RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Tiffaney on Tuesday 07 July 09 05:06 BST (UK)
-
Hi members,
Myself & a friend have been searching & searching for the passenger list of the
vessel "Indian Queen" in c1856.
The children concerned on this voyage are James & Isabella Nairn with their parents. Also another son Robert was born c1856 on the voyage to New Zealand.
We would both appreciate your help.
Thank you,
Tiffaney
-
hi,,,saw a page on the net,,,apparently this guy has the passenger list for the INDIAN QUEEN out of LIVERPOOL 5/11/1856
www.angelfire.com/az/nzgenweb/sharing.html
IS THIS THE SHIP ? IF SO,,,U HAVE TO E-MAIL
r.hall@xtra.co.nz
-
ALSO THIS LADY MAY HELP YOU...LET ME KNOW HOW YOU GET ON
NZ!Indian Queen!30 Jan 1856!Wellington!LYNCH!
(*)!Rosemary
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Hi Tiffaney :)
Haven't we had this enquiry before ???
Pretty sure that there is only a partial list of passengers for the "Indian Queen" voyage ... and your NAIRN family weren't mentioned.
Lu
-
Hi Tiffaney
Sorry ... it was an enquiry made by another ... but seems to be same family ? :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,313165.15.html
and ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,301206.0.html
-
Many thanks Lucy2. & gortonboy.....hadn't noticed that other message where the Nairns weren't
named.
Will email the people you have given me gortonboy..Left Liverpool 11/05/56 sounds most promising.
Much appreciated....
cheers Tiff :D
-
Hi gortonboy.......
sadly both emails came straight back but thanks for pointing them out for me.
have you anymore suggestions please.
will try NZSG also.
Thanks,
Tifffaney
-
Hi Tiff
When I endeavoured to assist the other (earlier) person who was looking for the NAIRN's on the "Indian Queen" passenger list, I made contact with Robert Hall (r.hall) who holds only a partial list of those on the voyage. (I seem to recall him telling me that "his list" was made up of some information obtained from Archives NZ (Wellington) plus names that had been given to him by researchers who had through other sources, determined that their rellies had arrived on the vessel. He did confirm at the time however, that NAIRN was NOT on his partial list).
Some time ago I also received advice that Robert Hall had had a change of e-mail address (not sure though whether I still have a note of that ... but will take a look).
Lu
-
Hi again Tiffaney
Have now located the last email address for r.hall > will send to you via PM.
You might like to contact also, the lister in the other thread (although he appears not to have been online since last year ??). I've since deleted the info I sent him via PM - but he may still have a note of it ?
Lu
-
I am also looking for a copy of the passenger list for the Indian Queen arriving in Wellington, New Zealand in January 1857. In particular, I am interested in the names Glover and Walker.
-
Hi babclive
... and Welcome to RootsChat. :)
Is it Rebecca and John GLOVER you are seeking ?
Lu
-
Hi, It is Rebecca and John Glover. In particular I am seeking the names of their children - i have 2 names (Rebecca and Elizabeth) but I understand that there was a third daughter also whose name I do not know.
-
Hi babclive
Have you seen this ?
(Obituary for Mrs Rebecca GLOVER)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
Feilding Star - 25 February 1901 - page 2 - "Obituary"
[Click on .. "Regions" >> "Manawatu" >> "Feilding Star"]
Five children - 4 daughters / 1 son - survived her.
I'll send you a PM (personal message) with the link to the person who has the "Indian Queen" partial passenger list.
Lu
-
For babclive
Only the married names of the GLOVER daughters were given in Rebecca's obit. The following are their marriages.
NZ Marriage Index [Source: NZSG CD]
Rebecca GLOVER - Benjamin DUTHIE - 1872
Ann GLOVER - James RITCHIE - 1871
Harriett GLOVER - John McArthur WRATT - 1880
Mary GLOVER - William TURNER - 1884
Lu
-
Thanks for the list of names. Rebecca's death certificate lists the ages of 5 living daughters nad 1 son at her death.
-
Rebecca's death certificate lists the ages of 5 living daughters nad 1 son at her death.
Mmm .. okay.
Can you tell us what the ages of these daughters are - as shown on the death certificate ?
* Do you have any more information about the daughter "Elizabeth" ??
Lu
-
For babclive
The "Passenger Arrival cards - Port of Wellington - 1856-1887" show only one person named WALKER :
Thomas WALKER - Indian Queen - 1857
Lu
-
Hi again Tiffaney
Sorry ... should have added also, that your NAIRN family DO NOT (unfortunately) appear on the Wellington - arrivals, card index. :(
Lu
-
Sorry about the slowness of replying. I have been away. The daughters ages on the death cert are 47,45,40,38 and 28. I suspect the youngest was a Fanny Glover. As for Elizabeth I suspect her name was Elizabeth Ann - as per a marriage record for 1871.
-
Hi babclive
Okay ... will have a further look at these GLOVERs.
* Did you make contact with the person I gave you the email address for ... (the chap who has the "Indian Queen" partial-passenger list) ??
* Was the "Thomas WALKER" name I found earlier, the one you were looking for ?
Lu
-
I tried to contact the person whose email you sent me, however, it bounced back as an invalid email address.
I will lokk further into Thomas Walker. I do not know if he is connected or not. John Glover's mother was a Mary Walker and I have come accross family connections with Walker's in NZ so I am seeking to see if there is a connection. Do you have a obt for Rebeeca Glover? Where can I obtain a copy of this?
Thanks for your assistance.
-
Hi
Obituary for Rebecca GLOVER :
Go back to reply # 12 in this thread. I've given instructions there on how you can source it.
:)
-
I tried to contact the person whose email you sent me, however, it bounced back as an invalid email address.
Well that's a shame about the 2nd email address no longer working. (That was an updated addy that the chap had sent me about six months ago). :(
Anyway, borne out of the frustration of this "Indian Queen" passenger list being made available only through this one source, (r.hall), I am currently endeavouring to piece a list together myself. Eventually, I'll send this off to one of the shipping list websites, so that it will be in the public domain and easily accessed.
* Do you have some record that this Mary WALKER actually came to NZ ... is there say, a New Zealand death record for her ?
Lu
-
I have no record of Mary Walker coming to NZ, but from experience with other family members, When they came to NZ there were often 2 or 3 siblings or cousins who came - maybe not all at the same time.
-
If you have an approximate year of birth for this Mary WALKER then you may find her by searching the (online) NZ Death Index ?
http://bdmhistoricalrecords.identityservices.govt.nz/
-
I looked up the 1851 UK census and note that a Thomas Walker (born 1829) was living at the same address as for John (born 1829) and Rebecca Glover. I assume that John Glover and Thomas Walker were cousins.
-
Hi Tiff
I suppose you know of this list of Paddy's? If the Indian Queen which arrived Jan 1857 is your voyage he may be able to help.
http://www.familytreecircles.com/journal_16802.html
Regards
David
-
Hi Tiff
I suppose you know of this list of Paddy's? If the Indian Queen which arrived Jan 1857 is your voyage he may be able to help.
http://www.familytreecircles.com/journal_16802.html
Hi David
I'm obviously not "Tiff" to whom your message was addressed, but I'd like to "drop in" with my penny's worth. ;)
The link you've provided which mentions the "Indian Queen" states that "I HAVEN'T GOT lists for the following ... " (and that includes the "Indian Queen").
[Incidentally, the person behind this "Shipping Lists to Wellington" website, published a message in this forum some time back. I wouldn't ever want to be seen as "rubbishing" the efforts involved in providing such helpful information, BUT ... the great majority of the passenger lists on that site are already available elsewhere, and are much more easily accessed by researchers, ... e.g. they don't require an email to be sent to the lists' owner in order to obtain the information ! Problems arise too when "owners" of these "closed" shipping lists, fail to update any changes to their email addresses ! ]
Lu
~ in NZ
-
Hi Tiff
I suppose you know of this list of Paddy's? If the Indian Queen which arrived Jan 1857 is your voyage he may be able to help.
http://www.familytreecircles.com/journal_16802.html
Hi David
I'm obviously not "Tiff" to whom your message was addressed, but I'd like to "drop in" with my penny's worth. ;)
The link you've provided which mentions the "Indian Queen" states that "I HAVEN'T GOT lists for the following ... " (and that includes the "Indian Queen").
[Incidentally, the person behind this "Shipping Lists to Wellington" website, published a message in this forum some time back. I wouldn't ever want to be seen as "rubbishing" the efforts involved in providing such helpful information, BUT ... the great majority of the passenger lists on that site are already available elsewhere, and are much more easily accessed by researchers, ... e.g. they don't require an email to be sent to the lists' owner in order to obtain the information ! Problems arise too when "owners" of these "closed" shipping lists, fail to update any changes to their email addresses ! ]
Lu
~ in NZ
Hi Lu
Yes I saw that the list and the comment about those being the ones he hadn't got, but he laos says that if the list required isn't on the link then assume he has got it.
So I thought if the Indian Q passenger list required wasn't the one that arrive Jan 1857, then perhaps he may have the list with "Nairn" on it - hope that makes sense
Reagrds
David
-
Cheers David :)
The "Indian Queen" passenger list being sought in the thread is for the voyage which commenced 1856, arrived Wellington, NZ 30 January 1857.
This vessel made just the one trip to New Zealand.
Lu
-
Hi Tiffaney
I've now managed to gather further information for the "Indian Queen" 1856-57 voyage ... it is NOT however a passenger list, as one seemingly does not exist.
All Archives New Zealand hold, is a "Bills Payable" list (Promissory notes) which includes the names of almost all of the "heads of families" and on this I found the name of James NAIRN. It shows that he was still owing his fare (or part thereof) and fares for FOUR other family members. (No names stated and amounts owing, not recorded). The list would have been prepared at the port of departure.
I still have two newspapers to search further (they're not on PapersPast) but don't hold a lot of hope of finding the actual passenger list. All I've seen to date, recorded, is that there were 22 deaths aboard the "Indian Queen" - can't find anything relating to births on board.
Lu
-
For babclive
Can't really help you any further with finding the "mystery" daughter (aged 28 in 1901) of Rebecca and John GLOVER.
I wonder if it is an error on the death cert ? (Only four daughters were mentioned in the obituary notice ... it seems odd that one would be left out ?) And if Rebecca was indeed 78 years of age when she died, then the last daughter would have been born when Rebecca was aged 50 ! (Not impossible, but perhaps unlikely?) I guess only the birth cert. for Fanny GLOVER will confirm.
Lu
-
For babclive
As in my earlier message for Tiffaney, I have a list of promissory notes for the "Indian Queen" voyage (ex Archives NZ).
John GLOVER is listed as owing payment for his own fare and for those of FOUR other family members. There was also another entry for a further single fare owed by John GLOVER - this was listed on a sheet entitled "miscellaneous entries":
There was only one person named WALKER on the voyage - namely Thomas WALKER.
Lu
-
Re the Fanny Glover mention
there are possibly more than one
note that one was born 1873
1873/4483 Glover Fanny
there is also a married Fanny glover (widow) with a probate
Bye
Althea
-
Hi again Tiffaney
Sorry ... should have added also, that your NAIRN family DO NOT (unfortunately) appear on the Wellington - arrivals, card index. :(
Lu
Many thanks Lu.....did you do that lookup for me. Thank you so much, that was very thoughtful of you.
Tiff
-
Hi Tiffaney
I've now managed to gather further information for the "Indian Queen" 1856-57 voyage ... it is NOT however a passenger list, as one seemingly does not exist.
All Archives New Zealand hold, is a "Bills Payable" list (Promissory notes) which includes the names of almost all of the "heads of families" and on this I found the name of James NAIRN. It shows that he was still owing his fare (or part thereof) and fares for FOUR other family members. (No names stated and amounts owing, not recorded). The list would have been prepared at the port of departure.
I still have two newspapers to search further (they're not on PapersPast) but don't hold a lot of hope of finding the actual passenger list. All I've seen to date, recorded, is that there were 22 deaths aboard the "Indian Queen" - can't find anything relating to births on board.
Lu
Lu what you have found above is great...at least it confirms they were on that trip. Very pleased and have now printed it off.
Thank you very much for your time & effort,
warm regards,
Tiff
-
Thanks Lu for the information on the Glover's. The 4 fares would be fore Rebecca Glover (wife of John) and their 3 daughters, Amy, Rebecca and Elizabeth Ann. Amy is a bit of a mystry - she is mentioned as their daughter in the 1851 UK census but can find no information about her in NZ. she certainly died prior to her mother. I wonder if shew actual died on the journey to NZ as I can find no record of her death in NZ.
Clive
-
Hi Tiff
Glad that the info, as meagre as it was, was of some help. ;)
The Wellington Central Library has a resource entitled "Passengers to Wellington", which was formulated from a series of index cards prepared in the 1980's by a local NZSG group. The information appears to have been transcribed from a solitary list found in an old Wellington newspaper, which noted the names of a good many adult passengers, who offered a public vote of thanks to the ships' Captain.
The name of your James NAIRN, didn't however appear on that list, and the reason may well have been, that because there was still sickness aboard the vessel when it arrived in Wellington, it remained in quarantine for some time, and passengers were released in "dribs and drabs".
Lu
-
Lucy2
Found your posting very interesting and appreciate your time with your search for me.
Thankyou,
Tiff :D
-
Thanks Lu for the information on the Glover's. The 4 fares would be fore Rebecca Glover (wife of John) and their 3 daughters, Amy, Rebecca and Elizabeth Ann. Amy is a bit of a mystry - she is mentioned as their daughter in the 1851 UK census but can find no information about her in NZ. she certainly died prior to her mother. I wonder if shew actual died on the journey to NZ as I can find no record of her death in NZ.
Clive
Hi Clive
Might be worth a try ?
The National Archives (Kew) hold registers of passengers who died at sea (1854 - 1890). You can get to the link by googling
"Registers of Deaths at Sea + UK".
Lu
-
I am also looking for a copy of the passenger list for the Indian Queen arriving in Wellington, New Zealand in January 1857. In particular, I am interested in the names Glover and Walker.
I am also researching John and Rebecca Glover, in particular their daughter Ann Glover, and am trying to work out if she was on the Indian Queen as part of the 4 passengers. She married James Gray Ritchie and was one of the married daughters referred to in Rebecca's obituary. After searching for more info on the Indian Queen passenger list in 1857, I am thrilled to find this chat happening, and wondered if anyone has more info on the passenger list, or the children whom accompanied John and Rebecca on this voyage please?
-
Hello teetoe & welcome to Rootschat.......
I have not come across a passenger list but have you considered obtaining a death printout* for daughter Ann? This should include:
Where born
How long in New Zealand
Although the latter information may not be exact, it is likely the informant would have been aware of her country of birth.
OR better still, you could purchase a birth printout for a child whose birth was registered after October 1875. Information included:
Name and maiden surname
Age
Birthplace
*Cheaper and may contain more information than a certificate. Can also be e-mailed to you.
Added: Her age at marriage could indicate she was not born in New Zealand-
1871/8157 Ann Glover James Ritchie
Minniehaha.
-
Hello again,
I have not trawled through all of the thread so this could be a repetition:
https://www.familytreecircles.com/indian-queen-28081.html
Minniehaha.
-
Hi teatoe
Welcome to RootsChat. :)
I have previously provided info for this thread .... and will respond to your query shortly (as soon as I've been able to check over some additional information).
~ Lu
-
Thanks Minniehaha and Lucy. That very helpful link for the Indian Queen does show 6 in the John Glover family group but I was hoping to confirm that Ann was indeed part of that group - there is some ambiguity with Amy being shown as the first born in the England 1851 census - but am wondering actually if that is a mistype of Ann - in which case the numbers of 6 in the party should be correct. I've looked at the obit for Rebecca Cox who married John Glover and Ann is shown as the wife of James Ritchie in NZ so she did get there eventually. I may be nit-picking - but actually your ideas of getting the printed report of the death certificate for Ann is great advice.
I'm also researching Thurston if anyone else has been down that path - some confusing results on the BDM NZ site so will confirm with printed reports. Thanks.
-
Hello.
I have contact details for a pensioner by the name of THURSTON with Auckland and Taihape heritage.
You can PM me with the details you have and I will enquire if there is a match.
Alan.
-
Hello teetoe,
I think it might be best if you started a new topic for your Thurston research. It would then appear on the main board for everyone to see.
The Indian Queen topic is actually an old completed one so not as easily noticed.
Just a thought.... :)
Minniehaha.
-
Post deleted. Pressed the wrong button.... ::)
-
For babclive
As in my earlier message for Tiffaney, I have a list of promissory notes for the "Indian Queen" voyage (ex Archives NZ).
John GLOVER is listed as owing payment for his own fare and for those of FOUR other family members. There was also another entry for a further single fare owed by John GLOVER - this was listed on a sheet entitled "miscellaneous entries":
There was only one person named WALKER on the voyage - namely Thomas WALKER.
Lu
Hello again teetoe
I'm guessing that you have probably read through this thread in its entirety, but just for the sake of clarity (and in case others in future wish to know), the "list of passengers" for the "Indian Queen" voyage to NZ which arrived in early 1857, has been derived from a book held by Archives New Zealand recording promissory notes for the immigrants - these notes having been signed at Liverpool before commencement of the journey.
I transcribed that Archives NZ record back in 2009 and also viewed and added some other (rather skimpy) notes for the immigrants which I'd located at Wellington Library.
I didn't get around to publishing these findings - however some two years later, another transcribed list made its way to the familytreecircles web page - and this is essentially the same as I had recorded.
To the best of my knowledge, an "actual passenger list" for this voyage has never been found, and so it is, that we cannot say with certainty who accompanied the persons for whom we already have information.
But by combining the promissory notes data, newspaper accounts, obituaries, etc. etc. we can work backwards and "dig up further" clues. ;)
I have further information which I'll post shortly.
~ Lu
-
Hi again
I see there are a good number ( 30 + ) of "family trees" for John GLOVER / Rebecca COX, published on the ancestry.com website. ;D I don't wish to be disparaging of people's efforts, but for the most part, it seems that much of the information contained in these trees is repetitious - and where there "is guesswork" rather than "facts", the "information" multiplies to create an impression that "it must be true". ::) ;D
But enough of that. :)
Let's start with the "mysterious Amy" born circa 1850. Having looked at the actual 1851 census form, it seemed clear to me that the enumerator had made an alteration to the name of the infant daughter of Rebecca and John. Sure it could be construed as "A m y" ... but it could also be
"A n n y" or "A m m y". Couldn't find a birth for an Amy GLOVER, nor a death record in UK or NZ.
What I did find though was a record of what appears to be their firstborn, a daughter named "Emma" who was baptised on 1 September 1850, at the parish church in Wilmslow, Cheshire (- and isn't that where the couple were married ? ).
My take is that "Anny" or "Ammy" is in fact Emma ( - maybe she was known as "Emmy" ??).
Edited to add ... familysearch has this daughter listed (1851) as "A m o s ". ;D
Will try and attach link to baptism record. Link Added
Edit: Link no longer working - removed by me.
[Sometimes these links "time out" - if that happens you'll need to access it through the familysearch website. ]
Added: Sorry I've had to remove the links (they do 'time-out' ). You may already have access to familysearch but if not, then it is a simple process to sign up with them for a free account.
familysearch.org :
~ Lu
continues next post ->
-
GLOVER family - cont'd.
Should have mentioned in last post that the GLOVERs were at the time of the 1851 census (taken in mid-June), now residing in the Parish of Heaton Norris, Lancashire (which borders Cheshire).
The next useful record comes from Manchester Births and Baptisms :
Parish of Heaton Norris - three daughters of John and Rebecca GLOVER are baptised on 13 August 1854.
Ada GLOVER and Rebecca GLOVER may well have been twins ? Free BMD has separate birth entries for girls of those names - registered at Stockport in 1854.
The third entry in the baptism record is for none other than Ann GLOVER - but it comes with a note to say she was "born 7 March 1850". ??? Clearly 1850 is the wrong year (- it was the birth year of daughter Emma. And surely an infant Ann GLOVER would have shown up in that 1851 census ?) [ Note: I have seen several instances over the years where later children have been incorrectly given the birth dates of their deceased siblings - so mistakes did happen.]
You have the burial details for your Ann RITCHIE - (and if the informant to her death was accurate, then her birth seems to have been circa 1852 ? )
~ Lu
more to follow ->
-
GLOVER family - cont'd.
I've used a number of resources for obtaining records, but helpfully an image of the triple baptism of the GLOVER daughters is available for viewing at familysearch.org :
Edited to remove a link which wasn't working. Please go directly to the familysearch.org site, to access this.
I note that father John is recorded as a "waggoner" at this time and was residing at "# 18 York Street".
Sadly that address helped to confirm that a death record I'd found for an Emma GLOVER in 1854, was for John and Rebecca's firstborn.
Burial :
Emma GLOVER - died 6 April 1854 - aged 4 years - of # 18 York Street :
[Parents names not recorded. Source: Greater Manchester Burials : ]
~ Lu continues next ->
-
GLOVER family - cont'd.
Baptism : Heaton Norris Parish - Lancashire
Elizabeth Ann GLOVER - d/o John (occupation: carter) and Rebecca GLOVER of Heaton Lane
Baptised 11 May 1856 :
[Source: Manchester ENG. Baptisms @ ancestry ]
Edited to add - image of this baptism is also available at familysearch.org
-
GLOVER family - cont'd :
It would seem then that the children who accompanied John and Rebecca on the "Indian Queen" voyage were likely -
Ann / Rebecca / Ada * / and Elizabeth Ann :
* Have found no further information for Ada GLOVER. It is though very possible that she was one of the 20 children aboard the vessel, who died as a result of contracting measles. :(
~ Lu
-
Hi teetoe
Not sure if you have a "tree" on the ancestry website ??
Many of the GLOVER-related trees I viewed (and very repetitious they were - as mentioned earlier ;D), show a (NZ) marriage for an Ada Caroline GLOVER to a George Robert Reginald LLOYD in 1876.
The Ada born to John and Rebecca had only the one christian name.
(I checked further.)
The Ada Caroline GLOVER it appears was probably the girl aged 21, a governess, ex Middlesex ENG, who arrived at Lyttelton, Canterbury NZ, in January 1876 and married on 18 March in same year. She was the daughter of a William and Maria Mary GLOVER and was baptised at St Paul's, Hammersmith, Middlesex, on 27 August 1854. I found no births to this Ada C. and her husband in NZ in following years - nor were they on electoral rolls here either. Possibly returned to England ? Haven't followed up further than this. Just really wanted to point out that the "trees" @ ancestry seemingly have wrong "Ada GLOVER". ??? ;D
~ Lu
Edited - to enhance wording.