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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Wiltshire => Topic started by: 'Trish' on Saturday 11 July 09 17:03 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am looking for these two Watts women mentioned below:
1851 Census
WATTS, Elizabeth Head Unmarried F 23 1828 Governess Isle of Wight Hampshire
WATTS, Emma Head Unmarried F 27 1824 Governess WarminsterWiltshire
I also have in the Anne Watts Born 1830 Somerset -frome who married Walter Tye
What I am trying to find is the link between these three Watts women, other than Elizabeth and Emma appearing with my 4x Great grandfather James Watts on the 1851 Census as Governesses.
Can anyone find the parents of Elizabeth Watts , Emma Watts & Anne Watts, its to much of a coincidence that the same names keep cropping up - Watts! So therefore I can only presume there must be a connection. I am told Anne Watts was the cousin of Rebecca Watts (dau of James Watts mentioned above) and both lines are suppose to go back to Isaac Watts, The hymnwriter, but as yet have found no connection, the last person on my family tree is Edward Watts born C1700 as yet have not found his parents. I have been going around in circles, I am desperate for help!
Can anyone help me?
regards Trish
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IGI extracted has
Emma Watts c 22 Oct 1824 Warminster Wilts
Parents Isaac Watts/Elisabeth
there is also a son William Henry 1827
Suz
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Hello Trish,
Is James Watts the 5 yr old with Emma and Elizabeth in 1851?
You say that Anne Watts b 1830 is the cousin of James's daughter, Rebecca which seems very strange with the ages ???
I have looked at deaths and marriages for Wokingham in Free BMD - Emma seems to have married Edward Moore - they appear in 1861 census and her details fit. I can't see a marriage in Wokingham for Elizabeth- there is a death however but no age given.
As I recall, from an earlier thread, was it established that Isaac Watts did not marry?
There is no Anne in Somerset but there is Ann Watts b 1829 living in the workhouse in Frome with Jeremiah Watts, 40 yrs and some other chidren. They are marked as not born in county.
heywood
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It is difficult for you isn't it ???
I can't find those Watts from the workhouse in 1851 :(
The only Somerset born Ann Watts I can see in 1851 is born 1826 Frome and is working as a fur sewer in Shoreditch.
How you would connect Frome, Shoreditch and Suffolk where she married Walter Tye - I have no idea other than you buy the certificate to see what info is on there. :-\
Trish, whilst browsing looking for Tyes in Suffolk, I came across the earlier rootschat thread where I tried to find the Tye/Watts connection so not sure now where we are up to ::)
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Emma Watts birth is recorded in Dr Williams Library records, which indicates non-conformist origins. Her father was Isaac Watts and her mother was born Elizabeth Small, whose father was William.
Elizabeth Watts born 9 Jan 1827 at Yarmouth on the Isle of Wight is also recorded in Dr Williams Library, with the same parents.
William Henry's birth confirmed in Warminster, and there was a Kate born 9 Dec 1831 in Yarmouth, plus Fanny Small Watts in Andover 2 May 1833.
Can't help with Anne - sorry :(
Nell
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That is more positive, Nell :D
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Isaac Watts married Elizabeth Small in Warminster 8 Dec 1817. They married in the parish church of St Denys.
Nell
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IGI extracted has
Emma Watts c 22 Oct 1824 Warminster Wilts
Parents Isaac Watts/Elisabeth
there is also a son William Henry 1827
Suz
1851 HO107; Piece: 1587; Folio: 47; Page: 36
has a William H Watts b 1825 living in Greenwich. He is born Warminster and is a Linen Draper.He is married with a child.
1841 has a William Watts 15 yrs -a Private in Woolwich :-\
There are several Watts born Warminster -including an Isaac b 1822.
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Unfortunately there are an awful lots of Watts in Wiltshire, not just Warminster - I know, mine came from there too!! And some people were not too careful with the 's' - it got lost, rediscovered at random intervals before my lot decided to lose it altogether. Caused no end of confusion - someone was convinced they were Scottish.
Nell
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1851 HO107; Piece: 1768; Folio: 145; Page: 73 (as Walts)
Stratford Essex
Fanny Watts 18 yrs Draper's assistant b Andover
William H Watts was a Linen Draper
This is odd ???
1841 HO107; Piece 154; Book: 2;Folio: 43; Page: 15
Falmouth Cornwall
Isaac and Esther Watts with 3 daughters
Elizabeth 14 yrs
Kate 10 yrs
Fanny 8 yrs
not born in county
(same as children Nell found)
I can't read Isaac's occupation
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I have a diary entry:
'Lizzie Tye - high View Cottage, Monewden, Woodbridge
Brother at Ipswich - Edward Watts Tye (There are two Edward's one with Watts Tye, one without - brothers)
Her mother & Grandma Quick were cousins, so Rebecca Quick nee Watts (my 3x Great grandmother) was cousin to Ann Tye nee Watts, (but cannot find the connection from Ann Tye and Rebecca Quick) - descended from two brothers of Isaac Watts brothers''s
Rebecca Quick nee Watts was born 1833 Bracknell
Ann Tye nee Watts was born Wiltshire 1830 so could be cousins. Strange that a niece of Rebecca should call her Grandma Quick?
Rebecca's father was James Watts, Rebecca's brother also James age 5 with Emma Watts and Elizabeth Watts, because they gave such different areas of birth, I presumed that they were not sisters but could be relatives of my Watts who come from Romsey. It has always been presumed that we are descended from the brothers of Isaac Watts the hymnwriter, but there appears a surplus of Isaac Watts, three being in my family alone. There also has been quite a few items come down the line which belonged to Isaac Watts, which one I dont know! Muddled!
The diary entry - but even in this diary in the late 1800's they were presuming the same thing!
1871 Census High Street Hadleigh
TYE Walter Head M M 39 Grocer Draper Suffolk - Mendlesham
TYE Annie Wife M F 41 Miliner Somerset - Frome
TYE Edward W Son M 12 Scholar Suffolk - Hadleigh
TYE Elizabeth Dau F 7 Scholar Suffolk - Hadleigh
TYE Isac Son M 6 Scholar Suffolk - Hadleigh
TYE Edward J Son M 2 Suffolk - Hadleigh
CLARKE Sarah Servnt F 18 Gen Serv Suffolk - Hadleigh
So if this is so Ann Watts born 1830 might be the daughter of Edward Watts born 1762 Romsey. Edward born 1762 Romsey was a brother to Isaac Watts born 1765 Romsey who was James (snr) father.
This is tying me in knots, anyone good at untying knots!
regards Trish
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I just took a look at this census that I couldnt find earlier, however this Isaac Watts and his family living in Falmouth could be the brother of my James snr. James snr had two brothers one Isaac ch 14.3.1797 & John ch 11.7.1801 both in Romsey there was also two sisters Ann ch 25.12.1799 & Rebecca ch 3.5..1795. I was looking for my Isaac Watts and up popped Isaac Watts age 45 a dissenting Minister living at High street falmouth with his wife Esther and girls. Now they could be the cousins of my James Watts junior who had two Governesses Emma & Elizabeth?
How do I go about prooving or disproving this? Certainly the Isaac from Falmouth fits the Isaac from Romsey.
regards Trish
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Hi Trish,
what a puzzle :o
The first (and only) suggestion at the moment is for you to get the details of the marriage of Walter Tye and Anne Watts to see who her father is. Then at least you have a starting point.
You have two birthplaces for Anne- Wiltshire and Frome :-\
am still thinking ...
heywood ;)
Added:
I just found the Ann Watts daughter of Lewis and Hepzibah - whilst googling to see if there was anything about that family, I was directed to your another of your threads about this family where you already have that so not sure where you stand now on this.
I believe you definitely need that certificate to see whether you have the right Ann with parents.
Also re the diary entry- Lizzie Tye was in Hadleigh until at least 1901- was it her or the diarist who lived in Woodbridge?
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It was Lizzie who lived in Woodbridge, whilst her brother the young Edward was in Hadleigh, running the red dragon pub. What is with parents who name two children with the same name!
I have just looked up Hepzibah and it seems she was illigitimate, can anyone varify this for me?
regards Trish
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Hi Trish,
It was the dates I was concerned about re the diary and trying to clarify this has turned up some other queries.
1871 has the two Edwards- Edward W b 1859 and Edward J born 1869.
Free BMD has births for:
Edward Watts Tye 1859 and
Ernest James Tye 1869
with a death for Ernest James in 1874.
(no Edward J is shown anywhere).
So it looks as though they didn't have 2 sons named Edward. :-\
Edward Watts Tye married Mary Amelia Watts in Bath in 1885
1891 he is a grocer in Ipswich and in 1901 is a grocer in West Bergholt.
1901 RG13; Piece: 1750; Folio: 7; Page: 6
Queen Street Hadleigh
Annie, Isaac- a grocer and Lizzie.
so I wonder who kept the Red Dragon Pub? and when?
1911 looks as though:
Isaac has married and has a child and is perhaps still in Hadleigh. (Red Dragon??)
Annie and Elizabeth are together in Ipswich area
Edward and Mary Amelia are also in Ipswich area.
I have only looked in index so don't know whereabouts in the Ipswich area these people are.
You may have some or all of this as you have bits on other threads - if not it just adds to the muddle.
heywood
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Thanks for the info, I have the 1861 Census which shows two Edwards. Edward J was the Landlord of the Red Dragon Pub. I believe he is the one that married May Amelia Watts (not another Watts!).
1871 Census High Street Hadleigh
TYE Walter Head M M 39 Grocer Draper Suffolk - Mendlesham
TYE Annie Wife M F 41 Miliner Somerset - Frome
TYE Edward W Son M 12 Scholar Suffolk - Hadleigh
TYE Elizabeth Dau F 7 Scholar Suffolk - Hadleigh
TYE Isac Son M 6 Scholar Suffolk - Hadleigh
TYE Edward J Son M 2 Suffolk - Hadleigh
CLARKE Sarah Servnt F 18 Gen Serv Suffolk - Hadleigh
Regards Trish
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Yes that's the census I saw with the two Edwards but it is not supported by a birth and the only likeley birth is for Ernest James who then dies as a child.
Edward J Watts does not appear again in any other censuses.
Edward Watts Tye married Mary Amelia and from censuses was not keeping the pub in the censuses to 1901.
Free BMD has the birth and death of Ernest J and the marriage of Edward Watts to verify this.
Was the diary entry written at the current time or by a family researcher later?
I agree that there must be some evidence somewhere for the Red Dragon - could have been in between censuses or after 1901. Similarly with Lizzie in Woodbridge - the censuses don't show her there. :-\
heywood
PS I have looked on here http://suffolkvillages.com/suffolk-index.shtml but can't see a Red Dragon pub :-\
It's very frustrating ::)
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I have just found this: I believe Edward marrys his housekeeper!
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Regards Trish
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Hi trish,
not sure what you mean here - do you mean Edward J is the one who kept the pub?
This Edward J is the son of Edward and Emma Tye of Hoxne and in 1881(and 1891as you say) they are living at the Red Lion Inn. Edward J is listed as James in 1881.
1861 RG9; Piece: 1151; Folio: 62; Page: 3 has the family when Edward James in s4 yrs old.
This is not your family- Edward Tye married Emma Weavers in Lambeth in 1853- there does not seem to be a connection to Watts.
What do you think? Is the information you have info from a while ago?
heywood
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Hi No thought I had been lucky and just found that. Never mind, however I am muddled (easily done) is Edward Tye who married Emma Weavers my Edward? So Edward James is mine? regards Trish
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No ;)
As far as I know- you are after Ann Watts who marries Walter Tye - is that right?
They have children - Lizzie (who you refer to with the diary) and Edward Watts Tye (who marries Mary Amelia Watts from Warminster) (also in diary?) and Ernest James who dies in childhood plus Isaac - not sure if there were any others without checking.
I think you were thinking that Edward J in Hoxne was yours (from the error in names in census).
hope that's ok and clear ;)
heywood
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OK got that,yes your right Ann Watts who married Walter Tye and yes Edward Watts Tye who married Mary Amelia Watts. So Edward Tye who married Emma Weavers in Lambeth in 1853- was no relation? And it still doesnt explain why in the 1861 Census for Hadleigh there were two Edwards one being Edward W & the other Edward J. So if I am thinking right the census was wrong and should have been Edwin J not Edward J?
The Diary was written by James Watts (jnr) daughter Edith Julia Hall nee Watts. She must of known the 'Watts Tye' family as she writes about them, knowing exactly where in the UK and what jobs they were doing, but doesnt explain their connection only that Anne Tye nee Watts and Rebecca Quick nee Watts were cousins. I know that James Watts snr was Rebecca's father. Isnt it strange that Edith Hall refered to her Aunt Rebecca as Grandma Quick, maybe Rebecca liked being called Grandma?
I hope this helps regards Trish
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Hi Trish,
you're right as far as I know that Edward Tye, Hoxne (married Weavers) is nothing to do with the Tye Watts family.
It was probably just human error that Ernest J was written as Edward J in census and he died just a couple of years later.
Some women really fit the 'Granny' mould and perhaps Rebecca was one of them.
It would be good if the certificate for the marriage for Walter Tye and Ann Watts was purchased to get Ann's father's name. That may help.
heywood
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Ok thanks for all your help regards Pauline