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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: alunno-a on Tuesday 14 April 09 13:48 BST (UK)
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Hello Everyone,
Sorry in advance!!! this might be a long explanation of a family "mystery", that I hope someone may be able to help with-- posted here as I have no idea which country to put it in, let alone county!
My greatgrandmother's favorite younger sister JULIA TUXWORTH, married a man called ERNEST EDWIN WARREN, in 1893 in Stepney. The family "story" is that Julia made rather a good marriage, as he became a Sea Captain (merchant navy), but that after they had had 3 daughters he "went walkabout" and disapered in Australia, leaving her and the children. But , there was more to this than simply a husband running off, that there was attached to his disappearance a huge scandal, that both his family and hers tried to hush-up.
Dying to know what this scandal was I have been trying to find out about Ernest-- the marriage cert gives his birth year as 1871, "Chief Officer on board ship", father James Warren, "Carriage Manufacturer".
I cannot find a James or Ernest Warren on any censuses etc. On the 1901, Julia was as married but living with her parents, 1911, again as married, visiting someone with one dau, the other 2 with relations.--Ernest is presumably at sea- but not found yet!
Here is my mystery that needs help--- trawling the web, I came across a reference to "a" Ernest Edwin Warren on the Newfoundland Grandbanks site--a letter from him written in 1916 in which he refers to a "Julia" and children, - but with a mysterious note attached to the posting that says the letter writer was a sea captain who, involved in undercover work after the 1st WW was "captured " by a gang in Australia, drugged, held in a mental asylum, was eventually rescued, and returned to London, where he died shortly after in 1925!! (his father having spent a lot of time and money to find him)The author of this post says this man was born in London, the son of a James Warren, but that James, his wife and other children were all born in NFLD,and that Ernest, although he died in London, was buried in Canada. -No one in my family has ever suggested "our" Ernest was of Canadian family---now I have found a reference to a retired sea captain called Ernest Edwin Warren in an Australian Newspaper of 1924, saying he was a prosecution witness against ,and victim of, a "gang" of fraudsters--who "Admitted" that he had "lost his memory". And , I have found a retired Captain,Mariner,of same name on incoming ships passenger lists in 1924.-travelling from Sydney. It is possible that these are not all the same man- and maybe none of them are "my" Ernest at all!----So, has anyone come across any of this, or a man called Ernest Edward Warren in their researches?? And can anyone find him on a census anywhere?? Any thoughts Very gratefully received--sorry it was so long winded!!
Sally
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HI Sally,
What a story!
There is a James Warren, carriage maker in the directories for Harbor Grace, NFLD in 1908.
This looks like the same James in the 1921 census for NFLD :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/links/062h/
Karen
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Ernest Warren (and other Warrens) buried United Church Cemetery, Harbour Grace:
http://nl.canadagenweb.org/cbhg_hgmilitaryroadunited.htm
Lots of other Harbour Grace information on Genweb pages:
http://nl.canadagenweb.org/cb_index.htm
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Thank-you to both--The James Warren,coachmaker, fits wonderfully with my marriage certificate. But the buriel in 1925, although it fits with the story told by the poster of the letter i cannot tie-in for sure, as this may be the origin of making "Ernest -the -letter-writer" buried in canada in the first place, if you see what I mean! I am not sure why a couple born in Newfoundland and married there would have one child born in London, and all the others in NFL, or why they would take his body back for buriel if he died in London -especially as the father James Warren ( if it is the same one) was dead in 1921- most odd! any thoughts??
Thank-you for taking an interest in this--I am sure my Ernest was not really invoved in "undercover work", or kidnapped by extortionists- wouldnt be surprised if his lost memory was a bit convenient!!actually I am not really certain he was a "captain" either----but I am determined to find out if he was the same man as appears in the newspaper, and or NFL references.
Thank-you again!
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In the letter he states that he is looking for "Percy", I think that it refers to his brother according to the will of Elsie Goodwin, she was born in Nova Scotia where James was learning his trade. There is a birth in 1873 in Annapolis Nova Scotia for Norman Piercy Warren, parents James & Annie.
https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ItemView.aspx?ImageFile=1801-158&Event=birth&ID=3220
About, the burial, maybe he's buried in England, but they have made reference to him on the stone in NFLD and someone has assumed his body is in the grave?
Karen
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This might be Ernest:
Arrived in New York, 8 June 1919, SS Australind, sailed from London 5/24/19
Manifest of Aliens Employed on the Vessel as Crew
No card, Warren, Ernest E., supercargo, Shipped or Engaged – 5/20/19, London, age 50, Whether to be paid off or discharged at port of arrival – No, race English, nationality British, height 5’ 9”, weight 200 lbs.
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IGI has records (submitted):
Ernest Edward Warren born 1871 Grace Harbour died 6 May 1925 and sister Elsie Katherine Warren born 1877 Harbour Grace married c1897 Whitman Smith Goodwin.
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Just for a bit of information, Newfoundland did not become a part of Canada till 1949.
Karen
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A Google search for SS Australind brings up several hits including this painting of the ship:
http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/pictoria/b/4/5/doc/b45743.shtml
The Australind was apparently used as a troop ship during WWI.
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Wow--thank-you for all this information!! I am getting quite exited here.
Karen, thank-you for the note on NFL--was it considered a British Colony then, or a "part" or province of Britain or Canada? Sorry for the ignorance- I have another relative- completely unconnected --born in NFL, and she always put "British Citizen" on the census, but born either NFL or Canada.
The Ernest of the letter gives a list of ships upon which he has served- I have only managed to "find" one of them, but it seems he was running between England-China-Japan-, at least pre-war. I suppose he could have sailed for New York after the war- but there is another Ernest Warren, born c 1875 in Kent who does appear on Ships, sailor's services etc--that may be him.
Thank-you all again, sooo much to look into now!!
Sally
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oh and I also remember seeing an Ernest Edwin James Warren b 1868 or 1869, who crops up in some trees connected to USA families.. its very confusing---
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Karen, thank-you for the note on NFL--was it considered a British Colony then, or a "part" or province of Britain or Canada? Sorry for the ignorance- I have another relative- completely unconnected --born in NFL, and she always put "British Citizen" on the census, but born either NFL or Canada.
It was considered a British Dominion and they were British Subjects prior to 1949
Newfoundland joined Confederation on 31 March 1949, having previously been a separate British dominion. Amendments were made to the Citizenship Act to confer Canadian citizenship on British subjects from Newfoundland from 1 April 1949 on broadly similar terms to those applying in the rest of Canada since 1947.
K
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Thank-you!! Sorry for for previous ignorance- unforgivable!
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That's ok, not everyone knows that. My gr aunt served in WW11, she would tell the story of how she was stationed "overseas" but only went to Newfoundland, oh she would laugh and laugh cause she technically never went over the sea to get there LOL
Karen
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This might be Ernest:
Arrived in New York, 8 June 1919, SS Australind, sailed from London 5/24/19
Manifest of Aliens Employed on the Vessel as Crew
No card, Warren, Ernest E., supercargo, Shipped or Engaged – 5/20/19, London, age 50, Whether to be paid off or discharged at port of arrival – No, race English, nationality British, height 5’ 9”, weight 200 lbs.
If this is the right chap then he also travelled in to the UK on board the Jervis Bay from Australia via the Suez Canal on 27 Sept 1924
His listing says that he boarded in Sydney and gives an address of the Commonwealth Bank of Aust. London aged 51 and a Master Mariner.
Under country of last permanent residence it says Australia and planned future residence England.
Carol
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I liked the Ernest on the Australind because he was the supercargo - the officer in charge of the cargo. Lot's of possibilities for smuggling or other scandal.
>>>
http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/pdf/battye/pods/1900/0310.pdf
A description of the Australind in 1900.
“… steamer, with passenger accomadation, trade between Singapore and Freemantle, calling at all Ports on the North-West coast of Western Australia …”
Agents in London, Perth, Freemantle, etc.
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Yes! thank-you. After WW1 he could have resumed the old job on a different set of routes etc, eventually settling in Australia apon retirement from sea. The entry passenger lists 1924 is certainly him I think- is there a way of finding passenger and crew lists into Australia,? I have never been sure whether my Ernest took Julia to Australia and left her there to make her own way home, or wether she was left in London--the family story varies on this- as it does on the general dates all this happened!
Sally
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Google New Archive search brings up many references to the Austalind which ran routes from Australia to NY and to London.
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I don´t know if this is the same article that you already found:
http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1999907
An article in the Argus, 8 Nov 1923 which describes the court case in which Ernest was a witness against James Thomas Jones, farmer, and Charles Edwin Jones, salesman, who were accused [and convicted] of cheating and defrauding several people including Ernest himself.
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IGI has records (submitted):
Ernest Edward Warren born 1871 Grace Harbour died 6 May 1925
Death Jun qtr 1925
Ernest E. WARREN aged 53
Whitechapel 1c 190
Anna :)
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Yes, that was the article-very odd I thought, about the lost memory- it made me wonder if that Ernest was totally an innocent victim, and whether it is the same Ernest as the Canada one. I saw the death registration- looks like I should buy the cert to find out if its the same man-or one of them- I didnt before because I had always assumed that my Ernest should have died in Australia-- first thing tomorrow I will have a £7 punt!!
thank-you again, sally
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There is an Ernest E. Warren listed in the 1919 Sydney & NSW directory at Roscrae Ave., R’wick. [no occupation mentioned, no Julia at that address]
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mmm--so if he is the same man as on the Australind, he was based in Australia at least at 1919, is this a "postal" directory,or a trades directory? I mean, could he be listed as you would be in a phone book even though he may not often be at that address??
Sally
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It's called Sands Directories: Sydney and New South Wales, Australia. Ancestry has the directories for most years from 1858 to 1933. I'm going to check some other years to see if I can turn him up.
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1920 – Ernest E. Warren, Roscrae Ave., R’wick.
1924 - Ernest E. Warren, Villier’s Ave., Pensh’st
1925 - Ernest E. Warren, Villier’s Ave., Pensh’st
Sorry, but this appears to be a red herring. There is an Ernest E. Warren listed at that last address until at least 1931.
Why don't you post a message on the Australia board to see if someone there can find out more details about the trial? That might shed some light on what the scandal was [if it is the right Ernest and the right scandal].
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Thank-you so much for these details--brilliant.
Well, that seems to mean that the EEW in the Directories is not the one who died in London, but I suppose it might still be the one involved in the trial, and it might still be the one married to my Julia, Great result though! I shall take your good advice and try the Australia board- and hold off from ordering the death certificate just yet--- Thank-you , Sally
Link to thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,375395.0.html
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Karen---
"About, the burial, maybe he's buried in England, but they have made reference to him on the stone in NFLD and someone has assumed his body is in the grave"
Ah- just realized what you meant, how stupid of me!!! Of course its a commemoration, why would you take a body all the way back to Canada when the other half of the family are in England. Thank-you!!!
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LOL Sally
Perhaps a check at the cemetery in Harbor Grace could confirm if his body is actually there.
There is a rootschatter from NFLD and I have passed the link on to her in the event she can help.
Karen
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Hello Sally,
I would imagine that being a sea captain Ernest's family may have had the funds to bring his body home from England for burial. Everything I have read says Ernest was buried in Harbour Grace. However it is also possible that the grave stone is mearly a memorial marker. The Newfoundland Historical Society gives this info for queries.
If you have a Newfoundland-related research question, Please contact the Centre for Newfoundland Studies http://www.library.mun.ca/forms/askalibrariannl.php
Hope this helps,
Wee
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Thank-you for that, I shall try them.
And thank-you all again for your interest- as suggested I posted about this on the Australia board- truly great IDEA-- thank-you especially to Judith, if any one here is not bored rigid with this story- it appears to be carrying on over in Australia.
Thanks again!! Sally
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Great Sally!
Please let us know once you get the death certificate, hopefully there might be a clue on it.
Karen
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Hello Wee Bairn- I got a message from you concerning my search for Mahers in Newfoundland. Thank you. I am trying to do a Maher Family Tree for my mom's 80th b'day coming up too soon. Her gr grandparents were Patrick and Johanna Maher. They were in Greenpond 1857 and guessing this was year they were married. They had three children John, Amelia and Thomas - Thomas is my gr grandfather. I think I found Johanna - died in Logy Bay in 1929 at 90 yrs old. Then found her living with young couple John and Annie McGrath. Johanna was grandmother to one of these two. John was born in St. John's and Annie was born in Pouch cove. My email address is (*) What part of NL are you from? I visit NS and wondering where in NS you live. Hoping to hear from you. I do not come here often so please email me. And info would be greatly appreciated. Marilyn Hayward (Bonavista Haywards)
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Hi from Calgary
Ernest Edwin Warren was born in Harbour Grace 6 April 1871 to James S Warren and wife Annie nee Alcock. My Martin roots are in Harbour Grace (we arrived from the Channel Islands circa 1450, a little before the official discovery, or so the oral tradition goes) and I link to the family of Ernest. I do not know if you have resolved all of the issues on him but his three daughters were Elsie, Gwen and Freda in my records.
Geoff Martin
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After a surprise bit of news yesterday from my father when he mentioned this name, I appear to have discovered part of my ancestry, something I never expected, or even looked for. I recognise many names mentioned in these emails as I am the grand-daughter of the Gwen(dolyn) mentioned.
This has all come as a bit of a shock, to say the very least.
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I can't post my e-mail here but if you go to the Newfoundland genealogy site http://ngb.chebucto.org/ and search for my name at the top of the page with the About tab there will be a drop down in the contributors list and there will be a connection for me there. I can send you a photo of James Warren, the father of Ernest. James was the brother of my g grandfather William Samuel Warren.
In an extract from the 1924 obituary of William Samuel "Mr. Warren was born in Trinity 80 years ago, and served his apprenticeship with his father, one of the most famous shipbuilders in Newfoundland. The Warrens in the shipbuilding industry of Newfoundland ranked with the famous Kearney, Newhooks, Rowes and others of their class, who put out of hand our famous ocean greyhounds."
Geoff Martin
Calgary, AB, Canada
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Welcome to rootschat, both :). What an interesting thread with recent developments!!
alunno-a has not been online since Tuesday 31 May 16 but should get an email telling her of the last 2 posts. When you have both made 3 posts [just reply to this thread acknowledging each other] you can exchange personal messages with your email addresses by clicking on the text icon under their name. But please do also enlighten us if new facts have come to light about Ernest [including the 1925 death certificate].
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Oh, thank you for the explaining, I'll do my best!
I'll visit that site after that. My father knew (some) of the story of the being drugged etc. and believed that he had quite a reasonable job at sea. Between that and then understanding why places like Ilford figured in conversations when I was young makes so much more sense now.
I'll ask my father more when I speak to him tomorrow. I know that there are many photographs (somewhere) as my grandmother and her sister Julia were very into their photography, I believe professionally.