarke born 20 Apr 1857 in Argyll, Scotland and they were married bef 1883 in Scotland. Any information on the parents and grandparents etc of Margaret would also be appreciated.
Thanks, Spanish Eyes
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Hi
There is an IGI entry it seems for Edward's birth, with the date you have. Parents show JOHN MCMURCHY and CATHARINE MCALISTER. Not so lucky for Margaret, not seeing anything for the date you have so far (she should be the easy one given it's post the start of official registration!).
Monica
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Hi Monica
That would confirm who I was told but hoping to find birth dates, place of birth etc.
I was told that John and Catherine married 24 Nov 1846 in Killean and Kilchenzie, Argyll, Scotland if this helps.
Thanks, Spanish Eyes
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Edward's siblings' birth details look to be well documented on IGI. You can but hope that parents' details may be as well.
This looks to be Edward with family in 1861 - all the children are showing as born in Campbeltown. A John who shows as born in 1849 is not showing in 1861:
John McMurchy 40, labourer, b. Killean, Argyllshire
Catherine McMurchy 34, b. Killean, Argyllshire
Donald McMurchy 13
Edward McMurchy 8
Archibald McMurchy 6
William McMurchy 4
Jas McMurchy 2
Donald McMurchy 10 Months
Address: Lady Mary Row, Campbeltown
Monica
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You're in luck :) Have a look at this site www.myainfolk.ca/records?page=530&sort=date Just key in McMurchy in the Keywords field and you will find transcribed details of John and Catherine's death certificates.
Monica
Added:....also a number of family members.
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Thats great..... at least I have an idea about when they were born and where. Maybe if their parents show up I can get complete birth information.
It would seem that young John died before 1861 as there is also 2 Donalds listed as well here, one at 13 and the other at 10 months which is strange.
I have Donald 1847, John 1849, Edward 1851, Archibald 1854, Ronald 1860, Mary 1862, Margaret 1864 and Catherine 1866.
Spanish Eyes
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Thanks Monica
I will check this site out...... it may even have their parents listed which would be great..
Spanish Eyes
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It does - just click on the name entry and you will get additional notes. Great site whoever has put it together :)
Re the baby Donand 10 months, most likely it is a mis-transcription of Ronald.
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This is a submitted entry for Catherine McAlister's birth on IGI:
KATHARINE MAC ALISTER Birth on 22 JAN 1826 Killean, Argyll
Parents:JOHN MAC ALISTER and PEGGY MC KINLAY
It has a specific date so you may be able to confirm this on Scotlands People's OPRs
For John McMurchy, going by the names showing on his DC from the above site, this is an actual extract entry on IGI:
JOHN MCMURCHY Birth on 22 AUG 1820 Killean And Kilchenzie, Argyll
Parents: JOHN MCMURCHY and MARY MCGEACHY
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Thanks Monica
There is lots of info there for the people I was looking for. I have copy and pasted to Word so I will print it all off and check out who is who.
It is great to get the information for John and Catherine. I will work on their parents next....
Thanks again, Spanish Eyes
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Re Edward and Margaret Clarke ::) What happened to them after their marriage? I can only so far see Edward in the 1881 census and nothing as yet in later censuses.
Monica
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Edward and Margaret left Glasgow, Scotland on 26 Apr 1883 with their daughter Minnie "Maysie" for Canada to work for the railway.
I had her birth as 26 Apr 1883 and I had it from another sourse as 26 Apr 1880 so I assume the 1880 would be correct as they wouldn't be giving birth anfd traveling at the same time.
I have no idea what happened to his siblings, I assume they stayed in Scotland.
Spanish Eyes
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There is this possible entry for Margaret Jane Clark, not with the same birth dates you have:
MARGARET JANE CLARK Birth:28 SEP 1856 Killean And Kilchenzie, Argyll
Parents:JAMES CLARK and JANE MC INNES
1861 entry:
James Clark 38, Farmer Of 90 Acres
Jane Clark 31, b. Kilmichael, Argyll
Ann Mary Clark 7
Barbara McMillan Clark 6
Margt Jane Clark 4
John Clark 2
Joanne Clark 1
Address: West Killarow, Killean
Everyone showing as born in Killean except mother Jane. I've left off the farm servants from the entry.
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Mysie MCMURCHY is showing as born in 1880 in KILLEAN AND KILCHENZIE.
I'll try finding her in the census for 1881. She's not with father as he is working as a farm servant in Tarbert Rd Glen Craig Farm, Campbeltown. Maybe mother's family?
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Ignore that 1861 Clark family entry I posted - wrong one!
This looks like Margaret at her parents' home with baby in 1881. Baby shows as Marion but mother is Mysie (probably variants).
John Clark 65, retired farmer, b. Campbelton G, Argyll
Mysie Mc Millan Clark 54, Killean G, Argyll
Margaret McMurchy 25, daughter, b. Killean, Argyll
Janet McMillan 59, lodger, pauper, b Killean, Argyll
Marion McMurchy 4 Months, granddaughter b. Killean, Argyll
Address: North Barrmains, Killean and Kilchenzie
Monica
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As far as Margaret Clarke, perhaps the different dates are for birth and baptisim, just guessing though....
Mysie's father worked for Margaret's father on the farm..... this is how he met her. He took Margaret and went to Glasgow where they lived and he worked on the shipping docks. While he worked there he read about the railway hiring in Canada and he applied.
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Margaret's birth entry:
MARGARET CLARK Birth on 20 APR 1856 Killean And Kilchenzie, Argyll
Parents: JOHN CLARK and MARION MC MILLAN
Just one year out!
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Great Work!!!! I really appreciate it......
I will get this all put together over the next couple of days...a lot to go through thanks to you..
I have to run as we have to leave for a Easter dinner out at the relatives. I will check back later and see if anything is new....
Happy Easter!!
Spanish Eyes
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Enjoy dinner :)
Just a couple of more bits for later. The correct family entry for 1861 - as transcribed:
John Clark 47, inn keeper, b. Campbeltown, Argyllshire
Myrtie (myzie?) Clark 35, b. Kellean, Argyllshire
Jean Clark 10, b. Kellean, Argyllshire
Mary Clark 7, b. Kilkenzie, Argyllshire
Margaret Clark 5, , b. Kilkenzie, Argyllshire
Elizabeth Clark 2, Kilkenzie, Argyllshire
Catherine Clark 2 Months, b. Kellean, Argyllshire
Address: Tayinloane, Killean and Kilchenzie
John farming by 1871:
John Clark 57, Father F Farmer Of 70 Acres ?? b. Campbeltown, Argyllshire
Mysie Clark 44
Jane Clark 20
Janet Clark 19
Margaret Clark 15
Elizabeth Clark 12
Catherine Clark 10
Martha Clark 8
Archibald Mc Stevson 20, farm servant, b. Killean
Robert McMillan 10, servant, b. Killean, Argyleshire
Janet McMillan 50, boarder, Annuitant, b. Killean
Address: Tayinloane Farm, Killean and Kilchenzie
Monica
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Thanks......
Perhaps I will catch up to you later on here..
Spanish Eyes
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I'll just add one more and you can follow up when you can :)
You have been lucky with these lines! I have found the ancestors of Mysie McMillan here, together with siblings:
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/MCMILLAN/2003-03/1048255131
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It seems overnight sometime I moved to another board.......
I have been very lucky with these lines especially with your great help. I have added all the information to my tree program that has been found so far.
Now to fill in some missing pieces if possible...
Spanish Eyes
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Hi Monica
I wonder if John McMurchy born 1791, died 1867 and Mary McGeachy born 1796, died 1889 would show up somewhere with their wedding date/place and all their children.
The same with John McMurchy and Janet Carmichael, birth dates/place, death dates/place and marriage. I am not sure how far back the records would go.....
You are probably busy helping others so if you get some time I would appreciate it.
Cheers, George
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Hi George
We can find some of that info out from IGI. For example, there is an actual extract for the marriage of John McMurchy and Mary McGeachy on IGI, date shows as 20 APR 1819 in Killean And Kilchenzie. In terms of children, the following show on IGI - John, Edward's father, looks to have been first born:
1. JOHN MCMURCHY Birth: 22 AUG 1820 Killean And Kilchenzie
2. ANN MCMURCHY Birth: 24 MAR 1822 Killean And Kilchenzie
3. DONALD MCMURCHY Birth: 16 MAY 1823 Killean And Kilchenzie
4. JANET MCMURCHY Birth: 03 FEB 1826 Killean And Kilchenzie
5. MARY MCMURCHY Birth: 29 JUN 1827 Killean And Kilchenzie
6. BETTY MCMURCHY Birth: 04 DEC 1828 Killean And Kilchenzie
7. MURDOCH MCMURCHY Birth: 19 MAY 1831 Killean And Kilchenzie
8. PEGGY MCMURCHY Birth: 13 AUG 1832 Killean And Kilchenzie
9. NIEL MCMURCHY Birth: 20 APR 1834/ Christening: 01 MAY 1834 Killean And Kilchenzie
10. MCMURCHY Female Birth: 27 APR 1836/ Christening: 02 MAY 1836 Killean And Kilchenzie - unnamed child, maybe early death?
11. MYSIE MCMURCHY Christening: 14 AUG 1842 Killean And Kilchenzie
A couple more late children show in the family's 1841 entry - all entries as transcribed:
John McMurchy 45, agr. lab.
Mary McMurchy 40
John McMurchy 20
Janet McMurchy 15
Mary McMurchy 13
Betty McMurchy 11
Margt McMurchy 8
Neill McMurchy 7
Agnes McMurchy 3
Wile M McMurchy 1
Address: Say Walensidh, Killean And Kilchenzie
And in 1851 - everyone showing as born in Killean:
John McMurchy 59, Farmer Of 40 Acres Employing Labourers
Mary McMurchy 54
Edward McMurchy 25
Mary McMurchy 19
Nell McMurchy 15
Ann (Agnes, name variant) McMurchy 12
William McMurchy 10
Misey McMurchy 8
Address:North Muasdale, , Killean And Kilchenzie
Monica
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We like farmers, they leave wills normally ;D
Likely will & testament entry (not sure what type it is as it doesn't say) for John McMurchy Snr. on Scotlands People. There are two entries each with a different spelling of what I imagine was the farm's name (also showing on the site 'My Ain Folk'.
One shows as: 09/05/1872, Farmer Residing at Kilmaluig in Dunoon Sheriff Court (SC51/32/18),
and the other: 03/01/1872, Farmer Residing at Kilmalnig in Dunoon Sheriff Court (SC51/32/18).
Monica
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I'm googling away as I'm sure you can tell by now ::)
You might want to see if any of these emails are still alive and kicking! Must be connected to your lines I would think:
I noted with interest your page on the web showing McMurchy gravestones - and a nice photo of my relative Ian McDonald! I have connections to the family you mention: an ancestor of my husband was William McMurchy (1800 - 1874) son of John McMurchy and Jane Carmichael / McMichael. I think that there are also some connections by marriage. I would be delighted to share information on this branch of the family, and would be delighted if you can help me with other branches. Can I also check if you have been in touch with xxxxx who has done some excellent work on the McGeachys of Kintyre, several of whom married into the McMurchy and related lines.
http://mysite.verizon.net/matt.carmichael/gb%202003.htm
And the link to the home page http://mysite.verizon.net/matt.carmichael/ Section for McMurchy's to be checked to see whether they connect to your line further back perhaps.
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In respect of John McMurchy and Janet Carmichael, there is this info coming up:
I too am searching Mcmurchy's in Killean and Kilchenzie parish. I
have a John McMurchy marrying Janet Carmichael 22 May 1788 at Killean &
Kilchenzie. Children so far include Ann, John, Janet and Donald. That's all
I have found so far. Could be a James. Your James who md Isabella Gilchrist
and two parishes are mentioned where the banns were posted most likely means
one party is from Killean the other from Kilcalmonell. The latter date is in
the parish they married but undoubtedly same couple.
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-ARGYLL/2004-10/1099198774
George, the marriage shows as actual extract on IGI as do the four children mentioned above (I've checked on SP and only four show - must be more though you would think). We also have the reference to potential son number 5, William, mentioned in the post above.
Monica
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The details of children showing on IGI to John and Janet (Carmichael):
1. ANN MCMURCHY Birth: 14 MAR 1789 Killean And Kilchenzie, Argyll, Scotland
2. JOHN MCMURCHY Christening: 31 JAN 1791 Killean And Kilchenzie, Argyll, Scotland
3. JANET MCMURCHY Christening: 04 SEP 1799 Killean And Kilchenzie, Argyll, Scotland
4. DONALD MCMURCHY Christening: 24 MAR 1804 Killean And Kilchenzie, Argyll, Scotland
Monica
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Thanks again Monica...... you are great.
You are going along so fast it is almost too hard to keep up with you. I will digest what is here and see what I end up with.....
George
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And when you start to understand who is who, this might make sense:
www.ralstongenealogy.com/killeangraves.htm
Monica
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Something to keep in mind now on these lines, if they were born and raised in Killean, we may be hitting buffers now on records (unless someone else knows different). IGI batch codes for Killean And Kilchenzie being in 1762 for births and 1783 for marriages.
Monica
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Thanks ...... hopefully I find John McMurchy and Janet Carmichael's birth and death info in here somewhere......maybe even their parents. :)
I will check this all out in my spare time tonight and see if it all makes sense so far. I will post later and let you know how I made out.
Thanks a bunch..... again ;D
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Hi Monica
Thanks again for the wealth of information you have given me.
I have emailed some of the contacts in the thread you supplied and I checked out that Carmichael website.
The website seems like another branch of the family, I don't see any of the McMurchy's I have listed on it but I will keep it handy to check back to once in awhile.
I am hoping that one of the contact people will get back to me on information for John McMurchy and Janet Carmichael.
Cheers, George
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Fingers crossed George ;)
Monica
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Hi Monica
Some of the contacts I emailed contacted me and I passed them onto my cousin and she is getting lots of help with her McMurchie/Carmichael line.
Sorry I took so long to reply........ many thanks to you and your help......
Spanish Eyes
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That's great :D You never know with these old posts whether people's emails are still live. Thanks for the update.
Monica :)
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I have just started this FH game and searching out my wife's antecedents came across your correspondence about Edward McMurchy.
His daughter Minnie/Myzie/Marian McMurchy from Killean married a Neil Macdonald/McDonald in 1866 and one of his sons was Edward Macdonald b. 1883, d. 1951 who won the DCM in 1917. Edward's sister Jeannie married a John Macdonald from Sorn in Ayrshire in Beachmore Farm, Muasdale on the 10th Sep 1908. They had three sons Neil, Ian and Edward, and Edward was my wife's father.
Your research has taken this maternal line back a very long way, but the John Macdonald who married into it is a very elusive figure. He appears to have been an orphan but did have relaitives named Bain and Ambrose.
I would welcome your comments on this.
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Hi HS
Welcome to RootsChat :)
George has not been on line since June, hopefully he will see your message soon. What information do you have on the elusive John MacDonald. Have you looked at his marriage cert from 1908 to see what it said regarding his parents? What else do you know about him?
Monica :)
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Hello Monica,
Yes, I have had success with the elusive John McDonald. That's the birth certificate spelling despite his grand-daughter calling herself Macdonald!
He was born in Sorn, Ayrshire 29 Sep 1883, son of JohnMcDonald quarryman (b. 1858) and Mary Bone cotton mill worker (b. 1861)
He was illegitimate, as was Mary Bone's mother Margaret Bone. Unfortunately, his name was not on Mary's birth certificate.
His grandfather was a Charles McDonald, married to Elizabeth McDerment.
How the elusive John McDonald (b.1883) met his wife Jeanie Macdonald (b. ca. 1884) from Muasdale, Kintyre and the daughter of Marion (Mysie) McMurchy is not known. They were married on 10 Sep 1908 at Beachmore Farm, Killean, Kintyre.
Fun, isn't it?
David
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Hi David
Sounds like you have made progress :) Don't worry about the MacD v. McD issue. You will find probably either or spelling on every document that you look at...as I know with my MacDonalds!
The other name spelling variant that you have is that of Bone and Bain/Bayne etc. Is this John in 1891:
Maggie Bain 44, Worsted Mill Worker, b. Dalry
John McDonald 7, nephew, b. Sorn
From what you said, is this John's grandmother? Likely that John's mother Mary may have married by this date perhaps.
Monica
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It certainly looks on the face of it that this Maggie Bain is old enough to be John Macdonald's grandmother or possibly great aunt.
Moreover, the name Bain is very interesting. My family source about the Macdonalds and John (b.1883) in particular told me that his only known relatives were named Bain and Ambrose. She mentions an Uncle Joseph (Bain) and an Aunty Margaret (Ambrose). These produced three girl cousins, who turned into elderly spinsters and all died in Glasgow. Their names were Margaret, Isobel and Elizabeth Bain, also known as Meg, Tibbie and Lizzie.
Could Bone and Bain be the same? Could there be two Margarets? Is Joseph Maggie's brother?
The search goes on.
all the best,
David
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David
Could this be the source of all the names you have as reference. Possible entry for John's mother Mary's birth?
MARY BAIN Birth: 07 SEP 1861 Sorn
Parents:JOSEPH BAIN and MARGARET AMBROSE
Monica
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Have you seen the birth entry for Mary to see whether parents show as married (I think you said you thought her birth was illegitimate). Apart from Mary's birth, there is another son showing to this couple born in Sorn in 1857 (James on 23 AUG 1857 Sorn). There is this entry in 1871:
Margaret Bain 53 b. Ireland
Margaret Bain 26 daughter, mill worker, b. Dalry, Ayrshire
Robert Bain 19, son coal miner b. Dalry
John Bain 15 son b. Sorn
James Bain 13 son, b. Sorn
Mary Bain daugh 9 b. Sorn
Address Sorn Village
The answer is there somewhere! I think this is this family in 1861 with the surname mis transcribed (Scotlands People will hopefully be clearer):
Joseph Barie 47, iron miner b. Ireland
Margaret Barie 45 b. ireland
George Barie 22 b. Ireland
Joseph Barie 20 b. ireland
Margaret Barie 14 b. Dalry
Helen Barie 11 b. Dalry
Robert Barie 8 b. Dalry
John Barie 6 b. Sorn
James Barie 3 b. Sorn
Address: Grocers Shop, Sorn
David, looking at these census entries, I'm not sure that Mary's birth was illegitimate ??? She does look to be the daughter of Margaret Snr (Ambrose). This would then fit well with John MacDonald showing as living with his Aunt Margaret Bain in that 1891 entry from earlier. These entries are all post 1855 so hopefully you should find Joseph Bain Snr's and Margaret Ambrose/Bain's death certs to help clarify and confirm.
Monica
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Monica, I think I must have jumped the gun when I found a birth certificate for a Mary Bone born in Hope Street, Ayr in 1861. This is probably not the same Mary Bone that fathered John Macdonald. Your figures make much more sense. John's Aunty Margaret seems to be the one born in 1847 (the Maggie Bain of 1891) and Uncle Joseph, the older brother, born six years before. They seem to have moved to Sorn ca. 1840.
My wife, John Macdonald's grand-daughter, and her first cousin in Macclesfield, the other grand-daughter, will be delighted at the progress. :)
I shall have another trawl in Scotlands People.
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Monica, I have just realised that I didn't see your posting regarding Mary Bain's birth in Sorn 7 Sep 1861 to Joseph Bain and Margaret Ambrose. This clears it up well. I expect and will check that they were both dead when he was born. There was a suggestion from the granddaughter that John Macdonald was an orphan when he was born - clearly his mother might have been and the birth certificate of Mary Bone in Ayr I looked at, is the wrong one!
Onwards and upwards,
cheers, David 8)
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Hi David
Mother Mary didn't show as deceased on son John's marriage entry in 1908. This looks a possible entry for her in 1891 with her brother John (who showed as a gardener in the 1871 census entry I posted earlier) - children showing as born in Lochwinnoch:
John Bone 34, gardener b. Sorn
Christina Bone 9
Maggie Bone 5
Mary Bone 2
Mary Bone 27, sister b. Sorn
Flora Liddell 42 housekeeper b. Tarbert, Argyleshire
Address: Auchengrange Gardners House, Lochwinnoch Renfrewshire
Maybe John's wife had died and sister helping out with children?
John's 1881 entry:
John Bone 26, gardener b. Sorn
Mary Bone 26 wife b. Drymen, Stirlingshire
Address: Auchengrange, Lochwinnoch Renfrewshire
His marriage cert would let you confirm it is the right family by confirming his parents.
Monica
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David
I think this might be the family that your referred to earlier (Margaret, Isobel and Elizabeth Bain, also known as Meg, Tibbie and Lizzie). Likely daughters to Mary's brother James b. 1857. From 1901 census - children all born Glasgow:
James Bain 44, Mercantile Clerk, b. Sorn
Mary Bain 40, wife b. Blantyre, Lanarkshire
Mary Bain 24, Bakers Shop Keeper
Maggie Bain 22, Grocer's Clerkess
Isabella Bain 19, Waitress Teakoones (as transcribed)
Lizzie Bain 17 Drapers Assistant
James Bain Jr 17
Address: 121 Greenhead St, Glasgow Bridgeton
Monica
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Monica,
Yes, it's the right lot, and confirmed by my Scottish relative. who now remembers them and where they lived - "a lovely villa at Tollcross - now replaced by a motorway".
Re: Mary Bone aka Bain. I now have a birth certificate showing that was indeed the daughter of Joseph Bain (coachman) and Margaret Ambrose, and as such the partner of John Macdonald b. 1858 and mother of John Macdonald b. 1883.
She later married a Robert McCosh on 14 Nov 1917 in Troon when she was a house-keeper and spinster. What is not clear is why she appears to have abandoned her son John to be brought up by his aunt Maggie Bain, when she could have taken him with her when she went to look after her brother John Bone’s children in Lochwinnoch.
As for the parents of John Macdonald snr. (b.1858) the quarryman, I have a birth register which names them as Charles Macdonald - ironstone miner and Elizabeth McDerment, but so far have drawn a blank on both of them.
Going back to the original string – Edward McMurchy - Neil Macdonald and Mysie (b.1842) McMurchy’s son Edward Macdonald was a highly-decorated sergeant in the Argyll and Sutherland Regt., being awarded the DCM and then later a bar to the same medal for his gallantry in September 1917.
best wishes,
David
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My husband is a Bain. His great-great grandparents were Joseph Bain and Margaret Ambrose. His great grandfather was Joseph A. Bain. I would love to share information with you. We live in the U. S. My husband’s grandfather came through Canada to North Dakota around 1895. Life must have been pretty grim as it seems that the family dispersed all over the world from South Africa to New Zealand to the U.S. Please let me know if you are interested.
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Hi Monica,
I have recently been doing a bit of research that has taken me back to John McMurchy and Janet Carmichael. A lot of what you have posted ties in with what I have been finding. I followed the lineage of Edward's brother Neil McMurchy (born 1858). At the moment I haven't managed to get back any further than John McMurchy & Janet Carmichael getting married 22nd of May 1788 in Killean & Kilchenzie. I was wondering if you'd managed to find any other info on them?
Many thanks
John
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Hi John
Welcome to RootsChat :)
These are not my family lines so I didn't research further after the searches on this thread.
A problem you are likely hitting by now is the lack of surviving parish records for the period in the 1700s that you are interested in.
I wonder if any other family researchers have made further headway?
Monica
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Hi Monica, thanks for the reply.
Ah, ok. Well thanks anyway- a lot of what was previously posted in this thread confirmed my findings. A couple of slight differences that made me go back checking again.
Yes it seems to be a bit more difficult to find anything back beyond that. If anyone has found anything I’d love to hear!