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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: tropicalj on Thursday 18 June 09 00:46 BST (UK)
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Hello All
I am trying to breakdown this brick wall of mine >:(
Florence Shoebridge was born in Adelaide in 1865. She is my Great Grandfather's Sister. I have her birth details, parents was Agnes Marion Edsall and Alfred George Shoebridge.
She married Arthur Beasley in Adelaide 1/11/1883
Divorced by Arthur Beasley in Sydney on adultery charges with Charles Schnarndorff/Randall ( I have the divorce papers)
She then marries Charles Schnarndorff 12/3/1895 in Sydney ( I have this certificate) He had three children to his first wife who died.
Charles died 30/11/1920 at Coast Hospital, Little Bay, late of 39 Dennison Road, Lewisham
Name of Spouse 1 Julia Ran (which was Ryan) 2 Florence Shoebridge
now in this time frame it wasn't necessary to say whether or not he was a widower.
The information was given his daughter Catherine Richardson, 35 Dulwich Street, Dulwich Hill.
He is buried with his first wife and no sign of Florence in the same grave or area.
Sadly his funeral notices offered no help to me.
Charles Schnarndorff's naturalization certificate is on the NAA.
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The Schnarndorff family changed their name to Randall which was the son's Charles wife's maiden name, maybe it was too German sounding or just too hard to spell ;D
I found this little snippet from the Newspapers
http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5212687?searchTerm=schnarndorff
no relevance though :D
Then nothing further for Florence :-[
no death or remarriage that I can find.......nothing on the electoral rolls 1930, 1936
There was a sister Stella Watts Lee nee Shoebridge also living in Sydney at the time she appears as a witness on the wedding certificate to Charles. She died in 1940 at Marrickville I am considering getting her death certificate so I have a date to check newspaper for to see if her sister gets a mention in the death or funeral notice.
Any suggestions most warmly accepted.
Jenn
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Jenn if Florence Agnes was still alive in 1920 at time of Charles' death, she would have only been 55 and may have entered another relationship assuming the surname of the new partner.
I have trawled the NSW deaths for a Florence Agnes after 1920 and there are a couple of possibilities, including one in 1940 with father Alfred.
Have you thought of trying to find them both on the electoral rolls in 1920 to see if Florence was still alive and living with him. I don't see Florence on the 1903 NSW electoral roll with him, if it is the correct Charles. Perhaps this is the son.
SCHNARNDORFF Charles Wemyss Street, Surry Hills, Labourer
SCHNARNDORFF Charlotte Wemyss Street, Surry Hills Domestic duties
SCHNARNDORFF Henrietta C/- Richardson, Spring Street, Arncliffe Domestic duties
Cheers
Cando
Edit...I see that the electoral roll listing is for Charles the son and his wife Charlotte RANDALL..
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Jenn you could request a search of the electoral rolls as Charles SCHNARNDORFF states he lives at Powell Street, Bankstown in 1910 - his address in the advertisement.
I see the son and his wife were still using the SCHNARNDORFF name in 1936 on the electoral rolls.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks for that sggestion Cando, where would I find the Electoral Rolls for 1920, do you know?
I believe that the name change occurred around 1940 by legal change of name, I have had contact with a ggdaughter who knew nothing of Florence.
I had searched for a death using the parents names but really couldn't find a match. It is possible she may have just lived with someone and upon her death the informant may not have known her parents information.
thanks Jenn
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One of his daughters Henrietta Wilhemina WARREN is on the rolls living st St Clair Powell Street Bankstown in 1930 and 1936, I did a search for the same electorate looking for a missspelling but no joy either.
Jenn
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Wonder if the dau moved into the family home after Charles' death in 1920 or perhaps he was living with her at time of his death.
I think you could request a lookup at the State Library of NSW as you have an address. I recall another chatter who was successful in finding electoral roll listings from the State Library as he had an approximate address - You aren't asking for a general search but you do need an address in that period.
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/services/ask/
You can only try Jenn ;D
A couple of snippets -
Sands 1903 Sydney Directory
SCHNARNDORFF Charles 27 Wellington Place, Sydney
1911 Assessment Books Sydney Council
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/assessmentbooks/CRS17%201911/1911%20FLINDERS%20WARD.pdf -
ControlCSA02751217
Record Item11 14
Ward Flinders 1911
Page11 No of Assessment Book187
No of House 439 Situation Crown Street
Name of person rated Chas Schnarndorff
Name of owner or landlord of property John Chisholm
House, Warehouse or shop -Shop & House
Brick Stone Wood or Iron - Brick
Roof, slate shingles or iron - Iron
No of floors 2 No of room 5
Gross Annual Value in Pounds £58
Remarks - Here Arthur Street.
Charles is also indexed in the July 1906 NSW Government Gazette as being mentioned on Page 200.
Cheers
Cando
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Jenn you may remember this message :)
.......four funeral notices in the SMH Thursday 2 Dec 1920:
SCHNARNDORFF - The Friends of the late Mr Charles Schnarndorff (late of Bankstown) are kindly invited to attend his Funeral to leave 20 Denison Road, Lewisham, this (Thursday) afternoon at 1.45 pm to Catholic Cemetery, Rookwood, via Lewisham Station.
The other notices are similar . The first inviting friends of the family. The second inviting friends of Mr and Mrs Richardson and family to attend their father's funeral. And the third inviting friends of Mr and Mrs S Warren also to attend their father's funeral.
Jenn I wonder if Florence's name was on the first notice inviting friends of the family?
Cheers
Cando
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Just to be pedantic LOL :P
The second of the four funeral notices is inviting friends of Mr and Mrs C SCHARNDORFF - presumably the son. The other three are as Cando has listed. No mention of Frances :(
There is no death notice in that issue of the SMH, or the day before.
I can look up the electoral rolls but I need to know the place >:(
Judith
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Yes Cando do remember the message, and unfortunetly none of them mention his wife Florence grrrrrrr. The son Charles was a Coal merchant.
That would be good Judb but the only address is Powell Street in Bankstown no number though.
She is a realy mystery.
Cando It ake it she is not on the earlier Roll can never rember if it is 1901 or 1903?
Jenn
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No Charles Snr or Florence on electoral rolls.
Cando
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1913 Sydney Directory
SCHNARNDORFF Charles 439 Crown Street
SCHNARNDORFF C Powell St Bankstown
No Number Jenn
Cheers Kris :D
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Thanks Cando I didn't think Charles Senior would be there as he wasn't naturalised then and I wasn't complusory to register or vote was it?
Thanks Kris for that, it may help Judb with a search or not?
Jenn
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1902 Directory
SCHNARNDORFF Charles 27 Wemyss St
SCHNARNDORF C Purk Rd Bankstown
Cheers Kris :)
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Jenn there is a second listing - I was convinced the first one said Purk not Park but The second clearly says Park Road - between George St and McMillan St. The police station appears to be next door.
Kris :)
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Thanks Cando I didn't think Charles Senior would be there as he wasn't naturalised then and I wasn't complusory to register or vote was it?
Charles Snr would not be eligible to vote until naturalised and you are correct, it wasn't compulsory to enrol until 1911 but compulsory voting I think was about 1925 or so. Forgotten most of this and I bet my late civics teacher would be smiling from on high....I wasn't his favourite student ;)
Cando
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Hi All,
Just topping and tailing the Sands Directory findings.
1900
Schnarndorf (sic) C. Park Rd. Bankstown
1915
Schnarndorff, Charles. 439 Crown Street.
Schnarndorff Charles. 39 Denison Rd. Petersham
[Might just doublecheck those numbers . not quite same as Kris]
Correct now
Sue
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Thanks all so far in helping me on this one.
As 39 Dennison Street, was his last know address perhaps that might be the one to check on the Electoral Rolls?
Jenn
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...to attend his Funeral to leave 20 Denison Road, Lewisham from funeral notice.
Jenn perhaps also a lookup at the above address. Of course there is the remote possibility that the properties were re-numbered between 1915 and 1920 :-\
Cheers
Cando
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That is interesting Cando as hi death certificate does state late of 39 Dennison Road............
Jenn
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Wonder if there was another family member in the street as well? Of course there could be an error in the funeral notice.
Cheers
Cando
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A kind rootschatter pm'd me the death of Stella Watts Lee d 7 July 1940 aged 83yrs Our mother & grandmother of above. Cremated. So a lookup of her death or funeral might be revealling.
Jenn
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The lovely JudB sent me this via pm from the library
SMH Monday July 8, 1940
LEE - July 7 at her son's residence, 19 Challis St, Dulwich Hill, Stella Watts, beloved mother of Henry (dec), William (dec), Rose (Mrs J. Reilly), Jessie (Mrs H Pratt) and Arthur. Aged 83 years.
Funeral
LEE - The relatives and friends of Mr and Mrs J REILLY, Mr and Mrs H PRATT, Mr and Mrs Arthur LEE, , and Mr and Mrs A SHOEBRIDGE are invited to attend the funeral of their dearly beloved mother, grandmother, sister and aunt, Stella Watts, to leave 19 Challis Rd, Dulwich Hill today after a service commencing at 3.15pm for the crematorium, Rookwood.
Metropolitan Burial and Cremation Society Pty Ltd, Railway Pde, Burwood
So no mention of her sister Florence but her brother Arthur gets a mention.
Does that mean Florence has passed away?
Jenn
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::) Thank you for your kind words Jenn :)
It looks to me as if it could be either way for Florence at the time of Stella's death, but more likely she is deceased or surely her friends would have been invited too!
Now I was not firing on all cylinders at all today - I see we have the addresses given by Sue last Thurs. So I was looking in the wrong places for the electoral rolls.
Can you find out which division and district Bankstown and Petersham are in, and I assume Crown St is Surry Hills? I'll try and be better tomorrow LOL.
Judith
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Hi - some elecoral roll entries:
1909 Div Nepean; subdiv Bankstown, at Powell St, Charles labourer and Henrietta HD SCHNARNDORFF, (not there 1916)
1915 at 39 Dennison Road, Lewisham, Charles SCHNARNDORFF, labourer and Henrietta SCHNARNDORFF, home duties
1919 Div:South Sydney, subdiv: Surry Hills
SCHNARNDORFF Charles, traveller and Charlotte SCHNARNDORFF, shopkeeper at 439 Crown St,
also searched:
1919 Div:Cook, subdiv: Newtown - to cover Wemyss St
Div: Lang; sub Petersham According to the index Lewisham is covered by Petersham
Cando, in her first reply, suggested looking at the 1920 roll but it goes from 1919 to 1921 and there is no mention in 1921 in the subdivision of Petersham.
Jenn, I must admit to be a bit confused now as to which Cahrles is which and where Henrietta fits in.
I'd be very happy to have another go at electoral rolls if you give me the naes and addresses coz I may have missed some!
Cheers, Judith
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Thanks very much Judith
Now that is very interesting because Henrietta W was his daughter,
So she is living with her father and no sign of Florence.
Perhaps she has left or died between 1895 the year of the marriage and 1909
Jenn
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1919 Div:South Sydney, subdiv: Surry Hills
SCHNARNDORFF Charles, traveller and Charlotte SCHNARNDORFF, shopkeeper at 439 Crown St,
This would be his son and his wife Charlotte nee RANDALL
intriguing to say the least.
Jenn
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What a brickwall this is proving to be, trying to hope someone in someones family will have any knowledge of a lady from well over the 100 years now :( :(
I have found a few more of the Schnarndorff family members to add to my tree on GU in the hope of a hit or two, one can only hope.
Maybe she took up with another man and lived in a defacto relationsphip taking his name, who knows
Jenn
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Oh Jenn, this will teach you to have a smile at newspaper reports - have a look at this one with even a photo! :P
http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5212687?searchTerm=schnarndorff
Doesn't help with Florence though!
Cheers, Judith
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Ah yes seen that one before I wonder if you can still get those pills ;)
Jenn
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Several years on and i still have not found what happened to Florence
But I havent given up
Kind thiughts Jenn
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Hi Jenn
nice to 'see' you :-*
Could this be her - edit: almost certainly not - see below. :(
NSW marriages
3635/1916 Reg St Leonards
Clarence V DUFFY Florence A E SHOEBRIDGE
Just at present I can't follow it up as I need to go out - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Judith
This might be his death
10693/1954 Reg North Sydney
Clarence Vincent DUFFY, parents: Nicholass, Eliza
His death/funeral
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18436462
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The eldest child mentioned in the death notices was born in 1916
35610/1916 reg Chatswood
Eileen J DUFFY Parents: Clarence V, Florence
So it looks very unlikely that this is your Florence given that she would be 51 in 1916. i had hoped, perhaps, that the children were older, possibly his children but looks not.
Boo hoo!
Judith
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Hi Jenn :D ;D
Nice to see you here again ;D
Marital disharmony?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228280085
The Australian Star, Sydney 10 Jul 1901
PUBLIC NOTICES
I will not be responsible for any debts contracted by my wife from date.
Charles Schnarndorff, Bankstown.
Charles' address in the advertisements in 1910 was Powell Street, Bankstown.
Cheers :)
Cando
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Hi,
Mnn thanks ladies. So maybe a separtion or another divorce....when her sister Stella watts LEE died in the 30,s she was not mentioned, their brother Arthur Shoebridge was mentioned.
Regards Jenn
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If this is your Florence - age and State of birth matches, she didn't have a very happy childhood. Didn't her mother die when she was young? Poor child. From the South Australian Police Gazette 1881.
Cando
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thanks Cando, I have seen this one and thought how very sad, seems as if she must have spent her life tryign to find love, from what I have found she never had children herself.
I have found bits and pieces for her on TROVE and her mother Maryann Agnes Edsall her parents were not nice either, circle of such things does seem to happen.
regards Jenn
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Hi every one,
Just checking in and saying I am still on the hunt for the elusive Florence Agnes.
Best wishes and merry Christmas all
Blessings Jenn
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Hello all,
After all these years, I found her !!!!
With Ancestery adding more records, I found Florence Agnes Schnarndorff marrying in 1921 in New Zealand. I have ordered the marriage certificate because on line new Zealand records don't show parents names at death. She appears to have died in 1931 aged 67 which would match her birth year.
Also the records show other Schnarndorffs. Florence second husband Charles Schnarndorff was a seamen and he is shown on NSW records along with an A Schnarndorff. I found a death of Albert SCHNARNDORFF He is buried in the same cemetery as his son Albert Frederick as well as his Wife Jane and Florence Agnes.
So I am thinking when Charles died in 1920 Florence for whatever reason has gone to Nz and meet and married William Arthur Wells.
Hopefully it was happy.
I have added all this information just Incase it may be of help other researchers
Regards Jenn
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Well found, Jenn.
You have looked for this lady for a very long time, so you must be very pleased to have found her. it's always great to hear the 'end' (if there is such a thing in genealogy!) of a search.
Nice to 'see' you. :-*
Judith
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Hi Judith,
Very pleasing and i will await the certificate with some intrepidiation towel if it is her, but I am quietly confident,
Hope all is well with you and staysafe
Regars Jenn
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Hi Jen....Have a look on Paperspast NZ and you will find her death notice and a notice from Wm's first wife, whom he married in NSW seeking a divorce on the grounds of desertion..
Marriage in NSW
7909/1908
WELLS William A
TREGEAR Matilda M
District Granville.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article85985916
Jen I think there is more information on a print out than the actual death cert in NZ. Could be wrong and memory isn't what is was.
Cheers
Cando
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Her burial record at Karori Cemetery, Wellington NZ
WELLS Florence Agnes
Age 66 Years
Occupation Married
Service provided Burial
Burial date 11/07/1931
Funeral director WILSON
Cemetery Karori
Section CH ENG2
Plot number 168 L
Record number 23575
I've searched on Find a Grave and there is no headstone.
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From NZ Police Gazette 1909
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Death in NZ
1951/33748
WELLS William Arthur 76 years
Possibly his birth in NSW
11533/1876
WELLS William Arthur
Father William Mother Bridget
District Goulburn
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A daughter-
WELLS, Mabel E.
At Liverpool, New South Wales
Father William A WELLS
Mother Matilda M
5138/1909
Sue
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Hi all
Yes I have ordered a printout rather than actual certificate.
Thanks Cando I had seen her burial in Karori Cemetery, I should have put the cemetery name in my post, Albert and his son are buried there along with Jane who is buried with them and not her second husband WIlliam Preston. Albert and Janes daughter Mary Elizabeth Chatfield also there.
Reads Jenn
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Digitised Probate file for Wm A WELLS.....nothing of interest really.
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE48434855
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Thanks Cando, stay safe
Regards Jenn
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Morning all
I received the printout this morning and yes it is her. Happy dance
Her husband died in Australia 30th November 1920
And she marries in NZ 4th January, 1921
He was divorced the certificate says 1918.
She was 55 he was 45
Her second husband was 20 years older than her.
She wasn't mentioned at all in the funeral notices for Schnarndorff which I do have from the SMH.
Her first divorce records show she was having an affair with Charles Schnarndorff.
I do wonder if she had been involved with Mr Wells in Australia and they went to NZ. I guess she could have meet and married him in a matter of weeks, such a shame she never had children as they might have known the full details
Thanks everyone
Stay safe
Jenn