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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: welshspencer on Monday 01 June 09 14:51 BST (UK)
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Hi all
I am trying to find more infomation for my friend whom is form the Lovell Family her great Grand father was henry lovell c 1862 and his wife was Ellen, her grandparents were Joshua and Lily
they had the followign children
Carnation 1886 ? Bridgend
Joshua 1888 Cardiff
Susannah 1891 Cardiff
Lementina 1893 Cardiff
William 1896 Cardiff
Henry 1897 Cardiff
I have them in the 1901 census but trying to find whom henry's father was and how they fit in tot the Slack Lovell family
Kind Regards
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Here they are in 1891 where Carnation is transcribed as Vincas. The writing is pretty bad anyway.
1891 RG12; Piece: 4399; Folio 130; Page 45
30 Daisy Street Canton
Harry Lovell 35 yrs Cutler b Wales Cardiff
Helen 25 yrs b England Cheltenham
Vincas 5 yrs b Wales Bridgend
John (Joshua ?) 3 yrs b Cardiff
Susan 5 months b Cardiff
Windsor Gibbs boarder 40 yrs b Cadoxton Glamorgan
Ann Gibbs boarder 35 yrs b Cefn Glamorgan
I think Harry's age could be 25 but and the Gibbs birthplaces are not too good either- have taken them from transcription.
I also think that perhaps Henry's birthplace in 1901 was different ??? will have to recheck.
heywood
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There may be something on here to help your friend
http://romanygenes1.com/#/welsh-folki/4531499185
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thanks heywood
and in the 1901 he is 39. so not sure if he was now born 1862 or 1866
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These are members of the LOVELL family I have found- Roser
LOVELL Enoch 30 Travelling Brazier Birmingham, Emma Lovell 25 Worcs, Keomi Lovell 3 Wednesfield Heath, Cashmere Lovell 5wks Wednesfield Heath (Gipsy Tents, Pit mounds on east side of Buggins Lane, Wednesfield, Staffordshire 1861Census)
LOVELL (Ref PAGE 53; 77 “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL 14 Hawker Other Manchester Lancs , Mary Gray 50 Hawker Other Boston, Lincs (Tryanty (Vearous Place Travg Caravan And Tent Leftwich, Cheshire RG11 3523 50 21
LOVELL Ann Lear 1857 17 May Eli and Caroline (Higgler) of Waldron Waldron Sussex (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Celly 69 wid Peterborough, Speedwelly Lovell 35 Clothes peg mkr Gloucestershire
LOVELL Charles 1825 4 Dec William & Sarah (Horse Keeper) , St John, Croydon, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Christopher (Ref PAGE 116; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL Cornelious (Ref PAGE 116; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL Dinah 1836 11 Dec aged 93 A gipsy Culham, - (Burial Berkshire, Ref Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Family (Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)
LOVELL George 1827 24 Oct William & Sarah (Horse Dealer) , St John, Croydon, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL George 1836 18 Mar Francis & Elizabeth (Tinman) , St John, Croydon, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Henry 1835 5 Jul John & Union Aged 5, (Brazier) Morden, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Jack (Ref PAGE111; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL James 1849 1 Apr William & Sarah (Horse Dealer) , St John, Croydon, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL James 20 Pig Keeping Kensington Mx, Athaliah Lovell 21 Farnham Surrey (Waste Land on west side of Latimer Road called the Gipsies Encampment, in Tents, Hammersmith London Mx 1861 Census)
LOVELL James 35 Lic Hawker Thornbury Glos ,Lousea Lovell 28 Thornbury Glos , Cornelius Smith 14 Female/Hawkers Asst N/K (Wainlode Hill Road Norton Glos RG11 2530 89 21)
LOVELL Joseph 1843 28 Aug John & Naomi (Brazier) Mersthampshire, (Gypsies Passing Through), Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Limpady 1825 18 Sep John & Unity (Stranger) Banstead, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Louis (Ref PAGE 91; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL Mary Ann 1866 13 Jun William & Mary Ann In Tent (Chair Mender) Ashstead, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Mehannah 1801 13 Sep Hezekiah & Hannah (She nee Draper) (Travelling Man) Sandhurst, Kent (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Mignonette 1897 8 Jan Joseph and Hannah (Labourer) St Michael, Barnes, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Nixi (Ref PAGE 110; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL Quinasia 1842 17 Apr George & Isabella Of Shutford, (Gypsey) Hook Norton Oxfordshire
LOVELL Rose (Ref PAGE111; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL Sampson 1903 28 Oct Joseph and Hannah (Labourer) St Michael, Barnes, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Samuel 1877 4 May William (deceased) & Mary Ann Chair caner St Trinity, Barnes, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Sandi (Ref PAGE 87; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL Savaina (Ref PAGE 77; 83; 99; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL Struddveras 26 Travelling Brazier Aldbourne Worc, Cinderella Lovell 20 Bath Somerset,
LOVELL William (Ref PAGE 116; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
LOVELL William 1834 15 Aug Francis & Elizabeth (Tinman) , St John, Croydon, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Caroline 20 S Barnes Henry LEE Horse dealer AUSTINS John 1872 16 Sep St Mary, Barnes, SRY
LOVELL/LOVELS Ambi(Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)
LOVELL/LOVELS Johnny(Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)
LOVELL/LOVELS Matilda(Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)
LOVELL/LOVELS Rose(Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)
LOVELL/LOVELS Savaina(Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)
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Hi
Better link it to this
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,384765.new.html#new
otherwise we will be duplicating everything
ricky
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Thank you RomanyRoser
still having trouble finding Henrys Parents. but am sure most of these will eventualy link in..
Thanks Ricky for linking it in......
Russell
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Re 'romanyroser's' list - a few notes (I have put this info on romany genes):
John Lovell married Union Lee, gypsies, married Finchley 1819 - from Pallot's marriage index.
Children:
LOVELL Henry 1835 5 Jul John & Union Aged 5, (Brazier) Morden, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Joseph 1843 28 Aug John & Naomi (UNION)(Brazier) Merstham, (Gypsies Passing Through), Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Limpady (also known as Caroline) 1825 18 Sep John & Unity (UNION) (Stranger) Banstead, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
LOVELL Mignonette 1897 8 Jan Joseph and Hannah (Bennett) (Labourer) St Michael, Barnes, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through) (- John & Union had a daughter Mignonette as well but this Mignonette is the daughter of Joseph above born 1843 named after her Aunt and Grandaughter to John and Union).
LOVELL Sampson 1903 28 Oct Joseph and Hannah (Labourer) St Michael, Barnes, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through) (Grandson of John & Union)
LOVELL Caroline (CARLINA) 20 S Barnes Henry LEE Horse dealer AUSTINS John 1872 16 Sep St Mary, Barnes, SRY (Carlina was the daughter of the older Mignonette Lovell and Grandaughter of John & Union).
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I am hoping to find out more about the ancestry of John Lovell & Union Lee (gypsies)
John Lovell b. abt 1797 ‘Northmin, Herefordshire.’ (?North Mymms, Herts). D.7/2/1879 Barnes, Surrey. Married 10 Aug 1819 St. Mary's Finchley to Union Lee b. abt 1797 Enfield, Here/tfordshire (Middx?) & D. 29/1/1880 Barnes. These gypsies settled Barnes in 1870s.
John & Union’s children were mostly baptized Kent & Surrey: Woodmansterne, Godstone, Mertstham, Banstead & Morden.
Druscilla (Duritia) 1817 – 1867 (m. Edmund North, son of Emanuel & Cinementa Hearn)
Letitia 1823 (Married John Powell)
Limpedy (Limpetty Caroline Catherine) 1825 – 1915 (m. Henry Whitby)
Henry 1831 (m. Catherine)
Mignonette 1833 –1916 (not married, father of her child Carlina, Henry Lee)
Britannia 1834 – 1915 (m. Humphrey (Humphries) Lee, son of Belcher & Lydia Lee)
Duriah 1838 – 1912 (m. Mary Ann Simpson)
James 1845 – (not married)
Joseph 1845 – 1927 (m. Hannah Bennett (not gypsy))
Robert 1848 (m. Georgina Noakes (not gypsy)
No parents listed on the marriage entry for John & Union .
Possible clues: Britannia married Humphrey Lee and as gypsies. Is it possible Belcher Lee and Union Lee were siblings or cousins?
I found references to a John Chilcott & 4 daughters, who married; Union to Charles Lee; Caroline to Tom Lee; Florence to Wester Boswell; and Shuri to Taiso Young. I can’t find out when this was. As this Union married a Lee could they be the parents of our Union?
For John Lovell the only link is that there is a James Lovell 20 and wife Athelia in Hammersmith 1861. Athelia witnessed the wedding of Duriah Lovell to Mary Ann Simpson 23 Feb 1862 (and a marriage of Noel Lee to Maria Lee on the same day) so there might be a connection. This James could be John’s nephew.
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John Chilcott and his four daughters are attached to my Smith family tree. His daughter Union Chilcott was born about 1814 and – I assume – became the partner of Charles Lee in the mid-1830s or so. So, sorry to say, they can't be the parents of your Union Lee.
However, the use of the Union name – which is unusual in Gypsy families – could well indicate a connection.
Sharon
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thanks, useful to know Union Chilcott's dates. There are a few Unions around in the Lees, Lovells, Chilcotts etc. I imagine there is a connection somewhere.
alison
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Hi, my mother’s family were called Lovell & her father was a traveller. They lived in Roath Cardiif, I was told my grandad used to sharpen knives and fix umbrellas.
My grandfather married a woman ( my nan) names Lilian. They had 13 children. His name ( never met him) was something like ‘Dirad’ but I’m thinking this might have been a nickname. I tried looking up the marriage certificate and I think his name was Joshua.
One son was called Joshua who was killed in the army.
My mum would be 85 now if she was alive so I’m guessing my grandparents were born the 1900’s as my mum was born in 1930’s
Sorry if none of this makes sense.
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Hi Chris
Welcome to Rootschat.
There appears to be a family tree for your Joshua Lovell on Ancestry.co.uk where his wife is given as Lilian/Lily Maud Beavis, married 23 January 1911 in Cardiff. Does that match what you know about him already?
If it does, this Joshua appears to be the son of a Henry Lovell, according to the tree's owner. As he/she has an exact date for the marriage, perhaps they have purchased the marriage certificate and it gives Henry as Joshua's father.
This Henry Lovell's family tree features on page 9 of a book published by the Romany and Traveller Family History Society called 'The Family Tree of Daniel and Violetta Lovell' by Eric Trudgill. You can find out more about the book at this page of the Society's website: https://rtfhs.org.uk/publications/gypsy-families/
There are instances of the first name 'Durant' being used in the Lovell family. Perhaps that - or something similar - is the name you've heard for Joshua.
Sharon
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Hi Chris
Welcome to Rootschat.
There appears to be a family tree for your Joshua Lovell on Ancestry.co.uk where his wife is given as Lilian/Lily Maud Beavis, married 23 January 1911 in Cardiff. Does that match what you know about him already?
If it does, this Joshua appears to be the son of a Henry Lovell, according to the tree's owner. As he/she has an exact date for the marriage, perhaps they have purchased the marriage certificate and it gives Henry as Joshua's father.
This Henry Lovell's family tree features on page 9 of a book published by the Romany and Traveller Family History Society called 'The Family Tree of Daniel and Violetta Lovell' by Eric Trudgill. You can find out more about the book at this page of the Society's website: https://rtfhs.org.uk/publications/gypsy-families/
There are instances of the first name 'Durant' being used in the Lovell family. Perhaps that - or something similar - is the name you've heard for Joshua.
Sharon
Hi Sharon & thanks for reply.
Yes Lilian Beavis was my grandmother, I knew her until I was 12 as she died then. Apparently from what I was told, my nan married my grandad who was a traveller & her family disowned her for it.
I never knew my grandad but my mum spoke of him being a gentle, kind man. They were very poor but happy.
I will look at the links you provided now. Thanks again, I had no idea where to start.
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Hi,
Does anyone have any further info on Henry Whitby married to Limpetty Caroline Lovell, please?
I can't find anything further on him.
Below is the info I have...
Birth Nov 29 1829
Putney, Surrey, England
Residence Hammersmith, Middlesex, England
Marriage to: Limpetty Caroline Lovell (Whitby)
Aug 5 1850
St. Paul, Hammersmith, Middlesex, England
Residence Putney, Surrey, England
1851
Death Feb 28 1868
Camberwell, Surrey, England
Burial Feb 28 1868
St Mary, Putney, England
Wife
Limpetty Caroline Whitby (born Lovell) - John Lovell her father/mother Union Lee
1824 - 1915
Children...
Mignonette (Minnie) Simpson (born Whitby) - partner Henry Simpson
1851 - 1940
Elizabeth Ann Whitby
1857 - 1940
Edward Whitby
1862 - 1862
William Whitby
1853 - 1936
Henry Whitby
1859 - 1863
Susan Whitby
1864 - 1913
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I'm not sure if correct but I've managed to trace back this far on Union Lee's (Lovell) side
Thomas Lee 1555 - 1644
Edward G Lee 1575 - 1634
Richard Bland Lee 1603 - 1652
Hugh Eliza Lee 1625 - 1709
Zacharia Lee 1678 - 1720
Elisha (Rightdoer) Lee 1710 - 1766
Elisha (Excellent) Lee 1740 - 1766
Manfield Lee 1760 - 1834
Duke Lee 1785 - 1840
Union Lee (Married Lovell) 1787 - 29th Jan 1880 who married John Lovell 10th July 1797 - 7th Jan' 1879
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Hi,
Does anyone have any further info on Henry Whitby married to Limpetty Caroline Lovell, please?
I can't find anything further on him.
Below is the info I have...
Birth Nov 29 1829
Putney, Surrey, England
Residence Hammersmith, Middlesex, England
Marriage to: Limpetty Caroline Lovell (Whitby)
Aug 5 1850
St. Paul, Hammersmith, Middlesex, England
Residence Putney, Surrey, England
1851
Death Feb 28 1868
Camberwell, Surrey, England
Burial Feb 28 1868
St Mary, Putney, England
Wife
Limpetty Caroline Whitby (born Lovell) - John Lovell her father/mother Union Lee
1824 - 1915
Children...
Mignonette (Minnie) Simpson (born Whitby) - partner Henry Simpson
1851 - 1940
Elizabeth Ann Whitby
1857 - 1940
Edward Whitby
1862 - 1862
William Whitby
1853 - 1936
Henry Whitby
1859 - 1863
Susan Whitby
1864 - 1913
The nan in the photo is not Henry Whitby it’s his son William
Who is my 2x great grandfather
The actual photo of the 6 adults and young kid are
William Whitby top left
His son in law George Turner ( my great grandfather) I think George Whitby
Front row is Nellie Whitby
Then my Great gran Limoetty Turner nee Whitby and on the end is Great feast gean Elenor Whitby
Henry Whitby died about 35 years before the photo was taken
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Hi all 1st time posting I am looking for any info on Sapy Lovell I have her convict records in Australia she married Augustus Lee in 1820 then Richard Miles 1833 I have her as also marrying Louis/Lewis Boswell as well Augustus is my ancestor and I am trying to prove if in fact the Sophia (Sapy) that married Augustus Lee and not another Sophia
Thanks Kym