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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hertfordshire Lookup Requests => Hertfordshire => England => Herts Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: CFP39 on Wednesday 27 May 09 23:16 BST (UK)
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Hi Guys
I wonder if anyone can help with this?
I have a baptism for my 2 x great grandmother, Nancy Gurney, at Rickmansworth on 10/11/1823, daughter of James & Hannah Gurney.
Can't find a marriage for them except possible James Gurney to Mary Ann Painter 5/8/1821, at St Stephens, St Albans?
Don't think it's too far away but could Mary Ann be aka Hannah?
Nancy was married 1844 so should hopefully be on 1841 CR with her family? But don't have names of any siblings to help. Any one have any ideas? Have spent my quota on certificates. :(
Thanks for your time. :)
Lee
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Hi,
not sure if it helps with Hannah/Mary Ann dilemma but there is this:
1841 HO107; Piece 438; Book: 21; Folio: 13; Page: 21
Batchworth Rickmansworth
James Gurney 40 Publican
Hannah 40
Betsey 20 Rag Sorter
Nancey 15 Rag Sorter
Ellen 13
Sophia 10
Eliza 6
Samuel 5
Mary 3
all born in county
Do you have her marriage certificate?
Does James' occupation fit?
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1851 has Hannah's place of birth as Rickmansworth
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1841 has a James and Mary Gurney, St Stephens, St Albans.
Free BMD has a birth reg for Mary Gurney which may be the youngest child. When you have saved up you could get that certificate for Hannah's maiden name.
best wishes
heywood
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Hi
Thanks for the replies Heywood. :)
So I can rule out the James/Mary Ann marriage!
The 1841 CR entry looks good. ;D
The marriage of Nancy to Joseph Payne is among the latest certificates I've received and shows James as a Miller. Don't think that rules him out as career changes aren't new. However the marriage took place at Hillingdon, Middlesex so maybe James/Hannah's took place in that area.
Will hope that they were helpful and that they registered Mary's birth. Must remember to put in parents names when I order! Had a similar problem with another of my families and didn't do so. They hadn't registered either of their youngest children. :(
There is a baptism at Rickmansworth 19/3/1797 for James son of Samuel and Sarah Gurney, which looks a possible. :)
Thanks again
Lee
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Hi Heywood
I'm waiting for Mary Gurney's b.c. :)
In the meanwhile I looked on FindMyPast for a James Gurney marriage and they have one in 1816 on the West Middlesex Marriage Index. I've used up my credits at present and wonder if there is any way to check the bride is the one I want before buying some more? :-\
Anyone with any helpful tips?
Thanks
Lee
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Hello again,
I wonder why Nancy and Joseph Payne married in Middlesex ???
1851 HO107; Piece: 1714; Folio: 496; Page: 27
has Hannah and some of the children living in Rickmansworth. She is a widow and a rag sorter.
She is still there in 1861 and her occupation is 'formerly Miller's wife' :D
She is with daughter Sophia and a grandaughter Ellen Stalkam who I think is Stadham. (I can't find a Stadham/Gurney marriage :-\)
In 1851, Ellen Stadham is a lodger with Elizabeth Stadham,30 yrs, married and other children. Elizabeth is a rag sorter. I wonder if Elizabeth Stadham is Betsy Gurney :-\
heywood ;)
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Hi
Looks like another problem surname. :(
How about this marriage Joseph STATHAM at Lambeth June 1/4 1843 4 304
with an Elizabeth Gurney on same page!? ::)
There is also an Ellen Stadham birth Dec. 1/4 1843 in Watford area but why would she be down as a lodger if she was living with her mother? ???
Mary Gurney's b c arrived this morning - her mother Hannah Coleman :)
Now I know I've seen a James Gurney/ELIZABETH Coleman marriage somewhere. Will have to make another search, didn't write it down and it may have just been IGI.
By the way do you know if there was a paper mill in the Watford/ Rickmansworth area? I read somewhere that rags were sometimes added to improve the quality of paper! Or what other reason for sorting rags?
Thanks for your reply
Regards
Lee
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I think I meant that Elizabeth and the children were all lodgers so it wouldn't show that Ellen was Elizabeth's daughter - sorry for confusion.
loosk like you have the right marriage for Elizabeth. (hopefully).
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this is interesting re the rag sorters:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=f04ee5de69d5abef04c077884c8e5c4c&topic=355232.0
just looked it up because my mother in law used to say she was a 'shoddy bag wrestler' which we always thought was a jokey name for her rag sorting job when she came from Ireland in the late 1920s - now I have just found out (and impressed my husband) about shoddy :D
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There are several submissions on IGI for that James Gurney/Elizabeth Coleman marriage and a possible birth for Hannah Coleman.
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Hi
With regard to your question about paper mills in the area, yes indeed there was, John Dickinson Paper Manufacturer owned Batchworth Mill, I would think most probably where your Gurney's worked as they lived in Batchworth Hamlet on the census. :)
He also had a Mill at Croxley Green, a couple of miles from Rickmansworth & more in the Hemel Hempstead area. Paper making was a large industry in the West Herts area during the 19th & 20th centuries.
Hope this helps.
Maddie
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That's useul to know Maddie and sounds very likely.
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Hi Maddie
Thanks for info on paper mills. :)
Do you know if someone who worked the machinery would be a 'miller'? First thought is of someone milling grain but given the paper industry in the area maybe not? Seems likely the family would all work together. :)
Hi heywood
Love the 'shoddy bag wrestler' description! ;)
There was once a TV programme called 'What's My Line?' Would have been a great entry. ;D Am I showing my age?
Well back to looking for a marriage for James Gurney/Hannah Coleman. Not on HALS unless Gurney was spelt another way. :(
Thanks for your help. ;D
Regards
Lee
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Hi Lee
The only mention of Millers that I can find in my book of John Dickinson is at Home Park in 1881 but they were concerned with paper staining & Home Park was one of the Hemel Hempstead Mills. Batchworth Mill was mainly rag sorting.
I would have thought a Miller was more likely to do with with grain. Although there where a few flour mills in the area & a Windmill on Scotts Hill, the road that led from Rickmansworth to Croxley Green.
Salters Brewery was in the High Street in Rickmansworth, wonder if that has any connection. ???
Just in case you didn't know James Gurney was buried at St Marys in Rickmansworth on the 10th November 1848 aged 53.
I also remember the prog "What's my line" so I guess I'm showing my age as well. ;D
Maddie
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Hi Maddie
Must say Salters Brewery could be a link. On Mary's b.c (13/3/1838) he is down as Retailer of Beer. :)
1841 CR - Publican
1844 - Miller.
Didn't have his burial - Thanks
If his age is correct his baptism could be 23/3/1794 son of James & Elizabeth, rather than 19/3/1797 son of Samuel and Sarah!
Do you have an interest in local history of Rickmansworth? If so, any idea why on a 1896 death certificate place of death is Town Hall, Rickmansworth? Did it have multiple uses? It struck me as odd. :)
Just going off.
Thanks for your help. ;D
Regards Lee
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Hi again
It does seem odd that James should be in the Beer trade then suddenly become a Miller. :-\
Glad I could help with his burial & age, looks more likely that his parents were James & Elizabeth then. Hope it helps a bit any way. :)
I'm Rickmansworth (Croxley ) born & bred although don't live there now so I have gathered quite a bit of local info & most of my family were connected to the Paper Mills through work. ;D
I haven't a clue why someones death should be shown as at the Town Hall, unless they happened to die at a function. :o They did hold balls, dances, concerts & such, along with the monthly meetings of the "Penny Reading Society". ??? How intriguing. :D
Maddie
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Hi
Didn't notice at first that the person (a sister) who was informant on Town Hall death certificate lived at the Town Hall. Will have to check CRs to see if she's a caretaker! Want to find her to make sure that I've got the right James. ::) If it is, he died 2 months after his wife. Youngest child 5 years. :'(
Cause of death Carcinoma of Larynx - 2 years & Exhaustion. (He was only 49)
Thanks for your help.
Lee
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Oh that's sad, poor soul, what did he do for a living. :-\
Hope you have the correct James. ???
Maddie
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Hi Maddie
Fairly sure that I have the correct James now. :) There wasn't a sister Ellen on the 1861 CR, but have now found a bp. for one in 1862! Their mother was then about 40. James' wife was only 44 when she died of 'heart decease'.
James was down variously as Lab, Watercress Lab & Watercress Grower. On the death cert. it was Watercress Lab, so the Grower entry may have been an exaggeration. ::)
Believe that there was a well known Payne family of watercress growers in Rickmansworth but James' father (Jacob) & grandfather (Jacob) were green grocers. Suppose there could be a connection back a generation or two. ;)
One of the problems with large families is that if parent or parents die young the children need someone to look after them. In this case the eldest daughter was married and lived a few doors away and I think she may have taken them on. (Sisters 12 & 5 and brother 9.) Know what happened to them in later life but not in their childhood years, yet.
I'm quite surprised at how much I've found out in the last few months. :D
Great to be able to find so many helpful people on this site. Hope I'll be able to return the favours sometime.
Lee
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Hi Lee
Would Ellen be the one on the IGI bp 23 Nov 1862, parents Joseph & Nancy (Paine.) ???
Did you happen to find her in the 1901 at the Town Hall. I'm assuming you meant Ricky not Watford. :)
Was your James married to Lucy or Ann, or maybe neither. ;) I see there were 2 James born Ricky, one in 48 & one in 49. How confusing. :-\
Have you been able to find James's children with the elder married daughter in the 1901.
Maddie
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Hi Maddie
Yes that's the one - lived in Church St, Rickmansworth.
No, didn't find her in 1901 - yes, Rickmansworth Town Hall!
Yes, having two Jameses that close together has been a pain. ::)
My great grandfather, James Payne (Pain) married Ann Elizabeth Paddick at Chorleywood on 22/10/1870. That's the 1st time I came across a different spelling. This certificate proves that his father was Joseph. :D
Strange things about the family weddings - although they were from Rickmansworth or Watford only one, on direct line, found there.
Have Joseph & Nancy at Hillingdon, Middlesex -
Peter Paddick to Dinah Green at Harefield -
Joseph Payne to Maria Nichols at St Albans -
David Paddick to Elizabeth Hemming at Winchcomb, Gloucestershire -
James Green to Lucy Nicholls at St Mary's Watford.
Have yet to find James Gurney to Hannah Coleman (but not on HALS list).
As for the children, I think that only the youngest, Jessie, would still have been with her sister by 1901. Think Edwin Francis is the one who shows as being 'Page Boy Domestic', and Florence Ann also probably in service.
When Ann died it was her son in law, Edward White, who registered her death. His address is given as no.4 Northampton Terrace, while the Payne family was still at no.1 :)
Only one that I don't know what happened to was the eldest, William, my father didn't mention him at all. :(
But then he told me his father was born in Berkshire! ::)
Suppose that he had an excuse as he wasn't home much after joining the army as a boy, so missed out on family talk. ::)
I had to ask questions to find out what he did know. Trouble was I didn't know all the questions I might need answers for. ???
Well it's turned me into a detective, getting quite good at making 'educated guesses'. :)
Thanks for your interest
Lee
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Hi Lee
I think I may have just found your Ellen in 1901, although her name is Ellen Beasley married to Frank Beasley, he is a Hall Keeper caretaker in Ricky High Street. :o Must be the Town Hall surely. Is that spooky or what. ;)
Frank Beasley married Ellen Payne March 1889 Eton 3a 601. (Free BMD)
Maddie
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Hi Maddie
Yes, that is the Ellen Beasley (didn't realise I hadn't given her married name). ???
Hadn't got her in 1901, but in 1881 she was Under Housemaid DS at 27 Devonshire Terrace, London Middlesex, with a Johnstone family.
Can't think why I didn't find her marriage! Thanks for that.
I suppose James could have been visiting his sister to get a rest, no way of knowing. :(
Do you know if there are any photos available of Church Street in the 19th C?
Wonder if there's one showing J Payne - Green Grocers.
Our local town has several little books of postcard photos which are very popular! :D
Regards
Lee
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Hi Lee
I have the book "Rickmansworth A Pictorial History" that has quite a lot of pics taken in Church Street. (ISBN 1-86077-027-4) but if you have a look at Chris Reynolds site
http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/home.htm
On the Ricky pages he lists a few postcard books that can be hopefully found for sale on the net. :)
I can't actually see J Payne - Green Grocers but I'm sure it would be possible to work out where it was from the census. :D
Regards
Maddie
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Hi Lee
I have the Centenary Edition of the Watford Observer !863 - 1963 & thought you might be interested in this little snippet I have just found on Batchworth Paper Mill.
In the early days of the Observer (1863) the wheels turned 24 hours a day, non stop. Men working in sets (3 in each set) worked 12 hours duration, lads were also employed but worked days only, sometimes not finishing until 8 p.m. These boys fed the "sifters" which cleaned the "half stuff".
Female labour was only employed from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m, nearly all workers being on piece-work. Pay day was Saturday & "sorters" (rag) earned six shillings a week, "dusters" earned nine shillings a week. Breakfast was half an hour, dinner an hour at midday & half an hour for tea.
Hope this gives you an idea of your Gurney's life style. :)
Regards
Maddie
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Hi Maddie
Having a ancestor involved does bring history much more interesting. :)
Will have to work out how much 6/- would buy back then. The kids find it amazing that when we got married I had 9 pound per week for all housekeeping! :P
Had another look for the family in 1901 -
Edward (sic) F Payne - 14 - b. Newbury was Page Boy - St Peters Rural
sister & brother in law -
Edward White 29 b. Newbury - Printer Folding Machine Minder - St Peters Rural!
Ada J White 29 b.Rickmansworth - St Peters Rural
so he was nearby :)
Jessie Payne 11 b. Newbury was still in Newbury
but Uncle & Aunt still there -
Edwin Paddick 46 - Market Gardener
Sarah Paddick 50 - Laundress. :)
Will have a look for postcard books at the weekend. :)
Have a good one
Lee
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Hi folks,
I know that this thread is years and years old, but I'm hitting dead ends from here Down Under, and hoping to lean on the successful research already done.
I'm chasing branches of my husband's family and get back to James and Hannah/Anna Gurney in Rickmansworth. (His Great Great Grandfather is Samuel, only son of James and Hannah).
Did you end up finding marriage records for James and Hannah, or concluding which James he was and who he was born to?
It'd be fabulous if I could shed a little further light on the ancestors.
As an aside, I'm back on the trail after lots of on and off as I've been told by family members that they're related to Elizabeth Fry via the Gurneys, and looking for evidence for or against. ;)
Thanks heaps!!
Freya