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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: acookey on Tuesday 02 June 09 07:36 BST (UK)
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Hello all
We are trying to trace the whereabouts of this grave. It is that of William Thomas Smith d. 4 April, 1876, aged 75. Erected by one of his daughters whose nickname was Tassie.
Of his five daughters, the eldest two went from Tasmania to Victoria, and it is the second of these who erected the monument, the next two went to New Zealand, and married and died there. The youngest daughter married and stayed in Tasmania.
We have not been able to find his death or the location of the grave, and wondered whether he might have joined his daughters in NZ.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Annette
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Hi Annette,
Where was William born? and lived? Did he immigrate also?
There is no death for a William Smith of the right age in NZ 1876.( Nearest is age 61)
Trish
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Hi
What we know is on that tombstone. Posted to NZ in the offchance he may have gone to visit? live? with one of his daughters.
Desperately trying to find where he died, so we can get more information, hopefully, from a DC
Annette
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Hi Annette
What a fabulous monument.
To my eyes, the background building (particularly the roofline and verandah) and what might be a variety of gum tree (at right), shriek "Australia" !
Do you have an idea of when the daughter Tassie, went to live in VIC ?
Lu
[ in NZ ]
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Hi Annette,
I think Lu is right now I have looked at photo again.
There is 1 death 1876 for a William Thomas SMITH on this site;
It costs 99c to view and abt 17 dollars to download cert.
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/CA2574F700805DE7/HomePage?ReadForm&1=Home~&2=~&3=~
Go to historical research on left side of page and follow links to search page :)
Cheers,
Trish
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A William Thomas Smith aged 75 died in NZ Onehunga catholic Cem
Source: NZSG Cemetery fiche
Location Onehunga Catholic Cemetery B03.09
St Joseph
125 Church St
Onehunga
Auckland City
There is a M/I
But given the one in aus, could be red herring, but keep it in mind just in case
Bye
Althea
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sometimes graves and monuments will have the monumental masons name in either the very bottom left or right hand corner, this could possibly narrow down where the grave is if it could be established who the mason was.
Leanne
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Hi,
Th William Thomas Smith who died in Victoria in 1876 was an infant 3 months old.
Source is the Pioneer Index.
There are no deaths of a William Thomas Smith anywhere near the correct age in the Victorian Pioneer Index. So save your $'s as I think it is a red herring and the death in NZ looks more promising.
regards
Robyn
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A William Thomas Smith aged 75 died in NZ Onehunga catholic Cem
Source: NZSG Cemetery fiche
Location Onehunga Catholic Cemetery B03.09
St Joseph
125 Church St
Onehunga
Auckland City
There is a M/I
But given the one in aus, could be red herring, but keep it in mind just in case
Mmm ... what year did this one die ??
Can't find him on the index for 1875 - 1876 ??
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Hi Annette
Have you checked for a death of William Thomas, in Tasmania ??
Even though the daughter who had the monument erected, went to live in VIC, it doesn't necessarily follow, that her father also lived there. (And wasn't there one other daughter who remained in Tasmania? Do you know where she is buried ?)
Lu
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Hi there
Just a quick reply. This site may help with Tasmania Burials. A very Good site. http://www.bgot.org/
Regards
lil
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Lu wrote
Mmm ... what year did this one die ??
Can't find him on the index for 1875 - 1876 ??
Exact ref from NZSG burial locator is:
Source NZSG Cemetery Fiche
Surname SMITH
Given Names William Thomas
Year of Death 1876
Record Number 56
Record Type M/I
Age 75
Location Onehunga Catholic Cemetery B03.09
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Hi
Thanks to everyone for your helpful suggestions and information. We have been able to find no record of William Thomas Smith's death in Tasmania or Victoria (or NSW for that matter).
The Onehunga burial is looking like it is worth further investigation. Can anyone suggest how to go about finding the memorial inscription.
I have blown up the photograph and examined it minutely. There is another grave to the left with a similar fence. There is a inscription below the name of Tassie Davies which is obscured by the fence. Visible is N-- & Mason.
The youngest daughter Matilda Ann Smith married John Walter Crump in Tasmania and is buried at Cornelia Bay Cemetery.
With lots of thanks
Annette
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Annette,
I would think that with the burial information, name and date it might be worth contacting the NZ records for BMD and asking if they have any information that co-incides with what is on the monument and the recorded burial.
Occasionally mistakes occur in transcribing and copying the vast amount from hand written material onto fiche and online data bases, so a check with the responsible body may be your next step.
regards
RObyn
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Thanks Robyn,
I just checked NZ BMD on line and he does not show up. This was not uncommon in Australia either. Even though registration was supposed to be compulsory all sorts of events missed out.
If I could be sure the inscripton was the same, then we know we have got him, and can chase up some records hopefully.
Regards
Annette
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If I could be sure the inscripton was the same, then we know we have got him, and can chase up some records hopefully.
Hi again Annette
I'll have a look at the Onehunga (NZ) cemetery fiche for you, when I'm at the library tomorrow.
Lu
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see if anyone can access the cemetery records, otherwise I can request the hard copy but would take a few weeks ( I already have exceeded bym library limit
Bye
Althea
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Hi
Thanks Lu and Althea. I am really grateful for your help. I will be biting my nails.
Cheers
Annette
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see if anyone can access the cemetery records ....
Yes, an offer to look up the cemetery record, has already been made. :)
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sorry Lu
my post was made before you posted you would look it up, didn't get the little red warning notice
Bye
Althea
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Hi Althea
That's okay :) :) :)
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Thread on Aussie board -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,380626.0.html
Cheers
Cando
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Firstly, three cheers for Althea who located the cemetery record. :) :) :)
Hi Annette
Yes, mystery solved !
The monument to "William Thomas SMITH" is indeed at the Onehunga Roman Catholic Churchyard of the Church of Our Lady of the Assumption, corner of Church and Victoria Streets, Onehunga, Auckland, New Zealand.
Row 12 - Plot 56 "To the memory of William Thomas SMITH who died 4 April 1876, aged 75 years. [Verse] Erected by his loving daughter Tassie M. Davies".
There was a note on the cemetery microfiche record which stated : "Auckland Central Library holds copies of the early registers for this Parish in respect of baptisms, confirmations, marriages and burials. Burials listed are from 1849 to 1903".
[So it may be worthwhile getting in touch with the library to see if there is any additional information in the burial register ? ]
Lu
Edit: 9 October - Amendment to original statement regarding "Thomas William SMITH being buried at this cemetery". As his death registration details have not yet been located by NZ BMD, it cannot at this stage be assumed that he is actually buried in this plot. It may be that the plot referred to, only contains the monument. ??
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Hi again Annette
Gosh, I do hope that our NZ BDM can find the death record for you . :)
Thought I'd just make a suggestion though. [I haven't personally ordered any records since our BDM went online in mid-January and the self-search facility became available. But it used to be the policy, that if BDM performed a search for you, then there was a charge of some $15 or so. Not sure if that still applies ?]
Anyway, to avoid any search fee, suggest you use the "contact us" button on the BDM website and tell them that you have the burial details ... and then ask ("cheekily") why it is, the death registration for William Thomas, doesn't appear in their online listings. (It might just work and save you some $$$). :D
http://bdmhistoricalrecords.identityservices.govt.nz/home/
From 1876 there is quite good info to be had from NZ death records. (See the Resources section on this board re: "BDM Information". And if you are purchasing, be sure to order a "printout", which generally gives more detail.)
Best of luck. :)
Lu
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Well done Lu
I was trying to find it on google maps but couldn't tell, I see a church further alng the street, there is a large open space by corner of Victoria and Church streets
I wonder if the alternative is that is is "just" a memorial monument
Re the death not listed, BMD under the new system did a search for free for me last month because they found an error in database, so fingers crossed they wouldn't charge
Bye
Althea
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Wow, thank you both Althea and Lu. This is another brick to tumble on a brick wall.
Will follow up your suggestions re BDM and Library.
I will let you know of any results.
Very happy :) ;D
Annette
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Hi all
My fellow researcher did an exact date search for 4/4/1876 and came up with Thomas Dillon Smith 1876/180, and I also found deaths for William Thomas Smith in 1871 and 1874.
Have contacted NZ BMD following is the latest reply:
"I would say that it is unlikely that there would be 2 deaths on the same day for 2 people where the names are so similar. It could be that the person informing us of the death did not know the correct name of the deceased.
We have had occasions such as yours where people have a cemetery record but we do not have a death record. The responsibility to register the death is with the person organising the funeral etc so if we are not provided with a registration at the time, we are not able to add it the database unless the person in charge is still alive and can provide documentation.
The only other way for you to check our records is to search through the BDM microfiche which are held by some libraries and if you find the folio number then we can check that particular record."
So we are still in the dark. I am unable to get to a major library, and I don't know whether the local genealogy society has NZ information. Will try to find out.
Cheers
Annette
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Hi Annette
Hmm ... I'd also looked at that "Thomas Dillon SMITH - died 1876" and wondered if he was a possibility ?? (The "Dillon" name threw me a bit ... but can now see that it might have been meant to be "William" ??)
The only other way for you to check our records is to search through the BDM microfiche which are held by some libraries and if you find the folio number then we can check that particular record."
I just can't believe the above comment from NZ BDM. Grrr !!! They are SO annoying !! I would surely have thought that they'd have their OWN copy of this microfiche index (but it seems not? Amazing. ) ::)
But don't worry Annette, I'll have a look at the (microfiche) death index for you, and obtain the folio number (it's possible to check also just where the death was registered). I'll get back to you.
Lu
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--- Did you manage to get in touch with the Auckland Central Library, who hold the burial lists for the Onehunga Roman Catholic Cemetery ??
It might be interesting to check whether there is a burial register entry for "Thomas Dillon SMITH" ... (or do they have an entry for the correct name "William Thomas SMITH" ?). ;)
Lu
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http://www.aucklandcitylibraries.com/
>> click on "contact us"
Seems that they have an "ask a librarian" facility.
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Hi Lu
Firstly, I have contacted the Library but have had no reply as yet.
Secondly, I started an email back to BMD, then decided to check what I was talking about and accidently sent it. Here is the reply:
"The number you have given 1876/180 is a unique registration number for this death created when our records were scanned in 1999 - 2001, the folio number for this record is 1876/465. Each page in a register had a folio number and there were usually 5 records on a page so they all had the same folio number, with records prior to 1875 having 8 - 10 records per page and so with the same folio number.
The BDM microfiche lists the name of the person and the folio number only by year and type e.g. birth or death.
If we have transcription errors in the database resulting from when the records were scanned around 1999 - 2001, often the only way we can find them is by using the folio number as these have not changed.
Thinking on from your initial request for William Thomas Smith if he was married then his wife's death should have his name recorded on it, if that is any help."
So am I correct and they have the Folio Number? I have sent details of wife and children.
It did not take long to find the folio number if the number she quotes is it.
Confused
Annette
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Hi Annette
OH my goodness !!! You have every right to be confused.
[I'm sure you can see now, just why we sometimes want to "tear our hair out" in relation to matters concerning NZ BDM ?) :D :D :D
Yes ... they do appear to have the folio number ... but what garbage this response contains (especially the piece about his wife's death). ???
I think I'd send them (yet) another email (as they have the folio number for death of 'Thomas Dillon SMITH') ... and ask if they can tell you just where this death was registered.
(Fingers crossed, you don't get another dopey reply.) ;)
Lu
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Hi
Latest from BMD
"The folio number for the death for Thomas Dillon Smith is 1876/465.
What I was alluding to was that if you wanted to check if there was another death record for William Thomas Smith you would need to search the fiche to locate a folio number.
We do not offer a searching service as such, so I have not checked for any other records, marriages, birth or deaths."
Am I right in assuming that if you find the folio on Fische, then the fische will contain all the information that would be on the printout. The above also means, I assume that I should search the fische in case my William Thomas got missed out completely.
Awwwwwwwwww.
Annette
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She did reply to my query as to where the death was registered with three words
"It was Auckland".
So don't think I am too popular with NZ BMD, don't want to start an across the channel war!!
Anyway so far we have dod correct, two out of three names correct, and place of death (presumably) correct, for Thomas Dillon Smith, being William Thomas Smith.
Annette
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What a confusing lot this is! Anyways, i live about 10 minutes from the church, so if you want a photo of any headstones let me know. Best if you know roughly where the grave is situated in the yard also. It's got quite a well looked after graveyard on it. Church can be viewed on google maps as 126 Church street, Onehunga, Auckland. Might have to do a pan of the maps though. It starts on opposite of the street. Church is very impressive and used by Pacific Islanders now.
The current church [constucted 1887ish] is actually on corner of Church and Galway sts...not Church and Victoria sts. Victoria is 2 streets further along.
Message me with the details anyway [saves me cutting and pasting stuff left right and centre from the thread] and i'll see what i can do over the next few days, weather permitting! It's not very nice here in Auckland at all at the moment!
Cheers
Sarndra
www.sarndra.com
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I live in Onehunga and it looks to me as if the photo is taken looking east with Church Street on the right of the photographer.
The graveyard had been rather neglected but over the past while, a man has been voluntarily planting and tending it so that it now looks very good.
Also, about 5 or 6 years ago, a group of people planted some oaks along the grass verge.This was done without council knowledge or permission.
Was I one of those people?
Regards, Charlie.
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Hi Charlie
lovely to hear of the care of the cemetery
well you can't leave us hanging....the oak tree mystery LOL ;D 8)
Bye
Althea
the NZSG burial locator has the T D S entry
Source NZ Death Index
Surname SMITH
Given Names Thomas Dillon
Year of Death 1876
Record Number 465
Record Type Death registration
Age N/R
Location Auckland
Me again
Thre is a THOMAS DILLON SMITH
he is on the electoral rolls Napier 1865 and 1866 (haven't checked later ones)
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Althea,
The mystery deepens!!! It is difficult to see another Thomas Dillon Smith in NZ at that time.
The idea that the memorial is just that a memorial and not a burial should be looked at, (still leaves the mystery of where he died ) as should the actual cemetery register of burials which should clear the matter up.
Have you checked out this death in 1876 NSW
WILLIAM T SMITH #3849 father THOMAS mother CAROLINE at WATERLOO
regards
Robyn
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The Catholic Church in Auckland has a very good archives department with the original baptisms, marriages and deaths. The website is www.aucklandcatholic.org.nz.
Charlie.
P.S. I saw my oaks today. One, in particular, is growing well and the others are now starting to take off.
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What I was alluding to was that if you wanted to check if there was another death record for William Thomas Smith you would need to search the fiche to locate a folio number.
We do not offer a searching service as such, so I have not checked for any other records, marriages, birth or deaths."[/i]
Hi Annette
[ Grrrrr !!! again to BMD !! ]
My offer still stands. If you'd like me to check the microfiche record for a death of "William Thomas SMITH 1876" (before you go ahead with a printout purchase), then I'm happy to do so.
The above also means, I assume that I should search the fische in case my William Thomas got missed out completely.
Yes, that's how I interpret the instruction from BDM.
Lu
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Am I right in assuming that if you find the folio on Fische, then the fische will contain all the information that would be on the printout.
Hi Annette
No, sorry, that is not the case.
The microfiche record referred to, is simply just an index.
The only details shown are >> e.g.
DEATHS - 1876
SMITH Thomas Dillon 465
Lu
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The current church [constucted 1887ish] is actually on corner of Church and Galway sts...not Church and Victoria sts. Victoria is 2 streets further along.
Sarndra
Just to clarify ... the information as to the church and cemetery location, (as posted in my reply # 22) was taken directly from the NSZG microfiche of cemetery transcriptions (1985).
Lu
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The idea that the memorial is just that a memorial and not a burial should be looked at, (still leaves the mystery of where he died ) as should the actual cemetery register of burials which should clear the matter up.
Robyn
A suggestion that the the burial registers held at Auckland Library, should also be checked ... has been mentioned previously in the thread. Annette is currently awaiting a reply from the library. :)
Lu
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Thank you all
Lu I would be grateful to take up your offer of checking the fische.
Re other ideas: NSW death. There would seem to be no reason for him to be in NSW, but will get a transcription of that death if we can't satisfactorily find it in NZ.
Could it be a memorial, not a tombstone? I don't know.
I will recontact the Library today, as well as follow up the Catholic church site.
Thanks again
Annette
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I do hope a death registration for William Thomas is found.
Could it be a memorial, not a tombstone? I don't know.
From linked thread in Australia
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,380626.0.html
SMITH William
Father Unknown Mother/Spouse Given Names:
11 Aug 1876
75 years
Tasman 696/1876
Could this be him in Tasmania? I realise dod is different but sometimes there are errors on indexes and headstones as well..... :-\ :-\
If the headstone is a memorial then there is certainly is a possibility that an incorrect date of death has been noted.
I note that Theresa 'Tassie" was married in 1878 in Melbourne....I wonder how long she had been a resident of Victoria prior to marriage. Her death certificate should detail time in Tasmania and elsewhere. If she wasn't in the same State/Country as Willam T at his time of death, and if the headstone is a memorial only, this could account for a possible errors.
If you google 'streetview' with the address given on the thread you can see the church but the adjoining cemetery is unfortunately quite blurred.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi
I have just had a reply from the Catholic Church Archives, who can find no record for a death in 1876 for either William Thomas or Thomas Dillon Smith.
They suggest contacting Littles the Undertakers. Anyone know their address or email address.
Otherwise who would administer this cemetery, someone's gottta know who's in there.
Still no reply from the Library, sent them another email today. I am unable to use the Ask a Librarian function, I don't think it likes Oz email addresses.
Cheers
Annette
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See the Funeral Directors Assn of NZ website.
http://www.fdanz.org.nz
>> go to "Members page" >> click on "A" for Auckland listings.
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http://www.onehungacatholic.org.nz/
This link is to the church ... (couldn't see anything mentioned about the cemetery ) ... but there's an email address you can send an enquiry to.
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Thanks Lu,
I sent a email off to Littles, and will send one to the church. There just has to be a record of who, if anyone is buried in that plot.
Annette
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The Auckland City Library used to have the Catholic burial records but sent them back to the Catholic Archives a few years ago. They may have indexes however. They have, I think, some card indexes to early burials by Littles.
I assume the Catholic Archives searched a year or two prior to 1876?
Regards, Charlie.
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deleted
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Hi Annette
Check made of NZ Death Index microfiche 1875 - 1876 :
There is NO entry for a "William Thomas SMITH" .
[The entries for the above years, are handwritten, but the images are very clear and easily read. ]
Lu
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Annette
Who were the SMITH daughters who married in NZ ?
(Husbands' names ?)
Did either of these daughters live in the Auckland area ?
(I'm just a bit curious about this "Thomas Dillon" fella. ) :D
Lu
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Thank you very much for the lookup Lu. I have had no reply yet from Littles, the Library or the Church.
The two daughters who went to NZ are:
Margaret Letitia Smith b, Tasmania 1847 m. Timothy Honan 1865 at St.Mary's Chapel, Meanee, Napier, d. 1938, Auckland, b. Waikaraka Cemetery, Onehunga.
Mary Ann Smith b. Tasmania 1849 m. Thomas William Torr 1867, Napier, New Zealand, d. 1940, Wairoa, New Zealand.
There are a couple of interesting "coincidences" with Thomas Dillon Smith. Althea found him on the electoral rolls for Napier about the time the girls were married there, and the name Dillon as a second given name also surfaced in the the family of the eldest girl, Eliza Jane, in Victoria.
To me, the important next step is to find out who is buried, if anyone, in that plot. It is quite possible that he used the name Thomas Dillon in NZ, and when Tassie (Theresa Helena) had the memorial erected reverted to the name he was known in Australia.
Thanks again everyone for your interest and suggestions.
Annette
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Hi there,
If you click on this link
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/cemeteries/cemetery.html
Put in surname and then scroll down for cemetery waikaraka and click.
You will see where Timothy and Margaret are buried and the inscription as well
There are also two other people buried with them
newbe
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There are a couple of interesting "coincidences" with Thomas Dillon Smith. Althea found him on the electoral rolls for Napier about the time the girls were married there, and the name Dillon as a second given name also surfaced in the the family of the eldest girl, Eliza Jane, in Victoria.
To me, the important next step is to find out who is buried, if anyone, in that plot. It is quite possible that he used the name Thomas Dillon in NZ, and when Tassie (Theresa Helena) had the memorial erected reverted to the name he was known in Australia.
Hi Annette
Mmm ... I was just about to "investigate" this "Thomas Dillon SMITH" a little further. :D
So, there is a "Napier" connection ... daughters married there and a "Thomas Dillon SMITH" on an electoral roll. Also "Dillon" used as name for another daughter.
Date of death (taken from online BDM index) for "Thomas Dillon SMITH" is a match for the death date shown on the memorial to William Thomas SMITH.
SNAP ! BINGO !
William Thomas SMITH's death really does appear to have been registered as "Thomas Dillon SMITH" !
AND ... a NZ Death record of 1876, fortunately has some helpful information ... 'When and Where buried ", are included (for the first time) in death records.
I really don't think that additional information from Auckland Library or the church will help ... it's likely that if they have records at all, then they'd be in the name of Thomas Dillon SMITH.
The death "printout" would certainly clarify matters. ;)
Lu
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Thanks Lu
My researching colleague has ordered the printout for Thomas Dillon Smith. Will let you know of outcomes.
Cheers
Annette
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Beaut day here in Auckland!
Have just emailed you an abundance of photos of William's grave... sadly a bit neglected now.
For those interested:
Cheers
Sarndra
www.sarndra.com
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saving space, and for better RootsChat performance..
Please try for a maximum width of 500-700 pixels.
see Topic: Adding images to Posting & Profiles
1) Resizing and cropping your image file:
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Sarndra
Thank you, much appreciated. It has still fared a lot better than some others, and is made of the most beautiful stone.
The graveyard is a credit to whoever looks after it.
Still awaiting the DC for Thomas Dillon Smith, with no reply from Library or Church.
Cheers
Annette
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Beaut day here in Auckland!
Have just emailed you an abundance of photos of William's grave... sadly a bit neglected now.
For those interested:
Cheers
Sarndra
www.sarndra.com
Moderator Comment: Image cropped and/or re-sized for easier viewing,
saving space, and for better RootsChat performance..
Please try for a maximum width of 500-700 pixels.
see Topic: Adding images to Posting & Profiles
1) Resizing and cropping your image file:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
Sorry bout that...i did resize it but obviously not enough!! ;-)
Cheers
S
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Sarndra
Thank you, much appreciated. It has still fared a lot better than some others, and is made of the most beautiful stone.
The graveyard is a credit to whoever looks after it.
Still awaiting the DC for Thomas Dillon Smith, with no reply from Library or Church.
Cheers
Annette
You're welcome...it's one yard i've actually meant to have got to before now...i've done many of the other cemeteries.
I put some other shots of the church and yard on my flickr account here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/porkynz/3645206329/in/set-72157620035073376/
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Great photos, Sarndra.
I'll try to find the man who has been doing all the work around the church and congratulate him.
Charlie.
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Great photos, Sarndra.
I'll try to find the man who has been doing all the work around the church and congratulate him.
Charlie.
Thanks Chas :-) flickr is one of my fave sites....it's fantastic.
Yes it's nice to walk amongst the shrubbery and well kept graves, i noticed today that some areas of the lawn around the graves had been levelled with soil and grass seed applied even. It's a very well used church most of the week too going by the sign on the door...for several cultures. Yayyyy to those that care about their surroundings :-)
Cheers
Sarndra
www.sarndra.com
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Yes ... fabulous photos Sarndra. Well done ! :)
I'll try to find the man who has been doing all the work around the church and congratulate him.
Go for it Charlie ... he sure does deserve praise. :)
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Hi Listers
A big thank you to everyone who contributed, with special thanks to Lu, Althea and Sarndra. We have received the death certificate for Thomas Dillon Smith and it is assuredly is our William Thomas Smith.
We would still be looking if it wasn't for the genie elves of Rootschat.
Annette
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Welldone
what a great lesson to us all, not to be too rigid on names or their order
Bye for now
Althea ;D
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Hi Annette
Wonderful news ! :)
(Had just this minute also spotted your post on the OZ board re: finding his death notice.) BEAUT ! ;D
Lu
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Lu was referring to my finding the death notice for W D Smith on the NZPapersPast site. I also found the marriage notices for the two girls and that sealed it beautifully, with daughter of William Dillon Smith.
Also found lots of ads for his business in Napier. He had also been living in Wellington, but the years I need are not there.
Cheers
Annett4e
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Well done all,
Fantastic outcome ;D
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Hi all,
Wow!!!
Great result all round!!
Brickwalls tumble with enough perseverance.
best wishes
Robyn
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Splendid :D ...revel in the knowledge!
Cheers
Sarndra
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I spoke to John today. He is the man who has been planting up the grounds and maintaining them. I mentioned this forum and said that people had commented on the great job he's doing.
I told him about the grave that started this post. He has cleaned it, and all the other graves, with a compound that removes "moss, mould and gunge" as the ad here says.
John pays for all the plants himself and he must have spent a large amount on them. He also mows the quite extensive lawn areas, saving the church a lot of money.
We need more people like John around.
Charlie.