RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: lucybella on Thursday 16 July 09 22:57 BST (UK)
-
Could some kind person please tell me what this medal card means, it is my granduncle James b 1892, was married 1912, but has his brother as next of kin.
Moderator comment: image removed. Only SMALL portions may be posted on RootsChat and then only to assist with deciphering handwriting etc.
-
HI,,IM SURE SOMEONE WILL EXPLAIN MORE,,BUT BASICALLY
HE WAS IN THE ROYAL INNISKILLING FUSILIERS
SERVED IN THE BALKANS
ENTITLED TO THE THREE MEDALS SHOWN,,VICTORY MEDAL,,BRITISH,AND 1915 STAR
AN EXPERT MAY KNOW WHAT THE OTHER NUMBERS RELATE TO
REGARDS,,MIKE,
-
YOU MAY BE INTERESTED TO READ THIS ,,AS IT WILL EXPLAIN HOW HE CAME TO FIGHT IN THE BALKANS{SALONIKA ETC}
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/British_10th_(Irish)_Division
http://www.inniskilling.com/
-
Thank you, gortonboy,
I thought he may have been killed in the first WW - but this doesn't seem to indicate that?
Originally I thought he was a seaman who went down on a ship in the war. Now I am thinking he may have survived WW1, and then joined the navy in WW2?
Thanks again
Lucy
-
Hi Lucy,
Have a look here http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=687845
Helles is in Turkey, ie Gallipolli
Regards Briant
-
Thanks gortonboy and briant for those links - much appreciated
There is another James Rodgers R Innis Fus killed 1918. I wonder how I can determine which is him?
There are no definite family details on the index of the war graves site.
Lucy
-
Actually, thank you Briant - that link checks out as him, it's the same reg no.
It's good to find it and confirm it at last.
I think it was the 2nd batt - would there be any possibility of a photo existing?
I know I cannot get war records on ancestry, as even if they are not among the 'burnt' ones, I think they have not got to the 'R' names yet.
Thanks so much to you both
Lucy
-
Discharged to Class "Z" Reserve in April 1919.
The armistice in 1918 was just that - an armistice which resulted in the cessation of hostilities; the peace treaty came long later. As such, the big demobilisation of late 1918/early 1919 placed most men into Class "Z" Reserve, bascially meaning that they could be called back to the colours if it looked like fighting was going to start again.
Clearly, this indicates that he did not die in the war
-
I think its an admin error Class Z were lads that were demobbed.
10076 LCpl Rodgers died of wounds at Gallipoli he was formerly 8550 Royal Irish Rifles so possibly a pre war regular?
Born in Shankhill, Enlisted Belfast 1st Battallion.
The other J Rodgers was 6th Batt Died in 1918 Born Seapatrick Co.Down Enlisted Banbridge.
Ady
-
Thanks all for the replies
I think he was a pre war regular soldier as I have a marriage cert for 1912 when he married a Catherine McGivern, stating his occupation as soldier.
But the address on the medal card is my grandfather Edward, who lived in the markets area of Belfast.
I am confused about dates on the card after 1915 if he died in 1915? I know he had another brother called Thomas also in the Inniskillen Fus at that time
I wish I could see some photos of the regiment - I wonder if any exist anywhere?
Lucy
-
The cards were filled out between 1919-1922 thats why there are different dates on the cards...if enquiries were made after that date they are also on it latest ive seen was 1979
Medals were sent out between those dates also.
http://www.inniskilling.com/
Have you tried here for info?
Ady
-
Ive also discovered my Great x 2 grandfather was in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. He was awarded the 15 Star, British War Medal and the Victory Cross, discgarged class Z, 28/12/19
Theatre of war: (2B) Balkans...is that 2nd Battalion?
His medal card says entry therein 11/07/15..does that mean when he went there?
His name was Francis Moran, I have photos of him but i would love to see any of the uniform etc. My gran remembers him showing her how to do turbans..
-
'15 Star' is shorthand for the 1914-1915 Star. Date he 'entered theatre' is when he went overseas. '2B' is the code for Gallipoli (Dardanelles) . These last two are to prove his entitlement to the 1914-1915 Star.
Class Z Reserve was a reserve of men who were discharged but were under an obligation to be recalled if fighting started again. The date is when he was transferred into Z Reserve.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp
http://www.1914-1918.net/reserve.htm
http://www.1914-1918.net/skins.htm
He may have been in the 1st Battalion or either the 5th or 6th. A 'skins’ expert on the Great War Forum may be able to tell you when his number was issued, and in which battalion. If not you will have to visit Kew and look at the actual medal roll using the references on the card.
Ken
-
Thank you all for the above,
much appreciated
Lucy
-
I have come across a form listing the effects of the deceased soldiers. James Joseph Rodgers is on the list and his meagre funds are devided among his brothers , and strangely not his wife Catherine. But a mystery sister in law Mary is mentioned.
I am having trouble attaching a copy of this, but if anyone can access it, I would be grateful to know what the writing in red says, above his brother Thomas name.
Thank you
-
Not the list but this may be useful
Will of James Joseph Rodgers 10076
http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/reels/sw/RodgersJ_E123533.pdf
There are two more James Rodgers wills, 70773 and 12664
http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/search/sw/index.jsp
-
Thank you. Yes that is the correct will, I already found it a while back. It was written in March and he was killed in June 15. It's a mystery to me how there is no mention of his wife Catherine McGivern but perhaps I am mistaken with that record.
It is such a terrible life to have lived - as he was born in 1892 and both parents died in 1904, leaving three younger boys who went into a home somewhere as orphans. All except my grandfather Edward joined the army as far as I know. I am certain of Thomas, who survivived WW1 and went missing from the Australian army in 1941, but I also think John joined and died in WW1. And possibly William who was an older brother of James.
Tough times...
I tried several times to attach the record I found, which was written around 1920 I think, but no luck.
Thanks again for your reply.
-
The address for Thomas on the will is the same as Catherine's when she married James.
-
The address for Thomas on the will is the same as Catherine's when she married James.
Thank you! So the marriage is correct, I am wondering if Catherine died between 1912 and 1915/20. Which would explain a sister in law Mary in the division of the 'effects' of James.
Can I ask where you found Catherine's address. I Amon Ancestry.co.uk but there is no image for the marriage.
Thank you again!
-
... I am having trouble attaching a copy of this, but if anyone can access it, I would be grateful to know what the writing in red says, above his brother Thomas name.
Thank you
The words in red above 'Thomas' look like 'Bro Part Leg.', which on the basis of other examples on neighbouring pages, I'm interpreting as 'Brother, Part Legatee'.
I could be wrong, but my reading of this entry in the Register is that his effects were destined to be divided equally between brothers Thomas and John, in line with the will, however, the actual distribution of money was half of the overall amount to brother Thomas, then a few months later the other half was divided equally three ways between brothers Thomas and Edward and the 'mystery' sister-in-law Mary. The implication being that brother John was deceased.
-
Marriage
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1912/09927/5609045.pdf
Prove your not a robot and sign in, tick the small box. It's free
-
Are the folk you mention the children of William Rodgers and Mary Jane Myers who m. 1880, shown below in 1901?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Cromac/Market_Street/970290/
As regards a possible in-law Mary, the only other sons I can see who aren't shown in that census return were Isaac and 2 previous Johns, all of whom died early. James married Catherine McGivern, presumably Edward and Thomas are ruled out as you know what happened to them, so that leaves William (b. 1885) and John #3 (b. 1900).
Is there any family lore about a mixed marriage? Might be nothing, but the reason I ask is that a 17 year old bachelor John Rodgers of 23 Howard Street South died in a Belfast hospital in 1917, note that address:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05210/4440535.pdf
A William Rodgers and Mary Johnston got married in May Street Presbyterian Church Belfast in July 1915...
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09817/5564731.pdf
... shortly after a couple with the same names had a daughter Agnes Rodgers - note the address, 23 Howard Street South:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1915/01370/1564782.pdf
A soldier William Rodgers of 10 Bn. Royal Irish Rifles was killed on 21 March 1918, his will left his effects to his wife Mary of 23 Howard Street South:
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1587623/rodgers,-william/
http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/reels/sw/1918_22/RodgersW_E764906.pdf
-
... So the marriage is correct, I am wondering if Catherine died between 1912 and 1915/20. Which would explain a sister in law Mary in the division of the 'effects' of James ...
Catherine (McGivern) Rodgers went on to marry a James Carr in 1916:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1916/09776/5548540.pdf
-
... shortly after a couple with the same names had a daughter Agnes Rodgers - note the address, 23 Howard Street South:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1915/01370/1564782.pdf
Daughter Agnes of that couple died in January 1918:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1918/05197/4435888.pdf
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6159.42808
And Mary (Johnston) Rodgers remarried in 1920, husband Thomas Montgomery.
-
Sinann and gaffy, I can't thank you both enough!
In one short morning you have sorted out so much that I have been wondering about for so long.
Yes, it is the family of William Rodgers and Mary Jane Myers. How you found those births so quickly amazes me, because it took me weeks back in 2010 searching through many records.. When both parents died in 1904 three of the youngest were put into care of the Catholic Church. I have never been able to find out where Edward, Thomas and John spent their early years.
The story in my mind was that three of grandfather Edward's brothers were lost in the war. It seems that was correct ; William, James and Thomas .
Sadly, there seems no doubt that the 17 yr old who died at Lisburn Rd was indeed my grand uncle John. I doubt he joined the army at any stage.
I always heard that William had become a Protestant, and that there were cousins who were Protestants. I am wondering if there were any other children apart from poor Agnes who died so young. It is likely there may be.
I have spent a lot of time in past years looking for Thomas, who disappeared from the Australian Army Hay NSW in 1941. I have now accepted that I will never find out.
It is so good to have the information I got this morning. I am very thankful to you both.
-
The children you have are
William Joseph
James
Edward
Thomas
John
There is also another Thomas born 1881
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02832/2038420.pdf
died 1883
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06387/4833842.pdf
Parents married 1880, Thomas born 1881 and William 1885 so there could be another child in between.
-
Just heading out for the night, but posting the following speculation in case it generates leads... Is the following link possibly William Rodgers and Mary Johnston pre their marriage, in the 1911 census (ie. did they get married just before he went off to war)?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Windsor_Ward/Charlotte_Street__Little/168445/
Look at this birth (note parents and address):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01563/1631007.pdf
And note this 1911 Charlotte Street census entry, which fits Mary Johnston's background (father Thomas for the shown children)...
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Windsor_Ward/Charlotte_Street__Little/168453/
-
Just heading out for the night, but posting the following speculation in case it generates leads... Is the following link possibly William Rodgers and Mary Johnston pre their marriage, in the 1911 census (ie. did they get married just before he went off to war)?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Windsor_Ward/Charlotte_Street__Little/168445/
...
Further to the above census return (note William and Mary's religion in it), here is daughter Elizabeth Rodger's birth registration:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01658/1661403.pdf
The Johnstons in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Windsor_Ward/Charlotte_Street/975125/
Was Mary's first child - daughter Mary - registered as Johnston rather than Rodgers?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01743/1688354.pdf
Added: A son James Rodgers was born to the couple in November 1912 (note the Charlotte Street Little address, which ties back to the 1911 census return for William and Mary):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01475/1600991.pdf
What looks like a possible death for James in 1914, the age is nearly right, the address was 21 Howard Street South which is so close to what has been posted previously (maybe just a mistake in house number?):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1914/05305/4475608.pdf
BTW, in the death registration for Agnes Rodgers who died in January 1918 at 23 Howard Street South (reply #23), the informant was an Agnes Cardwell of 15 Little Charlotte Street, so more circumstantial linkages between Charlotte Street Little and Howard Street South to support the story (Agnes maybe just a family friend?).
-
An infant Agnes Cardwell of 21 Little Charlotte St. died 1937-
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=4464.5013
James Howard died 1914- 21 Howard St. South-
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7627.29062
Agnes Howard died 1918- 23 Howard St.-
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6159.42808
Directories and valuation records might confirm if family merely changed houses along the same street (wasn't uncommon).
-
As was sometimes the case, final news about a loved one only came later, the following entry in the 'Rank And File Casualties' column of the Belfast Northern Whig appeared on 29 May 1918 and was listed under the 'Missing' section:
RODGERS.- Rifleman Wm. Rodgers, R.I.R, 23, Howard Street South, Belfast.
Added: He is also listed in the following link (servicemen whose pictures appeared in the Belfast Evening Telegraph - in this case June 2018), contact details are provided to obtain the picture of him if you wish:
https://sites.google.com/site/greatwarbelfast/home/service-personnel-pictures-list
-
Back to James Rodgers, this entry is from the 'Rank And File' column in the Northern Whig of 6 July 1915:
Mrs. Rodgers, of 17, Middlepath Street, Belfast, has been notified that her husband, Lance-Corporal James J. Rodgers, 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, was killed in action at the Dardanelles on June 6. Deceased had five years' service, and came from India to Rugby with his battalion.
He also appears in the same link previously posted above of servicemen whose pictures appeared in the Belfast Evening Telegraph.
-
It is not possible to thank you enough Gaffy Sinann and Aghadowey. This is valuable family history and the generation before me are passed on now. Like all people, when younger one doesn't really listen to family history but as time goes on it is very precious. And important that we remember.
I never dreamt there would be photographs of these men. I sometimes imagined that they were all in the Iniskilling Fusiliers and promised myself a trip to Eniskillen to glean what I could. Now it seems I can access photos by request on the link you have shown me. Even the missing Thomas may be included as I see a possibility for him there too!
It's good (although so very sad) to have as much information as possible about their lives and the lives of their descendants. My head is spinning with all the new information!
Thank you all again
Lucy
-
Hello,
I have used the link above and the email as given to try to obtain photographs, but alas to no avail!
I realise it is holiday time, or I may not actually have the correct email , as I have emailed twice now with no reply.
I was wondering if there is another way I could get the photographs, perhaps directly from the newspaper, if it is still in existence?
Grateful for any advice.
Thank you
-
Lucy, I have pm'ed you regarding an alternative source for at least one of the two Rodgers newspaper photos...
-
Thank you all very much - I am happy to say I have now got photographs of both James and William.