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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent Lookup Requests => Kent => England => Kent Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: shaneooo on Saturday 16 May 09 16:42 BST (UK)
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Hi roots chatters, im looking to find any information on frederick david sudds died before 1919, had a daughter lillian cm sudds b. 1901 thanet married richard h pennell 1919 faversham.
Frederick may of had a sister mary sudds married george ansell lived in ramsgate, both fish hawkers, any help would be appreciated,
many thanks. shane.
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When was he born?
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possibly c1880 ish, all i know is father of lillian cm sudds, died before 1919 as indicated as deceased on her marriage certificate, thanks, shane.
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Sadly it look as though the birth certificate for Lilian will have to be ordered. I can find no Frederick DAVID Sudds in Thanet just Frederick JOHN.
Also, the 1911 Census should help
I think this family is related due to the names of the family, Lilian and Christina, middle names of your Lilian C M Sudds 1901.
Births Dec 1901
SUDDS Lilian Christiana M Thanet 2a 974
1891 Census
Sudds John S 40 Head Tailor Hull, Yorkshire Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
Sudds Esther 38 Wife Canterbury, Kent Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
Sudds Mary J 19 Daughter Ramsgate, Kent Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
Sudds Walter 14 Son Errand Boy Port Ramsgate, Kent Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
Sudds Jessie 10 Daughter Scholar Ramsgate, Kent Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
Sudds Hester 8 Daughter Scholar Ramsgate, Kent Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
Sudds William 6 Son Scholar Ramsgate, Kent Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
Sudds Christina 2 Daughter Ramsgate, Kent Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
Sudds Lilly 1 Daughter Ramsgate, Kent Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
Sudds Frederick 10 Grand Son Minster, Kent Canonbury Road 1 Florence Terrace, Ramsgate
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HOUSEHOLD SUDDS LILIAN F 1902 9 Thanet Kent
So, Lilian is on the 1911 Census but still no Frederick Sudds in Thanet for this time, so only a guess, but I think Lilian was illegitimate.
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There is a Frederick David SUDDS born March 1868, reg. at Lewisham, 1d 392.
But agree birth cert. needed ::)
trish
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thanks for your help i will order birth certificate and post the results, thanks, shane. :D
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You could pay to view this image and see who Lilian is with?
HOUSEHOLD SUDDS LILIAN F 1902 9 Thanet Kent
So, Lilian is on the 1911 Census but still no Frederick Sudds in Thanet for this time, so only a guess, but I think Lilian was illegitimate.
Laurina
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ive already viewed this image, to find she is listed as niece to robert ansell, his brother is george and shown to be married to mary, ive just found their marriage in faversham in 1915, george ansell and mary j sudds. so it would seem mary is lillians mother. no sign of a marriage to fred sudds though.
thanks. shane. ???
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Hi Shane,
I think the birth cert of Lilian is a must ;)
What is Mary. J's age in 1911 Census ?
Trish
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Hi Trish, mary is 36 on 1911.
thanks. shane.
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It could be the same mary j as in the 1891 census only 3 years out.
looks like the birth cert is a must now. Ive recenly made contact with some sudds family through this site so i'll ask them in the mean time. The only thing bugging me is why she listed f d sudds as father (deceaced) on marriage cert if this was not the case?.
thanks.shane.
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Hi Shane,
The birth cert hopefully will reveal all :)
It was not unusaul for illegitimate people to put a fake Fathers name on their marrige cert.
Cheers,
Trish
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Hi Shane,
My father (b 1913) lived with his ' gran' Mary Sudds who married George Ansell in Faversham. He talked of George's brother ' Bob' Ansell also living there.
I still know some of the family of Lilian Sudds and Richard (Dick) Pennell. My dad talked of Lilian as a cousin.
I think the Frederick Sudds shown as ' grand son' on the 1891 census - residing at Florence Terrace Ramsgate - may be my grandfather but I would say he was aged 1 at this time and not 10 as shown.....we are still searching this out.
Lilian's birth cert should certainly help.
Cheers
Fred
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Welcome Fred :)
Hopefully this all can be sorted out !
Cheers,
Trish
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Hi Fred
Welcome to Rootschat
I would say that the Frederick (grandson) in the 1891 census is definitely a baby ie. it says 1 ..... month(s) thus 1 or 4 or 11 months would be my guess ;)
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Fred, nice to hear from you, ive still not ordered lillians birth certificate yet, but i believe that the frederick david sudds mentioned on her marriage certificate as father is not correct, hopefully i will order it over the weekend if i get time. I will post the results when they come,
many thanks, good health,
shane.
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Hi everyone, just got lillians birth today, born 5 oct 1901 minster union workhouse thanet, mother Jessie Florence Sudds ( mary j sister) dom servent of12 portland court ramsgate, father not mentioned, informent jessie of union workhouse minster.
So as thought illegitemate.
i have found a jessie marriage in 1902 to either george debling or james marshall. Her parents are john joseph sudds born hull 1849 and hester kirby born 1850 canterbury, i have both back to 1871 on censuses and john in 1851 but nothing on hester (esther) before she married,
Again many thanks for your help.
Kushti Bokt, shane.
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Congrats Shane :)
Looks like Hester/Esther will only be found unmarried in 1861 Census.
She appears to be Reg. as Esther KIRBY, March 1852, Blean, 2a 509
And married as Hester KIRBY, December 1870, Thanet, 2a 1320
Trish
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Hi Shane
http://extranet3.kent.gov.uk/sp/rois/marriagesearch.cfm is good for double checking post 1837 marriages in this area of Kent. If you enter Jessie and the two prospective husbands separately you will find that only one of them will have the exact same reference as Jessie - George ;)
It looks as though he may have died and Jessie remarried in 1907
Casalguidi :)
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Think this is her, reg district of area is Blean.
1861 Census
RG9/522/117/26
18 Ruttington Lane
St Gregorys, Canterbury, Kent
William KIRBY, 46, head, mar, weaver, Whistable, Kent
Ester, 38, wife, mar, char woman, Chislet, Kent
Elizabeth, 15, daug, dressmaker
Albert, 13,
Stephen, 11
ESTER, 9
Sarah, 7
Edward, 5
John, 3
Thomas, 8mths All children born Canterbury, Kent
1851 Census William and Ester are married, still at same address, but there are other children that must have left home by 1861 Census.
It is possible going by their age that Ester is a second wife for William. This will not affect your line though.
1851 Census
HO107/1625/57/17
18 New Ruttington Lane
St Gregory, Canterbury, Kent
William KIRBY, 38, head, mar,
Ester, 28, wife, hawker of fish, Chislet
William, 14, son, unm, hawker of fish, Walmer, Kent
Richard, 10, son, Canterbury
Mary Ann, 7, daug, Canterbury
+ Elizabeth 4, Albert 6, Stephen 1.
So in 1841 need to look in Walmer maybe and possibly with another wife ;)
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Marriage;
William KIRBY
December 1845
Canterbury 5 146
On same page, Esther CULLEN
Just noticed there is a John Cullen, fisherman, as next door neighbour in 1851.
Having trouble finding them in 1841 ::)
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Only Esther Cullen I can find;
1841 Census
HO107/469/4/Preston by Wingham
Thomas, 40, ag lab
Elles, 40
ESTHER, 20
William, 15, ag lab
Sarah, 4
All born in County
EDIT, apparently this image is incorrectly indexed as Casalguidi :)has kindly pointed out to me. The actual image says Parish of Ramsgate.
EDIT;
Just realised I made a mistake re Hester/Esther birth/mar reg and have amended.
Trish
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If it helps, I can confirm this marriage:
2nd Nov 1845 St Mary Northgate, Canterbury.
Esther CULLEN to William KIRBY
Betty
Marriage;
William KIRBY
December 1845
Canterbury 5 146
On same page, Esther CULLEN
Just noticed there is a John Cullen, fisherman, as next door neighbour in 1851.
Having trouble finding them in 1841 ::)
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Thank you Betty :)
Do you have access to an earlier possible marriage for William, probably just before William jnr abt 1837 is born?
Trish
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Hi Trish
Afraid not, the only other marriage in Canterbury for a William KIRBY was in 1752.
Betty
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Thank you all for your time,
Also on the preston nr wingham thats actually ramgate 1841 is jessies grandad joseph and gt grand parents,
john sudds 60 fisherman
elizabeth 55
joseph 18
emma 15
residing at newcastle hill parish of ramsgate.
Thanks again, shane.
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Hi, i'm unable to find who jessie married in 1907, the bmd only shows 1 possible, but entry numbers are not the same, married as jessie florence debling, any ideas!
thanks in advance, shane.
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:)
Hi Shane,
I think she might have married Thomas Smith ....
2Q 1907 Thanet 2a 1989 (the page no has been transcribed incorrectly and appears as 1980 but when checked it is 1989)
She could be Jessie Florence Smith who appears in the 1911 census - I think she might have a child with her called Thomas William Henry Smith b.1909
You'll have to look at the extract yourself and see what you think
Laurina
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Thank you Laurina :) i'll have a look at that.
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Any luck?
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Hi Shane Lillian was my grandmother. Can you please get in touch when you see this message. Cheers deb
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Welcome to Rootschat deb.
The original poster shaneooo (Shane) hasnt been on here since early 2012.
Hopefully if he is still around or have the same email address to be notified of your reply he will reply to you soon.
Trish :)