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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: dermot lynch on Thursday 18 June 09 12:09 BST (UK)
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G'day...I am trying to assist my daughter who wants to map our family tree and I am finding it very difficult to give her any worthwhile information. Would appreciate any assistance. My mother (Eileen Philomena CAROLAN) was born in Westport, Mayo on 6th June, either 1926 or 1929. She had a brother known as PJ who was murdered, probably in London (I suspect between 1935 and 1960). Her father was Thomas CAROLAN (he served in the British Armed forces in WW1) and he married Helena JONES (I suspect originally from Sligo). I do not know where they were married. My mother spent some of her early teen years in a boarding school in England. I suspect that Thomas CAROLAN would have been born between 1885 and 1908 and Helena Jones between 1887 and 1910. I have found listing in English war records and 1901 census but have no way of tying them conclusively with my family. Seems that there is a real gap for online information in the 1920's onwards and I think I need to find records around that timeframe to link my family to any of the records I have found (war and census). I was hoping for either a record that showed Thomas CAROLAN and Helena JONES marrying, which would have been between 1918 and 1929 or a newspaper clipping giving any details of PJ CAROLAN'S murder or a later family record of the CAROLAN'S showing my mother Eileen as one of the children or any other record I haven't thought about. My mother eventually married BRENDAN JOSEPH LYNCH (from Dublin) in Coventry in England around 1950 (I can't find record of that either) and in 1951 my sister Brenda was born in Dublin, followed in 1953 by myself in Sligo. In 1959 my family immigrated to Australia on the fairsky from Southampton and I have found the ship's passenger list that shows my mum's birth as 1929 but I am not sure if that is accurate as I found a copy of a birth certificate obtained in 1947 which has the year smudged and it could either be 1926 or 1929. My father Brendan was born in 1925 (he had an older brother , Dermot who was born in 1920 and died in 1928). He was in the Irish Army at the beginning of World War 2 and then joined the British Air force. His mother was Ellen ( I don't know her maiden name) and his father was Christopher LYNCH, who was in World War one and who died in 1927 (He had a sister known as Bonnie). I found the record of the grave that he and my uncle Dermot were buried in, in Glasnevin, Dublin. Christopher married Sarah Kelly, who was the daughter of a Harbour Master. When Christopher (known as Christie) died, Sarah married William Magee (around 1930). William had 3 children, Hugh, Billy and Mary. Mary married Danny KINEHAN and they had 2 children, Christopher and Sally-Anne. I suspect that Sally-Anne may be a current member of parliament or have a reasonably high profile position in a government department. Beyond that I know very little. If anyone can shed any light on this it would be appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to read this. Cheers Dermot
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Hi and welcome to RC. first - is the tree on A* yours / your daughters? it helps to see it in tree form (i'd already scribbled it out on paper.)
probably best to stick to one side of family first or it can get confusing! Irish records are tricky anyway.
The A* tree has a marriage Thomas = helena in ireland 1925 but no proof.
will have a rummage around.
Diddy
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G'day to you Diddy...Thanks for the quick response. Yes, Irish records certainly are tricky, confusing, mystifying and intriguing. Not quite sure what you mean by " is the tree on A* yours/your daughters?". Understand what you are saying about sticking to one side at a time. I agree that finding some proof of the marriage between Thomas CAROLAN and Helena JONES is a good place to start. I am going to assume that A* represents one side of the tree and therefore there is a B* for the other side (my father's). This A* side centres around Mayo, where I suspect Thomas CAROLAN was born and where my mother was and SLIGO where I suspect her mother (Helena JONES) was born. I suspect that Thomas died before I was born in 1953, as I was born in SLIGO whilst my mother was living with her mother Helena, in SLIGO. At the time, I think my father was in England working. It's quite possible that Helena married again, as she would have probably only been in her forties when Thomas died, provided of course, that I am not killing him off to early. I remember mum saying that her mother (Helena) lived a long life, well into her 90's and I recall that when we used to go to Grandma Carolan's as young kids (my sister Brenda and myself), there was no Grandpa Carolan. Thanks again for your interest and your time....Cheers Dermot
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Hello Dermot and welcome to Rootschat ;D
Firstly can I say it's not a good idea to publish your email address,contact can be made on the message boards or by PM( Personal Messaging system)
Your mothers birth Eileen P Carolan was in 1929,it is on the Family Search record search pilot.
It gives her mothers surname as Jones and was as you say in Westport.
Registered in the Jul- Sept 1/4 Film number 101231 volume 4 page 334 image number 00114.
Not sure if that helps you at all !
Regards
Carol
PS for Irish records(some!) I suggest you register on this website.
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html?datestamp=1206869134890#start
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Eileen P Carolan married Brandon J Lynch in Coventry in Dec 1/4 of 1950 ref 9c page 1498
You have to search through page by page for those records,they have npt been transcribed on the Free BMD site yet.
The A* that Diddy mentioned earlier was referring to a Carolan family tree on Ancestry.Is that yours?
Carol
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In the words of Neil Sedaka...Oh Carol, I am such a fool...I should have realised it wasn't a good idea to post my email address but I wasn't sure how the system worked. Anyway, as far as the info you have supplied, what can I say! You have achieved in hours what my daughter and I have failed to achieve in months. Through you, we now know for sure that mum's birth was in 1929. We also finally have confirmation of her marriage and the year. Both of these have been contentious points because mum had always said she married at 25 but if she was born in 1929 that would have put her marriage date in 1954, after the birth of my sister Brenda (1951) and myself (1953). Had you given us the birth date alone then it would have seemed that she was married in 1954 but by also providing the marriage year, you have shown that she was married before we were born and that her statement of been married at 25 was incorrect. My father had said that he married at 26 and given that he was born in 1925, it put the date at 1951. So as you can see, you have provided very valuable information, which will now settle a few questions once and for all. I thank you on behalf of myself and my daughter Nicole for your time and effort in uncovering these facts for us. As far as the tree on Ancestry.com, I don't think the Carolan one you and Diddy are referring to is our one. The one my daughter started is on Ancestry.com.au and it is called Edwards_Lyndon/Carolan_Lynch family tree. The Edwards_Lyndon comes from her mother's side of the family. Thanks again for your great effort and valuable time given. It is truly appreciated. Cheers Dermot
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Dermot,
Go back into your first post and click on modify-you can then remove your email address(before the spammers catch on ;D)
You can obtain any certificate online from England or Wales by going to http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ at a cost of £7.
Use the refs I gave you for your parents marriage one.
The irish ones are available from http://www.groireland.ie/ but you have to post(snail mail!) the order form to them.
Carrol
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Dermot, i apologise - i should have realised as new to this you wouldn't necessarily understand my shorthand!!
A* is indeed the online family history site and the tree i found is your daughters.
i did have a quick look for the murder of PJ. do we know what the initials stood for?
he is not mentioned on the Murder UK site nor on the unsolved in the uk site - this does not include 'the troubles'as they put it in Ireland. also could not find his death. he too could be on the pilot site? not sure what date they go up to without looking.
Diddy
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Diddy,
On the Family Search site there is a birth of a Patrick Joseph Carolan also in Mayo-which may be him.But of course it's not complete yet.
They don't have the marriage of Thomas though- maybe it occured in the UK?
Carol
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Carol, was just about to post - also on the pilot site!!
was looking for birth/death of PJ. also found patrick joseph. great minds and all that.
we need confirmation of his proper name. dermot the site we are looking on is:
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#c=1408347;p=collectionDetails;t=searchable
Diddy
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Dermots daughter has PJ birth as 1925 westport - may be a guess. but trhat fits with the one on the pilot:
patrick Joseph carolan oct - dec 1925 westport,mayo. 101229 4/347
there is also a death 1930 saying birth1925 but the child is only 5.
think we need to wait for dermot. Diddy
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think we need to wait for dermot. Diddy
Great minds Diddy ;)
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G'day to you Carol and Diddy...First, let me apologise if it is inappropriate to respond to both of you with the one posting. As you will have been gathering, I am a neophyte when it comes to this form of communication. Although I have been involved with computers since the mid 1970's, this side of computer use is relatively new to me. I can only assure you that anything I might do, such as displaying my email address (which I have removed as instructed [thanks Carol]), will be from ignorance, not arrogance. Carol, you gave the marriage details as Brandon P Lynch. Can you confirm that it reads Brandon, not Brendan? Just so that when I follow up your leads I am on the right trail. As far as following those leads and suggestions that you guys (I hope you use the term "guys" the same way we do over here) have provided, I will do so. Its just that I have very little free time at the moment and just responding to your efforts and questions is all I can achieve at the moment. As far as PJ is concerned. I don't know what the PJ stands for but have always thought that Patrick Joseph would be a strong possibility. I was in my very early teens when I saw the newspaper clipping, so that would mean the latest he could have been murdered would have been 1968. I seem to recall that the clipping was quite aged, so a number of years can be taken from that date. That would put the latest date at around 1960. I suspect that my mother brought the clipping with her when we immigrated to Australia in 1959, so that should peg it back another year. I gather that my mum and her brother PJ were very close, so I am assuming that they close in age too. I also seem to recall that the article mentioned a young man having been murdered, not a boy. This would put his age at death between 18 and 30 perhaps. Mum was born in 1929 (now finally confirmed thanks to your efforts) and so PJ was probably born between 1924 and 1934. Mum spoke very little about her youth but did mention that her and PJ would take the truck after the farm hands had finished for the day and she would drive around while PJ would be jumping and diving into the hay in the back of it. Given that mum went to boarding school in England as a teenager, I would imagine that she would have been around ten years of age when her and PJ would be doing this. Also, given that she was driving and not PJ, it suggests to me that she may have been the older of the two. I don't recall actually reading anything in the clipping that pinpointed where PJ was murdered but thinking back on it, for some reason I get the impression that it was in England, possibly London itself. I suspect that PJ was in England at the same time as my mother was there at boarding school. So putting all that together, it would seem that the earliest that PJ could have been murdered would have been around 1942 and the latest 1959. Of course all this is conjecture and reliance on memories as a child. As a starting point I have been concentrating on that period, as yet to no avail. Of course my failure to uncover any reference to this event is probably only an indication of my inexperience given what you guys have uncovered that I also failed to find. I also feel that mum probably wouldn't have agreed to immigrate to Australia if it meant leaving PJ behind. As we immigrated in February 1959, I suspect his death must have been in 1958 or earlier. I wonder if PJ was alive when mum got married and if so, if he might have witnessed her marriage. I will have to follow up on getting that certificate. If he is listed as a witness then it would narrow the dates even further. Nicole (my daughter), put in the year 1925 and Westport as a guess. We have an old photo of mum and her sister standing either side of a young man, all three linked arm in arm and we suspect that the man in the photo might be PJ. He appears to be in his early twenties. If this photo is indeed of PJ then the dates would have to be between 1946 and 1958. Can't think of anything else I can add about PJ that would be of assistance. Finally, I have to say that your efforts have touched us. I told my daughter about the info on mum's birth and marriage and when she asked how I knew, I told her about this site and your endeavours. She was quite overcome that strangers would go to such an effort to be of assistance and wanted me to pass onto you her sincere thanks. I have always told her that the Irish are a very friendly and helpful, as well as charming, witty and intelligent people and your response to us has confirmed this. Thank you! Thank you for your assistance and for adding to the richness of my daughter's inheritance by showing her the quality and the value of having an Irish bloodline. Cheers to you both....Dermot
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Eileen P Carolan married Brandon J Lynch in Coventry in Dec 1/4 of 1950 ref 9c page 1498
Dermot
I have just taken another look at the entry and it does indeed say BRANDON J LYNCH. Although the GR(general registry office) indexes are not always 100% correct! Or with the irish accent the registrar or priest heard it incorrectly.
Or maybe could read his own writing ;D
If you got the cert you are indeed correct that you would get witnesses who may perhaps be PJ. So are you thinking that he too lived around Coventry or did he die in Ireland?
Carol
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G'day Carol
I will send for the certificate now that I know what name it is registered under. I suspect that PJ was in England at the same time as mum and she met dad in Coventry, where they were eventually married. It may be that she went to a boarding school in Coventry. I think, given that mum and PJ were close, that if she was getting married and he was in England at the time, he would have attended the wedding. If he is not one of the witnesses it doesn't really lead anywhere as he may not have been there at the time but if he is listed as a witness then it narrows the dates. I may be wrong about where he died but I feel it was probably in England. It was so long ago that I read the clipping that I really can't be sure of much. The mind sometimes plays tricks on you when you try to fill in gaps in memory. It may be filling in gaps with whatever will fit, rather than with actual memory. I am not sure if this is a mind fill or a true memory but I think the clipping might have said that he was stabbed. Don't put too much weight to that as it could be just a mind trick. I gather that you chase all sorts of information for a variety of people. How do you manage to keep all the information from blending together? I find myself sometimes searching for mum's relatives with dad's surname and visa versa or looking for dad's relatives in mum's hometown etc. I couldn't imagine trying to track information for a number of family trees at the one time. One tree is more than enough. Especially given that as you go further and further back it branches into more and more surnames. It's almost as bad as pyramid selling. You start with looking for a couple of parents and then you have one parent's parents and the other parent's parents and then each of those parent' parents....Ahhhh! The brain is already going into overload just thinking about it. Cheers Dermot
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My gran and grandad were first cousins,so they had the same grandparents.
That narrows my tree down a little !
Even so after 20+ years of doing my own tree I get confused over which surname belongs to which side of my tree.....a trusty computer programme helps though.
It's my hubby's Irish lot(Co Clare) that I have the most trouble with.
They name everyone the same.......and yes he's a Patrick ;)
Carol
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Now that's a rarity. We are finally talking in real time. Nine o'clock Saturday morning for you and six pm Saturday evening for me, give or take a bit. Usually, I get up in the morning and find you have posted whilst I was asleep and I imagine it has been the same for you. Twenty years of doing your family tree. I don't think I will pass that onto my daughter, it might scare her off. It's kinda giving me a scare. How far back have you traced and how extensive have you managed to make your tree over twenty years? My daughter has been doing it for just a few months and has currently three hundred and eleven names, how many do you have? Are you your family's historian or do other members also do it? Do they all show an interest in it? Can I ask, did you come across many surprises as you uncovered your tree? Cheers Dermot
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HI again Dermot( on saturday!)
Well PJ didn't die between 1950-60(inclusive) as I have just trawled through the death indexes.
I have to go now but will try some more earlier dates later unless someone else can do some before I get back.
Carol
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Hi Dermot & Carol,
Dermot - you will definately get hooked on this lark. i started about 6/7 years ago during an illness when i had lots of time. it is very compulsive and its not just the names / years for me, i love finding out about he history/social side of my family. I don't have any connection with ireland actually. my family descend from the NE of England and Fife in Scotland. scottish records are a lot easier as they are all on one site! and we can print out certs.
I like helping others - i used to be an information librarian so guess its nature. but yes sometimes i can get confused. i had a reply today from one i had posted way back and then had to go through the whole thing to remember!
your workings out of the PJ dates are useful. I'm glad its wasn't the 5 year old boy.
Diddy
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Have just found a useful site but records are only 1800- 1900
tried going back from 1900 for Thomas birth. first i found are 3 in 1887 but you need credits to view full details.
was actually looking for newspapers online. they only go back so far. then thought mayo library might hold older copies - even if PJ died in England would prob have been reported in local paper? would prob need more idea of date though. might be worth contacting library at:
Mayo Library Headquarters,
John Moore Rd.,
Castlebar,
Co. Mayo,
Ireland
Phone +353 (0)94 9047922 Fax: +353 (0)94 9026491
E-Mail: librarymayo@mayococo.ie
Web: www.mayolibrary.ie
Diddy
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sorry mind ahead of fingers - that site is :
www.mayoancestors.com
Diddy
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Diddy
Good thinking about "even if PJ died in England" .....that's exactly what happened when my father in law died in 1957 in Hertfordshire.
It was reported in the Clare Champion back in Ennis....his home town.
I'm going to plod through a few more years of deaths now.
Carol
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carol. which death index are you using - i can't find him anywhere online?
thinking about newspapers etc comes from my librarians mind!! 8)
Diddy
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Find my Past-although Ancestry also has the FULL indexes,others are only partially transcribed and do not cover the period we're after.
Carol
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Well I've now done the deaths from 1939-49 inc. and not found a Patrick J Carolan of the right sort of age.
However I don't know if this is relevant at all but I did find the death of a 3 year old Maureen S J Carolan in Coventry in Dec 1/4 of 1943.
Looking for her birth finds it was in Mar 1940 and her mothers maiden name was Carroll.
Do you know if PJ married? Maybe Coventry had more Irish than I realised,although Carolan is fairly uncommon a surname anywhere in the UK back then.
Carol
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G'day Carol and Diddy...I don't know if PJ ever married. At the moment I can't do much with the info on the death of the infant Maureen Carolan as I just don't have any pieces to join it to just yet. I have the same problem with the Thomas Carolans born in 1887. Those three records give me info on his parents but I need to link my mother back to his birth or a census record or such that provides the link first before I can have any idea if any of those three are connected. Later on the trail that information will hopefully be invaluable. This is where (as you both are probably only too aware) it gets murky. I have found a number of Thomas Carolans that might fit but I can't fit them without the missing pieces. I didn't want to add to the confusion by throwing them in until they could be linked, so remember, I have no connection for these.
Thomas Carolan
1911 Census
Born Dublin ( I would have thought born Mayo but Dublin is possible)
Age 15 ( This makes his birth 1896. Would be thirty three mum was born)
Father James 46 years of age - born 1865 in Meath
Wife Anne 40 years of age - born 1871 in Dublin
Married 16 years Would be 1895
Daughter Anne 12 years of age - born 1899 in Dublin
Daughter Bridget 9 years of age - born 1902 in Dublin
Son James 6 years of age - born 1905 in dublin
Address 14 Mabbot Street North Dock Dublin
That one I came across whilst looking for my father's father (Christie) and in one of those moments of confusion I ended up looking for Thomas in Dublin. Dublin is not impossible but wouldn't have been my first choice given that mum was born in Mayo. If one of the kids or his wife had been named Eileen or Phiomena I would have given this one greater strength, given my mum's name and the tradition of naming the kids after other members of the family tree. If I stretch for a connection, Bridget was also the name of one of my mum's sisters who was run over and killed when she was about 55 and James could be the J in PJ. No sign of a "P" though. So for the moment, this one just sits in the filing cabinet, so to speak.
Thomas Carolan
Mayo birth records (mayoancestors.com)
Baptised 1887 Father Thomas Carolan Mother Catherine Walsh South Mayo
Born 1884 Father Thomas Carolan Mother Mary Walsh South Mayo
Born 1884 Father Thomas Carolan Mother Mary Walsh North Mayo
Those last two are either the same one with an error in the locations or there were two Thomas Carolans who just happened to both be married to a Mary Walsh, both in Mayo, one north and one south and both gave birth in 1884 and named their child Thomas. Seems more likely that it is a duplication with location error. Even the other one (1887) seems odd. Two Thomas Carolans, one married to Catherine Walsh and the other to Mary Walsh, both in South Mayo, both giving birth around the same period and both naming their child Thomas. Anyway, there is another one.
Born 1887 Baptised 1st November, 1887 Knockbrega Burrishoole/Newport Parish North Mayo
Father Dominick Carolan 28 years of age born 1859
Mother Mary Coyne 24 years of age born 1863
Sponsor 1 John O'Boyle
Sponsor 2 Kate Moran
I found a Dominick Carolan baptised in 1859 in Louth, St Peters Parish Honeymore/Chester Lane
Also found in 1901 census
Dominic Carlon aged 55 from Knockbrega
Mary aged 50
Michael aged 14
Thomas aged 11
Owen aged 9
Kate aged 7
Annie aged 5
This census listing fits the records above except for the ages of Dominic and Mary. Surname shows Carlon not Carolan and Dominick shows without the "K". Thomas's age is out by a couple of years. What makes me think this is inaccurate is the age of the parents and the kids. Annie is only 5 but her mother is 50, Kate is 7 and Owen 9. Unusual to have three kids after the age of 40. Now, if you knock ten years off the parents ages, it all fits a lot better. Having said all that, I have nothing to link this to my mum's dad, so it too is in the filing cabinet.
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continued...ran past maximum allowed...
I found three Thomas Carolan's in WW1. Mum had said that her father was in the British Army. Two of them are in Irish regiments.
The first one's registration card shows Thomas Carolan and someone has written on it, " see Carlan".
Royal Irish Regiment R/9696 Private 30th December, 1908 - 22nd November, 1916.
To have joined in 1908 he would of had to have been 18 or just a few years younger, looking 18. So his birth would have to be between 1890 (if 18 when he joined) back to 1887 (if 21 when he joined). If this is mum's dad then we can put his birth as no later than 1892.
The second one reads
Connaught Rangers and Cameron Highlanders 5743 S/49964 Private.
Again, I have nothing to link these to mum.
I found another record that was for WW1 Service and it was Thomas Carolan Meath. That's all I have on that one.
Just jumping back to PJ for the moment. Searching the newspaper articles for PJ can bring up PJ Carolan who was involved in the theatre as a writer or director of plays. I have nothing to suggest that this is the same PJ. So these reference could be to him or to the other.
Saturday 26th July, 1947 Connaught Tribune, Page 9
Saturday 15th February, 1958 Connaught Tribune, Page 13
Monday 23rd January, 1967 Irish Independent Page 6
I have no idea what is on those pages except that according to the search engine PJ Carolan is mentioned.
Anyway, that is just about all that I have on PJ.
I have found 1901 census records on a number of Thomas Carolans but can't link them to mum. I am not sure if providing this unlinked info is helpful or just adds to the confusion. That is why I haven't presented it before. What are your thoughts? Should I give the unlinked stuff? If so I will provide the info I have on the census I just mentioned. I also have unlinked info on Helena Jones and Christy Lynch and Sarah Kelly etc. I just don't want to add to the confusion. Let me know what will help?
I know I keep saying it but I do want to thank you for your time and effort, it is truly appreciated. Cheers Dermot
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Hello Dermot,
I am your cousin, Denise, Mary and Danny's daughter.