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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: silvery on Wednesday 06 May 09 18:20 BST (UK)
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239 Sergeant William WASS (MM MID)
Born: Winsley, Derby, Derbyshire
Previously served with the Sherwood Forresters in Boer War, China, India, Malay, Egypt
NOK: Germain WASS (father)
Address: Morend Farm, Chellaston, Derbyshire
1891 RG12/2721/80/1
civil parish, Elavaston; hamlet, Ambaston; Shardlow South Derbyshire
German Wass 41 ag lab b Windley (which is Belper registration)
Harriet Wass 41 b Wirksworth
Herbert Wass 14 b Windley (Shardlow reg)
William Wass 11 b Windley
Arthur Wass 8 b Windley
Margret Wass 6 b Ambaston
Ellen Wass 4 b Ambaston
Lizzie Wass 1 b Ambaston
1901 RG13/3204/183/1
German Wass 51 waggoner on farm
Harriett Wass 51
Arthur Wass 18 lab railway carriage works
Margaret Wass 16
Lizzie Wass 11
Louisa Wass 6
1911, two lots of censuses
Derby
Arthur Wass 28/1883
Lizzie 21/190
Lilly 18/1893
Amy 15/1896
and
Shardlow
Germarn Wass 60/1851
Harriet 60/1851
Herbert 34/1877
William 30/1881
Margriet 26/1885
Louie 16/1895
So marriages etc would be later.
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Also watch this newspaper for any results - William was in there today !! :)
http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/Appeal-relatives-highly-decorated-World-War-hero-come-forward/article-965143-detail/article.html
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Hi Liverpool Annie,
Wouldn't it be great if similar stories could be written up for each of the other lads and be printed in the various local papers! Wish I knew how to go about that, but I am sure someone at rootschat will know and will get that ball rolling too.
Just Moi.
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Hi All,
To inspire us all to try to help, please visit this link http://www.anzacday.org.au/justsoldiers/justsoldiers.html as there is a six page pdf file there just on William Wass.
Lest We Forget
Just Moi
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From the passnger lists....
Wm WASS
Departed London on 26 July 1912 to Sydney at the age of 30 as a labourer. He travelled on the RANGATIRA owned by Shaw Savill & Albion Co. Ltd. and was skippered by R D Lowden.
There are no other Wass names on the list so he must have travlled on his own.
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Hi Spof,
That's fantastic. Can you help figure out how any of the other lads got to Australia? Their names are on this link, at page 1 of that thread. If we cannot find descendants at least we can "humanise" their military records.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379339.0.html
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Hi JM
I've been a bit busy on another war veteran - Gilbert Harry and father Samuel on the Canada board - but am now starting to go through the list. I've started on the ones with their own threads with nothing glaringly obvious but now my lunch break is over and it's backto the grind :(
Glen
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Possible marriages for Lily and Amy Wass:
Amy WASS & ? ALSOPP - Belper, Sept 1912, Vol 7b, P1415
Lily WASS & Harold WAYNE - Derby, Sept 1912, Vol 7b, p1167
Lily WASS & John H NIELD - Chesterfield, Sept 1915, Vol 7b, P1784
It would be great if someone could check the parish records to see if details match.
Crystal
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Bit More
William WASS
Regimental number 239 Place of birth Derbyshire, England School Ambaston Church School, England
Age on arrival in Australia 27 Religion Church of England Occupation Fitter Address Second Street, Pelaw Main, New South Wales Marital status Single Age at embarkation 31 Height 5' 5" Weight 134 lbs Next of kin Father, G. Wass, Anderston, near Derby, England
Previous military service Served in South African War (Sherwood Foresters).; 3 years in Hong Kong; 1 year China; 1.5 years Singapore; 4 years in Army Reserve.
Enlistment date 17 August 1914 Place of enlistment Randwick, New South Wales Rank on enlistment Signaller Corporal Unit name 2nd Battalion, Headquarters AWM Embarkation Roll number 23/19/1
Embarkation details Unit embarked from Sydney, New South Wales, on board TRANSPORT A23 Suffolk on 18 October 1914 Rank from Nominal Roll Sergeant Unit from Nominal Roll 54th Battalion Recommendations (Medals and Awards) Mention in Despatches
Awarded, and promulgated, 'London Gazette', Fourth Supplement No. 29664 (11 July 1916); 'Commonwealth Gazette' No. 176 (30 November 1916).
Other details from Roll of Honour Circular He also served in China and India with the Sherwood Foresters.
Fate Killed in Action 19-20 July 1916 Place of death or wounding France Age at death 35 Place of burial No known grave Commemoration details V.C. Corner Australian Cemetery Memorial, Fromelles, France Panel number, Roll of Honour,Australian War Memorial 160 Medals Military Medal
Source: 'Commonwealth Gazette' No. 62 Date: 19 April 1917
Other details War service: Egypt, Gallipoli, Western Front Embarked Alexandria to join the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force, Gallipoli, 5 April 1915.Promoted Sergeant to date from 8 April 1915.
Wounded in action, 8 August 1915 (gun shot wound, head); admitted to 3rd Field Ambulance, 9 August 1915; transferred to Mudros, 11 August 1915, and thence to St George's Hospital, Malta, 16 August 1915; to St Patrick's Hospital, Malta, 21 August 1915; to England, 18 September 1915, and admitted to King George Hospital, Stamford Street, London SE, 24 September 1915.Proceeded to join Mediterranean Expeditionary Force from Weymouth (date not stated); rejoined Bn, Tel el Kebir, 20 February 1916.Transferred to 54th Bn, 22 February 1916.Embarked Alexandria to join the British Expeditionary Force, 19 June 1916; disembarked Marseilles, France, 29 June 1916.Killed in action, 19-20 July 1916.
Note on file: 'austr. Sold. Wass, W.. 54. ... Nr. 4299. am 19.7.16. in Gegend Fromelles gefallen.'
Red Cross File No 2861108: 'Identity disc received from Germany and despatched to N/K. 11.5.17.'
The above name appeared on German death list dated 4.11.16.'
Medals: Military Medal, 1914-15 Star, British War Medal, Victory Medal
Sources NAA: B2455, WASS William
Red Cross file 2861108
http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8080/showPerson?pid=314645
LEST WE FORGET
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This is what I have on WASS in my file :)
___________________________________
NAME Wass, William
SN 239
RANK Sergeant
UNIT 54 Bn
HONOUR Standard Entitlements MM & MID
BORN Winsley Derby Derbyshire England
OCCUPATION Fitter
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 17.08.1914
AGE 31
STATUS KIA
DATE 19.07.1916
AGE 35
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel 9
AWM 160
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 5 with black hair
NOTES Served Boer war with Sherwood Foresters also same unit in China, India, Malay,
Cairo and Hong Kong.
27 When he came to Australia
Wounded twice in AIF
NOK Father: Germain Wass
Known address: Morend Farm Chellaston Derbyshire England
Mother: Harriett Wass
Brother: Herbert Wass
Brother: Arthur Wass
Sister: Margaret Wass
Sister: Ellen Wass
Sister: Lizzie Wass
Brother: George Wass
Known address: 2nd Street Pelaw Main NSW
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Perhaps this would be the registration of birth of William Wass
Births Dec 1879
Wass William, registered at Belper volume 7b page 530
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Posted something in error
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Have found arrival date in NSW for that voyage of the Rangatira, seems to be 11 September 1912. That passenger list does not yet seem to have been transcribed.
The search continues.
JM
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Bit More,
It is possible that the Wm Wass on the Rangatira was NOT him. He was 27 when he arrived in Australia, He was 35 when he fell at Fromelles. Probably year of arrival 1908, perhaps need to find KEW records for his military service pre 1908. - Hope the snip helps with the earlier service details. I am in NSW, cannot get to KEW, but
Still Searching
JM.
William WASS Age on arrival in Australia 27 Marital status Single
[Previous military service Served in South African War (Sherwood Foresters).; 3 years in Hong Kong; 1 year China; 1.5 years Singapore; 4 years in Army Reserve.
Enlistment date 17 August 1914
Awarded, and promulgated, 'London Gazette', Fourth Supplement No. 29664 (11 July 1916); 'Commonwealth Gazette' No. 176 (30 November 1916).
Fate Killed in Action 19-20 July 1916 Age at death 35
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Some Help please.
We have tried to figure out how to find information about his military service pre his AIF enlistment - but as we are NSW based we don't have local knowledge about how to find him with the
Sherwood Foresters - Boer War
followed by
3 years in Hong Kong
then
1 year in China
and then
1 - 2 years in Singapore
and then
4 in Army Reserve
Please let us know where to search
JM
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Hi JM
I have checked A******y's War Service records but cannot find anything on there - just trying to think where else to check.
Crystal
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Hi JM
I have checked A******y's War Service records but cannot find anything on there - just trying to think where else to check.
Crystal
JM
Although I found nothing for William I did find an entry for a Herbert Wass born Derbys, killed in action 20 July1918. His regimental number was 66426, he was a L/Corporal with the Machine Gun Corps, Infantry Reg. and he previously served with Notts & Derby Regiment, number 61281. He is on the Soissons Memorial.
Is this the brother of William?
Crystal
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The Sherwood Foresters archives are at Chillwell Barracks Nottingham.
http://www.wfrmuseum.org.uk/archives.htm
They were featured on Robert Lindsey's WDYTYA
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Hi Jaywit
Thanks for the link - I have looked at that previously for some of my own rellies but could not remember the actual web address so will check it out.
Crystal
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Hi crystal lady and jaywit,
Many thanks, I think both of you will have much better chances to advance the search for William Wass than me, here in NSW.
JM
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Hi
After days of fruitless searching and banging my head against a brickwall I have finally found something that may actually be useful - not one possible contact but 3 possible contacts :) :)
After trawling the Wass family trees on A******y (and there are many of them!) I spotted one with an Arthur Wass b 1883, Windley, Derbyshire. Further checking revealed that the tree may belong to a sibling of William's father - he has a Germain Wass in his tree but not much info. I have contacted him and explained what we are doing etc and am just waiting for a reply now. It may lead to nothing but German/Germain seemed a big coincidence?
The same applied to GR - person has a Germain Wass in her tree, so message sent and waiting for a reply.
The last one is a message I found on C*****s F*x - message left April 2008 asking for information about relatives of Sgt William Wass etc - this may not be a relative but someone like us trying help. Anyway, I replied and will wait and see if anthing comes back.
3 possibles - I'm hoping that at least one of them will be able to help us.
I 'm also trying to sort out some marriages/births I've found - will post them when hopefully I've made sense of them!
Crystal
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This is grand news.
JM
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Hi
I've had a reply from the A******y contact and it looks like we have a living descendent - just checking a few details to make sure and will them let you know for certain. The guy I contacted has also been contacted by someone else looking for William, I've also contacted him to see what info he has.
Back soon
A very happy and elated Crystal ;D
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Hi again
I've checked my info with the details given me by the A******y contact and it certainly seems to tally. The contact is a descendant of Germain/German's brother so not a close relative but he has spent time today checking for us and has given me the details of a descendant of William's brother Herbert born 1877. The info matches with one of the marriages I had found and I have details of a child from that marriage and then his child and also an address and phone number for this person. My A******y contact has already spoken to him and he is willing to help us etc so I will PM Fedelmar with his details. A******y contact has also asked me to keep him in touch with developements.
The other person looking for William turns out to be from the Great War Forum who have also been helping out - he guessed I was 'one of the Rootschat detectives on the case' ;D
The only bothering me was the brother George mentioned in reply#9 by Fedelmar as I could find no mention of him anywhere - but my A******y contact does have a brother George b 1873, Windley, Derbyshire (sigh of relief).
I also have marriage details and children of another of Herbert's children - will also give those to Fedelmar for verification etc. I'm still hoping that the GR contact will reply as this relates to another brother - Arthur b 1883. These may be known by the relative but you know what families are.
Think thats all for now.
Crystal
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Hi All,
Just wondering if the GR contact mentioned in Crystal's post has made contact with Tim or Sandra?
JM
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Hi there I have also been looking for a descendent of William Wass and I am not sure if you are aware of a couple of interesting snippets. Firstly you may be aware that when he signed his Attestation papers to join the AIF he gave is age in 1914 as 30 +10 months and I believe he is listed as being killed in July 1916 aged 35? I have also found out to date he sailed from Sydney New South Wales on Transport A23 “Suffolk” on the 18th October 1914.
I am sure you are aware of the Fromelles dig which I was able to visit last week with my wife and will certainly hope to be present at the opening of the new cemetery next July and let’s hope we can get a descendent of Williams there as well. I would be grateful to receive further information and will continue to do appeals in the local press and radio stations. Regards and look forward to your reply. By the way I am totally new to this sort of thing but it is certainly fascinating work.
:)
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Oh I forgot to mention his home address at time of embarkation is listed as Second –Street, Pelaw Main, N.S.W. and he was a Signaller Corporal when he embarked and is father is listed as G Wass, Anderston, near Derby , England which interestingly he crossed out on his Attestation papers and replaced with Chelaston, :) which is also near Derby. Regards.
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Hi SBRX,
Welcome to Rootschat, and to a wonderful group of people - not just on the WW1 boards, but everywhere!
I am sure that you will find rootschat one of the best ways to help with all family history online research.
Have you had the opportunity to read the pdf file on William Wass at this link - its an inspiring six page read.
http://www.anzacday.org.au/justsoldiers/justsoldiers.html
Cheers,
Just Moi, from NSW Australia
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Hi and thanks for the welcome I am currently doing an update for BBC Radio Derby and is it true that you may have traced a relative of Williams brother? Regards and I am trying to get used to using this. For example why are my messages only showing two stars when I am elated at the news on William to date? I can put the smiley on but where are the stars? :)
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Hi JM
Good to see you back and hope you are well.
I have not had a reply from the GR contact despite sending a second message so that lead looks like it is going to be a dead end. I sent Sandra the details about Williams next of kin so will have to wait and see what happens with that. I don't think I am going to get much further with this but you never know. What do you think?
Hi SBRX
A warm welcome to rootschat - as Just Moi says we are a very friendly and helpful group of people even if you are not researching your own family.
I knew that the Derby Evening Telegraph had run a story asking for any details of William's relatives but was unaware of Radio Derby's interest, I did email the paper regarding William but received no reply. Are you a relative of William or like us trying to trace his relatives? I believe that I have found William's next of kin with help from others here and on other sites and have passed the details onto the appropriate people.
Regards
Crystal Lady
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Hi and thanks for the welcome I am currently doing an update for BBC Radio Derby and is it true that you may have traced a relative of Williams brother? Regards and I am trying to get used to using this. For example why are my messages only showing two stars when I am elated at the news on William to date? I can put the smiley on but where are the stars? :)
Hi SBRX
I'd also like to add my welcome to Rootschat. :D
The number of stars is tied to the number of posts so no matter how happy I was to find out stuff about my grandfather, I was only allowed 1 star (not that I cared :) )
On RC we are not allowed to publicly mention names of living people so don't expect a lot of public responses but some PMs instead.
William Wass was supposed to have served in the Notts & Derby Regiment (Sherwood Foresters) in the Boer War and afterwards so perhaps looking at that angle might be a good story to link in with Fromelles?
Also, veering off topic in a big way, is another member of the AIF Armourer Sergeant/2nd Lt/ Lt/ Acting Captain Gilbert Harry MM, MC & Bar. Before the GreatWar he was in the Derbyshire Volunteers and he died at 40 from his gassing and wounds and lay for 78 years in an unmarked grave until recentlygrave in Gympie, Australia but there will be a ceremony on 22nd June to mark his grave.
In the meantime, please do keep publicising the Fromelles men.
Glen
PS Some links on Gilbert Harry
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Unmarked+grave+is+soldier's+final+home%3B+Recognition+at+last+for...-a0197055602
http://www.gympietimes.com.au/story/2009/04/16/mystery-hero-remembered/
http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A090218b.htm
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Hi SBRX,
and of course everyone else following these threads :D
The link below is one of the best ways to reach the "team leaders" - who are also RChatters. I will send them both a pm in case they have not yet had a spare minute to learn of your interest too.
The link to the fromelles database has been removed whilst we locate the new website link 2019 http://web.archive.org/web/20100409162945/http://www.fromelles.net
JM
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Hi all, I teach a Great War short course at the Northern College see www.northern.ac.uk and visit the battlefields with my wife quite regularly. We visited the Fromelles excavation last week and I did an interview with BBC radio Derby and spoke to the Derby evening Telegraph who did the story afterwards. Might I add with a few inaccuracies but never mind it got the story out there.
I became interested in finding out more about William Wass simply because of the appeal on From :)elles.net and the fact he originally resided on a farm in Chelaston near Derby not far from where I live in Derbyshire. I have has some assistance from the Australian Archives who have been very helpful but things really started falling into place after visiting rootschat.com. You guys and gals certainly know what you are doing.
I understand a relative as been found and the appropriate authorities have been contacted. Who might that be please as I am sure the local press/radio and perhaps even TV would be interested in doing a follow up? I look forward to hearing from you regards SBRX
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Hi there,
Perhaps if you simply press the option "report to moderator" against this message I am posting. That way they WILL read this message, and your own message that I am responding to.
Edit to remove capitalisation.
JM
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Just wondering if any progress has been made, I have not even had a pm and its ten days since I last posted on this thread. JM
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Hi I can't get a response from the people at Fromelles.net wether or not they have traced a relative of William's but the page says complete where it says researcher so I guess they have. Any idea how I could get to know please?
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Hi, I have also tried to get response and not heard back either.
And, like you I have checked that Fromelles website, and notice that it has been updated. I really don't know anymore than you, but I do know they are all volunteers, so perhaps they are snowed under with info and are just working their way through. Probably concentrating on making contact with the descendants and protecting their privacy.
Perhaps the last item on their "to do" list would be to try to find time to keep us up to date.
JM
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Yes you are probably right in terms of the amount of work they are doing. Intersting reply from the Australian Archives section received today. See below. Any idea why their are no records of William in the naturalisation index?
Regards
SBRX
Dear Mr Brunt,
Thank you for your request for immigration records relating to William Wass.
The National Archives of Australia’s collection consists of Australian commonwealth government records, mainly dating from 1901. I have checked our collection catalogue RecordSearch and naturalisation index but have not identified any records relating to the above person’s immigration to Australia. The only file we hold is his WW1 service file which I believe you already have a copy of.
I’m sorry we could not be of more assistance to help you research this man.
???
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Yep, makes perfect sense to me.
Australian Citizenship did NOT actually start to happen until 1948. Naturalisation was for "foreigners", ie people NOT born in the Empire ! So, for example Aime Verpillot who was among the lads who fell at Fromelles needed to be naturalised before he could enlist. He was Swiss.
My grandfather, born in the Colony of New South Wales in 1880's died in the State of New South Wales in 1940. He too enlisted in the AIF, his papers show he was "British Subject, native born". To me that means he was born in Australia -(it does not mean he was a "native" with Aboriginal heritage) and thus my grandfather was born a British Subject, so to his parents, one born in NSW, the other in London - Just remember that Australia became a Dominion with the Empire after WW1. When these volunteers enlisted, well - it was simply a federation of six British colonies, united under the Empire. (Sun never sets on the Union Jack - that era).
Its just the historical difference/oversight where 21st Century teaching indicates Australia became a NATION in 1901. It was still a Dominion even during WW2, so its probably better to consider that Australia STARTED down the path of Nationhood with the 1901 Federation of the Commonwealth of Australia, where six separate British Colonies were "federated" into one 'national identity'.
Briefly, and I could be mistaken with some dates or the full and proper explanation, but as I recall, After the 1901 Federation of those six colonies, well ummm It took nearly half a century for the concept of Australian "citizenship" to be separated from "British Subject". Aussie soldiers in WW2 were British Subjects, they were not Australian Citizens in any legal sense. That happened after WW2. And it was only a couple of decades ago (1980's) that the separation was further legislated in both the UK and Australian Parliaments - when Britain entered ECU or about then, that Australian born children lost any "British Subject" status, except if their parents were actually born in the British Isles.
The oath of Allegience that the Australian Defence Forces took back in WW1, and still now in 2009, well its to to the Head of State, and the head of state of Australia is Queen Elizabeth II, and that's the way our constitution has been ever since Queen Victoria signed it off. Australia is a constitutional monarchy, our Prime Minister is also one of Her Majesty's Prime Ministers. We are part of the (British) Commonwealth of Nations.
So when William Wass enlisted in the AIF (Australian IMPERIAL Forces) he would not have needed to be naturalised, as he was already a British Subject. Hope that helps, and hope others reading this will understand that there are many details I have overlooked in trying to be brief.
JM
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Many thanks for the explanation JM it will certainly help with future research.
Regards SBRX. p.s Please let me know if you find out anything more about William's relative.
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I see now, having waded through pages of census and BMD indexes for Mellors and Mottashaws ::) that there is a source for William Wass mitochondrial DNA via the children of his sister Lizzie's daughter and that these are on G** R** and have probably already been made aware - so this thread is well and truly covered.
Best,
Tjapaltjarri
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Hi,
I was just resesrching Sgt William Wass. I'm a school student from NSW and attended the Fromelles Ceremony 2 weeks ago.
I am researching Sgt William Wass for a historical investigation, in my modern history class.
I am aware that he was still unidentified.
I know this is an old thread, but I wondered if this was all the information everyone had discovered about him,
and if there has been any developements since then, I'd greatly appreciate a bit of a run down.
Thanks for all that you posted.
It will be a huge help in my assessment task.
<3mle
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What you find on the three pages of this thread is all that is known of Wass at this stage.
Good luck with your project.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
www.fromelles.net
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Welcome to Rootschat
You were at the Fromelles Ceremony.....
On http://www.anzacday.org.au/justsoldiers/justsoldiers.html there's six page pdf file for Sgt Wass, I do hope this will help with your research for your assignment.
Perhaps your younger and fresher eyes will help find a clue that has been previously overlooked and may lead to identification.
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
I suspect that Wass was not amongst the fallen who are now resting in the Pheasant Wood cemetery.
Certainly his name was not amongst those on the list of soldiers with no relative contact given on the CWGC Fromelles project pages. http://www.cwgc.org/fromelles/scripts/download.php?file=334
Is this Australian Priority list going to be updated in the light of the positive identifications that have been made?
The means by which relatives have been found has been a bit 'hit and miss' ( see theAustralian MOD's website http://www.defence.gov.au/army/fromelles/General.asp - note the typo - 'relies of' instead of 'relies on' in the section 'How many soldiers are registered on the database? - and the way that the results of the enquiries are made public has, so far as I am concerned, left something to be desired. It would be helpful to know for instance which soldiers have definitely been excluded from amongst those now lying in the new cemetery; once the existing relatives have been informed it should be possible to indicate this on a list without breaching the confidentiality of relatives.
The same web page points to the list of missing listed on the Memorial walls at VC corner as being one of the starting points for compiling the overall lists but there are at least 6 soldiers now buried at Pheasant Wood who were not on that list and two soldiers who had earlier been given named gravestones elsewhere but have subsequently been identified as resting in the new Fromelles cemetery.
Best wishes for your project,
Howard
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Hi there,
Clearly, from his AIF records, the German authorities recovered his Identification Disc at Fromelles. The link for his fully digitised AIF service records is : http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=8375341
The German authorities document is at page 14 of 21. That document notes that on 2 August 1916 the German authorities recorded that Sgt Wass was among the Fallen of the Australian Soldiers who fell on 19 July 1916. That's around a fortnight after that battle for the German HQ at Berlin to receive and identify that disc, and as we all realise, there would have been many discs at that time.
I have not seen any evidence to contradict where Sgt Wass fell, and I have found much to support the record that Sgt Wass fell at Fromelles.
LEST WE FORGET
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Sorry Howard but the list you are referring to is massively incomplete and obviously well out of date. William WASS most certainly IS on the list of those thought to have been buried at Pheasant Wood and has been on it for quite some time.
He is one of those men who almost certainly is now in the Pheasant Wood Cemetery.
At this stage no soldier has ever been excluded from potentially being on the list and the basic theory utilised still remains that it's far better to be inclusive rather than exclusive. The only soldiers not considered for the list are those with known graves unless a fair case can be shown that there burial is questionable. Indeed, in the past twelve months, we have suggested five soldiers with 'named' graves be included as possibles and the Australian Fromelles Project Group were quite obliging and willing to accept them.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Thanks Tim,
Yes I am aware that that list is not comprehensive. As I said, it was one of the stgarting points.
The other point I was making was that where there is a clear mDNA relative match for a fallen soldier and no match to the mDNA extracted amongst the fallen then it should be possible to rule them out.
If there are some of the fallen from whom no DNA was extracted that was suitable for matching purposes then I accept that the situation becomes more complex and nobody can be ruled in or out but without access to the results of the DNA results it is hard to know exactly where that leaves us in terms of the identification possibilities.
I perhaps have been mistaken in believing that the list of priority persons sought for DNA matching purposes would include all those soldiers possibly amongst the 'grave unknown' group, including those solely commemorated on the Villers-Bretonneux Memorial but involved with the Battle at Fromelles.
Since I had earlier identified an m-DNA relative of Wass on Genes Reunited and no longer saw any request for suitable DNA matches for Wass being sought I assumed that this person had been identified, contacted and had supplied a sample.
If this was an incorrect assumption then I apologise but some clarity as to what needs still to be done regarding the identification of the remaining fallen at Fromelles would be helpful.
I have looked at the VC Corner list and compiled a data base of these linking them to the aif.adfa.edu.au:8080 database. the link for Wass is http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8080/showPerson?pid=314645
This shows that quite a substantial proprtion of the soldiers were born outside of Australia. including Belgium 1, Canada 1, Channel Islands 1, Denmark 2, England 140, India 3, Ireland 13, Malaya 1, NZ 15, Netherlands 1, Poland 1, Russia 1, Scotland 40, South Africa 3, Sweden 2, Switzerland 2, USA 2, Wales 4 - 97 on my list have place of birth unstated.( I have one alias duplicated that I have yet to hunt down ;-))
Still trying to help,
Best,
Howard
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Hi there,
I wonder if the CURRENT discussion on this specific thread would be best served on a separate thread, afterall, this thread along with several other threads were given the topic "Fromelles missing .......(then the AIF soldier's name). I don't see any benefit in this current discussion continuing on this specific thread.
LEST WE FORGET
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Agree totally with starting a specific thread. Perhaps a few of these last posts could be transposed into it at the beginning so the train of thought isn't lost. (is that possible?)
It's a discussion that's well worth having and there are some valid points that Howard has brought up that I've also beenquestioning over the past few weeks.
In answer to your last post Howard,
Yes, there was a very small number of remains from whom no DNA sample was able to be extracted. Therefore it leaves us with the open-ended possibility of them being anyone who went missing during the battle and thus no soldier can be ruled out whether an mtDNA match was successful or not.
Re: Wass. Although you have identified an mtDNA descendant, do you know whether that person registered with the AFPG? The frustrating thing about this is that it is up to the relative to approach them and offer their DNA rather than the other way around.
You are correct, those without known graves do form a 'priority' type list but it's been shown that it's not exclusive as some with graves have now been proven incorrectly named (although I'd like to think that's only small in number). Indeed those listed on the Villers Bret Memorial were taken into consideration from the outset. It was realised early on that they only appeared at VB because of a records technicality that listed their date of death the day 'after' the battle. We suspect the reason for this is because that particular battalion called the roll on the following day and all those found missing were nominally alloted that date. Hence they missed out on being included at VC Corner.
I am currently attempting to obtain a list of soldiers names from the AFPG for whom DNA has been submitted as this doesn't breach any privacy issues. Obviously I couldn't ask for the names of descendants who had submitted it. I'll let you know if/when I obtain it.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Re: a new thread - Yes I am happy with that. I intended to start one elsewhere under the title of the future of identifications of the AIF fallen at Fromelles but was waiting for what I felt was a dignified gap after the Fromelles Memorial ceremony in July.
Re: Wass - no I didn't contact the relatives that I identified directly myself. I simply pointed to where they could be found and left it to the Australian genealogy brigades to follow up since I found that I'd 'painted myself into a corner' as far as communications with other members in this forum was concerned at that time. - There is still time to follow up this potential contact although none of us is getting any younger.
So far as I remember from a posting by Sandra, useful DNA for identification purposes was found for all the soldiers identified as being from the AIF.
It's an interesting starting point from which to address the complexity of modern history and its interpretation. Best of luck with your project <3mle.
Howard
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Howard,
All but 6 sets of remains produced viable DNA.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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I've taken on board all of Tim's recent comments and turned my attention to the 3 other AIF Fallen who have not been identified indivcidually and for whom I believed I had traced and located a person who could assist with the identification process.
When I came to look at William Wasss; horror of horrors the tree which had so clearly spelled out such a line had been amended and no longer pointed to his sister Lizzie Wass but another.
So I've rolled my sleeves up and I believe found another MtDNA lineage from his older sister Eliza Wass b ca 1870 at Wirksworth.
She married William (Willie on the 1891 census) Bickerton and in 1901 census was living in Derby with family and her brother George Wass born Windley who was then working as a fireman/stoker on a railway engine.
The family are together withput George on the 1911 census and amongst her children is a daughter Florrie b ca 1904. The only match for Florrie is Florence Bickerton b Dec qtr 1903 in Derby.
It seems that Florence Bickerton married Frederick Dakin in Derby in 1929. Their only child Patricia Jill Dakin was born 11 June 1935 in Coventry and died in Coventry in November 1999.
Patricia Dakin married Robert Alan Langstone. He died in 2005.
Patricia's daughter and grand daughter complete the tree.
I am waiting to hear if my attempts to contact these women have been successful.
The granddaughter would be William Wass's sister Eliza Wass's, daughter(Florence)'s daughter(Patricia)'s daughter's daughter and therefore an MtDNA match for Sgt. William Wass M.M. d 19 July 1916
I hope that goes some way to making amends for my previous brash statements.
Best,
Howard
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Still looking for female Mt dna for William Wass, looking in UK at present, grateful for anyone who actually knows something of this side
Marg O'Leary
Fromelles Association
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Still looking for female Mt dna for William Wass, looking in UK at present, grateful for anyone who actually knows something of this side
Marg O'Leary
Fromelles Association
I did send details of some people that I had identified as Mt dna relatives for this man to the Australian MOD link for Fromelles but do not know if they followed them up. The person I identified was on Facebook and I sent them a personal message outlining the connection but so far as I know they never read it or replied. They were findable though the electoral roll - a task I left to the Australian MOD.
I also sent what I had to Fedelmar.
Best,
Howard
p.s. If you'd like me to pick up these threads again send me what you have as I lost all my data when my computer crashed and my wife chucked out my scrawlings :(
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thanks and will put a file together for you.
Marg