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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Tom Piper on Sunday 19 April 09 17:39 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me with this family-a Jewish family, originally from Posen, Prussia. Phillip Grzimish, bn. 1816, a jeweller and his wife Esther bn. 1823. were in Aldgate in 1861 and eventually had 7 children.
Philip died in 1889 in Chelsea and she in 1884, but what happened to the children? For example Adelaide married in 1888, but her partner is not clear.
My interest came from Bertha, born 1855, who married a John Walter Lee, and was in 36, Houndsditch road in 1891, but after that? Her daughter, Isa Bertha Mabel born 1880 made three good marriages, first to a solicitor from Southport called Perry, then to a Leopold van De Water and finally to the son of Sir George Doughty, Wilfred in 1919. She died in 1994.
Maybe their names were anglified, or they emigrated? Any suggestions?
Tom
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Hi
The son registered as Israel Grzimish in Shoreditch, 1854 (enumerated as Israel in 1861 and as Isidore in 1871) may have emigrated to Australia - an IGI submitted record at www.familysearch.org suggests that he married a Rose Hannah Jones in Australia in 1883.
Daughter Julia seems to have married a Michael Joseph in 1871 (based on the fact that the other couple on the same page, Benjamin Woolf Hyman and Pheobe Cohen, appear to have married each other and appear in a later census as "Wolf" and Phoebe Hyman).
Anna :)
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A Pedigree Resource File at www.familysearch.org suggests that "Ada" (Adelaide?) Grzimish married Simon Davis on 4 Mar 1881, which ties in with the FreeBMD record for her. Per FreeBMD it seems to have been Rebecca who married in 1888.
Anna
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Tom,
Philp Grizmish [sic] (Hebrew name Gedalia s/o Israel ha-Levi) married Esther Barnet (HN: Ester d/o Ari Yehuda Leib) in the Great Synagogue on 9 Apr 1851.
This very unusual surname may have originated from a place now called Pleszew (know as Pleschen in German).
I'll be back with more details.
Justin
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Thanks guys, I forgot family Search, but yes there's the marriage to an Esther Barnett. The Aussie connection may well be a good clue as when I Googled the name a researcher in Oz turned up with a bigpond e-mail address which is Melbourne I think.
I saw that marriage of Rebecca in 1888, but when I looked on 1891 census no sign of a Rebecca Freeman, the man's name for one of the partners.
Okay Ada in 1881, will look that up as well for census as well maybe.
I will try a contact in Oz on the Digger and Pioneer index for Oz and see what happens there.
Tom
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If it was anglicized, then GRZIMEK is a possibility, and I think there are names like GRZIMISCK or similar.
Bob
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I saw that marriage of Rebecca in 1888, but when I looked on 1891 census no sign of a Rebecca Freeman, the man's name for one of the partners.
Unfortunately it seems to be Rebecca's husband who is missing from FreeBMD, as the other couple seem to have married each other (see Benjamin and Dora FREEMAN in the 1891 census at RG12/306/24/44).
Anna
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Justin,
Esther Barnet sounds very English, when the census of 1871 says she was from Prussia. I am very ignorant when it comes to Jewish names; so do I take it that Esther's father's name was Ari Yehuda Laib? The great synagogue, where was that exactly. I have Googled that name and came up with a synagogue in Fieldgate Street, but that opened in 1899.
I sounds to me that Philip Grzimish came to England fleeing persecution in Prussia; is that right and that there was a huge number of his fellow countryman living in the Aldgate area of London in the 1850's?
Philip (Hebrew name Gedalia son of Israel ha-Levi) could you explain what that means please?
Tom
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Hello Tom,
The Great Synagogue was really on of London's finest. Established in 1620, it was rebuilt on the same site of Duke's Place, Aldgate in 1790. It was sadly destroyed in the WWII.
Although Esther is, of course, simply a biblical name, combined with Barnet it is a fairly obvious anglicized Jewish name.
Esther's father's name illustrates some of complexities of Jewish naming practice.
Yehuda was his main name (Judah in English). Yehuda's father, Jacob, likened his son to a lion at some point. The Hebrew for lion is ariyeh, which used as forename and often shortened to Ari. The Yiddish word for lion is Laib/Leib/Leyb (pronounced 'libe').
The father had the double Hebrew name Yehuda Ariyeh and the Yiddish nickname Laib.
It his likely that his father's forename was Baruch (the same origin as Presdient Obama's forename), which was commonly anglicized to Barnet.
Now to Philip; his Hebrew name - name as the shem kodesh (holy name) - was used in Hebrew documents, e.g. birth, marriage, divorce docs etc., as well as to call him up in the synagogue to read a blessing.
Ha-Levi is Hebrew for 'the Levite', which means that he and his male ancestors were supposedly descended from the tribe of Levi. In Jewish hierarchy, this was second only to kohanim (Cohens = the priests). A web search will reveal thousands of links for further reading.
To my knowledge, the Jews in Prussia were not subjected to the Russian-style pogroms at that time. The most likely reason for emigration was simply financial - in many parts of the Prussian empire, it was difficult for Jews to earn a living - or military service in the Prussian army. All men of 21 were obliged to do seven years of military service. I think that was the cause of my ancestors' emigration in the 1870s.
The GS register records the surname spelled Grizmish. A more common spelling is Gryzmisch - the 'sch' being germanized. However, you'll also see Grzymisch or Grzymish. I cannot recognise a Jewish orogin. Maybe one of our Polish experts can recognise some Polish root.
I'll let you absorb this.
Justin
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Justin,
That's fascinating, and when I looked on the 1851 census I found that Esther's father was indeed
Arie Lieb Barnett, born 1798 in Prussia, Rabbi of the St James Place Synagogue, so that must be the Great Synagogue you were talking about above.
All the siblings of Esther, like English families, had the forenames repeated, so there is an Adelaide a Baron, and of course an Abraham, but also a Louisa and a Jane. That Pleszew looks a fun place to visit, from a website of the town in Poland. My wife says that maybe we are related to the President of the United States!!
Abraham and Esther were born in Prussia, but the others were born in London, that was Louisa aged 14, so 1837 or so. Now where do I go from there to discover arrival dates in GB from say Poland/Prussia, perhaps Rootschat Poland would help maybe, this is all very new stuff altogether.
Tom
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Hi Tom !
Sometime when you have nothing to do .... ::) ... you may find this interesting !! at least it will give you some background !
http://www.thorngent.eclipse.co.uk/roth/index.htm
I found this site when I was looking for my Jewish officer from the Boer War ... his family were very involved with the Great Synagogue !
Annie :)
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Tom,
I'm in a bit of rush.
Aryeh Leib Barnett was born in Krotoschin in 1798. He was the son of Rabbi Issacher Baier.
You can read more on the web.
Quite an illustrious ancestry!
Justin
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Justin and Annie,
Thank you both for all this great reading.
I have just located a relation to Abraham Barnett in Australia, originally in New Zealand, maybe part of the original group who went to NZ from the synagogue as he is mentioned on the 1841 census but not in the 1851.
Tom
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No that's not right Abraham is there in 1851, in London, at the Great Synagogue, but not there in 1861.
Tom
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26 Sept 2009 From an Aussie descendant - the surname was changed to Grimish and there is a wealth of information available on Australian free sites Judy 4152
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Thanks Judy
Tom
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Hello Tom, i am an Australian connection to your Philip and Esther, their son Samuel married Jane(Emily)phillips and lived in Brisbane Australia.My Grandmother was Clara Grimish(name change) Samuel and Janes daughter.If i can be of any help on the Australian side let me know as there are a few family members who have alot of info. I was intered in Philip grzimish as i have been able to find alot on Esther and her family. Do you know Philip's parents name or much on his life in London.. :)
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My great grandparents were Bertha Grzymisch and John Walter Lee. They had a son as well as a daughter, my grandfather Alfred Lee who spent a good deal of time in the British Army in places like Khartoum in the Sudan campaign and South Africa during the Boer war. I inherited a pair of oil paintings of Phillip and Esther done when they were in there mid thirties (by my guess).
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Hi PR lee,thank you for sharing those wonderful oil paintings,they are just wonderful.Very handsome couple i must say.Philip and Esther are my great great Grandparents on my fathers side.My dads mum was a Grimish(GRZYMISCH).So was Bertha Grzymisch philip's sister.I did have a list of their siblings but my filing is not to great.Do you have any info on Philips parents,did they stay in Prussia as it seems alot of them moved to London to live but i haven't heard anything about philips parents.I have been lucky enough to find abit on Esther Barnett,which i find very exciting reading. The name Barnett has been past on to my Dads Uncle who was in WW1,do have a little info if interested .also can tell abit about the Brisbane side of Grimish if needed. CHEERS hd 8)
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Hi Prlee
What an incredible piece of information!
Miriam Maud Lee, was the daughter of John Walter Lee and Bertha Grzymisch, not Isa Mabel as at the beginning of this thread. It was Miriam Maud who married thrice, first to Walter Perry the solicitor of Southport, whom she bore a daughter, Isa Mabel Bertha Perry. Walter passed his law exams in 1894 according to the Times.
This is the report of her third marriage to Wilfred Doughty in the Grimsby Telegraph 5th August 1918, which confirms her second marriage,. Is that your great grandmother at the wedding (mother of the bride)
MARRIAGE OF MR. W V DOUGHTY, J.P.
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CEREMONY IN LONDON YESTERDAY
The marriage took place quietly yesterday at Holy Trinity Church Brompton, of Councillor Wilfred Vere Doughty, B.A. J.P. of Waltham Hall, the only son of the late Sir George Doughty M.P., to Mrs. Miriam Van de Water of Harrington Court, South Kensington.
The ceremony, which was favoured by ideal weather, the bright genial sunshine lending an added charm to the beautiful interior of the church, was witnessed by a small parade of friends, amongst whom were Mrs. R. Lee (mother of the bride).
The bride’s mother was attired in a black charmeuse embroidered with jet, with beautiful charmeuse cloak lined with flowered nylon and a black velvet and tulle turban trimmed with black ospreys. She carried a sheaf of orchids.
Later in the afternoon Mr. and Mrs. W. V. Doughty left for their honeymoon which was being spent on the south coast. The bride on going away wore a white tailor-made costume and a Serbian embroidered cap and she carried an elegant ivory walking stick with monogram presented to her by the bridegroom. A number of beautiful wedding gifts were received.
I think the south coast resort was Bournemouth-Wilfred owned a house there.
Isa Mabel Bertha married Thomas Docksey, but they later divorced. I have other info on Miriam Maud should you be interested.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Very fascinating vignette of my great aunt's 3rd marriage. My dad called her Auntie Tids. Anyway, Philip Baron Grzimish was the son of Israel Halevi Grzymisch (1772 to 1843) of Pleschen and Posen in Prussia. Israel's wife was woman named Jette. Their children were Sura (or Dora), Moses Levy, Philip Baron, Maryann, Ernestine and Baer. Philip married Esther Barnett and had the following children:
Julia (1852-1892) m. Michael Joseph and then Henry Bandmacher
Isadore(Israel) (1854-1929) m. Rose Hannah Jones in 1883
Bertha Flora (c1855- ) m. John Lee in 1876
Rebecca (Rose) (1856 - )m. Baron Louis Benas (1844-1914)
Samuel (1857-1902) m. Emily Jane Phillips in 1876
Baron(Bernard) (1861-1937)
Adelaide(1863- ) m. Simon Davis
I have more information about their descendants if anyone is interested
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Hi Tom:
How did you come by that fascinating article from the Grimsby Telegraph?
Cheers'
prlee
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prlee,
It's fortunate that the Grimsby Telegraph was originally owned by Wilfred's father Sir George Doughty who used the newspaper for his own political aims. Wilfred, the bridegroom in this report, became its editor. Then in Grimsby at the time, anything "Doughty" was reported on, except when Sir George's wife was named in a divorce case-that was reported in a rival Hull newspaper! Having an interest in the Doughty family I have a collection of newspaper articles relating to them-they are not online, so it's a matter of looking at microfilm, photocopying & typing out the result-quite a task but well worth it.The library staff are very helpful at the library, so should you want to know anything just ask-they have a very good local history library, and the local North East Lincolnshire Archives at Grimsby has quite a collection of articles on the fishing industry-Sir George owned a fishing fleet both in Grimsby & later in the Pacific north west.
When Isa Mabel Bertha Perry had her 21st birthday at Grimsby Town Hall the newspaper reported on it!
Tom
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Thank you prlee for your information on Philip Grzymisch ,i have never been able to find anything on his parents,very interesting .Do you know if they stayed in Prussia or moved to London like Philip.Philips son Samuel was my greatgrandfather which i have some info on .His wife Emily Jane died very Young and all the children were sent to foster care apparently,do you know anything about this especially about Clara(my gran).Thank you again for any information i do appreciate it CHEERS hd 8)
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Hi all,
Having upgraded my subscription to a well-known Family History resource, I have now learnt Mrs. Miriam Van de Water of Harrington Court, London on the marriage record at the church on 7th August 1918, not 4th August as above, stated her age was 35, making her birth around 1883! Then to confuse matters further, both their respective fathers are mentioned on the record as is usual; Wilfred Doughty the groom, is George Doughty, Knight & JP, and the bride's, is Robert and a gentleman. The trouble is that George was dead at the time-he died in 1914, and the bride isn't given away by her father, but by her brother in law a Mr. Sutcliffe. The bride's mother, Prlee's Aunt Tids, is mentioned as Mrs R. Lee, which confirms with name of bride's father.
I have realised why I made the mistake about the marriage date, I mis-read the date at the top of the newspaper as 5th August when it is actually 8th August!
When Mrs. Miriam Maud Doughty died in 1963 she left several thousand pounds, again my new subscription provided probate records, showing her aged 83, so born 1880 not 1883, so maybe she being a woman lied about her age! But I just wonder who was Robert Lee and have a made the wrong conclusion.
Tom
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Hi everybody in this chat!
I was googling my name, which i do once or twice a year, and found this chat for the first time.
I am not an expert genealoger? (if the word exists), but I think that you guys may be the British part of my family.
I was born in Argentina (too many years ago), OK, in 1949, to German parents. Both my parents flew Germany just before the war. From family tales, I know that the origins were somewhere in Prussia, and that the name goes back to the Austro-Hungarian Empire's time.
I know certainly that my grandfather (father's side) was Georg Grzymisch, born on December 01, 1878 in Pleschen. His father was Samuel Grzymisch, also born in Pleschen and his mother was Sophie Grzymisch nee Badt, Born in Grätz. My great-grandparents were Moses Grzymisch and Röschen Grzymisch nee Lewzyk. I have no birth dates of all those named w/o the date.
Because in the chat many of you mentioned Preussen an Pleschen, I think there has to be a relation somewhere, even if the name is spelled different, but basically, in my opinion, it has to be originated in the same family.
If anybody wants to catch up on this matter I would be very happy to receive news.
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HI,just looking through Roots Chat and came across you message and thought i would send you some info.My Great Great grand father was a Philip Grzimish(Gryzmisch)who also came from Prussia and lived in London until his death.His son Samuel came to Australia and married Emily Jane Philips,Their daughter Clara was my grandmother.Don't know much about Philip but have a little info on our Samuel, who was a Taylor in Brisbane Australia for many years. Philip and Esther grzimish had came from an area in Prussia called Prosen philip was the son of Israel ha-Levi Gryzimish and Jette ,Esther was the daughter of Dayan,Rabbi Aryeh Loeb Barnett-Lichtenstad.I am an Australian connection of this name and would be pleased to help if i can CHEERS : :D
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Hi I have just joined Rootchat and found this thread. My grandmother was Bessie Grimish, daughter of Isidore Grimish. I have information/photographs about the family which I am just beginning to sort through. Most of this material relates to Isidore and his family life in Australia.
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Phillip Grzimish of 30 and 35 Houndsditch, City of London, Jeweller, was involved in Bankruptcy in 1862 (at 30 Houndsditch) and 1867 (at 35 Houndsditch). London Gazette.
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HI Jax 54,going by what i have been able to find in our family history ,Isidore and my great grand father Samuel where brothers.Samuel and his wife lived in Brisbane and their daughter Clara was my grandmother. Unfortunately i never got to meet her as she died very Young. Their is a lot of family history available here in Brisbane . I have never seen a picture of Samuel or his wife Emily Jane so if you have anything i would love to see them. I do have a copy of the picture of Phillip and Esther (very impressive) you have posted. I think Isidore might have lived in QLD at one stage,as you can see there has been some great help from others on this wonderful site ....Cheers HD
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HD Thanks for this. Know I have photo of Baron their brother. It is interesting that both Samuel and Isidore worked in hotels.