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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: khunjohn on Wednesday 22 April 09 08:00 BST (UK)
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Wanting to piece together every scrap of info on the Bohemia Estate Eastwood so that a broader knowledge can be gained and connections
made.
In particular:
Brown
Chillingstone or Chillystone or Chillistone or Chillystone-Lamb
Lamb
connections to Maldon Essex and certain origins in Norfolk and Suffolk
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hello khunjohn
very interested in this topic, hope you get some replies. :)
happy to help if i can. do you live that area yourself?
a.
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My familly (Brown) used to live at 83 Bohemia Chase
originally bought by James Brown and wife Eliza nee Gasken at one point Chillingstone and apparently a Lamb.
If anybody has time and inclination I would love pics of St. Lawrence and All
Saints Churchyard graves. I live in Asia and find the distance hard to cover nowadays.
Some graves were lost when a carpark was put in many years ago. Among those lost were childrens graves Brown, Lamb and Bibby.
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hello again,
sorry for delay i had a problem with my pc last night but seems ok today.
i am very interested in the quote (Some graves were lost when a carpark was put in many years ago. Among those lost were childrens graves Brown, Lamb and Bibby) as have been told that there were some bibby graves of children but have been unable to find them.
i will come back on after work today and send you some photos of the church.
i have quite a few lists of surnames for that church. they are on another thread (eastwood church, eastwood essex) but for some reason it is locked which i think means you cannot message on it but you can look at it. it may be of interest to you. :)
a.
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I have not lived in the area for over 30 years but as a cjild i had to go every Saturday to the cementary to tend the graves.
The last time I was there about 20 years ago a carpark had been built over the area that contained in my memory almost exclusivly childrens graves, all marked.
Among them Brown, Lamb and Bibby. Along what was then the wall of the cementary in the same area where shrubs and things grew there was a particularly big tree, in that area there were more graves, babes and toddlers,
all unmarked.
I was told that we were related to the Bibby's.
Sorry my drawing iis so aweful but hope it helps
(*) Chiangmai, Thailand
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Hi Khunjohn
Some members of my Smith, Draper and Boswell families of interest are living at Bohemia Estate in the 1911 census and are buried at St Lawrence's.
Happy to share my information.
Best wishes
Sharon
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it wont let me add my photos sorry. will have to try email instead, when you're ready.
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Hi, I'm new. I've become interested in the gypsy/traveller presence in Eastwood through trying to separate the myth from fact in the stories about George Pickingill and "Silly Bill" Spearman and other alleged wizards/witches. Fanny Bird, Nelly Button. Whether or not George Pickingill was of gypsy kin is a relevant question for those of us interested in this area....
According to folklorist Eric Maple the gypsy presence in Eastwood dates from the 1870s after evictions from Epping Forest. I'm guessing that it is in fact much earlier (and some posts I've seen on this site tend to confirm that without putting it beyond doubt).
Excuse me if this is a silly question btw, I live in Australia!
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hi jeremytrewindixon, welcome.
what exactly is the question you are asking?
i have never heard of these names (except spearman) but it sounds fascinating :)
are these books availablein public librairies?
hope you get some help with this topic.
a.
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Hi aa1webb , thanks for the welcome.
The exact question I am asking is "For how long has there been a significant gypsy population at Eastwood, Essex ?"
The background to this question is the mystery (in some circles the controversy!) concerning the "cunning folk" of the area, notably George Pickingill (or Pettingale, Pickengale etc), ?1816 -1909, of Hockley, Eastwood, Canewdon and elsewhere.
The man doing most of the genealogical research into this area at the moment calls himself "Bill the Exile" and the relevant part of his site is at:
http://www.deadfamilies.com/Z3-Others/Pickingill-Index-Page.htm
You may find some material that more generally deals with your interests, and more is I believe projected.
The controversy about Pickingill largely concerns whether he was on the one hand a run-of-the-mill village cunning man or whether he had a sphere of influence very much greater than that. The evidence for the latter opinion largely rests on the testimony of one Bill Liddell, so the credibility of Bill Liddell's information is an important issue. He has always insisted that Pickingill was of Romany kin. This was not mentioned by the folklorist who first publicized Pickingill (that was Eric Maple in a series of articles in the journal Folklore, it is available on JSTOR) so it is I think a bit of a test issue as to Liddell's broader credibility.
Maple traces the gypsy connection to Eastwood back to he 1870s. But (for example) you will see from Bill the Exile's page that George Pickingill was apparently living in Tinkers Lane Eastwood before then. The question is, does this add to the circumstantial evidence that Pickingill was of gyspy kin or not?
The Pickingill/Pettingale name appears to derive from "Portingale", meaning Portugal or Portugese, (although that is disputed like everything else on this subject); and there is a record of a George Portingale, "Captain of Egyptians" in Essex in 1611. (George was not then such a common forename as it became..) That is breaking news, so to speak, so I don't quite know how significant it is.....
Fanny Bird and Nelly Button were among the many reputed witches of southern Essex, they're mentioned in Maples' articles and turn up on census records...The "Silly Bill" Spearman Maple mentions ("of the well known gypsy family" or words to that effect) was supposed to live in Latchingdon but I haven't so far found any record of him.
An important article on Cunning Murrell, published in 1900, is at:
http://www.witchgrotto.com
I personally first became interested in this subject writing an article on Pickingill for wikipedia; the article is out-of-date now but has some still useful links, it is at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pickingill
I could go on but this will be more than enough!
Best, Jeremy
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hello jeremy, :)
firstly i can only answer this by what my gran would say which is that gypsy people did not like to mess with magic, ever.
secondly, the names of these people are not known to be obvious gypsy surnames, but you never know for sure.
thirdly, the professions of these people, including servants etc, is definatly not what any of my gypsy ancestors would do.
travelling people worked for themselves or their own families, i.e; flower making/selling, peg making/selling, basket making/selling, reading palms, selling horses, etc.
i live in essex and have to say that canewdon has always been associated with witches and stuff and people will drive for miles to see canewdon church at a certain time/day?
tinkers lane is now officially under rochfrod district but i dont know that it is associated with gypsy's more like tinkers ??? (again tales from my old gran) but i think its quite possible that this lane might have lead through to canewdon way, a bit like a shortcross through the fields!!! thats just a theory ::)
sorry not to be much help.
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Hi again, aa1webb .
Thanks for your help.......I don't know that the Pickingills were claimed to be Romany proper, but of Romany kin, so that some of them were servants and that they dabbled in magic etc is not fatal I think....
Pickingill himself is repeatedly listed as an "agricultural labourer"....Liddell describes him as a horse dealer. Maple's article "Witchcraft in the Dengie Hundred" describes Spearman of Latchingdon also as an agricultural labourer without much in the way of detail, but he allegedly used his power over machinery in defence of labour conditions ...so it seems that people at least of gyspy origins were capable of being employees. Pickingill also according to the stories Maple collected interested himslef in a wage dispute on at least one (but apparently typical) occasion.
I'm on the other side of the world and am just piecing this together and am aware of my ignorance, please don't mistake my willingness to make theories based on what I do know for arrogance......but my theory is that these people have to be understood in the light of groups like the Horseman's Word and Toadmen.
However all that may be, my specific question is about how long there has been a significant gypsy colony at Eastwood? Does it really only date back to the 1870s as implied by Maple? If it is true that Epping Forest gypsies relocated to Eastwood in the 1870s, why did they choose Eastwood?
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hello again,
i have been going through some old notes of my own and found that a family of "spearman" in 1881 in brays cottage canewdon road. no "bill/william" though.
in 1861 in ashingdon there is a golden spearman 20yr.
wakering, foulness, canewdon etc, were all farming areas's, still are actually. rochfrod was small village, more pubs than homes, lol. ;D
one of the first marriages i have relates to eastwood, name of david print, used name of webb also. so there were gypsy's in eastwood before 1870 as this marriage was 1857, in the church that this thread about, eastwood (st laurence & all saints ) church.
hope this helps towards answering your question.
amanda
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Thanks, this is in fact all helpful. Its like putting one of those great big jigsaws together, eh? A jigsaw that was bought from an op shop (a "charity shop" I think you say in UK) so you don't know how many pieces are missing....
I have many other questions (such as the implications of the forename "Golden") but don't want to sidetrack this thread too much....
An e-mail list where I sometimes post stuff related to my specific interest is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pickingill/ Since south eastern Essex is the core relevant area you might from time to time find some information of use to you there.
Best, j
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Hi J
I have a number of Gypsies called Golden in the Hope family I'm researching - but if you take a look at any records for Essex, you'll find it's surprisingly widely used as a forename in that county.
That fact has also been confirmed to me by Fred Feather of the Essex FHS.
Always interested in any sightings of Golden Hopes - who started out in Essex but also went into Kent, Hampshire and Dorset.
Sharon
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Hi
I've just tried a search for 'Bohemia' on the Essex Record Office site - http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk - and some interesting refs come up to owners of wooden bungalows in Bohemia Chase in the 1920s and 30s. Webb, Buckley, Gray and Smith are among the names mentioned.
Has anyone ever seen these records? They seem to be building plans.
Sharon
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hello citizensmith,
thanks for that info, my grandfathers were william & thomas webb and also have buckley's and devonshires in my tree so for me very interesting. ;D
i never knew this site existed, is it new?
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Hi aa1Webb,
On the same page as my m in law's baptism record 15th July 1906 is Olive daughter of Thomas & Helen Webb. This is taken from West Walton records, on the borders of Cambridgeshire and Norfolk.
Any connections?
Lavina
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hi lavina
dont have that name in my tree as yet but thank you for the details, i will keep them if thats ok with you as you never know who's going to pop up when researching :D
olive is a name that does run through my ancestors so it would not surprise me .
thank you again ;)
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hello citizensmith,
thanks for that info, my grandfathers were william & thomas webb and also have buckley's and devonshires in my tree so for me very interesting. ;D
i never knew this site existed, is it new?
Hi
The Essex RO site isn't new. It's had its catalogue online for several years - but I'd never searched for the Bohemia Estate before.
I note that one of the Buckleys - Otley - is described as being the owner of a wooden bungalow on wheels . That building plan would really be worth seeing.
Must say, Devonshire isn't a name I've come across before. Does it belong to Essex?
Best wishes
Sharon
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hello sharon,
i have devonshires marrying into my webb line and they seem have been in eastwood for quite a few years (some use the surname of boscoe rather than devonshire, dont know if that name may mean more to you)
what did you put in to get the details for otley buckley, ? would definatley like to see that.
i did a search for caravans and tents to. some details appear which was surprising as i wasnt sure if it would register. :D
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hello sharon,
dont worry i found it. 8) thanks hello citizensmith,
thanks for that info, my grandfathers were william & thomas webb and also have buckley's and devonshires in my tree so for me very interesting. ;D
i never knew this site existed, is it new?
Hi
The Essex RO site isn't new. It's had its catalogue online for several years - but I'd never searched for the Bohemia Estate before.
I note that one of the Buckleys - Otley - is described as being the owner of a wooden bungalow on wheels . That building plan would really be worth seeing.
Must say, Devonshire isn't a name I've come across before. Does it belong to Essex?
Best wishes
Sharon
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Through tracing my family tree i have found out that my great uncle Oscar Smith and great aunt Beatrice Boswell ran away to southend to get married and were married in eastwood church, they eventually settled in bishop stortford. however many of my family lived in and around eastwood including rochford
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Through tracing my family tree i have found out that my great uncle Oscar Smith and great aunt Beatrice Boswell ran away to southend to get married and were married in eastwood church, they eventually settled in bishop stortford. however many of my family lived in and around eastwood including rochford
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hi there,
nice to hear from you. :)
sorry non of those names match up with any of my webbs, but thats not to say that they might as time goes by or that i may come accross them while im searching for my webbs.
wish i could be of help as i have seen your other threads and you dont seem to be having much luck trying to trace them. ???
have you been to the ERO for a search?
happy hunting, good luck andrew
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Hi all
If anyone has already obtained an original 1911 census page for their family at Bohemia Estate, there's a useful new facility now available at no extra cost :) that shows you the surnames of the heads of household of all the other families living there. This was added at the end of last week.
To get this free info, you need to:
• Go to www.1911census.co.uk and register as usual
• Click on MY ACCOUNT at the top right of the page
• Click on MY RECORDS in the blue box on the left-hand side of the page
• You'll be presented with a list of all the pages you've viewed or downloaded to date.
• Click on the VIEW button beside any one.
• The image will appear with a number of new buttons above it. Click on the one labelled LIST.
• You'll then be presented with a a new image – a list of the surnames of the other heads of household who were neighbours living in the same street as your people.
It's very useful for finding out if your people were living in a tent or van on their own or living with other others in an encampment – and for the Bohemia/n Estate the LIST page shows there were 118 people living in 24 caravans and two tents by the surnames of:
Wayland
Wayland
Livermore
Osborne
Harriss (spelt like that)
Goody
Livermore
Smith
Smith
Buckley
Smith
Smith
Bukley (spelt like that)
Boswell
Draper
Taplin
Gray
Barr
Smith
Webb
Scarrott
Harriss
Bibby
Webb
Hope this helps! :)
Best wishes
Sharon
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thank you for that information, i tried it but i think you have to have opened the original view page as i dont have any "list" to view. :'(
shame, never mind though. i am sure it will help someoneelse.
thanks again. ;D
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Hi
Yes - as I said at the beginning of my message, you only get to use this facility if you've already paid for an image - which I had for a couple of the families at Bohemia Estate, Drapers and Smiths - the latter actually being Drapers.
Sharon
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My g grandfather John Livermore and wife Mary 'Polly' Chillystone first had train carriages on their plot of land in Belgrave Road before building their bungalow. My Nan was Matilda Livermore who married Elias 'Nobby' Loveridge. My mum remembers having to go to their house on a Saturday to clean on the brass....... Poor love there would have been loads of the stuff as well.
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1911 Census
Bohemia Estate:
Livermore Familly
John Livermore w. Maria nee Chillingstone, Gaskin, Lamb
Ch. John, Mathilda and William
Bubby familly
John Bibby m. Zilbie
Ch. Emmanuel and Amelia
Harris familly
Walter Harris m. Celia
Ch. Rosie and Kate
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re: Pickingill-Pettingale-Pickingale
a long shot but a suggestion
traveller famillies had their own names and names they used
with non traveller famillies.
I cann't remember the exact name but: if Pettingale came from
Pettingru (will try and find the correct name) it would be equal to
Smith in Roma language.
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just been reading this with a lot of interest. my dad was a lamb .he was meshack[shacky] lamb .but they where all orginally called chillingstones lamb. and they had when younger lived up on the bohemia estate and so did my mum who was a buckley
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Re Sylvia Chillingstone Lamb
The male line of the familly is Lamb-for reasons to me unknown
Lamb married to Gaskin in the 19th centuary changed to Chillingstone
the wife Gaskins grandmothers maiden name and eventually became
Lamb or Chillingstone or Chillingstone lamb depending at what point of time
one looks.
Meshack (Shacky) as a name runs through the familly for quite a few generations.
A Meschack Lamb from Bohemia Chase died in 1st World War.
A Meshack (Shack) Brown, son of Eliza Lamb, born Gaskin married Chillingstone
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the shacky lamb that died in world war 1 .was my dads uncle. then when my dad was born in 1920 like a lot of others in them days was named after the uncle which died . but chillingstone was dropped and just became lamb
but shacky brown was my dads first cousin
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Sylvia
I have a WW1 memorial medal/plaque for Shack Lamb (Meschack)
somewhere on my computor I have his death records and pic of grave in France too.
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;D its all good stuff this is'nt it?
amazing to be sharing all this info with each other :)
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i cant believe how many people i have bumped into in here .and didt know i could be related to .but its great
sylvie
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hi i wonder if anyone know who leana harris married she born in eastwood 1904daughter of george and beatrice harris
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i believe my aunt leana may have married a chignel if thats the way to spell it
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hi there,
i have found harris family at eastwood essex for 1911
george head 30
beartice wife 29
leana daug 7
louisa daug 5
george son 2
children listed as beign born in eastwood and parents listed as being married 4 yrs
a.
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thanks a lot slowly its coming together I do apprecaite the info twinny
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Hi ,
I was wondering if the drapers u r researching would have a Frances M Draper marrying a Sheldrick Brooks aprox 1930's as i'm researching the Brooks. essex.
Any help appreciated.
Thankyou
Caroline
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i believe my aunt leana may have married a chignel if thats the way to spell it
Hi Twinny
There's a record of a Linda Harris marrying an Albert Chignell, September quarter 1926, Rochford registration district. Could that be your Leana?
Sharon
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Hi ,
I was wondering if the drapers u r researching would have a Frances M Draper marrying a Sheldrick Brooks aprox 1930's as i'm researching the Brooks. essex.
Hi Caroline
There's a record of a Frances M Draper marrying Sheldrick Brooks in March quarter 1931, Rochford registration district. But, sorry to say, I haven't collected any other info on a Frances M.
If you get the marriage cert and find the name of Frances' father, I may be able to help a bit further. :)
Sharon
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Hi i can't find the fathers name yet for Francis Draper but will update as and when. I know these Drapers were living on bohemia estate , This Francis Draper was known as May ~ Married Sheddy Brooks.
Thanks anyway.
Caroline
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Hi Caroline
Thanks. I saw today that there's a birth registered for a Frances M Draper in 1912 in Rochford registration district, mother's surname Smith.
That being the case, Frances could be a daughter of Elias Draper and Caroline Smith who were living in Bohemia Estate in the 1911 census but recorded under the surname Smith rather than Draper on this occasion.
The only other Drapers living there in 1911 were an Ambrose Draper and his wife Annie plus a son Joe and a daughter Livie.
Any of these ring any bells?
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
in searching i have found a John Elias Brooks buried at eastwood church so noting the middle name i'm guessing that he is linked to my Frances who could be the daughter of the Elias Draper and Caroline Smith you mentioned. The Burial number on the list the church gave me is the same (802 ) as frances. i am just awaiting a little more info from the church warden. I was wondering what you think.
Regards
Caroline
Hi Caroline
Thanks. I saw today that there's a birth registered for a Frances M Draper in 1912 in Rochford registration district, mother's surname Smith.
That being the case, Frances could be a daughter of Elias Draper and Caroline Smith who were living in Bohemia Estate in the 1911 census but recorded under the surname Smith rather than Draper on this occasion.
The only other Drapers living there in 1911 were an Ambrose Draper and his wife Annie plus a son Joe and a daughter Livie.
Any of these ring any bells?
Sharon
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hi caroline hope all is well with u .the grave u are talking abt at eastwood church which is frnace mays grave i think she was buried with her son john .as far as i know she died first then john .so think that how they both have same grave number 802.hope u getting some info from church warden
sylvie
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Hi Caroline
I see that John Elias Brooks died in 1987 in Southend registration district, with a birth-year of 1931. The corresponding entry in the birth index shows that his mother's surname was Draper.
Best wishes
Sharon
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Hi again
It looks like there's a gravestone in Eastwood churchyard commemorating Frances and John Elias. Their names are included in the Monumental Inscriptions index of the Essex Society for Family History.
Sharon
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Hi Sylvia,
I'm not sure how how to message you...have only just registered !
Are you a cousin of Georgina ?
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hi georgina.s dad and my dad are 1st cousins
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hi silvia57, seems im related to you 2! lizzie your nan is a relative of mine x
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hi all.
i may have given you this on a different thread, but a selina rose was baptised to shadrack & frances may brooks 11/03/1934 at eastwood church. i searched online and a selena r brooks has mother listed as a draper for a baptism in 1934.
also baptised to them is anthony leonard 02/06/1940 only this time she used may brooks and dropped the frances. again online the search shows mothers maiden name was draper.
the grave you refer to has frances may brooks 25/01/1912 - 03/12/1973 and son john elias brooks 24/05/1987 aged 55yrs
there is another grave there with frank brooks 20/05/1949 17yr cedric brooks 14/10/1954 21yr and his baby son stephen cedric 19/01/1955, all in same grave.
a 3rd grave states clara brooks 21/01/1940 66yr & charlie richard brooks 16/02/1957 84yr a 4th grave states sarah ann brooks 18/09/1986 86yrs & clara brooks nee stone 17/03/1987 48yr
futher burials are selina brooks 19/01/1914 age 15yrs
albert brooks 18/04/1929 14mths old
william brooks 07/09/1936 61yrs
i am unsure if these above 3 entries are for eastwood church as i have not listed it in my notes >:( but they are definatley in essex.
an online search shows a sheldrick brooks marrying a frances m draper in j/f/m 1931 at rochford essex (eastwood was in that duristriction at the time)
and lastly shedrick brooks and frances may draper were witnesses at the wedding of rodney buckley to annie spencer in dec 1930 and both signed their own names :)
hope this might help with a link .........somewhere :D
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Does anyone know where the exact location of the Bohemia Estate was?
From my research, it was here along the Eastwood Old Road (Obviously before houses were built)
(http://s8.postimg.org/qpjmhmi9h/Capture.png)
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Bohemia estate began from the back lane behind the woodcutters public house down to bellhouse lane next to the A127.
It included woodcutters avenue, bohemia chase, woodfarm close and possibly the beginnings of briarwood drive, leighwood ave and eastwood road north.
You have gone across the A127 to bellhouse road, which is incorrect but actually leads down to the belgrave estates, another encampment, as was the anne boleyn estate at rochford :)
hope that all helps
I have maps of them but they are A3 so unable to scan sorry.
i have family birthday today and tomorrow but as soon as i have more time i will reply to your previous PM. apologies 8)
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:)
Excellent info butterflies!
I also have gained some interesting facts the past few days and weather permitting, I will be off to St Laurence tomorrow with my camera to note some grave dates
Chat soon. :)
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:)
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hi sylv57 are you aware you keep adding a smiley face to the thread?? no words are present, just wondering if you are finding it difficult to respond ??
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;D
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xxxx
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:)
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Can someone direct me to the Bohemia Estate Eastwood facebook page,
Seem to have lost it.
Thanks
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/666023106844838/?ref=bookmarks
heres the link, picture icon of a horse head, if that helps also :)
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Thanks : social-butterflies ;)
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Hi, new here. This is my first post. I have buckley, bibby, boswell, scarrott and stone in my family. My mother's maiden name was buckley. I used to live in southend on sea in essex and was born in Rochford. Lived in Sutton court drive, doggetts close and King Henry drive as a kid, also moved around to shoeburyness and stambridge. I don't live in essex anymore though, moved after my father passed away a few years ago.