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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: oldcrone on Wednesday 06 May 09 18:53 BST (UK)
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A difficult one this, but when you've got a grandfather who gave different names (both forenames and surnames), different dates of birth and different places of birth, then you're stuck with a difficult family history to research.
One thing about my grandfather though, is what he looked like. He had, according to his army records when he enlisted in London in 1900 with the Leinsters, black hair and blue eyes. He said that his birthplace was Ottawa, Canada. He definitely had a connection with Canada and retained a Canadian passport in later life (I haven't been able to verify whether he was actually born in Canada). He also told his children that he's been born in Ireland (Tipperary), and then went as an orphan to Canada. He had Dupuytren's contracture, which is more commonly a European (particularly Scandinavian) condition.
To be honest, I've fantastised that he had a North American (Indian) background (black hair and a slightly hooked nose). Having said that, 'hair of black and eyes of blue' sounds very Irish to me.
Here are two photos of my grandfather when he was a young man - any ideas or insights gratefully received!:
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An intriguing problem to be sure. My guess is that the story about him being born in Ireland and then going to Canada is likely to be the right one. Have you looked for possible orphans records in Ireland? What about records of orphans being sent to Canada? Who adopted him in Canada? Were there any siblings or adoptive siblings? What else do you know about him? Have you got his marriage and death certs? These are just a whole bunch of questions which popped into my mind - you have probably thought along these lines anyway. I don't think he looks like he has native american ancestry. Wish I could help! Good luck.
Chirp
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Concentrating on the supposition that he might have been born in Ireland and then been sent to Canada there's several sources you can check.
Index to civil registrations should list his birth if born after 1864:
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails;t=searchable;c=1408347
Also try LDS site (www.familysearch.org) as they have some, not all Irish births (mainly 1864-c1882).
Then search for record of him leaving the U.K. for Canada on www.findmypast.com- index is free to search and give name, sometimes age, year and port of departure and post of arrival.
Would he have been in Canada at the time of 1911 census?- search it (free) on www.automatedgenealogy.com.
Canadian attestation papers online at National Archives, Canada website.
Without a name and dates I can't think of any other ideas at present.
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Thank you, chirp and aghadowey, for the responses!
I've tried all sorts of lines about my grandfather on Rootschat in the past, so I don't want to bother people too much with the same queries again. It's just that I've got hold of these early photos of my grandfather recently, so I thought I'd try the 'desperation' approach.
I've checked familysearch, findmypast, the 1891 Canadian census; I've had someone a few years ago check the Ottawa births for the 2 different birthdates/3 different surnames my grandfather gave; he gave different names for his 'deceased' father on his marriage certificates (as well as different ages for himself); on his army records in 1900, he gives his next of kin as two brothers (David and John) 'address unknown'. I've searched findmypast extensively for him leaving Ireland with/without brothers, or coming to England prior to joining the army. I've tried searching the UK census lists, in case the whole Canada/Ireland thing was a myth. The problem is, is that I get to a point beyond the names, etc that I DO know, when there's no way of verifying anything. My grandfather gave his name as James Aloysius Smith, John Arthur Shaw, John Aloysius Shaw and also, apparently, went by the surname of O'Connell. He gave different places of birth (Ottawa and Tipperary), and gave different birthdates (1881 and 1883, and he also lied wildly to my grandmother about his age when they married!).
I will have a look a bit more at the familysearch site. Sorry to post the same old stuff about my grandfather, but sometimes a fresh view of it helps.
Many thanks
Clara x
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Are you sure they didnt call him Walter Mitty as well - laugh
Good luck in your search
regards
Sandymc
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Hi Old Crone....try googling this it may be of help..
Home Children Canada...or
British Home Children
Good Luck!
Carol
Added...Don't know why I can't copy and paste links anymore :-\
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Well, normally I hate generalisations. However, If I'd seen only the photos and hadn't read the Ireland/Canada story, I would have said Serbia-Bulgaria-Armenia-Turkey or thereabouts. Merely an observation, though.
Mike
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I'm with Mike - on the photographs alone it's those high cheek bones with the narrow face that made me think of that area.
I'm also thinking that whatever his name was his initials could be JAS as he's used them a lot in various ways. Not that it will help in any search I know of!
Christine
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Haha, Walter Mitty! My grandfather was actually referred to as "a lovable rogue" in the past!
The Eastern-European 'look' is interesting; he had quite a swarthy complexion, but then he had blue eyes? Hmm.
Also, I have searched on 'Home Children' before, but I will revisit this aspect again.
Thanks everyone, for these further suggestions - believe me, I've got to a point when I'm open to any avenue of thought with this elusive character...
Clara x
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This is a fascinating thread - I have to say that the top photo is very reminiscent of Charlie Chaplin - not just because of the little mustache and the hat. His clothes look quite smart at first glance, but closer inspection reveals them to be quite poor quality, and probably altered to fit. Chaplin came from a very poor background too.
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I agree with the Eastern European theory. That was my first thought when I saw the photo. That's not to say that he wasn't an orphan from Ireland though. His father could have been a sailor who got friendly with an Irish lady ::) ::)
Lizzie
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He had Dupuytren's contracture, which is more commonly a European (particularly Scandinavian) condition.
Just to say that a connection of my family had this, and he was Irish, but I have no idea if it is particularly prevalent in Ireland
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Thanks for these further suggestions/thoughts - I appreciate them.
Yes, Nick29, you are so right about the poor quality of my grandfather's clothing: I ?reckon this photo was taken just after WW1 (which he survived as a soldier in the trenches). I'm fairly certain that his wife and children were living in a workhouse while he was fighting in WW1, and continued to do so after he returned. Eventually, he earned enough money for them all to be reunited in a rented house in Leatherhead.
For clarification: the first official bit of info I have on my grandfather is in 1900; it's London, and he's enlisting with the 1st Battalion, Leinster Regiment. He says on his enlistment papers that his name is James Aloysius Smith, that his next of kin are his older brothers David and John, address unknown. On later official documents (his marriage certificates), he gives his father's name as Henry Arthur Smith, farmer, deceased; and Henry Arthur Shaw, farmer, deceased.
He had a Canadian passport in the '50s; but having checked out the Canadian Passport site, it would appear that they don't keep records of 'old' passport applications, and also that there were no stringent checks for people applying for passports prior to 1950 (ie my grandfather could have applied for a passport without providing verification - but this still begs the question: if he wasn't actually a Canadian citizen, then why apply for a Canadian passport? ie what's in it for him to be a Canadian, if he actually wasn't one?)
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I'm not entirely sure on this, but I think that prior to the end of WW1, he simply wouldn't have needed a passport at all. Perhaps the Canadian one became necessary for travel later. And isn't it true that possession of a valid passport establishes a legal nationality?
Mike
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Oldcrone, it sounds like your grandfather had to "live on his wits". It wasn't uncommon for poorer people to "moonlight" (i.e. rent a place, then leave before the landlord collected the rent), and if you owed money to people in those days, it wasn't a bad idea to have a few different names to go by. I'd be more inclined to believe what he told his children, rather than what he told the army, so being born in Ireland and sent to Canada is more likely. There were lots of potato crop failures in Ireland between 1850 and 1880, so he may have been sent to Canada as the result of those.
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Passports were not compulsory before WW1, probably the end of the war and the tightening of regulations made him apply for a passport, and he happened to be in Canada at the time.
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Forgot to add; I understand that people with black hair and blue eyes from Cornwall and Western Ireland are believed by some to be the descendents of survivors from the Spanish Armada whose ships were wrecked off those coasts.
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Just to add another possiblility to this quest - Aloysius was quite often used as a Confirmation name by Catholic boys in the late 19th - early 20th century and is usually associated with being educated by the Jesuits - Saint Aloysius being one of their leading lights. This was most common in the North West of England and parts of Ireland.
jds1949
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So, you would seem to be looking for a Jesuit educated man, probably from the western part of Ireland. For my own reference do any Jesuit school records survive?
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Hi,
I am very interested in the Dupyutons contracture part of your query as I have this myself and so did my later father. My grandfather was Swedish so I assume this is where we have inherited this complaint.
My thought is that many Irish people are descended from Vikings so of course have the Scandinavian background which includes the blue eyes and often red hair.
Andcarred
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Thanks for all these further comments and suggestions! (Sorry I've been a bit late replying, but I've been away from the computer for a few days.)
Nick29: yes, I do think he had to 'live on his wits'! To clarify: the first record I have of him is 1900 in London joining a Irish/Canadian regiment - he called himself James Aloysius Smith, birthdate 1881, Ottawa. In 1905, he deserted the army and joined the Royal Navy (still calling himself James Aloysius Smith, birthdate 1883, Ottawa). A year later, while still in the navy, he married a Lambeth woman (his first wife) - he called himself John Arthur Shaw on his marriage certificate. Soon after his marriage, he deserted the navy and set up home in Lambeth, where he worked as a gas stoker. In 1910, there was a King's Pardon regarding army deserters and, for whatever reason, he rejoined his Leinster regiment. He had to assume his original 'army' name of James Aloysius Smith, so at this point, he's using two names!
After WW1, he returned to England and continued to live here for the rest of his life as John Arthur Shaw (he died in 1975, aged about 95). I have a Canadian passport issued to him during the '50s - I have gathered via the Canadian Archives site that records of old passport applications no longer exist, and also that anyone applying for a Canadian passport around this time didn't have to provide any verification of nationality. Apparently, my grandfather was always very cagey about his past, though he told his children that he was an orphan, was originally from Ireland (Tipperary is his birthplace on his obituary), and that he was brought up by the White Fathers, or some such religious order, in an orphanage in Canada. I've tried to track down orphanage records in Ottawa, but drawn a blank.
As you can imagine, it's really difficult to unpick all this: were Smith or Shaw his real names? was he born in Canada or in Ireland (someone has looked up Ottawa births for the various names in 1881 and 1883 and not found him)? It's almost as though he was constantly running away from his past, and throwing up smokescreens along the way!
Thanks, Redroger and jds1949 for your comments... as to the name 'Aloysius', yes, I have wondered about the link to Catholicism, though he put on his army records that he was Protestant; his second wife (my grandmother) was actually a Catholic, but I don't think he ever went to church with her!
Andcarred: my uncle (the only one surviving of my grandfather's 5 children) also has Dupuytren's, and has had to have some of his fingers amputated. I met him for the first time a few years ago (he lives in N Zealand) and the first thing he did was examine my hands!
Many thanks again, everyone - all food for thought for a desperate woman!
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My husband is Irish and has dark hair and blue eyes. However when he was a child he had blond hair which got darker as he aged. Do you have any photos of your grandfather as a child to see if this is the same in your family?
My father`s family emigrated to Canada in 1946 and he later applied for Canadian citizenship gaining dual English and Canadian citizenship. Perhaps if your grandfather had been in Canada for long enough he was able to become naturalized as Canadian. I don`t know the rules regarding Canada but here in Ireland you can become naturalized after 10 years. My fathers grandmother died in Canada after they had been there 11 years and had become naturalized on her death records it was stated she was a naturalized Canadian of British origin. Perhaps then he was able to apply for a Canadian passport and from then on told people he was Canadian.
Regards
Sarah
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Thanks, Sarah - I think our posts just about crossed at the same time!
The two photos I've posted at the beginning are the earliest photos I have of him - one in his army gear in India, and the other (I think) post-WW1. Two of my uncles took after my grandfather in looks/colouring, but the few early photos of both show them as fairly dark (rather than blond).
As to the Canadian citizenship issue, my grandfather never lived in Canada after he joined the British army in 1900 (though he gave his birthplace as Ottawa).
ETA: I actually have no documentary evidence that he ever lived in Canada, other than what he said (although I do think it's likely that he was there as a child). Incidentally, he sent two of his sons as 'Home Children' to Canada when they were 17; my uncle Jack in 1925, just after the death of my grandfather's first wife, and my uncle Len in 1930. Apparently, they "never forgave my grandfather" for doing this.
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ps meant to say as well: anyone still with me!!! ??? :o
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Sarah, I see that you are researching Butt, where are they located? I know that some went to Newfoundland from Dorset, and wondered if they are some of these if you know their originating point in Dorset?
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Yes, still with you and following with fascination.
The White Fathers may be worth looking into - they are African Missionaries but can be found in Ireland - don't know about Canada or UK. This link will take you to a newsletter with a Dublin postal address and an email address. It may be worth asking them a question or two.
http://www.africamission-mafr.org/irelandmay06.htm
Christine
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There was an earlier suggestion, that your grandfather's father was a sailor/soldier that visited Irish shores, and became friendly with an Irish woman. From reading all the posts, my take is that this scenario is indeed possible, and that O'Connell could well have been his mother's name. There were two garrisons in Tipperary, Fethard & Clonmel. My GGG-Grandfather was Scottish, joined the RA, and came to Ireland where he met my GGG-Grandmother. She was Catholic, he was Protestant. They married in 1846, in Clonmel.
So, if this was the case with your great-grandparents, if the father didn't marry the mother, it could be that your grand-father was born illigimate, and either abandoned as an orphan (and raised in a Jesuit Orphanage?), or given up for adoption. Being given up for adoption in those days wasn't really a happy ending either, and could have resulted in him being left at a boys home. Ships of Orphans were known to have gone to Canada.
Perhaps your grand-father didn't know his father's surname? Perhaps he only knew his father's first names, Smith seems like a name one would choose to be annonymous? Interesting how he kept the first names all straight though.
Just a few ideas that popped into my head while reading your thread. Just for info, the first pic of your grandfather, I thought he looked very Irish, the second I wasn't so sure!
Hope I haven't just repeated a load of stuff! I do understand your desperation though! Good luck!
Having just asked my partner (who is Irish) O'Connell seems to be a name from the Tipperary area as well.
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oldcrone, re the marriage to a Lambeth woman (1906), is there a father's name and occupation for the groom ?
Sorry, I notice you already answered this :-[
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Oldcrone, What period are you researching for the Hole family in Somerset?
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oldcrone isn't, but I am !
I am researching the Hole family from my grandfather, back as far as I can. My grandfather was Bert John Hole, born in Parbrook, East Pennard, in 1876. I've traced his lineage back to John Hole, also born in East Pennard in 1670.
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Sorry about that Oldcrone and Nick, the connection with my tree is that a Ron Hole married a Gillian Luffman sometime in the early 20th century. They had one known son, David.
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Thanks for the further comments!
c-side: thanks for the link - I've just checked some old info supplied by my late aunt about her father (my grandfather), and she's said that he was brought up as an Irish orphan by "either the White Fathers or the Christian Brothers" in Canada (now this was obviously what my grandfather told her, so it's not necessarily true!).
Daisy Loo: thank you for your insights. And yes, I've wondered if my grandfather was illegitimate, and perhaps didn't know his real name (which might explain why he gave different names for his father on his two marriage certificates - ie when he married his second wife, he couldn't quite remember what name he'd given the first time round!). Smith certainly has always seemed to be a bit too obviously anonymous, and also he gave the date of his birth as 1 January (1881 or 1883), which again doesn't quite ring true.
After reading everyone's thoughts and suggestions, I feel overall happier to accept that perhaps my grandfather was an Irish orphan (perhaps illegitimate and maybe from Tipperary), who was sent over to Canada as a young boy and brought up by a religious order. He ran away/left Canada and ended up in London in 1900, joining the army (he was probably penniless and it meant that it gave him an income of sorts and accommodation). He was reluctant/embarrassed to talk about his background, perhaps because it held bad memories of impoverishment and, perhaps, abandonment.
Any ideas about trying to find the birth of a James Aloysius Smith/John Arthur Shaw/? O'Connell in Tipperary?!
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The White Fathers are essentially a Catholic Missionary order who work mostly in Africa and South America and, as far as I know. are not directly involved in the education of school children [at least not in England or Ireland]. The Christian Brothers on the other hand are/were heavily involved in the education of boys - in fact running school was pretty much what they did.
jds1949
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Have you tried this website?
http://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com/index.php?&set=yes
Searching the index is free but there is a pay per view if you want details. According to the site Tipperary is fully online
Christine
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And this one for civil registrations - totally free
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails;t=searchable;c=1408347
C
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Hi Clara,
Have been following this fascinating puzzle with great interest and thought it was about time to toss in a few thoughts, but they probably won't do much to solve the mystery. I missed the earlier posts and have been trying to catch up on the story.
perhaps my grandfather was an Irish orphan (perhaps illegitimate and maybe from Tipperary), who was sent over to Canada as a young boy and brought up by a religious order.
Sorry to disagree, but I don't think this is really very likely.
Many British orphans were sent to Canada, but not to be brought up in orphanages. They were mostly sent to work on farms (particularly the boys). Also the majority were sent by children's homes in England. There were some Irish children sent by RC homes but I don't think there were a great many. I have never heard of any child being sent from a childrens' home and ending up in a similiar establishment in Canada. The whole idea was to get them out of orphanages, out of the city, to start a new life in the wide open spaces of Canada. The reality was sometimes very different from the dream, but that is another story.
If your grandfather was brought up by a religous order, then he was most probably born in Canada or if he was born in Ireland, there is another possibility for how he ended up in Canada and alone: he could have emigrated with parents and they could have died on the voyage or soon after arriving in Canada. I am not sure how bad it was in 1880s, but during the peak period of Irish immigration, thousands of Irish people died at sea or in quarantine after their arrival. There were a great many orphaned children, sometimes too young to know their own names. Families were separated when the sick were sent to the "fever sheds" on an island in the St. Lawrence. Perhaps he really did have two brothers, but had no idea what became of them. Many of these orphaned immigrant children were adopted by other Irish families who had lost their own children. Perhaps your grandfather was adopted and his new family settled in the Ottawa area.
As far as I know, there was no formal adoption, so probably no records.
I have an idea that would explain the references to both the Christian Brothers and the White Fathers. As stated by others above, the Christian Brothers did run schools. The White Fathers did not run schools (for children) or orphanages in Canada.
The Christian Brothers opened a school in Ottawa in 1888.
It was in Lower Town which was largely populated by Irish and French Canadians. Perhaps your gf attended that school. If he was a bright boy, perhaps the good Brothers saw a future for him in the Church. The White Fathers had training schools in Canada (there was one in Montreal) for those entering their order ( I think a sort of seminary with special training for work in African missions).
Since your gf was about 18 or 19 when he ran away, he was old enough to have been in the training school at the time.
Life was probably very hard in those training schools and maybe he could not take it. If he was in Montreal, it would have been easy enough to pick up a job on a ship.
Finally, I must admit that I still tend to think that there is a good possibility that your grandfather was Canadian born and had some Native North American genes, but pictures can be deceptive and I might be wrong.
I hope you find some answers eventually.
Carmela
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c-side: thank you for those links - I haven't come across them before, so that's really helpful.
Carmela: thank you very much for your perspective, and all the extra information. I really need to think about all this! I do remember that my aunts said that my grandfather had "run away" from ?an orphanage in Canada because he was treated very badly. Also, I should mention that he may not have been 19 (ie born in 1881) when he joined the army; I suspect he was younger than that (perhaps 17), and also he may not have arrived in England straight from Canada. Interesting to hear your impressions of the photos!
One other thing I will say is: despite all this subterfuge on my gf's behalf, most of the old family rumours about him (eg that he went by different names; that he was an army deserter) have actually proved correct, since I've been researching his past. So I do tend to view these titbits of info (such as the Christian Brothers, and being orphaned) as fairly likely.
Off to ponder! Many thanks, everyone, again. ;)
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If you are in contact with a male descendent of your grandfather, on the male line, i.e. grandfather, son, then it should be possible to determine his ethnicity by means of a DNA test (Y chromosome), as the chromosome carried by his son and grandson is most likely identical and certainly only differing slightly to his. If there are no direct male descendents, then I don't believe this is possible, but I have insufficient knowledge to be certain.
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Redroger - the only descendents would be my uncle (last surviving child of my grandfather, now aged 83, living in New Zealand) or his two sons (one living in Australia, one in Switzerland).
How difficult/expensive is the DNA testing?
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Not difficult, just rub a cotton bud on the inside of your cheek to get a sample and have it processed. Expense depends on the number of markers sampled, there are several postings about DNA on various threads which you may find helpful.
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First of all, I should say that I have no expertise in genetics, but I do find the subject interesting and have done some reading.
Before you consider DNA tests , I think that you should be aware that analysis of Y-DNA would show only the origin of your gf's male Shaw ancestors; it would not tell you anything about the origin of his female ancestors. This test would confirm Native ancestry only if your gf was the direct male descendant of a Native man.
As I understand it, it is the mitochondrial (mt-DNA) in females that is used to trace the geographical origin of female ancestors. For this test you would need a female descendant of your gf's sister (if he had one and you knew the descendants). Men do inherit mt- DNA from their mothers, but they do not pass it on to their offspring. An analysis of the mt-DNA of a living male Shaw would reveal only the origin of his mother, her mother and so on, not that of his father's female ancestors.. If you do have a DNA sample from a male relative analysed and it comes back negative, you will never know for sure, without the female test.
If Mr.Shaw did have some Native North American ancestry, I would think that it most likely came from his mother, but if the Shaws had been in Canada for a generation or two, then perhaps someone on that side. I imagined the scenario as: Irish immigrant or son of same, married a Canadian woman who had some Native North American ancestry.
As Redroger said, cost varies. Here in Canada, it runs anywhere from about $100 - $600 or more for really complex analysis.
Cheers,
Carmela
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Thank you, Carmela and Redroger, for all this info and food for thought.
Mulling over all of this....
ClaraX
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If you go for it Clara, get several price quotes as it can come out very expensive.