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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Tickettyboo on Sunday 14 June 09 19:21 BST (UK)
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I have these people in my tree, am as certain as any of us can be of the line back to them.
I can trace John MAVIN further back but am having a huge problem with Mary Ann BROWN.
Dates and references below, my conclusion from those is that she was born c 1816 to 1821, somewhere near
to North Sunderland in Northumberland.
I would be grateful for any suggestions/opinions/ online references etc that anyone could give to help me trace her back.
I can't find a definite record of her in the 1841 census, nor a baptism record for her, not even a hint of a sibling .
Haven't been able to find a reference to a John BROWN occupation - tailor who, according to her marriage cert, was her father.
Any and all straws will be gleefully clutched at, I have been looking for her for quite some time and keep putting her to one side and going back to her to see if there is anything I have missed. I am based in Canada so personal visits to archives etc are not possible.
Mary Ann MAVIN (nee BROWN)
Died Q1 1885 not yet got the certificate (ref: Q1 1885 Belford 10b 268)
age at death registered as 68
Census 1881 (ref: Class: RG11; Piece: 5127; Folio: 86; Page: 25)
age given as 63, residence Spindlestone, birthplace given as Durham, Sth Sunderland
Census 1871 (ref:Class: RG10; Piece: 5178; Folio: 90; Page: 24;)
age given as 54, residence Spindlestone, birth place given as North Sunderland
Census 1861 (ref: Class: RG9; Piece: 3883; Folio: 64B; Page: 7;)
age given as 44,residence Spindlestone, birthplace given as Northumberland
(then another word possibly Glanton but also possibly just duplicated from her husband's entry)
Census 1851 (ref:Class: HO107; Piece: 2420; Folio: 45; Page: 27;)
age given as 32, residence Spindlestone, birthplace given as Durham, Sunderland
Marriage to John MAVIN, (ref: Q2 1842 Belford 25 265)
North Sunderland Parish Church - parish register image can be viewed at:
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=imageBrowser;c=1309819;w=168
navigate to page 5, last entry on page.
Age given as 'Full' , residence as North Sunderland, occupation servant
That says her Father's name was John BROWN ( oh 'that' narrows it down !) and his
occupation was 'Tailor' as I interpret the writing anyway, alternative interpretations welcome.
1841 census John MAVIN (ref: Class: HO107; Piece 818; Book: 20; Civil Parish: Bamburgh; Folio: 13; Page: 21
residence North Sunderland, in the home of a family called THOMPSON,( two of whom I think are the witnesses at John and Mary Ann's wedding), occupation joiner, born in the county of Northumberland
Unable to find a definite entry for Mary Ann BROWN in the same area, as a 'courting couple'
I assume they would not have been too far from each other in the year prior to their marriage.
Baptism for Mary Ann BROWN ???? Have trawled through various parishes close to North Sunderland without success so far
(I believe that North Sunderland parish church was not built until not long before her marriage in 1842)
I understand that parts of what we now view as Northumberland were historically classed as Durham way back then, so I do believe that any of the above references to Sunderland are to the North Sunderland in the Bamburgh area, rather than the town of Sunderland further south.
Apologies for the length of the post but if I am asking for help I try to give as much info as possible. If anyone has read this far without falling asleep .. thanks for looking :-)
Boo
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I'll use you first name, Ticketty... rather than Boo, your second name.
As Anglican church at North Sunderland did not start until early 1830s, Mary Ann could not have been bapt there.
North Sunderland lay within the Parish of Bamburgh. So, assuming - for the moment- that she/her folk were of the Anglican faith, she was likely to have been baptised at St Aidan's, Bamburgh Parish Church.
If you have searched Bamburgh bapts and not found her, I suggest you consider a different religious denomination.
E.g. There was a Presbyterian church in North Sunderland from late 1700s.
( North Sunderland/Bamburgh area was never part of the County Durham enclaves that were collectively called North Durham- a situation that ceased in 1844)
Trade Directories of 1827 and 1850 list no Brown as Tailor in Belford/Bamburgh/North Sunderland area.
Michael Dixon
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Hello Michael
and thanks for taking the time to reply.
I had wondered about other denominations, but they are not so easily come by on the web. Will ask at the LDS family history centre here in Edmonton and see if I can order the films, will also order the films for Bamburgh, I have only checked on Bishops Transcripts and there is always an outside chance that one or two were missed from the originals.
I had tried the trade directories, but as you say, no John Brown listed as a tailor.
I will keep plugging away at it, I never give up, though this one is proving to be particularly difficult.
oh btw, Tickettyboo is the entire name and Boo is the usual shortened version :-)
thanks again
Boo
I'll use you first name, Ticketty... rather than Boo, your second name.
As Anglican church at North Sunderland did not start until early 1830s, Mary Ann could not have been bapt there.
North Sunderland lay within the Parish of Bamburgh. So, assuming - for the moment- that she/her folk were of the Anglican faith, she was likely to have been baptised at St Aidan's, Bamburgh Parish Church.
If you have searched Bamburgh bapts and not found her, I suggest you consider a different religious denomination.
E.g. There was a Presbyterian church in North Sunderland from late 1700s.
( North Sunderland/Bamburgh area was never part of the County Durham enclaves that were collectively called North Durham- a situation that ceased in 1844)
Trade Directories of 1827 and 1850 list no Brown as Tailor in Belford/Bamburgh/North Sunderland area.
Michael Dixon
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Boo,
Oh btw you are also a city centre pub in Dundee, Scotland, but there you spell yourself Tickety Boo. ( Maybe Elbow Room a more apt name, cos that's about all it has ! )
Next time I am at the County Record Office ( at Woodhorn, near Ashington) I will look up that North Sunderland Presbyterian records for her baptism.
Oh btw(2) yesterday I tried filling the 1827-1850 Trade Directory gap... i.e. 1844 and 1847... still no sign of her tailor (or sailor) father !
Have you seen Mary Brown, the "F.S." (femae servant) in North Sunderland on C1841
page 818/20 6-6 , 15 pages separated from John Mavin ?
Ages on 1841, unlike other censuses are rounded down to the unit of 5 yrs ( So 20 yrs, if that is what is written, then her age could have been 24,23,22,21 or 20.)
And "N" to indicate that she was not born in the county ( of Northumberland) That could mean any of the 50 counties of England, other than Northumberland. But perhaps more realistically this Mary ( the enumerator was not big on second names!) was born in one of the three County Durham enclaves that lay within the boundaries of Northumberland ( Norhamshire-south west of Berwick, Islandshire, area around Holy Island and Bedlingtonshire in south east of county) or even dare I say it in Sunderland in "mainland" County Durham. But of course might not be your Mary Ann at all.
The residences for the Mavins were IN Waren Mills, a very small community that lay WITHIN the boundary of the Township of Spindlestone, that lay within the Parish of North Sunderland, which got it's independence from the "mother" Parish of BamBurgh.
Here in modern times the admin unit of Township is not used ( as I think it still is inCanada ? and US)
Interesting to not that John/Mary Ann, each with a father called John, did not name a son John !
Michael Dixon
Newcastle
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Hi Michael
The look up offer is very kind of you, thank you!
I do have a note of the Mary Brown, female/farm servant in the 1841 census, she is on my list as 'possible but no other point of reference to confirm or deny'. The note that she was born outside of the county could indicate that she was born in Sunderland, south of the Tyne but my aged aunt (now sadly no longer with us) looked slightly horrified at the thought and insisted that it was North Sunderland. I did look in Sunderland, but will backtrack and give it another go to see if there is anything I may have missed.
It is difficult though, as many people said they were born in a particular place, which often turned out to be the first place they remembered living, rather than where they were born.
Thanks also for looking further at directories, I am more inclined to believing that John Brown's occupation, as written in the record, says Tailor but Sailor is also a possibility.
Nice explanation of the admin structure, thanks - I have been to Waren Mills, many years ago, and yes it was a very small community!
thanks for your help and interest, its appreciated.
btw I am grateful to them for not naming a son John. I think I may just have cornered the market in Johns as it is ( along with Williams, Isabellas and Mary Anns)
btw (2) The Ticketyboo (without the double t) family do not appear anywhere in my tree as far as I can tell. My friend, Gannincannylike (answers to the shortened version of 'Gannin') , does have a tenuous link to them though, so I will pass on the info about the pub :-)
Boo
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I looked at my index for North Sunderland which also includes Bamburgh, Beadnell, and Lucker and no Mary Ann Brown. Only Mary was a Mary Jane baptised at Lucker in 1822 and a Isabella Mary in 1817 Bamburgh.
Janis
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She's not in Warenford or Belford Presbyterian either.
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Thanks very much Janis.
Though you haven't found her, knowing where she " isn't " is a big help!
Boo
I looked at my index for North Sunderland which also includes Bamburgh, Beadnell, and Lucker and no Mary Ann Brown. Only Mary was a Mary Jane baptised at Lucker in 1822 and a Isabella Mary in 1817 Bamburgh.
Janis
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and thank you too Jora.
That really is helpful
Boo
She's not in Warenford or Belford Presbyterian either.
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Boo,
Only Snippets.............
Natives will call North Sunderland just Sunderland. ( Early maps in the communities.northumberland.gov.uk web site - in "Plans" and "Ordnance Maps" sections show it as just Sunderland - with no Seahouses... then the progressive naming as North Sunderland and Seahouses outgrowing it !
All censuses call for completion of " Where Born" column... not a "birth place" column. Early Enumerators were instructed to enter ( from info received from household) either " Parish of Birth" or " Place of Birth". New or communities with no "sway" were not usually entered.
Michael Strawclutcher.
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Hi Michael
Thanks for the straws :-) Looking through the Bishop's Transcripts of the registers for the area around there,I had noted that Sunderland was used as the place name.
Don't really grasp the fine points of the difference between "Where Born" and "Birth Place" but nuances of officialdom's ( as in the census form compliers) terms have never been a strong point of mine - on any continent!
Though I do understand what you are saying about the entry the enumerator made in the required column, and accept that it could be a wider area than a tiny hamlet - or Granny's bedroom as the case may have been.
I have started to look again at the BT's for the 'other' Sunderland, have spotted a few Browns ( surprise!) but not a baptism for a Mary Ann with a father called John as yet. Was slightly confused as the LDS seem to have uploaded a whole section of Wallsend parish in the middle of the Sunderland ones and not all years seem to be there for Sunderland. Will keep looking.
Thanks again
Boo
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Boo,
So you looking in Sunderland ( Co Durham) BTs.!
You can hardly ignore the two Parishes of Monkwearmouth and Bishopwearmouth. The town of Sunderland ( a City since 1992) was comprised of parts of three Parishes
"The town of Sunderland is situated on the River Wear. It includes the whole of the Parish of Sunderland and a portion of that (parish) of Bishopwearmouth on the south side of the River Wear, with a portion of Monkwearmouth (Parish) on the north side....... thus forming one large populous and commercial town, the whole of which is generally denominated Sunderland"
( From notes on Sunderland from GenUKI web site)
So if an official recorded a person born "Sunderland", did that official mean the town of Sunderland, the Parish of Sunderland, or the Township of Sunderland, ( lying within the P of Sld),or the Parish of MWM, or the Parish of BWM... ? five similar but different areas
www.joinermarriageindex.com/pjoiner/genuki/DUR/durmap.
Shows interactive Parish map for County Durham ( There is also a similar map for Northumberland)
MD
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Boo, Northumberland County Record Office is open from Sundays-Wednesdays. I will look up baptisms from North Sunderland Presbyterian church sometime between next Sunday-Wednesday.
MD
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Thank you, that's very kind and much appreciated.
Boo
Boo, Northumberland County Record Office is open from Sundays-Wednesdays. I will look up baptisms from North Sunderland Presbyterian church sometime between next Sunday-Wednesday.
MD
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Boo, I got the Record Office week wrong.. It is Wed-Sun, not Sun-Wed. But anyway I visited today.
The source was North Sunderland Presbyterian records 1797-1838.
I looked 1810-1825. No sign of Mary Ann Brown's bapt !
Michael Dixon
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Hello Michael
Thank you so much for going to the trouble to look for me. Though it would have been wonderful to find her, it is still a step forward. At least the list of where she 'wasn't' baptised is growing :-)
I do have to bear in mind that she may not have been baptised at all, plus despite the fact that the census returns are reasonably consistent in suggesting she was born in North Sunderland, it could have been the other Sunderland or indeed anywhere in the country.
If ever she does turn up, I will let you know ( come to that you will probably hear the whoop of glee all the way from Canada to you)
I really appreciate your efforts.
Boo
Boo, I got the Record Office week wrong.. It is Wed-Sun, not Sun-Wed. But anyway I visited today.
The source was North Sunderland Presbyterian records 1797-1838.
I looked 1810-1825. No sign of Mary Ann Brown's bapt !
Michael Dixon
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Boo,
Is there a possibility that her parents were Roman Catholics ?
MD
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Hi again
Well, I never discount any possibility, but I have no indication of it. As far as I can see , the line down from them were all married in C of E churches until one got married in an RC church in the late 1940s - as far as I know she was the only one in the family up till then to do so and she remained C of E, it was her husband who was RC.
If you aren't terminally bored with my puzzle, I would be interested in your opinion on a straw I found floating by (that I have yet to follow up properly).
The only reference to Mary Ann's father is on her marriage certificate. John Brown, a tailor .
So far I haven't found anything in directories available on the web for a tailor of that name. I was ferreting round the 1841 census for something totally different though and spotted a tailor in Pilgrim Street in Newcastle - name of John Brown, with a wife called Priscilla ( or Prefrilla as Ancestry has transcribed it in their own inimitable way) . Neither of them were born in the county of Northumberland and it looks like Priscilla was born in Scotland.
Class: HO107; Piece 845; Book: 3;Folio: 16; Page: 25;
Its a fragile wee straw, but they were of the right age to be her parents.
If you have access to the images, do you know what the letter after the word tailor ( it looks to me like a J) signifies? It appears again a few lines down for another tailor.
Boo
Boo,
Is there a possibility that her parents were Roman Catholics ?
MD
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Boo,
J = journeyman... lit. "man who works by the day"
So it would appear that he was a tailor but employed by someone else, rather than for his own business ( maybe why he does not figure in directories ? )
Pity I can not see them 10 yrs later on c1851.
There was another "J" tailor on same page on c1841.
Can not see any sign of a John Brown marrying a Priscilla in Scotland.
If John/Priscilla had been living in England at the time of their marriage, the marriage laws of England/Wales would have "forced" them to marry in a "Parish Church" i.e. Church of England to produce a legal marriage ( this restriction withdrawn 1837).
Assuming for the moment that Mary Ann was their first child, maybe you should search for a John/Priscilla marriage in Bamburgh Parish records ( Records of North Sunderland C of E marriages do not strart until 1837- or at least that's what's first available today)
MD
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Hi Michael
Sorry for the delay in getting back. Summer has arrived here and after a very long winter when the temperatures go down as far as minus 40 odd ( centigrade) I make the most of every minute of sun !
Thanks for the explanation, I thought it may be journeyman, but like to check these things.
No, I couldn't find John and Priscilla in 1851 either. Neither can I find a likely marriage in the Joiner Index. IGI doesn't reveal anything either. So many possibilities though, Mary Ann's Dad 'could' have died when she was very small. I will keep plugging away at it, maybe some day something will turn up :-)
I am ever hopeful !
Boo
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One step forward and five back !
As well as my G Grandmother ( Mary Ann Mavin) , this couple had three other children. Thomas Mavin (born 1843), Margaret Mavin (born 1852) and Elizabeth Mavin (born 1846)
Thomas became a joiner, like his Dad and stayed in the Spindleston area, he is the easy one :-)
The two girls were in the family home for the 1861 census and then in 1871 they were working at Waren House as domestic servants.
After that, they seemed to disappear.
I have found them, they were both in Scotland in 1881, in Edinburgh, both had married in Scotland.
Scotland's People have their marriage records:
Elizabeth married in 1877, groom was George Laidler. As it is a Scottish record, it gives the names of both father and mother. Elizabeth says her Dad was John Mavin, a joiner, mother was Mary Ann ( maiden surname Brown)
tickettyboo !
Then I looked at Margaret's marriage record.
She married in 1879, to Ralph Wallace. Margaret also had both parents names recorded on the marriage record. John Mavin, a joiner and his wife Mary Ann ... but this time it says Mary Ann's maiden name is Cooper.
So now I am left wondering .. maybe Mary Ann Brown was born outside of marriage? Maybe her father was John Brown but her mother was called Cooper and she and John didn't marry?
Lots of possibilities, I suppose.
errm, could someone remind me why we do this family history thing?
Oh yes, its because its fun ! :-)
Boo
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Over 5 years since I first posted about my blooming Mary Ann Brown, I've moved countries 3 times since then and will do that a fourth time during this year, he, he, and in between I have scoured the web for clues about Mary Ann BROWN and her Dad and STILL I am no further forward, but I live in hope :-)
I have found another 'straw' to clutch at.
Very tenuous but I have found a baptism in 1806 at The Dissenters Meeting House, Bank Side, North Shields which has caught my interest.
1806
Patrick son of John BROWN, tailor, North Shields by his wife Jane was born 2nd Febry and baptised the 8th June
The father was born in the parish of Belford, the mother in the Parish of Bamborough both in the Cty of N. & her maiden name was [WEDDEL/RIDDEL/ ??]
Witnesses present Mark & Mary HEWIT both of N Shields
This is the first straw I have found for a John BROWN, tailor, in about the right timeframe who has a link to the right area where Mary Ann was supposedly born.
I can't yet find any further children of this couple, nor can I yet find a marriage for them,but I thought I'd add the snippet to this thread on the off chance that someday I may eventually solve this puzzle.
If anyone has access to ancestry and can help decipher the mother's maiden name, the image can be found here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01eho/
2nd entry down, right hand side of page. Though the record says his mother is Jane, ancestry (as only they can) have transcribed that as Susannah - go figure 'that' one :-)
Boo
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As you and I both know, it's not easy transcribing - but Susannah? !
As for the surname, I think, on balance, Riddel. The second letter looks like 'e' but there is a definite dot above it and the capital looks more like R than W. I think!
Do you know whether the record is at Woodhorn - it might be clearer on the microfilm.
Christine
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As you and I both know, it's not easy transcribing - but Susannah? !
he, he to be fair it really is a dire image (took me ages to transcribe it and I am trying not to criticise too much as I have probably made some errors myself !) Looking at the image, the two words 'Jane' and 'was' would have been easier to read if the man had put a space between them and at first glance it may have looked like just one word and Susannah has more or less the right number of characters :-). If you are getting paid by the entry to transcribe then there is probably time pressure on you. (though I do think that the company should at least have their transcriptions checked considering the limb to two I pay them a year)
As for the surname, I think, on balance, Riddel. The second letter looks like 'e' but there is a definite dot above it and the capital looks more like R than W. I think!
Do you know whether the record is at Woodhorn - it might be clearer on the microfilm.
thanks for looking , its appreciated and I agree that the capital looks more like an R than a W, but this writing was quite stylised and the image is 'challenging' to read.
I am not sure if Woodhorn have these records or not, I looked on their page for Presbyterian records (non conformists info seems to be split into Presbyterian, RC and Methodist on the info sheets).
Its RG4, Piece 1778 so if they have cross references to the RG 4 series then they may have them but not listed them. I tried the catalogue, but the drop down list for the Place field doesn't seem to mention North Shields at all ! I struggle with that catalogue :-) The congregation (according the letter to the Commission) was dissolved in 1820 and the total date range is 1799-1820.
Its a real long shot anyway, but now and then I spend a few hours trying to see if I can find 'something' for Mary Ann Brown. I take her out of the filing drawer and have another poke around in the hope that something new has come online. If nothing else she keeps me occupied :-)
Boo
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I never use Woodhorn catalogue but according to genuki there are records for Bankside Dissenters (Independant) 1799 - 1820 at Woodhorn. It also says they are on IGI but they probably wouldn't have all the detail on.
I could have a look on Wednesday.
Christine
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If you have the time that would be lovely, thank you Christine. If its a different filming it may be slightly clearer and easier to read the mother's maiden name.
Boo
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Hi Boo
I can without any doubt say that the surname is Weddel. What looked like a dot above the first vowel is actually the end of the upward stroke of the W - totally invisible on the Ancestry version.
Christine
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Hi Christine
Thanks for taking the time to look. Just shows that sometimes we need to check more than one copy of a record to be sure of what it says.
I'll investigate the marriage when I get home and see if I can find any more children. May or may not have anything to do with my Mary Ann but its always worth a look.
Boo
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Almost 3 years on and I have taken Mary Ann out of the box and dusted her off again, if nothing else I am persistent :-)
I was thinking about the discrepancy on the girls' marriage records regarding their mother's maiden name.
And today another straw has floated by :-) I grab each one as I come across it.
There is, on Family Search, a marriage record at Stockbridge Associate Session, Cockburnspath, Berwick, Scotland. This marriage took place on 24th Nov 1814 (which is in the ball park to be before Mary Ann's birth). The LDS have digitised the film but I won't be able to get to the FHC to look at the image for a few weeks.
In the meantime, if anyone knows if there may be a fuller transcription ( I live in hope that the original may have given more details but I know that's a long shot) online I'd be interested.
Boo
One step forward and five back !
As well as my G Grandmother ( Mary Ann Mavin) , this couple had three other children. Thomas Mavin (born 1843), Margaret Mavin (born 1852) and Elizabeth Mavin (born 1846)
Thomas became a joiner, like his Dad and stayed in the Spindleston area, he is the easy one :-)
The two girls were in the family home for the 1861 census and then in 1871 they were working at Waren House as domestic servants.
After that, they seemed to disappear.
I have found them, they were both in Scotland in 1881, in Edinburgh, both had married in Scotland.
Scotland's People have their marriage records:
Elizabeth married in 1877, groom was George Laidler. As it is a Scottish record, it gives the names of both father and mother. Elizabeth says her Dad was John Mavin, a joiner, mother was Mary Ann ( maiden surname Brown)
tickettyboo !
Then I looked at Margaret's marriage record.
She married in 1879, to Ralph Wallace. Margaret also had both parents names recorded on the marriage record. John Mavin, a joiner and his wife Mary Ann ... but this time it says Mary Ann's maiden name is Cooper.
So now I am left wondering .. maybe Mary Ann Brown was born outside of marriage? Maybe her father was John Brown but her mother was called Cooper and she and John didn't marry?
Lots of possibilities, I suppose.
errm, could someone remind me why we do this family history thing?
Oh yes, its because its fun ! :-)
Boo