RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: fallingonabruise on Tuesday 04 August 09 03:55 BST (UK)
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I got the birth cert for my great grandad, Grenville Fairclough Lloyd, b 1852,
and thought his fathers occp. was gen/labourer,
but now , having looked at it properly I realize it says Gentleman.
This father, John Ballard Lloyd, does not appear on any of censuses with his family, and the only reference i can find is a baptism in 1807 with his father being Benjamin Lloyd in Worcester.(if this is him)
Anyway this 'gentleman' has added to the mystery because Lavinia Ann (nee Cheatham) , his wife is classed as an annuitant in the 1851 census.
I have just been checking out her address at this time,28 Trafalgar square , mile end old town ,London,
and all the neighours seem quite well off, lots of them with a couple of servants.
I can't find any marriage for them either.
one of his other sons had Ballard in his name too
another son who was a travelling herbalist , went to America selling miracle cures 'Lloyds Pink Pills'
so,
who was John Ballard Lloyd and where was he and where was the money coming from?,
are the 'Ballard ' and 'Fairclough' names important.
any ideas?
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Here's another possibility:
John Ballard Lloyd
Baptised 31 Aug 1819 Christ Church Hunter Street Liverpool
Father - Benjamin Lloyd
Mother - Elizabeth
There is a death registered in Stepney in 1855 for Frederick John Ballard Lloyd - is that the son that you mentioned ?
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Some items from the newspapers re John Ballard Lloyd :
1836 - manager, General Cabriolet Conveyance Company ( share offer August 1836)
1848 - a number of references to the distressing case of John Ballard Lloyd and various donations recorded for his relief. One report says that he is about to emigrate
1853 - in prison for insolvency. Had been promoter of "The City of London Brewing and Malting Company" and formerly a commercial traveller
1855 - in trouble for throwing two oranges at Commissioner Evans in the bankruptcy court. Evans was apparently his godfather
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If you do an advanced search in the Gazette for the exact phrase John Ballard Lloyd you'll find a couple of 1853 items http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search
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Brilliant Shaun thank you ! ;D
yes Frederick is his son,
In that link one of Johns addresses is 8 Leslie st, which is where Grenville was born.
How would I be able to see the newspaper items?
I wonder what it meant by distressing case and why he was given donations?
and why was he throwing oranges ?!!!
ooo this is so exciting !!! ;D
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You sure do have interesting ancestors ;) If I was producer on WDYTYA and could waive the 'celeb' requirement, I'd have you on there like a shot ;D
In respect of John Ballard Lloyd, someone posted previously this entry as a potential christening for him:
JOHN BALLARD LLOYD Christening: 22 DEC 1807 St Clement, Worcester, Worcester (father Benjamin and mother Elizabeth)
You have from Shaun the links for early 1850s with him by now showing as a travelling salesman. I found this entry in 1851, which apart from him showing as unmarried fits perfectly:
John Loyed, lodger, 42, commercial traveller b. Worcester, St Clement. He is living at 20 Ernest Street, Mile End Old Town Lower (Class: HO107; Piece: 1553; Folio: 767; Page: 29)
Monica :)
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From Shaun's 1836 reference, some background on the General Cabriolet Conveyance Company:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Omnibuses_and_Cabs.djvu/245
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Omnibuses_and_Cabs/Part_II/Chapter_III - section 225 in particular.
Not much on The City of London Brewing and Malting Company except a TNA ref:
Piece details BT 41/149/846 - Board of Trade: Companies Registration Office: Files of Joint Stock Companies Registered under the 1844 and 1856 Acts
Monica
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just a thought with the 2 baptism records,
I wonder if the 1807 one died and they had a second john ballard lloyd in 1819? because both records have the same parents,
johns wife was born 1822 so the 1819 one seems a better fit ???
I'm just making pizzas at the minute but will write up a bit out of thosee newspaper cuttings when I've done,
sounds like poor John was robbed of a lot af money (£1.200, how much would that be worth nowdays ?)
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Don't let the pizzas burn as I usually do :-[ ;D
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£1,200 from 1850 money would be worth £70,236.00 today :o
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency/default0.asp#mid
Monica
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Flipping nora ! I think I'd have been chucking oranges too !
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This looks to be 'Godfather Commissioner Evans' I think, from the refs I have seen in respect of his first name, in 1851: Class: HO107; Piece: 1700; Folio: 517 Other than something on a christening entry, not sure how this can be verified.
Monica
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where do i put those ref numbers Monica ??
I've just spent ages typing out this report so you better read it !!! ;D
its the 1848 one
A valuable reversionary Interest- Distressing Case
JB lloyd was charged on thursday with sending threatening letters and menaces trying to obtain from a Mr Fox the sum of £20 .
Mr Lloyd read a statement in defense of his conduct.At the decease of his mother he was to be entitled to the reversionary interest of £1,200 of which he had been plundered by a forgery. Falling into difficulties and requiring money he applied to his guardian and it was with the utmost astonishment he was told by that person that it had been disposed of to a Mr Collins.
He called upon Mr Fox and having seen the deed at once declared his signature to be a forgery.
However an offer was made of £100 if he would sign a 2nd document confirming the first, which at last he consented to do as he could not bear to see his wife and children starving.
He was paid in bills but a part of them had not been taken up and he was now in the utmost distress.
Mr Fox need not fear the slightest violence at his hands, as he had no intention of injuring anyone.
all he was most anxious to do was to either obtain any kind of a situation or get a little money that he might set up in some small business, and thus be enabled to preserve his family from starvation.
Alderman Johnson said that the document produced, being legal ones, they could take no notice of them,
but it was thier duty to see that peace was preserved, and therefore he must find good bail for his future behaviour.
Mr Lloyd;I cannot find bail;but I pledge you my word of honour that I will not injure a mortal man breathing,
Alderman Johnson:I will do this, I will take your word as you have pledged it and hope that your feelings, which , for a personof your education, must be most acute, will be softened down in a few days and produce a calmer state of mind.
In the meantime, the warrent will be suspended for one month.
Alderman Johnson added, that if he could be of any service to Mr Lloyd in any way he would be glad,
Mr Lloyd said if he could even get a porters situation of 14s or 15s per week he should feel proud and happy to take it, and he would do his duty with the utmost diligence-
Alderman Johnson said , that not being in business he could not give him one of any kind; if he had been , Mr Lloyd should be at once have it. However, if he could be of service to him in the shape of doing anything for the benefit of himself and family, he (Ald.J) would do all in his power to forward his views.
It was stated that the prisoner and his family were living in a back room, with scarcely any furniture; but the wife and children, and in fact everything were as neat and clean as possible.
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The one b. 1807 St. Clements Worcester does seem to have lived; he is in the St. John Hill workhouse in 1871 (Wandsworth and Clapham Union, located in Battersea. Aged 63, a baker, married.
(There is a John Lloyd, no middle name, d. 1877 aged 70 in Wandsworth district on freebmd)
Back to the Josiah Wilson link:
In 1859 a Louisa, second daughter of the late James Collins, died at the house of her brother in law, Josiah Wilson, of Stamford Hill.
Sure enough, there is also a marriage in 1802 for Benjamin Lloyd and Elizabeth Collins at St. Michael, Worcester.
Also look at The Times, Saturday, Nov 11, 1837; pg. 4; Issue 16571;
Collins (Charles Frederick Collins, youngest son of James) v. Wilson (presumably Josiah?)
There seems to have been some wrangling over this will from the beginning.
The details can be found in the Law Report of 1838 at http://books.google.com
The seven children were: James, Henry, Mary Anne, Louisa, Eliza, Amelia, and Charles Frederick; but Eliza is listed in 1831 as "Eliza Collins" while Amelia is listed under her married name, so I'm not convinced she's the same as the Elizabeth who married in 1802 (or indeed that the 1802 marriage is the right oe).
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jorose, sorry I haven't read your post yet, I just want to past this news report i've spent another age typing , ;D
Outrage on the Commissioner-
Between 12 and 1 o'clock a great sensation was created in the court, in consequence of an extraordinary outrage by a respectably dressed man, who went into the court, and almost imediatley uttered some words in an incoherent manner, and did instantly threw 2 oranges at his honour,but fortunatly, did not do any injury.
The man was at once secured and taken before Alderman Copeland at Guildhall, charged with assulting MrCommissioner Evans.
Mr Robert Johnson deposed that he was usher to the commissioner, and that about half past twelve he saw the prisoner (John Ballard Lloyd) in the body of the court, and saw him throw 2 oranges at the commissioner.
Prisoner had frequently written threatning letters to the commissioner attempting to extort money.
The messenger of the court corroborated the statement of Mr Johnson.
Mr Commissioner Evans said the oranges fell by his side. He could not say wether they touched him or no.He was godfather to the prisoner, and had known his parents well. The prisoner then produced a written statement, which he began to read, but as it contained a string of libellious expressions upon the commissioners character, his worship refused to hear it.
Alderman Copeland said he found , upon referring to the record, that it was not the first time the prisoner had beenbrought up for an assult of the same description.
He called upon him to find 2 sureties of £100 each, and himself £200, to keep the peace for 12 months.
Prisoner; You may as well ask the stones in the road to find bail, as ask me attempt to get it; but (pointing to Commissioner Evans) let the blood of my children rest upon that mans head .
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sorry jorose, you have lost me now ???
and the link just shows a page of books?
is it something to do with monicas ref numbers because I have no idea how to look them up ;D
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The reference numbers for looking up entries on the censuses, regarding the one I posted for 1851:
HO107; Piece: 1700; Folio: 517; Page: 16
If you go to the general search screen for the 1851 census. Below the section for 'Family Members', there is a section headed up 'Census'. Below that are some boxes:
HO107 [refers to 1851 census] Piece [input 1700] Folio [input 517] Page [input 16]
This will take you to the entry for a Joshua Evans, 69, b. Dublin Ireland - Commissioner of Bankruptcy
Monica :)
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Joshua Evans ( the godfather) was a practising barrister before he was appointed Commissioner in Bankruptcy. He died in 1864.
The Liverpool Mercury of February 11 1820 has a law report from the Court of Kings Bench (concerning John Cam Hobhouse) in which Mr Joshua Evans, formerly of Liverpool moves a writ of habeas corpus.
This places Joshua Evans in Liverpool before 1820 - and ties in nicely with that 1819 baptism record for John Ballard Lloyd.
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The thing that sticks at the back of my mind Shaun were those newspaper reports you posted with John B LLoyd as manager at the General Cabriolet Conveyance Company in 1836. Would a 17yr old hold this position? The issue is, we don't have anything as yet to help with identifying John except the two birth entries with a 12 yr gap :-\ But then from that 1838 newspaper entry, we have John having to apply to his Guardian for release of funds - not sure of the terminology of those times. Is the term guardian like a trustee of an estate or does this imply a custodian of a younger person's interests?
The only potential entries we have found so far for John is potentially that 1851 census entry (right birth place, c. 1807 birth, likely occupation of commercial traveller - except he shows as unmarried ???). Also, the 1871 census entry that Jorose found at the Poorhouse in Battersea. We need something to be able to identify him properly.
Maybe one way forward that is verifyable is to follow up on a poor relief application/admission for the John Lloyd who shows as an inmate at the Wandsworth and Clapham Union Workhouse in 1871. I know that records for admissions for here are only available at the London Metropolitan Archives. If they can be found, it would help to either confirm or eliminate the John B Lloyd b. 1807 to Benjamin and Elizabeth Collins.
Monica
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Would a 17yr old hold this position?
Come to that we don't know how old he was when he was baptised ...or whether the transcription is accurate
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Just a thought - might the JBL baptised Worcester 1807 and the JBL baptised Liverpool 1819 be one and the same? It does look that way. Perhaps Benjamin and Elizabeth organised a second baptism for the 12 year old JBL in order to secure the patronage of the up and coming barrister Joshua Evans?
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Guildhall, 17 june 1848
Yesterday Mr Alderman Johnson begged to acknowledge through the newspapers,
the receipt of one soveriegn from 'A Lady', for the relief of John Ballard Lloyd,
son of a magistrate, who with his wife and 2 children , has been reduced to complete destitution, and a report of which appeared in our impression about a fortnight back
Guildhall 21 june 1848
Alderman Johnson begged to acknowledge a contribution of 51 (?) from Mr Penn Allen for the relief of John Ballard Lloyd,
whose distressing case was mentioned in our paper about 3 weeks ago.
He is now about to emigrate.
so he was the son of a magistrate ?
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31 dec 1855 -Report in the Liverpool Mercury about the 'oranges ' incident, says that John was an accountant.
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That sounds promising :D
John seems to have had a number of occupations, not surprising given his circumstances. I don't know how many BMD certs you have looked at for the family. Have you seen the one for wife Lavinia's death - just curious what his children showed perhaps on marriage certs for their father.
Shaun, anything on your resources for this Benjamin Lloyd, magistrate in the Liverpool area c. 1819?
Monica
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anything on your resources for this Benjamin Lloyd, magistrate in the Liverpool area c. 1819
Nothing in the 1814 or 1825 Gore's Directories as far as I can see.
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Nothing for Benjamin in 1821 Gore's either, though there is an Elizabeth Lloyd, a teacher, at 50 Grafton Street
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Thanks for checking Shaun :) Frustrating at the moment. Lots of small pieces of the puzzle now...how to put it together though :-\
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That sounds promising :D
John seems to have had a number of occupations, not surprising given his circumstances. I don't know how many BMD certs you have looked at for the family. Have you seen the one for wife Lavinia's death - just curious what his children showed perhaps on marriage certs for their father
Monica
all i have is Grenvilles birth, lack of funds at the momment so won't be allowed anymore yet :'(
just to go off at a slight tangent this is the history of one of John's sons Walter Henry Lloyd and his condoms...
http://www.history.inportsmouth.co.uk/events/lloyds.htm
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Fascinating read :) Is this Lloyds the Chemist as we have today although I see in the article that Lloyds ceased trading in 2007...or did it get sold on?
Monica
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f-o-a-b: Are you in contact with Pete Smee?
http://www.thesmeefamily.com/search-www.php?mylastname=LLOYD&lnqualify=equals&mybool=AND&tree=Databaseinfo
http://findour.name/All/findex18.htm
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Fascinating read :) Is this Lloyds the Chemist as we have today although I see in the article that Lloyds ceased trading in 2007...or did it get sold on?
Monica
as far as I can tell they are not connected,
which is a shame, I could have asked for a family discount card ! ;D
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f-o-a-b: Are you in contact with Pete Smee?
http://www.thesmeefamily.com/search-www.php?mylastname=LLOYD&lnqualify=equals&mybool=AND&tree=Databaseinfo
http://findour.name/All/findex18.htm
I did join his site thing but have never messaged him, might be worth a try, I wonder if he has any certificates for the family....
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one last post before bed !!!
whats going on here ?
Referring to the case of John Ballard Lloyd,
mr Alderman Johnson said, that since he had mentioned the matter before he had recieved a second letter from a person representing herself to be his lawful wife,
and making statements to his predudice.
He had given Mr Lloyd every oppertunity of making any explanation to excupate himself,
and as he had not taken the trouble to give such satifactory explanation,
he should persist in the course he had already indicated,
of returning the subscriptions where the parties were known,
and where they were not known, upon those annonymous subscribers making application to him, thier money would be returned.
hmmmmm ???
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::) And that explains why we can't find the marriage!
I bet you it doesn't state what the name of the wronged wife was :'(
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so does it mean he had a wife as well as Lavinia?,
or was the alderman just bogged off because they were not legally married, and if they weren't married, why ?
the plot thickens ;D
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It reads to me from mr Alderman Johnson said, that since he had mentioned the matter before he had recieved a second letter from a person representing herself to be his lawful wife, that John B was already married before he got together with Lavinia circa early 1840s given the birth of their first child (1842). So, this may mean that John B is one of the John Lloyds showing in the 1841 census with a wife?
It does explain why there is no marriage showing for them if John B was already legally married before they got together.
Eight children showing to Lavinia in the censuses born between 1842 - 63. I suppose there is always the question mark over whether they were all John B's? Without checking out every birth cert., hard to say.
Monica :)
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well Grenville was the fifth in 1852, and JBL was named on that,
and they were together since about 1840ish, so its the last 3 we need to find out.
You think there would be some info floating about for his father with him being a magistrate,
how do you find wills ?
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I did think about Wills perhaps for both parents assuming we have the correct b, Birth and marriage, Benjamin and Elizabeth (Collins).
From that report of the 1848 case that you posted: At the decease of his mother he was to be entitled to the reversionary interest of £1,200 with the implication of Wills & Testaments.
This is where my knowledge of English resources falls down :P, hopefully someone here can point the way!
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I think what it means is that someone (presumably his father) left a Will under which £1200 was set aside to provide an income for his mother during her lifetime, and on her death that capital (or the income from it) would revert to JBL.
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I don't know where that stuff on Josiah Wilson fits in to all of this but (per Google Books) Charles Frederick Collins was articled to a solicitor named John Fox ... I wonder if that's the "Mr Fox" who was threatened by JBL?
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Interesting find Shaun :)
These are the children showing on IGI to a James Collins and Cecilia Catherine Josophina - all in Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster, London.
1. ELIZABETH COLLINS Christening: 30 JUL 1799
2. CAROLINE COLLINS Christening: 26 NOV 1801
3. SUSANNA COLLINS Christening: 20 MAY 1803
4. JOHN MUSGRAVE COLLINS Christening: 02 SEP 1804
5. BENJAMIN COLLINS Christening: 23 FEB 1808
6. HENRY GEORGE COLLINS Christening: 23 FEB 1808
7. CHARLES FREDERICK COLLINS Christening: 23 FEB 1808
Monica
Added: Amelia daughter's details (mother's names in a different order): AMELIA LOUISA COLLINS - Christening: 13 JAN 1812
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f-o-a-b: Are you in contact with Pete Smee?
http://www.thesmeefamily.com/search-www.php?mylastname=LLOYD&lnqualify=equals&mybool=AND&tree=Databaseinfo
http://findour.name/All/findex18.htm
I did join his site thing but have never messaged him, might be worth a try, I wonder if he has any certificates for the family....
You Rang?
The only certificate I have is the Marriage certificate for Walter Henry Lloyd at St Peter Stepney in 1884, Walter describes his own and his Father's occupation as Traveller.
Witnesses were F A Hobbs and CJ Cheatham the latter is presumably a relative of Lavinia's?
Walter married my 2nd Cousin, 3 times removed so I am not "au fait" with the family.
Walter is in the 1891 PC as a travelling herbalist and in 1901 as a Herbalist. 6 kids but I haven't tracked them beyong 1901
Pete
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Hi Pete
Interesting witness name with the CJ Cheatham, we have absolutely nothing on Lavinia apart from census entries. I'll see if we can find anything on CJC in the censuses. I don't supposed there was anything on him/her other than the name?
Monica
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Closest I can see for a CJC, from this FreeBMD entry:
Births 3rd Qrt 1863
Charles James CHEATHAM Mile End 1c 511
Possibly this is his family in 1871 in Shoreditch:
Francis G Cheatham 36, clerk and author, b. Stepney, Middlesex
Georgina L Cheatham 31, b. Plymouth, Devon
Annie E Cheatham 11, b. Whitechapel, Middlesex
Charles J Cheatham 7, b. Stepney, Middlesex
James H Cheatham 46, brother, packing case maker
RG10; Piece: 464; Folio: 17; Page: 28
Monica
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That ties in nicely with a public tree on Ancestry which shows Francis Geo Cheatham 1835 as one of Lavinia Lloyd's two brothers ( the other being James William 1826). Parents Thomas Cheatham 1789 and Elizabeth 1794. They are in the 1841 census at HO107/697/ 1/29/ 21 which also shows an Elizabeth Cheatham aged 16.
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So might well be her family :D
I think father has been mis transcribed for 1841, original image looks like Jas (a water bailiff I think by occupation - 1851 he shows as Tide xxxx)
And then in 1851 in Mile End Old Town Upper, Stepney:
Jas Cheatham 62
Elizh Cheatham 57
Elizh M Cheatham 26
Jas Wm Cheatham 24
Chas H Cheatham 22
Frank Geo Cheatham 16
HO107; Piece: 1552; Folio: 905; Page: 31
Monica
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That 1851 occupation for Cheatham pere looks like "tide sawyer" or "tide lawyer" . What can it be?
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http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SOM/Minehead/BapMi1820.html
Elizabeth Cheatham senior was from Minehead per the 1851. Genuki has this Minehead baptism:
28 Jan 1823 Benjamin Forrest son of James & Elizabeth Cheatham of Saint Dunstan Stepney London, Tide-Waiter ?
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Tidewaiter - Customhouse officer who secured payment of duty from merchant vessels coming in to port
www.scotsfamily.com/occupations.htm
Would fit with him showing as bailiff (?very faint in 1841)
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There is an Ancestry tree for the line of James Cheatham and Elizabeth Forrest. Can't see any mention of Lavinia to them. First born showing is the one that you have Shaun, Benjamin Forrest Cheatham in 1823. Marriage shows on 1820 25 Jun, St Augustine the Less, Bristol.
Which tree did you see an entry for Lavinia with brothers Shaun?
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I can see the tree now Shaun. I think someone is getting lines mixed up perhaps? The info for this tree is taken from that 1841 census entry with father showing as Thomas (i.e as indexed by Ancestry).
Monica
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From searches the other day, I thought this was likely to be Lavinia in 1841:
Lavinee Cheater, 19, in Islington - HO107; Piece 665; Book: 9;Folio: 32; Page: 24
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Have found Lavinia's baptism. Transcribing.......
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help I'm getting lost here !! ;D
re 1851
Lavinia was married by then with 4 children so can't be her with the cheathams,
if i'm on the right track are we saying she was on as elizabeth ?
hellllllppp !! information overload !! ;D
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Baptism 20 May 1821 St George in the East, Stepney
Lavinia Ann Cheatham born 25/04/1821
Father James, Tide Waiter, Cobourg Street
Mother Elizabeth
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You clever, clever man :-*
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brilliant !!!!!!!
runs around waving arms in the air !!!
I'm still lost though ;D
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are we saying she was on as elizabeth
Elizabeth Mary (born 20 Jan 1825 per the IGI) was Lavinia's younger sister
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Don't be :) Copy and pasting from what we already have:
James Cheatham = Elizabeth Forrest on 1820 25 Jun, St Augustine the Less, Bristol.
Children:
1. Lavinia Ann Cheatham born 25/04/1821
2. 28 Jan 1823 Benjamin Forrest son of James & Elizabeth Cheatham of Saint Dunstan Stepney London, Tide-Waiter
3. ELIZABETH MARY CHEATHAM Christening: 07 MAR 1825 Saint Dunstan, Stepney
4. JAMES WILLIAM CHEATHAM Christening: 22 MAR 1827 Saint Dunstan, Stepney
5. CHARLES HENRY CHEATHAM Christening: 30 SEP 1828 Saint Dunstan, Stepney
6. LOUISA MATILDA CHEATHAM Christening: 30 OCT 1831 Saint Dunstan, Stepney
7. Francis George Cheatham born c. 1834/5
Monica
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Thanks for that Monica, ;D
I can't sudy it now , have to go get hay for my horses, >:(
back soon !!!!!!!! ;D
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From the tree on Ancestry
Father James Cheatham died aged 78, June (2nd Qrt?) 1867 at Mile End, mother Elizabeth not shown except between 1861-71, maybe this enty:
Deaths Dec 1869
Cheatham Elizabeth, 75, St. Geo. East 1c 371
Go and take care of the horses!
Monica
Added: Have a look at the tree on Ancestry, searching for parents 'James Cheatham and Elizabeth Forrest'. Elizabeth's mother looks to have been a Lavinia Parratt and so your Lavinia called after her maternal grandmother :) Quite a lot going back on her line. Elizabeth looks to have been one of 16 children :o - should keep you busy!
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Just looking at the FreeBMD entry for the birth of first born to JBL and Lavinia - all seems clear when you know what you are looking for!
Births Dec 1842
Lloyd Lavinia Anne F*st - has to be Forrest! Stepney 2 478
Monica
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We are on a bit of a roll today... all thanks to Pete Smee and that marriage witness! Thanks Pete!
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I was just thinking that Shaun :) Proves how any small clue from a BMD can open the doors!
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Closest I can see for a CJC, from this FreeBMD entry:
Births 3rd Qrt 1863
Charles James CHEATHAM Mile End 1c 511
Possibly this is his family in 1871 in Shoreditch:
Francis G Cheatham 36, clerk and author, b. Stepney, Middlesex
Georgina L Cheatham 31, b. Plymouth, Devon
Annie E Cheatham 11, b. Whitechapel, Middlesex
Charles J Cheatham 7, b. Stepney, Middlesex
James H Cheatham 46, brother, packing case maker
RG10; Piece: 464; Folio: 17; Page: 28
Monica
That Brother doesn't align well with the rest of the Cheatham/Forrest family?
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Presumably that's James W ?
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But it should align
Surname: Cheetham
Firstname: Francis George
Address: MEOT
Occupation: Custom House Officer
Note:
Father: James
Mother: Elizabeth Entry No: 2172
Birth Date:
Baptism Date: 25 February 1835
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I think I may have found JBL's first family :o, just going to transcribe....
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"Playbill for the Pavilion Theatre, Eastern Opera House's productions of: the pantomime, St. George and the dragon, or, Harlequin and the seven champions of Christendom, by Francis George Cheatham" (1864)
http://www.elta-project.org/browse.html?recordId=1692
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From IGI:
1. ELIZA VAUGHAN LLOYDChristening: 13 NOV 1831 Saint Mary, Battersea
Parents: JOHN BALLARD LLOYD and ELIZA VAUGHAN
2. BENJAMIN LLOYD Christening: 27 APR 1834 Saint Mary, Battersea
Parents: JOHN BALLOT LLOYD and ELIZA VAUGHAN
Shaun, that would explain the clerk and author ref in 1871 perhaps?
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Goodness me Monica - however did you find those?
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But it should align
Sorry Pete I am not with you...what is out of alignment?
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"King Sillyninny, who sold his wife for half a guinea, or, Harlequin and the enchanted princess', (altered from 'King Sillyninny or Harlequin and the charmed half-guinea'), pantomime by F. G. Cheatham. Licence sent 22 December 1862 for performance at the Pavilion. "
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/HITS0001.ASP?VPath=arevhtml/78952.htm&Search=Add.+53018+D&Highlight=F
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sorry mails crossed, I menat the Census entry showing George H and my appalling mental maths that gave me a DOB of 1823 :-\ against George W's DOB of 1827
By the way the Francis Cheetham Christening was St Dunstan's, Stepney
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I only popped out for a hour and look at all this info !!!! :o :o :o :o
Pete, thank you for that clue ! (I have replied to your email ) ;D
Shaun and Monica, you are both so clever ! thank you both so much for all your hard work, its very much apreciated ;D
I shall now try to calm down and study it all ;D
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"King Sillyninny, who sold his wife for half a guinea, or, Harlequin and the enchanted princess', (altered from 'King Sillyninny or Harlequin and the charmed half-guinea'), pantomime by F. G. Cheatham. Licence sent 22 December 1862 for performance at the Pavilion. "
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/HITS0001.ASP?VPath=arevhtml/78952.htm&Search=Add.+53018+D&Highlight=F
If you chase Francis's Family through the censii his youngest daughter Charlotte Louisa was a Professional Singer, and married a Musician/Conductor from Hull called Arthur Boocock.
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With just movements around the parishes in London, thought you might want to see this parish map for London (1877) http://archivemaps.com/mapco/parish/parish.htm
St Mary's Battersea, for example is on the last row, 2nd box in from the left.
Monica :)
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Thanks for the map monica ;D
would Benjamin Lloyd have been an attorney before becoming a magistrate ?
as theres records for this in
The New Complete Guide to All Persons Who Have Any Trade or Concern With the City of London and Parts Adjacent. 16th edn., 1783. London
according to Ancestry,
but if he was an attorney by 1781 would he be to old to have JBL ?
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Benjamin thomas Lloyd 24 MAR 1805 St Mary, Rotherhithe, London, England
parents Benjamin and Elizabeth
poss brother ?
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I've seen this Benjamin (b. Rotherhithe) in my trips up and down the censuses ;D He shows as a baker by trade in later years.
Monica
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A baker? Hmmm...reminded me of Jorose's earlier post re John Lloyd born St Clements Worcester 1807
The one b. 1807 St. Clements Worcester does seem to have lived; he is in the St. John Hill workhouse in 1871 (Wandsworth and Clapham Union, located in Battersea. Aged 63, a baker, married.
(There is a John Lloyd, no middle name, d. 1877 aged 70 in Wandsworth district on freebmd)
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(Before commissioner Phillips) nov. 1853
The matter of John Ballard Lloyd.
This insolvent, who was described as the promoter of 'The City of London Brewing and Malting Company'. applied to be discharged under the act.
Mr Sargood opposed for Messers.Sarl, silversmiths of Cornhill.
It appeared that the insolvent had been a commercial Traveller, and in 1852 concieved a project called ' 'The City of London Brewing and Malting Company'.
He advertised and got names, which he set forth in a prospectus, and the company was provisionally registered, but nothing further was done.
The object of the company, when formed , was to obtain cheap beer.
He obtained £52 of plated silver articles of Messers.Sarl, which he pledged within a fortnight to sustain the company.
He got the articles for the intended company.
Mr Sargood questioned the insolvent on the project, and on the money he had raised by pledging property to support the offices, and he afterwards gave the tickets to Mr Denton,who had employed him as a traveller.
The learned counsel prayed the attendence of the secretary of the company.
Mr Commissioner Phillips acquiesced in the application of the learned councel, and ajourned the case for several purposes, including the attendence of the secretary.
The insolvent was remanded to prison.
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Another newspaper repot mentions Johns addresses, might these be any use ?
formerly of no.8, st Thomas street stepney,
and no.18 Cornhill, London,
then of Emmett's cottage, Hornsey road, Hornsey, Middlesex.
and late of 8 Leslie street, Mile end road ,middlesex.
8 Leslie st is where Grenville was born.
plus found out today that his sister, Florence Georgina Henrietta Lloyd who was born in 1856 also has JBL as father on her birth cert.
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Guess what popped up on Ancestry today ?
marriage between Lavinia Ann Cheatham and John Bollard (?)Lloyd !
but I can't see any details as I don't have the right membership !
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How exciting ;D You and I have the same membership so I'm no use :P Hopefully someone can help out. Might be worthwhile you showing where you found it on the records so people know where to look.
Monica :)
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I am so excited ;D
its in the London, england, marriages and banns(1754_1921)
but if you just do a basic search for Lavinia Ann Cheatham its the first thing that pops up ,
would be grateful if anyone could have a look ;D
I think our library is open today so will call in after picking kids up from school,
(but thats hours to wait!!! ;D)
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:o I can access it!
:'( :'( :'( Half the entry has been cut off on the image would you believe...boooo¬!
It's entry No. 575 (page 192). Entry on Page 191 No. 572 shows as married 22 Sept 1842, so marriage for JBL and Lavinia shortly after this I would imagine.
The entry is the reading of the banns x 3 dates and I would also imagine (if I could actually see it!) that on the margin would be the actual marriage date like it is on the opposite page.
Monica
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??? argh !
is there anything to say where they were married ?
is this enough info to get a cert ?
******!!
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The whole file seems to relate to St Saviours Parish, Southwark, Surrey. The way the file (59 pgs) seems to be put together (but I can't check it properly because 2/3 of the right hand pages are missing, is the first section seems to be the marriage entries themselves on the registers and the second section would appear to be the banns. Bad scanning/imageing of entries :-\
I've checked through the September and October marriage entries, those that show on the left hand side of the registers but, you guessed it, nothing shows for JBL and Lavinia so my guess they are probably on the right hand side page of the register of which you can only see a little bit..........so close :'(
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who photographs these things !! :( what a set of idiots !!
Poor Lavinia must have been either very pregnant or had just popped as little Lavinias birth is oct/nov/dec 1842 !
what now ? ???
thanks for looking by the way ;D
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Have a look at this quite recent post here on RC, particularly the later entries. Maybe some ideas on how to proceed..
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,402274.0.html
Also worthwhile keeping an eye out for any possible ways of looking up that possible first marriage we found for JBL at St Mary's Battersea.
Monica
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Hi all, Can't bear when a search goes coldish!!! Don't know what I did to deserve it but managed to see whole pages of the St Saviour's Marriage Banns register for 1842!
Yes the banns were read on successive weeks - 21/8, 28/8 & 4/9, and logged by S Benson, he is a widower and she a spinster, but sadly there is no marriage listed in first part of the register and there is no margin reference to a marriage like the majority of the banns entries. Sorry but I found another set banns for a couple of the same name. will explore and post again in a moment, Thinlizy
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:-* Thank you TL. Now why did it not work for me I wonder ??? Are able to see the two sides for the actual marriage entries in the first section?
Monica
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I was just about to post this message when it said there was new posts,
I went to the library to have a look,
how rubbish are those pictures !!! what on earth was the point in putting them on !!!! has anyone in charge of ancestry actually looked at them ! ??? ???
Did you see there were 2 entries ? one in 1842 and one about 65 ish ( i forgot a pen so ...)
does this mean they didn't get married in 42? or is it another error in the rubbish records that you can't see ?
I did find out that one of thier daughters Adeline Clara Eliz. married Alfred Norris so that cheered me up slightly (they were both witnesses on Florences wedding cert)
Oh and JBL was still a 'gentleman' on Florences wed.cert in 1880
--------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder why we only got a corner of the page ????????
thanks Thinlizy, you'v got me al excited again ! ;D
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arrrrggghhh the suspense is killing me !!! ;D
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Just had a thought from what TL has said regarding there being no annotation on the register of the actual wedding date following banns...
Do you remember on one of the court/newspaper reports that you found Andria that it mentioned the judge being not at all happy with JBL, given the court had just received a letter from very unhappy wife?
My twisted mind is wondering whether that 1842 marriage actually went ahead following banns if JBL was actually still married to Eliza Vaughan and this was found out before the marriage to Lavinia could take place.....
Monica
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I was thinking that, but Thinlizy said he was down as a widower, so maybe they were going to get married and pretended Eliza vaughan was dead, but got caught out and had to wait till the 1865one ? ???
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Hi all, to much traffic I can't get my next post off
The 2nd Banns were at St George the Martyr Wandsworth Middlesex. in 1864!!
Same details for the couple JBL is still a widower! and Lavinia is a spinster. Banns read 9/10, 16/10 & 23/10 by Hugh Allan. There is no margin annotation indication if a marriage took place and there are no marriage records as in the earlier Parish record book. This is probably due to Statutory Registration from 1855?
Yes, managed to see all the pages by scrolling with the 'grabby hand' pointer or what ever it's called. Thinlizy
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thanks Thinlizy ;D i've been on pins for 20 minutes ;D
well I wonder what happened then, did they ever get married ?
how strange ??? ???
got to nip off for an hour, but back later to ponder over this ;D
thanks again thinlizy for all your help ;D
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Another thought ::)
Going back to Wandsworth area in late 1864 makes me think of that entry found by Jorose early on in this thread:
The one b. 1807 St. Clements Worcester does seem to have lived; he is in the St. John Hill workhouse in 1871 (Wandsworth and Clapham Union, located in Battersea. Aged 63, a baker, married.
(There is a John Lloyd, no middle name, d. 1877 aged 70 in Wandsworth district on freebmd)
Mmmmm.
That's great info TL, more questions as always but with JBL's life that what we have ;D
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just trailing through millions of censuses(?) and had a thought re Eliza Vaughan's children, they were christened in Battersea,
???
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Just checking on the church St George the Martyr. I wonder why it shows on Ancestry as Wandsworth, it's very much in Southwark and closer to the area where Lavinia was living with the children www.stgeorgethemartyr.fsnet.co.uk/history.html
Monica
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;D found some stuff today,
thought i'd update my membership for a month to take advantage of those new London records, so for an extra £2.95 I've got 5 marriage certificates and loads of baptisms so far ;D
anyway back to the topic,
looked at the baptisms for Eliza and Benjamin, JBL's children with Eliza Vaughan,
on one he is still a 'gentleman' but on the other he is a baker !!!
JBL is named on all of his other childrens wedding certs
so including the 2 baptisms above
1831 gent
1834 baker
1864 gent
1878 deceased
1880 gent
1882 gent
1884 traveller
;D
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So by the end we have a travelling, gentle(man) baker who liked to also dabble in various business ventures :P
That 1871 entry at the Wandsworth and Clapham Union Workhouse is looking more and more like it may have been him and that death in 1877 in Wandsworth. I so hope there are application/admission records left for there which might help enormously to give you some more detailed background on him.
Glad you found lots of stuff today ;D
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that baptism of JBL in liverpool in 1819 is a puzzle too
and the magistrate father...
;D
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Were there any sponsors names on any of the children's christenings that might lead anywhere with other family members?
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didn't see any other name on there and no sign of them (the kids) getting married either, can't find any census either ???
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look what i found !
In The Law Advertiser 1830 which is all about bankrupts/insolvency etc
partnerships dissolved,
VAUGHAN George and John Ballard Lloyd, Mitchum Common, Mitchum, Surrey,
Grocers, cheesemongers and shopkeepers, 1oct.
;D
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JBL was certainly a busy man. Given the date, certainly points to that 1807 birth (with the question mark over that 1819 christening).
Monica :)
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A few thoughts, sorry if I can't explain properly, I'm rubbish at writing stuff ! :D
I was wondering if Benjamin(father of the 1819 john) is JBL's older brother,
as JBL then names his first son Ben,
is 'Ballard' his mothers maiden name ? (as quite a few of my rellies have done this)
theres a reference to a chief magistrate in Liverpool in 1853, JB.Lloyd.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sJQPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA771&dq=,++magistrate%2B+jb.lloyd+%2Blondon&lr=#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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I've seen this Benjamin (b. Rotherhithe) in my trips up and down the censuses ;D He shows as a baker by trade in later years.
Monica
thats what i was looking for,
i can't find him on Ancestry, ???
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I can't find him again either ::)
Have we come across this ref before?:
London Grand Junction Railway, surnamed the humbug: a letter (and ...
John Ballard Lloyd, a baker, another witness to that alleged fact, stated (p. 71. ... John Ballard Lloyd, a native of Liverpool. In 1823 he was appointed a ...
www.jstor.org/stable/60240088 - Similar
by R M'William - 1838
All very tempting....but it is pay to view :-\
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we had the link but only showed part of that about him being a baker,
I think it works out at about £6 to get it, will have to wait till next week as I'm spent up ;D
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Hi all
Sorry to be late to this topic.
To solve the problem of only seeing 2/3rds of the page, you need to make sure you have downloaded the enhanced viewer and tweak your pop-up blocker
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,370211.90.html
There's plenty of discussion here from pg 7 onwards
Dawn
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Thanks Dawn :) Will have a look at the link!
Monica
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cheers Dawn, it was fine when I used it at home, the library needs to sort it's self out tho ;D
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Forgot to add that, for some images, you have you use the 'drag' hand icon found above the image on the left hand side. Not all the images have slider bars at the bottom or right hand side.
Dawn
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thanks Dawn ;D
the extra bit on google,
London Grand Junction Railway, surnamed the humbug: a letter (and ...
John Ballard Lloyd, a native of Liverpool. In 1823 he was appointed a midshipman aboard the East India trade ship Castle Huntly, Captain Drummond,
London Grand Junction Railway, surnamed the humbug: a letter (and ...
John Ballard Lloyd, a baker, another witness to that alleged ... Mrs. Lloyd, and went to reside at Battersea. In the year 1830, only about nine
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That second string is certainly JBL ;D
I wonder if anyone has access to this site jstor.com. Seems to be an American site pricipally. Might be worth asking on the US board whether someone may be able to link in perhaps?
Monica
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Lordy, this is slow torture...another segment (this is squeezing google inch by inch!);
Mrs. Lloyd, and went to reside at Battersea. In the year 1830, only about nine or ten months after he was put into the business at Mitcham, Lloyd failed, ...
www.jstor.org/stable/60240088
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;D I'm doing the same ;D
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jstor is an subscription site used by educational facilities.
I know there have been requests on here in the past inc myself but no takers. Type jstor into the search function.
Dawn
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I'm just not connecting the leaflet of the London Grand Junction Railway to the coming and goings of JBL ??? This is the full citation from the site:
* London Grand Junction Railway, surnamed the humbug: a letter (and second letter) to the ... Duke of Bedford, ... Marquis Camden, ... Lord Southampton, ... [and] Lord Calthorpe.
* M'William, Robert
* LSE Selected Pamphlets, (1838)
(article consists of 54 pages)
* Contributed by: LSE Library
* Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/60240088
One way forward might be for you to contact the LSE here in London and ask them for further details perhaps? http://www2.lse.ac.uk/library/eresources/Home.aspx
Monica
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I'll stop now because I'm driving myself mad :P
John Ballard Lloyd, a baker, another witness to that alleged fact, stated (p. ... Cheme church ; some time after Mr. Vaughan took a business at Battersea, ...
www.jstor.org/stable/60240088 -
:'( :'( :'(
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Last one now I promise (off to bed...football and rugby mum all day tomorrow 8))
Cheme church ; some time after Mr. Vaughan took a business at Battersea, and after instructing Lloyd in the business at mitcham he gave it up to Mr. and ...
Monica
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oooo got a bit more !!!
London Grand Junction Railway, surnamed the humbug: a letter (and ...
London Grand Junction Railway Bill into the Committee of the ...... 1826, he got acquainted with Miss Eliza Vaughan, the only child of Mr. George
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'went to live with Mr. Vaughan at Battersea, where he continued, as he states in''.
gave up that business, and, as he states in his evidence, took to railroads, and went ...
'after we rind him residing at Mitcham asa private gentleman there, in the year '.
'lodger at the Red or Golden Lion, Camberwell, as a private gentleman, and soon' .
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Courtesy of TNA, from Jstor:
This pamphlet I think seems to be in an addition to a main enquiry that was on going in respect of the London Grand Junction Railway and what seems to have been a bit of a scam, naturally with JBL at the heart of it ::)
John Ballard Lloyd, a baker, another witness to the alleged fact, stated (p.71) that he had called upon 1400 persons, but cannot say within a week or two (p.28); had kept no book which would point out date when he called upon any one of them, but only the result of his calling; and as he was contradicted by several witnesses, who appeared on the other side, and I was prevented by the Committee (see p. 36) from following up on his cross examination so as to have made him tell some of part of his own history, in order to be able to judge the better of his veracity, I have deemed it due to the characters of the persons whom he contradicted, as well as to the general question, to make further enquiry as to him, and the result will be found below.*
More in the next post...
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John Ballard Lloyd a native of Liverpool. In 1823 he was appointed a midshipman aboard the East India trade ship Castle Huntly, Captain Drummond, and entered on board of that vessel on January 17, 1824, and, having completed one voyage, he finally left that service on the 26 April 1825. Some time after he left the East India Company’s service, he went to reside with his mother and his stepfather, who then lived in Nelson Square; he afterwards resided some time with his uncle, a Mr Lloyd of Norwood; we afterwards find him residing near Whitechapel with a Mr Lloyd, perhaps the same uncle; we then find him a lodger at the Red or Golden Lion, Camberwell, as a private gentleman, and soon after we find him residing at Mitcham as a private gentleman; there in the year 1826 he got acquainted with Miss Eliza Vaughan, the only child of Mr George Vaughan, carrying a business as a baker and general shop keeper; he decoyed the daughter , then about sixteen years of age, from a stage coach, and after living with her about eight or nine months, was, about April, 1827, married to her at Cheme Church; some time after Mr Vaughan took a business in Battersea and after instructing Lloyd in the business at Mitcham he gave it up to Mr and Mrs Lloyd and went to reside in Battersea. In the year 1830, only about nine or ten months after he was put into the business at Mitcham, Lloyd failed , and went to live in Battersea with Mr Vaughan where he continued , as he states in his evidence, nearly five years: about June, 1833, his name was substituted on the shop at Battersea for the name of Vaughan, which till then had been on the shop; Lloyd then carried on the business at Battersea until October, 1835, when he gave up that business, and as he states in his evidence, took to the railroads, and went to live at County Terrace, New Kent Road, where he resided when he got into the employment of Richardson , to take assents and dissents of the proprietors on this line of railway. About the middle of April he says he went to live in Ligonier Street, a .....
The next page (31) seems to have moved on from this section. Not sure if the page order is out on the images and didn't have time to go through the other 53 pages! I did asearch by key words so not sure.
What does this word mean "he decoyed the daughter" other than the plain obvious. Except it was from a stagecoach.... ;D
Monica :)
Added: de·coyed, de·coy·ing, de·coys: To lure or entrap by or as if by a decoy. Lordy, he kidnapped her!
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Back to this thread after a long absence......"Cheme" must be Cheam surely ?
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Would have thought so Shaun :) Given there is no marriage to be found between JBL and Lavinia, this may be the only hope of confirming his father! Any thoughts on how to find this marriage ::)
Monica
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His life gets more and more complicated ,
sailor, kidnapper, baker, shopkeeper, ???
the plot yet again thickens !!!!!!!!!!
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Don't forget from Shaun's previous notes:
1836 - manager, General Cabriolet Conveyance Company ( share offer August 1836)
1853 - in prison for insolvency. Had been promoter of "The City of London Brewing and Malting Company" and formerly a commercial traveller
And as always, a gentleman ;D
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Andria
See this link - No. 7 - regarding parish records for Cheam www.londonlibraries.org/library/15761/Sutton Central Library
You might be able to make enquires by phone or email regarding that possible 1827 marriage.
Monica
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I'll try ringing tomorrow, that is one very wanted certificate !
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more mystery !!!
Pallots marriage index,
Nightingale Eliza Vaughan .s
= John Ballard Lloyd .b
Cheam 1829
what ???
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HI
This is just to point out to be cautious of too many news entries relating to Law, Solicitors and Magistrates of entries where teh letter J B Lloyd are in the same text.
Reason is that I did a gazette search for JB Lloyd as you all have and have then done a search for the address that shows agains the solicitor address that being 54 Castle Street Liverpool and found an entry to show that a John Buck Lloyd bn 1807 Coventry was in fact dealing form that address as was a Phillip F Garnett bn 1823 Toxteth
Just felt compelled to post that info...
Wendy
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I checked out the John Buck Lloyd in liverpool the other day, he was the Mayor.
;D
Everything we have found always has JBL's Full name, He must have been proud of the Ballard bit ;D thankfully, as otherwise I'd still be working through millions of John Lloyds ;D
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I wonder if Eliza was illegitimate? From IGI:
ELIZA VAUGHAN NIGHTINGALE Birth: 26 MAR 1810/ Christening: 20 JUL 1823 St Giles Cripplegate, London
Parents: HANNAH NIGHTINGALE
If she used Vaughan as her middlename (like JBL used Ballard in his reporting), may explain why the children of JBL and Eliza showed in their christenings on IGI with mother's name as Eliza Vaughan (which I read as surname but actually could well have been her middle name).
Monica
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at least she seemed to be in contact with her father ;D
can't find any sign of George marrying Hannah,
so, who was JBL's mother and stepfather ? Nelson Square sounds a posh address,
and how to find out about his time on board Castle Huntly ?
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Picture and some background on Nelson Square here www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355
Monica
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Pity we can't find one for these for the time of JBL's time on the Castle Huntly - includes a drawing of the ship http://tiny123.com/1wy
Monica
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The one b. 1807 St. Clements Worcester does seem to have lived; he is in the St. John Hill workhouse in 1871 (Wandsworth and Clapham Union, located in Battersea. Aged 63, a baker, married.
(There is a John Lloyd, no middle name, d. 1877 aged 70 in Wandsworth district on freebmd)
Back to the Josiah Wilson link:
In 1859 a Louisa, second daughter of the late James Collins, died at the house of her brother in law, Josiah Wilson, of Stamford Hill.
Sure enough, there is also a marriage in 1802 for Benjamin Lloyd and Elizabeth Collins at St. Michael, Worcester.
Also look at The Times, Saturday, Nov 11, 1837; pg. 4; Issue 16571;
Collins (Charles Frederick Collins, youngest son of James) v. Wilson (presumably Josiah?)
There seems to have been some wrangling over this will from the beginning.
The details can be found in the Law Report of 1838 at http://books.google.com
The seven children were: James, Henry, Mary Anne, Louisa, Eliza, Amelia, and Charles Frederick; but Eliza is listed in 1831 as "Eliza Collins" while Amelia is listed under her married name, so I'm not convinced she's the same as the Elizabeth who married in 1802 (or indeed that the 1802 marriage is the right oe).
At last ! I have worked out what this was all about ! Sorry jorose !
We didn't see the first half of the report in The Times !
I will have to type it out later !
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but still can't work out how to find any of it on google books ???
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not sure what it is you cant find in google books but if it is info regarding the will of James Collins snr then here's what I did to find it
advanced search enter in the top search box the words Josiah Wilson Stamford Hill
The law Report should be the first one that shows
Wendy
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Thanks Wendy,
theres quite a few refrences to Josiah wilson, marring Amelia, having a daughter Fanny Amelia and a son.
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John Ballard Lloyd a native of Liverpool. In 1823 he was appointed a midshipman aboard the East India trade ship Castle Huntly, Captain Drummond, and entered on board of that vessel on January 17, 1824, and, having completed one voyage, he finally left that service on the 26 April 1825. Some time after he left the East India Company’s service, he went to reside with his mother and his stepfather, who then lived in Nelson Square; he afterwards resided some time with his uncle, a Mr Lloyd of Norwood; we afterwards find him residing near Whitechapel with a Mr Lloyd, perhaps the same uncle; we then find him a lodger at the Red or Golden Lion, Camberwell, as a private gentleman, and soon after we find him residing at Mitcham as a private gentleman; there in the year 1826 he got acquainted with Miss Eliza Vaughan, the only child of Mr George Vaughan, carrying a business as a baker and general shop keeper; he decoyed the daughter , then about sixteen years of age, from a stage coach, and after living with her about eight or nine months, was, about April, 1827, married to her at Cheme Church; some time after Mr Vaughan took a business in Battersea and after instructing Lloyd in the business at Mitcham he gave it up to Mr and Mrs Lloyd and went to reside in Battersea. In the year 1830, only about nine or ten months after he was put into the business at Mitcham, Lloyd failed , and went to live in Battersea with Mr Vaughan where he continued , as he states in his evidence, nearly five years: about June, 1833, his name was substituted on the shop at Battersea for the name of Vaughan, which till then had been on the shop; Lloyd then carried on the business at Battersea until October, 1835, when he gave up that business, and as he states in his evidence, took to the railroads, and went to live at County Terrace, New Kent Road, where he resided when he got into the employment of Richardson , to take assents and dissents of the proprietors on this line of railway. About the middle of April he says he went to live in Ligonier Street, a .....
The next page (31) seems to have moved on from this section. Not sure if the page order is out on the images and didn't have time to go through the other 53 pages! I did asearch by key words so not sure.
What does this word mean "he decoyed the daughter" other than the plain obvious. Except it was from a stagecoach.... ;D
Monica :)
Added: de·coyed, de·coy·ing, de·coys: To lure or entrap by or as if by a decoy. Lordy, he kidnapped her!
the next bit is ....
street the situation of which I have not been able to find,where he states he resided when
he went in the police force, which he did on the 16th April, where he continued only until
the 26th May,(bring a period of only 40 days),
when he quitted without notice; soon after he was engagedin setting up 'The single horse
safety carriage company', where he continued some time,but afterwards left that
establishment, and then went to live at 21 Wellington Terrace, near Waterloo Bridg, until
about september, when he , in company with another person, opened an office at no 42 Maiden
Lane, Covent Garden,as house agents, accountants and collectors of rent,and hiring servants;
there they paid one quarters rent,and,on the week preceding Lady-day last,sold off the goods and fixtures, and finally disapeared on the 19th March 1837.
After they were gone several persons called in Maiden lane expecting,as they said to recieve money, some of them having paid money to Lloyd under his promises of procuring situations. One young man says he had agreed to pay him (lloyd) 200l to procure him the situation of secretary to a cab company, which Lloyd pretended to be getting up in opposition to that which he had before estabished and the candidate for office states he actually paid him 50l in part of that suma little before he disapeared.
So much for the respectability of this useful witness.
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Hi Andria :)
Did I miss all this :P ?
Monica
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the husband bought me it as an early birthday present , I tried sending you a copy but my email won't do it, I'll get him to try later.
I wonder why he joined the police :o
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I did laugh when I saw we can add 'police constable' to his ever growing list of occupations ;D
Considerate and thought OH to feed your obsession with your early present for your birthday *happy returns* in case I miss it!
Monica :)
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I think his main occupation was 'wideboy' ;D
Don't give the OH any credit for this, I told him I wanted it NOW !! ;D
as it was driving me mad !
my birthday is on the 29th so wasn't too early ;D
I'm sure I've seen something about police records on rootschat, I'd love to see JBLs paperwork , ;D
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Not sure about the paperwork, but a little from our favourite resource:
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/guide/trade/metpolice.htm
Monica
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Just a little update for those who care ;D
I have found another child for JBL and Eliza Vaughan Nightingale
Henry Vaughan Lloyd born in 1836
plus thier marriage reg on 15 feb 1829, one witness is Hannah Nightingale(mother) the other is William ?,
(http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/lloydraistrick/dunno.jpg)
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More progress ;D
Is the marriage the one that you had found earlier (Pallots?). You might want to post the clip for witnesses on the deciphering board to see what people think of William's surname.
The third child, Henry (after Eliza's father?), where was he born?
Monica
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Henry was baptised on 22 may 1836 at St Marys, Beddington, Sutton, Surrey,
abode was Mitcham,
JBL was still calling himself a gentleman ;D
As for the marriage, yes its the one mentioned in Pallots at St Dunstan,Cheam, Surrey,
I have posted it on the deciphering board and theres a few replies but still not sure
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where did those 3 children end up?
By the 1841 census they would be
Eliza 10
Benjamin 7
Henry 5,
and on JBL's banns he is a widower by 1842
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....but we know he really wasn't a widower in 1842 ::) Remember the marriage with Lavinia never got to the altar after banns...twice ::) Also the reference in the Bankruptcy Court to a letter received from a 'wronged wife'..... ;D
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hmmm forgot bout that,
so where was Eliza and the kids? ;D
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Happy wedding anniversary, 181 yrs today JBL and Eliza ;D ;D ;D
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I found this site regarding Lloyds Pink Pills .Food for thought as an American connection is mentioned
http://www.history.inportsmouth.co.uk/events/lloyds.htm
Spring
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Hi Springbok,
I have already posted that link on here ;D
I had wondered before if JBL had gone over to America with his son but he would have been either too old or dead ;D
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Sorry, missed that post!
Fascinating piece of history though, and it does make one wonder if there is a familial connection somewhere along the line?
Spring
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Do you mean familial connection between John Ballard Lloyd and Walter Henry LLoyd?
there is , Walter is Johns son ;D and my great uncle ;D
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Found more stuff !!!!!!!!!!!!
in the updated gales papers theres a long piece about JBL,
which sheds some light on the 2 baptism/christenings !
when com.Evans was asked if he was the godfather he said
''he was then about 8 or 9 yrs old (the prisoner now being 48 yr old), His father was a presbytarian and his mother wishing to have her child christened in the church of england, I consented, knowing the family, to stand godfather to him''
it goes on with JBL talking about how poor they were, him, wife a 1mth old baby and 2 other children had to sleep on bare boards as the windows, doors and all there belongings had been taken :'( december 1855
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Well that at least goes some way to explaining and linking the two baptisms we had (1807 in Worcester and 1819 in Liverpool) :)
Sad details on Lavinia and children though :-\
Just as an aside - has the Gale site been updated from what you said?
Monica
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That baby must have died as I dont have any record of one born in 1855, and it was 5mths after his 10 yr old son Fredrick died, plus one of the children must have been my great grandad Grenville who would have been 3yrs old .
The Gales newspapers has now got 'part 2' in the search, theres afew new Jbl ones including a long one with loads of quotes from the man himself !
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UPDATE !
I have found yet another child of John Ballard Lloyd !!
John Fairclough Lloyd, born june 1830 in Mitcham, Surrey.
Poor little soul was baptised on the 9th July and buried on the 11th July 1830, aged 5 weeks.
this made me wonder about the Fairclough bit as he used it again 22 yrs later for my great grandads middle name, so I searched again and came up with a William Fairclough Lloyd born in 1824 in Norwood,
In 1825 JBL was living with his Uncle, Mr Lloyd from Norwood !!!!
(Williams father was Joseph Lloyd who married Sophia Eleanor Lyne in 1815)
is this a family connection ?????
William ended up in tasmania by the way :)
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Hurray, new searching ;D
Searching on http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start for other children to Joseph Lloyd and wife Sophia also brings up:
Joseph Lewingdon Lloyd, born 18 Sep 1821 and chr. 28 Oct 1821 at INDEPENDENT,LOWER NORWOOD,SURREY,ENGLAND
Sarah Blanchard Lloyd, chr. ? 1823 at Lambeth (Non Conformist Record Indexes)
Perhaps this one, Henry Lyne (same parents) Chr. 1829 imn CRAYFORD, KENT, ENGLAND
Monica :)
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Potentially more children. I'll let you search so you can see the entries. Using the new family search site above, just search under 'advanced search' as for a marriage, ie. Joseph Lloyd and Sophia and a number more potential entries come up for children, including the marriage which you already have.
Monica
Added: Seven of the children's baptisms show on the Parish Registers giving Joseph's occupation as a Corn Factor/Merchant or Gentleman in the ones I have looked at.
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Also see from the 1815 Parish marriage entry for Joseph and Sophia that he shows as widower, so age slightly older that implied by a first marriage in 1815, putting him closer in age likely to have a brother Benjamin?
One of the witnesses to marriage shows as Sophia Lloyd, another family name or an in-law I wonder?
Monica
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Benjamin Smith Lloyd 1818 ! that fits in well !!!
I'd forgotten about that new search, theres loads of kids popping up !
I'm going to make a testing tree on ancestry just to keep all the info together,
exciting stuff !! thanks Monica !
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Some light reading:
www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/16517/pages/1696 - mention here of a Benjamin Lloyd, top of second column.
www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/18261/pages/1576 - first entry on the second column.
www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/19618/pages/1148 - on the second column, under John Herman Merivale, Commisioner (look who the Commissioner is above - our old fried Joshua Evan who JBL kept busy!)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09d3/ - Marriage entry from Google Books for Joseph and Sophia
Bound to be lots more given the gene pool ;D
Still no closer to details on JBL's father though....as yet!
Monica
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well I've found 10 children for Joseph and Sophia, and made them a family tree.
Norwood cemetery is full of thier children/grandchildren !!
the mention of Benjamin in the same article about Joseph is exciting, maybe they are family ?
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possible clue to JBL family !
On the met police thread barnabyp has kindly found me JBL in the joiners ledger, so he did actually join the police in 1836 for 40 days.
in the bit for who recommended them and thier address it says '
'B.Gray esq, Rec.Geu.Off. W.Fairclough esq, Customs'
whats rec geu off ?
is W.Fairclough family ? as he named 2 of his children 'fairclough'
hmmmmmmm ???
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:P Can't see anything for a W Fairclough, Customs on early censuses - assuming William?
Monica
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I wonder if he met Lavinia through W.Fairclough ? as her dad was involved in Customs?
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Could well have done. Have you had any luck on censuses for him? Re the use of the name Fairclough for JBL and Lavinia's children, maybe down to a close friendship with our Mr W Fairclough?
All guesses!
Monica
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Have'nt done anything yet, lol, did a sleep over at work last night and out sorting the chucks this morn ;D
so far theres this 'fairclough' thing
first child with Eliza, called John Fairclough Lloyd 1830
son of JLloyd , Norwood , william Fairclough Lloyd 1824
reference by W. Fairclough 1836
JBL + Lavinias son , Grenville Fairclough Lloyd 1852'
must be an important name as he's used it twice?
could fairclough be his step father? as mother living with stepfather in 1825.
Benjamin lloyd, JBL's father could his mother be a Fairclough ?as that would fit in with Joseph Lloyd being Ben's Brother.
Fairclough can't be his grandfather the magistrate ?
oh and just found WF.Lloyd death record and it say father Joseph L Lloyd
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thanks to huckleberry, extra info on JBL's baptism
Baptism: 31 May 1819 Christ Church, Hunter Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Ballard Lloyd - Son of Benjamin Lloyd & Elizabeth
Born: 22 Dec 1807
Abode: Circus St.
Occupation: Mercht.
Baptised by: T. Kidd Officiating Minst.
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1851, Page 24, Entry 188
Source: LDS Film 1656153
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Hurray, we were on the right track! The connection we needed between the 1807 christening and the 1819 one in Liverpool. Any mention of sponsors on the Liverpool entry?
Monica
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thats all there is,
weird how it says date of birth 22 dec, as that is the date of his baptism in 1807, maybe he was baptised on the day he was born ?
so Benjamin, what sort of merchant was he? could link in with Joseph Lloyd corn merchant ?
Benjamin had died and Elizabeth remarried by 1824 so where to find directories from 1819 to 1823 ?
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::) Here's a thought to ponder on.....
We have Benjamin Lloyd marrying Eliza Collins on 06 MAY 1802 at St Michael, Worcester. Then JBL being christened also at St Clement, Worcester on 22 DEC 1807.
We then jump to Liverpool and have JBL's second christening at 31 May 1819 Christ Church, Hunter Street, Liverpool.
What if father Benjamin had died some time before and Eliza Collins/Lloyd's second marriage was this one;
Elizabeth Lloyd and William Fairclough marriage on 10 May 1819 at Christ Church, Hunter Street, Liverpool.
Monica
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Blimey! that fits in with the police thing too !!!
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From www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
Marriage: 10 May 1819 Christ Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William Fairclough - Clerk in Customs of Liverpool...is this our earlier Customs ref ::)
Elizabeth Lloyd - Widow of the same Parish
Witness: Mary Steel; Geo. Cruickshank
Married by Licence by: T Kidd Off. Minister
Register: Marriages 1811 - 1825 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 68, Entry 203
I like this marriage!
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that just fits perfectly !!
I wonder if she had anymore children ?
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I can't see anything on the Lancashire site, but we had a ref (feels like a life time ago in the earlier days!) of JBL's mother and second husband in XXX Square in London by mid 1820s, I think!
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1825, nelson square
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That's the one!
Added: thinking about ages etc. If Eliza married first in 1802 by 1819 she may have been close to or past being able to have children perhaps?
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good point, what about between 1802 and 1807, surely there must be more than just JBL?
no sign of Elizabeth in 1841 census ?
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Regarding W Fairclough Esq. when he acted as a referee for JBL's attemp to be a policeman, what was the address given for him? This was 1836 so might give a better clue as to where William and Elizabeth (if still alive) were living by the 1841 census.
Been trying to find them on 1841 but not getting anywhere at the moment.
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no address just says customs :(
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Looking at burials, there is a William Fairclough death in 1840 and an Elizabeth Fairclough death in 1844. Both show Lambeth addresses and buried at All Souls Cemetery. Aprox. birth years for both is 1779 which could fit. Maybe something to try and work from...
Off to bed now. Clear head will help and it's now left my body ;D
Monica
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why do these clues always turn up late at night !!
thanks for your wonderful help, as always ;D
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how about looking for wills for Elizabeth and William ?
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i've got williams will !
only read the first couple of lines, but he leaves something to
George Cruickshanks(bookseller)
and good old Joshua Evans !!!!
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Joshua Evans is peppered throughout JBL's life!
When did William Fairclough die? Was it his death c. 1840?
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yeah thats the one, have you checkedyour email ?
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Wills make me want to go into a dark cupboard and weep :'( ;D Just seen it! I'll have a look also, not that I am any good on these...but lots of Rchatters, as you know with James Collins' will, can do magic ;)
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I can read more that I thought!
No mention of JBL throughout.
The executors George Cruickshanks, Joshua Evans and [Barnard Barret/Darwood Banner? not sure on his name] complete control on his estate and sale of assets.
The will made in January 1823.
Elizabeth to have benefit of his assets in her lifetime.
At her death, William Battersby who in 1823 resided in the Plantation, the Colony of Gxxxx, was to be the main beneficiary. From the last paraghaph, looks like William Battersby may have already died by the time of William's death?
The address at the time of William's death certainly matches that burial entry we had: William Fairclough, 61, 21 Upper Stamford Street, Lamberth, burial at All Souls cemetery, onn 21 December 1840. By default that other possible entry for Elizabeth in 1844 you would think be the correct one.
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also buried at a all souls, George Cruickshanks, but is it the same one ?
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/speel/illus/cruik.htm
from another site
In 1818 George Cruikshank joined forces with Radical publisher and bookseller, William Hone,
would be cool if its the same george ;D
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Would be interesting if it was the same George....but don't think George the bookseller was still alive when William died late 1840. The surviving executors show as Joshua Evans and the name I can't decipher 100%. In this last last paragraph of the will, it looks like B/Darwood Banner ???
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oh well ;D
how about Harwood Banner, gentleman Accountant, liverpool (1851 census)
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That's about as close as I have seen! Would fit well with the Liverpool connections and his age to be William Fairclough's peer.
Added:
I think the name is not Harwood Banner but Harmood Banner, unusual name. He is well reported on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmood_Banner
www.stjamescemetery.co.uk/banner.htm
Lots of links on the family. A grandson of his was Sir John Sutherland Harmood Banner, first baronet (1847–1927), who amongst his many activities and accolades, was Mayor of Liverpool in 1912. A leading business figure.
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google books,
william fairclough, clerk in customs, 18 norton st, Liverpool 1824
(previously home to william lassell, builder of big telescopes)
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You realise with everything that has been found (huge amount!), we are still banging our heads trying to get past JBL's parents, Benjamin and Elizabeth (Collins) :'( :'( ;D
Monica
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we could just do with benjamins will, he must have had one, being a merchant ?
but where did he die, liverpool or worcs ?
and Elizabeths will, why did some of her money go to James Collins, and whats the flipping link between her and James ???
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a slight tangent,
JBL had a daughter Ada born aprox 1850 in Bow, but she has gone by the next census,
I can't find any record of her birth etc but there is a burial in All souls (where jbl's mother was buried) of an Ada georgiana Elizabeth Lloyd in 1853,
he later uses the names georgina (slight diff spelling)and elizabeth as 2 of his other daughters middle names,
is this burial 'our' Ada ?
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Dates all make sense. Little Ada shows as aged 3 years 11 months. With a burial date of 16 November 1853, born end of 1849. Fits with 1851 census doesn't it. Can't see a likely birth, except for a birth of an Eliza Lloyd, registered in 1st Qrt 1850, East London, Mddlx, V.2 Pg. 238 - can't see anything else that comes closer to Ada.
Any family Lloyds births that could let you confirm via the address given for Ada on the burial register?
Monica
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The address of Ada at time of burial, 18 great union st , st georges, southwark,
but all addresses between '51 and '61 are around Stepney.
I wondered if Elizabeth and William had a plot with room for more at All Souls,
don't know how to find out if other lloyds buried there.
another thing, Grenville was born '52 and Florence in '58 so in between how many others could there be, at least 1 was mentioned in '55 (the 4 mth old baby)
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just thinking about the bankruptcy in 1811, if that is our Benjamin that is mentioned, why is he in heligoland ? what was going on there ? and did he come back ? maybe he died there ?
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The wording of that 1811 Bankruptcy Order seems to imply that Benjamin Lloyd was linked in business to Joseph Lloyd and his partner, and at the time residing in Heligoland...which seems like another planet in respect of researching there!
We know that Benjamin Lloyd is referred to as a Merchant, so maybe he was there for trade/business of some form.
Monica
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just looking for anything about JBL,
looking back to the Collins side, I wondered about the name of Elizabeth's(jbl's mum) dad,
could he have been John Ballard Collins ?
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Have you found a John Ballard Collins?!
Monica :)
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not till a marriage in 1865,
where did that ballard bit come from ??
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Hi fallingonabruise
Just saw your posts re Lloyd London Mystery. I am descended from William Fairclough Lloyd, born 1825 Norwood Surrey, parents Joseph Lyon Lloyd and Sophia Eleanor Lyne. Other children are George Alfred b. 14 Nov 1815, Augustus Frederick 15 Jan 1817, Benjamin Smith 11 Jul 1818, Eleanor Sophia 21 Feb 1820, Joseph Lewingdon 19 Sep 1821, Sarah Blanchard 26 Jul 1823, Francis Hereford 30 Jan 1827, Henry Lyne 21 Sep 1828, Esther Jones 04 Jan 1831 and A. Gravelly 30 Nov 1832. This family came to Australia in the 1830's.
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Hello Janchat,
I have all those except the A. Gravelly one, :)
Is 'Lyon' defiantly Josephs middle name ? As he is the one that I need to connect to Benjamin Lloyd, my 3x great grandfather,
it's that next generation we need to go back, so it might turn out we are related :) so any info you might have about these lloyds would be most welcome.
:)
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Welcome to RootsChat from me too Janchat :)
The entry for this child has father as Lyon Lloyd:
HANNAH SOPHIA LLOYD Birth: 15 AUG 1801/ Christening: 29 JUL 1822 St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London,
Parents: LYON LLOYD and SOPHIA
But birth would be before Joseph and Sophia (Lyne) married in 1815.
Is there another entry?
Monica :)
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My William Fairclough Lloyd was in a Merchant business with Daniel Lewingdon Lloyd in Wollongong NSW from 1858 to 1861. I know Daniel was not a brother of William so I assume he is a cousin. Daniels death notice in the Sydney Morning Herald Thu 28 May 1896 reads: LLOYD, May 21st 1896 at his residence 40 Redfern Street Redfern, Daniel Lewingdon Lloyd, son (and only survivor of the late Daniel Lloyd of Elm Villa, Upton-on-Severn, Worcestershire, England, in his 69th year. Home papers please copy.
Does this help with your Daniel Lloyd? He could be the brother of my Joseph Lyne Lloyd. My Joseph was a Corn Factor in England in a company called Lloyd Fawell. Of information given to me by other family members he was also a Captain in the Royal Artillery 1813 - 1834, it also says that he was descended from an ancient family in Hereford Wales.
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I have a birthdate for Joseph Lyon Lloyd if that helps, b. 18 May 1777. After exhaustive searching I cannot find a death registered for Joseph in Australia. I know he was alive in 1838 but was not alive by January 1841 according to his daughter Eleanor Sophias Death notice.
Benjamin Smith Lloyd owned the company B S Lloyd & Co in London. The Lloyds were importing and exporting goods between Australia & England. Benjamin was the British part of this set up. He resided at "Sydney House" Belmont Park, Lee, London.
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Hi again, Janchat
thanks for your info, now to work out any conections !! please do add anything else you know as it seems like there are so many bits that are so close , but we just need that key !!!
I was looking at Benjamin Smith Lloyd's family last night, how terrible that he lost 3 young children within 2 weeks,
but another connection as they were all buried at Norwood cemetery,
hopefully MonicaLes will be alone soon, she's so much better than me at sorting this stuff out !! :D
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I was just looking too, also feel we are getting close, but now to try and unravel!
Daniel Lewingdon Lloyd married in 1852 in Islington to Harriet Tomlin, father Daniel, a gent. I can see here an entry for a 23 yr old Daniel Lewingdon Lloyd on the 1851 census. His birth place on the index shows as Upton Upon Severn, Worcestershire, occupation a shop man which fits well with the marriage entry where he is down as a draper. A B S LLoyd shows a witness to the marriage, likely Benjamin Smith Lloyd, son of Joseph and Sophia?
That link again on potential extended Lloyd line to Worcestershire.....
Monica
Added: Meant to add, can't see that 1851 entry on our friendly transcripts just on https://beta.familysearch.org/
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Bingo, 4 births registered in NSW to Daniel L & Harriet Lloyd, Edgar S 1865, Harriet L 1857, Alfred M 1867 and Agnes R 1861.
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I'm still going through the business side of things,
BS.Lloyd and co, business agency,
2 addresses
78 Queen Victoria street, London
40 King street, Cheapside London,
Francis Graham Lloyd (bsl's son) part of it as well as being director of Klondike Eldorado ltd and Mount Read Mining company ltd
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Arthur Lewington Lloyd born 9th aug looks like 1853. baptised sept 5th 1855
daniel lewington lloyd and harriet , occ, fancy ???
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I am wondering if we try and find out as much as possible about Daniel Lloyd Snr. whether we can connect the dots back to Benjamin and Joseph....he is certainly old enough to potentially be a brother to both. It is the parents to Benjamin and Joseph where we have the big wall at the moment.
Just posting these now or I will lose them again :P From 19th C Newspapers: Berrow's Worcester Journal:
Death: In the 9th year of his age, George Lewingdon Lloyd, eldest son of Mr Daniel Lloyd of Walton Cardiff near Tweskesbury.
Death: Feb 25, 1857 at Brighton, Eliza Sparry youngest daughter of the late Daniel Lloyd, Elm Villa, near Upton upon Severn.
From Google Books, there is a marriage notice in 1812:
Married at Worcester, Mr Daniel Lloyd, of Hanley Castle, to Miss Sparry, daughter of the late Mr T S of Walton Cardiff, near Tweskebury.
Just wondered whether there might be a Sparry connection given the name of daughter in the death notice (Eliza Sparry Lloyd).
Monica
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another business bit,
BS.Lloyd & co who represented John Fairfax & sons at cheapside since 1870's, was made bankrupt in 1915 by an injudicious tea deal.
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Found a death notice in the Sydney Morning Herald Mon 02 Jun 1873.
LLOYD - May 31st at her sons residence, Macquarie Street Sydney, Mary Ann, relict of the late Daniel Lloyd Esq., Elm Villa, Upton-on-Severn Worcestershire in her 68th year.
regards
Jan
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Hi Jan
I am just about to leave for a couple of weeks. Just some notes from searches last night:
Thomas Sparry married Ann Pearce in 1789. Had daughters and one son also called Thomas. Daughter Elizabeth married Daniel Lloyd, likely the marriage entry I found in 1812 in the Old Newpapers site. She died in 1821 and Daniel married her sister Mary Ann Sparry in 1823 (who must be the mother of Daniel Lowingdon Lloyd and perhaps the daughter Eliza Sparry Lloyd who died in 1857).
Monica
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Monica, if you are going on holidays, have a great time. Thank you for all your searching.
I have another death notice. SMH Mon 12 May 1873, LLOYD- on 26th February at the residence of BS Lloyd, Belmont Park, Lee, Kent, Mr FRANCIS LLOYD, late of Hanley Castle, Worcestershire in the 88th year of his age.
Benjamin Smith Lloyd was married in Sydney to Mary Bourne in 1847, she died in childbirth shortly after, though the daughter Mary survived, Benjamin returned to England to set up merchant business. In 09 Jul 1853 he married Sophia Ann youngest daughter of Francis LLOYD.
Could Francis LLOYD be another brother of Joseph and Daniel, that would mean that Benjamin married his cousin.
Jan
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Not sure whether in all your info you already have this - if so, I do apologise! But Sophia A Lloyd is here with her father Francis HO107; Piece: 1962; Folio: 172; Page: 43 Interesting that Francis appears to be a British Wine Maker....
Alvin St, Gloucester St John the Baptist
Francis Lloyd Head Mar 63 British Wine Maker bn Clerkenwell, Worcester
Maria Lloyd Wife Mar 64 bn Hereford
Ann Lloyd Visitor Wid 74 (Heavily crossed over) Annuitant bn Hereford
Sophia A Lloyd Dau S 22 Governess bn Worcestershire
Mary Walker serv 16 House servant bn Gloucestershire Sandhurst
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Sophia Ann Lloyd was ch 17 Nov 1829 at Upper Meeting House, Tewkesbury to Francis Lloyd and Maria Gammon
Other children:
John Acton Lloyd bn 4 Jan 1823 ch 19 jan 1824
Edmund Lloyd bn 3 Jun 1821 ch 19 Jan 1824
George Lloyd bn 28 Jun 1825 ch 6 Sept 1825
Maria Lloyd bn 10 Sept 1817 ch 19 Jan1824
Robert Jones Lloyd bn 30 May 1816 ch 19 Jan 1824
Francis Lloyd bn 23 jan 1819 ch 19Jan 1824
Francis Lloyd married Maria Gammon 5 Oct 1815 Bengeworth, Worcester
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BSL and Sophia are here in 1861 RG9; Piece: 400; Folio: 24; Page: 6
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I know Norwood cemetery has featured heavily in this thread, so I thought I would add this snippet - Robert Jones Lloyd - brother of Sophia and son of Francis - was buried in Norwood Cemetery 30 Mar 1893
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just a quickie :D
thanks for the input from spidermonkey and janchat,
i will look at it properly later tonight, bit busy at the mo, but didn't want you to think i didn't appreciate your help ;)
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Have found another newspaper entry, for JBL
The Morning Post (London, England), Saturday, May 03, 1856; pg. 6; Issue 25689.
and this is the threatening letter that got JBL sent back to prison;
to, Joshua Evans, Esq, Commissioner of Bankruptcy, Basinghall st, city.
Sir,
I have struggled hard to get into employment of the humblest description, and honestly support my family, since my release from Holloway, but, alas ! in vain,
I can no longer witness the distress of the mother and my children, which I am totally unable to alleviate.
Our destitution is so intense, and the agony of my mind is so great that madness must ensue, and then I may commit some rash act towards you, myself or society,
which I am quite incapable of while reason holds her sway; therefore, for your own safety, have me again locked up.
I will not again seek release, but in the grave, whither mental anguish is fast carring me.
If you do not attend to this, sir, worse will assuredly come, and on your head, after this warning, be the evil.
You cannot desire another public harrowing scene in your court, neither do I, but await my arrest as a mercy and a kindness,
I remain, sir, your obedient and unhappy godson,
J.B.Lloyd
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Hi there, that seems abit intense. Most of the Lloyds were quite affluent. They fell on hard times but always seemed to bounce back. Surely they would also help each other out when they fell on hard times. John Ballard signs this letter, 'your obedient and unhappy godson'. Does this mean that Joshua Evans was his god father? What happened to John Ballard's family after he went back to jail?
regards
Jan
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I have another piece of family information, not substantiated though. In 1856 William Fairclough LLOYD returned to England for business purposes, while there he met up with 3 other brothers and at the family home in Norwood Surrey they were each presented with a number of old family relics presented by their uncle the Rev W F LLOYD. William Fairclough received a very large leather bound bible dated 1679 which was handed down from generation to generation and used in family worship in the LLOYDS household in the family home in Hereford Wales. (I haven't seen it) WF also spent some time with his Uncle "the Rev Henry Welsford" of Tewkesbury Cathedral who occupied the pulpit of this church for 50 years. (I must say that on WF's return to Australia his next son was named Henry Welsford) These are the words of my Great grandmother who was infirm for many years before her death, she left many handwritten notes of her memoirs.
Many of our early newspapers in Australia have now been digitised and are available online at this link http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper do you have something similar in Britain, regards Jan
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who was your great gran ?
what happened to the bible ?
Rev Henry Welsford was William fairclough lloyd's brother's father in law( joseph lewingdons wife, mercy welsford's dad)
I wonder who the Rev WF.Lloyd is, need to investigate that.
As for newspapers online, we have Gales 19th Century
British Library Newspapers but you need either a subscription or to join a library that has .,
theres the london gazette, http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/ there are others too but can't think of anymore at the minute.
Yes Joshua Evans was JBL's godfather, most of his family seemed to have survived , have a read through all of this thread, its all in there ;)
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Thanks for all that information I was wondering what happened to Joseph lewingdon, He must have also returned to England. I was wondering how Henry Welsford fitted into the picture.
My Great grandmother was Sarah Threkeld Lloyd, daughter of William Fairclough and Caroline Flegg. The bible was probably handed down to the eldest son, who would be Charles Henry Lloyd, but I haven't been able to locate him at all. He was born in Hobart Tasmania in 1847, he was still living in 1897 when William Fairclough died as he was named on the death certificate but not in any of the newspaper notices, I therefore think that he was not living in NSW or maybe even Australia.
Many thanks for all you information.
regards
Jan
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Janchat, I have sent you a private message :)
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happy Birthday JBL , 203 today :)
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(http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/lloydraistrick/cruickshank.jpg)
found the image for Elizabeth and Wililam Faircloughs marriage in the new Ancestry liverpool parish records, it has the above signature of George Cruickshank, whom is described in Williams will in 1820s as a book seller, to me it looks rather artistic with all the swirly bits underneath, could it be THE George Cruickshank the cartoonist/illustrator ??
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I have been searching, searching , searching.................... On Joseph Lyon Lloyd's marriage certificate to Sophia Eleanor Lyne, one of the witnesses is a Sophia Lloyd. So I have been working on the assumption that this Sophia is his mother. I have come across a Sophia Hone marriage to William Lloyd at Clerkenwell St James in 28 March 1775. Joseph was born 1777.
http://search.ancestry.com.au/iexec?htx=View&r=5544&dbid=1623&iid=31280_199033-00463&fn=Sophia&ln=Hone&st=d&ssrc=&pid=7885236
I have tried using ancestry and igi but cannot find any children from this union. Can you help?
kind regards Jan
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Hi Jan
the link doesn't work unless we have a subscription to ancestry.com.au :-\
Dawn
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I have been searching, searching , searching.................... On Joseph Lyon Lloyd's marriage certificate to Sophia Eleanor Lyne, one of the witnesses is a Sophia Lloyd. So I have been working on the assumption that this Sophia is his mother. I have come across a Sophia Hone marriage to William Lloyd at Clerkenwell St James in 28 March 1775. Joseph was born 1777.
http://search.ancestry.com.au/iexec?htx=View&r=5544&dbid=1623&iid=31280_199033-00463&fn=Sophia&ln=Hone&st=d&ssrc=&pid=7885236
I have tried using ancestry and igi but cannot find any children from this union. Can you help?
kind regards Jan
I think that unless you get something like a baptism record for Joseph Lyon Lloyd, that tells his parents names, and where he was born, you would have to go through every Sophia who married a Lloyd in the whole country, as he wasn't necessarily born in the London area, plus he could have been the last child born to his parents, maybe 10, 15 yrs after they were married.
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Hi all
Happy New Year.......................
I have just resumed this search for LLOYD and came across another looking for Daniel Lewingdon LLOYD. You can look at the thread,
http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.britisles.wales.general/7672.1.1.1/mb.ashx
Look like he may have found the parents of our LLOYD
regards
Jan
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Happy new year Jan :)
I have posted on that thread of yours, to see if Tony has any ideas about all this :)
cheers
Andria
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At last a bit of new info about JBL, we have found out where his name comes from, but not why or who this bloke is !
I've been give a transcribed will (yay no need to struggle to read it ! ) of a John Ballard of Worcs, from a 'one name' family historian (thank you so much !)
heres a snippet,
upon trust to put out at interest upon government or real security in their own names or in the names of the survivors or survivor of them the sum of one thousand two hundred pounds and from time to time to receive and pay the interest thereof unto Elizabeth the wife of Benjamin Lloyd late of Liverpool merchant and her assigns during her natural life and her receipt alone notwithstanding her coverture to be a sufficient discharge for the same and not be subject or liable to the debts control or engagements of her present or any future husband and after her decease upon trust to pay the said sum of one thousand and two hundred pounds unto her son John Ballard Lloyd when he shall attain at the age of twenty one years and meanwhile to apply the interest in his maintenance and education and in case he shall die under twenty one years I desire the same sum of one thousand two hundred pounds may sink into and form part of the residue of my estate for the benefit of my residuary legatees and upon further trust to place out at interest upon government or real security the sum of eight hundred pounds in the names of my said trustees or the survivors or survivor of them and apply the interest from time to time in the support maintenance and education of the before named John Ballard Lloyd until he attain the age of twenty one and upon attaining that age in trust to pay unto him the said sum of eight hundred pounds but in case he shall depart this life under that age the same to sink into and form part of my residuary estate..
it goes on to give JBL a further £200 towards an education or apprenticeship and rents/ use of a property etc etc to Elizabeth lloyd.
so who was John Ballard ??
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Just found some new information re Lloyds at Hanley Castle.
From the Berrow newspaper in Worcestershire.
Lloyd Benjamin 29/04/1819 @ Russia Son of My.Lloyd of Hanley Castle.
(This is probably a son of Benjamin Lloyd Snr)
Lloyd Mrs 06/01/1820 Hanley Castle Worcestershire wife of Mr B Lloyd
Benjamin Lloyd snr and wife Sophia have a plaque on the Baptist Chapel at Upton upon Severn which has:
Benjamin Lloyd Deacon Upton Baptist Church for 50 years. Died Jan 31 1834 aged 90. Sophia wife of above died 28 Dec 1819 age 76.
It is hoped that The Berrows death refers to the son of Benjamin snr.
To find this out the baptist records which are at the Worcester Records office:
Here is a reply from this office
"I have searched through the catalogues to our collections and amongst our un-catalogued material there is a deposit BA 14252 which contains a register of births and burials from 1694 to 1866 and minutes from 1793 to 1872. "
The office is moving and not open until July this year.
The Mrs Lloyd would seem to refer to Benjamin Lloyd snr wife whose death is recorded on the plaque.
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Oh my, TTT (Welcome to RootsChat by the way ;D).
Lloyd Benjamin 29/04/1819 @ Russia Son of My.Lloyd of Hanley Castle
From what you are looking at, could this possibly be his death notice?
Wife Elizabeth Collins remarried pretty sharpish in May 1819 in Liverpool (William Fairclough, an HMS Customs man).
Monica
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Sorry , yes both were death notices.
Tony
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Wow, Tony. Andria will be jumping up and down on this news from you! This thread and search (some of it off line, even though it is so long here now) has been on going for two and a half years.
Andria, at last. Likely the connection back to Benjamin Lloyd and Sophia Smith :o
The question now...how did he die in Russia ??? Last we heard he was off to Heligoland (no wonder there are no more children to the marriage that we can find!).
Monica
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Have stopped jumping now ;D
Hello again Tony and Monica,
I mentioned to Tony in email about that will of John Ballard, does 'late of liverpool, mean 'dead' or just , 'used to be in', but then again Elizabeth is not refered to as a 'widow of Benjamin' , so if Ben was a merchant, and he went to heligoland in 1811, then possibly died in Russia, could he have been something to do with actually sailing ships, which may be why JBL was sent to be a midshipman when he was 16?
plus I was thinking how did Elizabeth get to know William Fairclough ? customs officer =port/ships ?
so if Ben has disappeared off , Elizabeth gets friendly with William, no news about Ben as he's off sailing the world, until 1819, he's dead, and within a month shes shacked up with William , its a love story, lol
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Life is precious ::) ;D Love story it must be!
By this point (1819), Elizabeth, and son John, would have been provided for by the settlement of John Ballard's will from 1817.
I am feeling slightly rubik cubed here! A lot of new pieces now, how do they all fit?!
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Hi Guys,
Glad to see some happiness.
When "late" is used in respect of a place it means 'has been recently living' but not necessarily his original or other address. This is good as it shows he came from elsewhere(Hanley!).
If it is used re a person it means deceased ie the late Mr....
The key word is "of".
What a shame they did not say Mr B Lloyd, that would have really settled it for me.
The births I have for Benjamin snr were obtained from the private books of the Baptist Church in Upton held by a retired Rev. They were in his private home. Visited there several years ago.
I did not see a Benjamin Lloyd as one of the sons. This does not mean he was not a son.
I will be going back in Sept/Oct and will try and get another look at them.
I stressed to him they should be in the Worcester records office but he was not comfortable with that.
Need one wee bit more info to get JBL as a blood relly.
Tony
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Re Russia,
I believe that Russia may have been an English name for Heliogland. I understand it was in Prussia or he may have been visiting real Russia and died there.
The Demark records are very good for their colonies but could not find him in census or Wills. Maybe trying to keep a low profile.
Tony
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Hi Tony
Glad to see someone as enthusiastic as Andria and I on this lot (which I have adopted as mine ;D).
We have the following details for Benjamin and wife Elizabeth Collins:
B & E marriage 6 MAY 1802 St Michael, Worcester, Worcester
JBL’s christening 22 Dec 1807 St Clement Worcester
And hopefully other births and deaths for their children you would think given the gap at least from marriage to JBL's birth.
What would be the best way for Andria to try and get further info on these from your experience of these records for this area?
The hope is that there may be relevant witness/sponsors names that could help firm things up...
Monica
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I have found the best way is to visit the records office and go thru the parish registers of all the local parishes in case they moved around especially in Worcester city. In this case it would be Upton(hanley), Worcester, Liverpool.
If they were strong Baptists the records may be in the Baptist Chapel minute books and they are often not in the public arena. In the Upton minute books they entered each year or so the list of parishioners which was abig help. I am sure due to JBL life style he would feature in the minute books if he was not evicted from the Chapel(they called it "REMOVED"). You could get removed for small misdemeanors particularly drinking.
Not sure if JBL remained a Baptist. The Worc office is cloded until July.
Tony
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Thanks for the background Tony :) Andria, does look like a personal search would be required.
Tony, is the Worcester Records Office the only custodian of these registers from what you say (thinking here of the Worcestershire Library and History Centre as a possible source of info that I was googling today for Andria)?
Monica
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A few years ago the Records Office shifted many records from their office to the Worc Library and Family History Centre.
I believe they would be at the Records Office(Archives).
Best to emailthe librarian.
Tony
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Thanks Tony :) Would be good to find a family member acting as witness to the marriage to get formal confirmation of Benjamin Jnr.'s links to the Hanley Castle family.
Monica
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A trip to worcester is not likely to happen so whats my next move, I'm lost already !
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Maybe an email to the librarian as Tony suggest at the Worc Library and Family History Centre?
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Right I shall get onto that ;D
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I have asked the Archives what the cost of copying the whole file etc and posting to NZ.
So you can consider taking a breath and awaiting their reply. Unless you know a Worcester city person who could go into the Office and ask.
They may say its closed for access to records until the new office opens in July.
Tony
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I emailed the family history group but they couldn't help ???
Looks like John Ballard was the mayor of Worcs in 1785 +1786
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Hi all,
Here's my postulation having seen all the info to date and particularly the Will of John Ballard a prominent person in Worcester. He had a Will in which he left money to a married woman and her son JBL (no relationship mentioned to either which is unusual). He also was an Anglican not a Baptist.
Scenario One.
Elizabeth Collins wife of Benjamin Lloyd marriage 1802 became pregnant to John Ballard in 1807 and had a son JBL.
Scenario Two.
Elizabeth mother of JBL was not Elizabeth Collins of Benjamin Lloyd marriage of 1802 but was single lady who got pregnant to JB in 1807 and was married off to a Benjamin Lloyd whose marriage certificate is not yet to hand.
In both scenarios there were no other JB children nor were there any Benjamin Lloyd children.
It is very very rare that a substantial portion of a Will is left to a married person whose relationship to the deceased is not specified/stated in the Will.
I suggest that Elizabeth after getting pregnant to JB married Benjamin Lloyd for convienience and protection for both her and the fathers name.
Benjamin left and went to live in Heligoland/Russia soon after.
What is a good clue is that JB left money also to JBL via Elizabeth.
It was common to leave a few $ to staff but that relationship was always stated. JBL was christened in the Anglican church not a Baptist chapel of which the Lloyds of Hanley Castle were strong members.
Thus in either scenario JBL has no Lloyd blood.
Happy to bat this around, look forward to hearing from all.
Tony
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In that case, John Ballard must have been the father of all Mary Harris's children too even the ones that hadn't been born yet ,and Sarah Weavers ! ;D
the will in brief,
Elizabeth gets £1200. JBL gets £800
£2000, to Mary Harris wife of Mr Harris , ships carpenter, and £1000, her son and £500 daughter and £500 to any other children she had.
then Elizabeth get another £100, Mary gets £300, £600 to the late Sarah weavers children,
then about another 30 random people get a few hundred apeice, then Elizabeth gets to share the profits and rents of a house with his brothers servant ?
other points re baptism /christening
Commissioner Joshua Evans states that JBL's father was a Presbyterian and Elizabeth had JBL re done in 1817 to be church of England
JBL says he is due revisionary interest from the £1200 from his grandfathers will
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Funny you should say that as Mrs Harris's son John Byron was actually John Ballard Byron!
Re the religion. If JBL's father was a Presbytarian then it would appear that it was not a Hanley Castle Lloyd related to my lot as they were all baptists!
Tony
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Just a point re the JB legacies. Elizabeth only got the use of the 1200pounds for her life and upon her decease it was to pass to her son JBL along with other legacies for JBL.
As you say "JBL says he is due revisionary interest from the £1200 from his grandfathers will ".
As we know Benjamin Lloyd of Hanley Castle did not die until 1834 aged 90years so cant be the grandfather in question.
Tony
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Talking about children being born out of marriage etc....
Leaving aside the Lloyds for a moment ::), there is always the possibility that Elizabeth Collins was an illegitimate daughter of JB. We know nothing about her. Might explain better why she features at all on the will with her son JBL. Could also make some sense of why JBL referred to 'the revisionary interest from the £1200 from his grandfathers will'. The grandfather need not be a LLoyd or a Collins....
Andria, did the family pedigree info you got Paul support JB being born in the 1740s? We have a potential reference in google books to JB's death in 1817, aged 71 here www.rootschat.com/links/0jvb/ (link shrunk).
Monica
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Just a point re the JB legacies. Elizabeth only got the use of the 1200pounds for her life and upon her decease it was to pass to her son JBL along with other legacies for JBL.
As you say "JBL says he is due revisionary interest from the £1200 from his grandfathers will ".
As we know Benjamin Lloyd of Hanley Castle did not die until 1834 aged 90years so cant be the grandfather in question.
Tony
JBL said this in 1855, (his mother had died in 1844)
or he could have said Godfather ??
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Andria, did the family pedigree info you got Paul support JB being born in the 1740s? We have a potential reference in google books to JB's death in 1817, aged 71 here www.rootschat.com/links/0jvb/ (link shrunk).
Monica
Paul hadn't put a death date in but Tony had a ref to JB dying
Ballard John 10/07/1817 72 Wick Worcestershire Mayor of Worcester
and this ties in with his will being proved in august 1817
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Funny you should say that as Mrs Harris's son John Byron was actually John Ballard Byron!
Re the religion. If JBL's father was a Presbytarian then it would appear that it was not a Hanley Castle Lloyd related to my lot as they were all baptists!
Tony
This was from the newspaper report 36 years after the event , maybe Joshua Evans got his religeons mixed up, plus we can only go by what the reporters thought they heard ????
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How baptist were they though :-\
If we are now happy that Joseph Lloyd (with or without the Lyon in the middle!) was son of Bejamin and Sophia (Smith), and together with second wife Sophia Eleanor had their children christened in London at:
St Martin in the Fields, Westminster
Christ Church, Southwark
St Luke, Finsbury
I am rubbish at religious denominations :P, but I am sure these are stardard Church of England churches.
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I had John Ballard born in 1752 and his brother Philip in 1755 both sons of John B and Margaret Dowding.
I agree that Elizabeth Collins could be the illigitimate dau of John Ballard. It could follow then that Mrs Harris is likewise!
I rather think that JBL was bought up to believe that JB was his grandfather to save everyones face but I reserve final judgement until I can find a Will that supports the 1200 pounds originating from JB's father or JBL's maternal grandfather.
In my view it is likely that JB as mayor of Worcester was a self made man and generated the wealth not his father.
Tony
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just a quicky, John B(senior) who was married to Margaret Dowding died in 1753 so couldn't have had Phillip if he was born in 1755
going by all the other evidence JB was born 1745
and it was JB(senior) who bought the Lower Court Manor that he passed on to JB
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Hi Tony :)
This is the line I think we have been looking for the Ballards (from Suckley/Suckly), for John Ballard and wife Hanna(h):
http://www.paul-ballard.com/pedigrees/ui26.htm#a20
http://www.paul-ballard.com/pedigrees/p30.htm#i16496
http://members.multimania.co.uk/AdrianBallard/WORCESTERSHIRE_wills.htm (likely Will entry for other brother Richard).
Funny story here on Wills relating to wills & things (and making sure you are always nice and polite ;D):
When John Ballard, who bought, Lower Court and Philip Ballard, who inherited the Berrow were paying a call on their father John Ballard, husband of Hanna, the old man caught sight in a mirror of Philip grimacing to his brother about his father, forthwith brother John Ballard received the lions share of the properties. Whether this is true or not, when John, son of the above died, his will provided for a thousand pounds to be given to his kinsman at the Berrow.
http://members.multimania.co.uk/AdrianBallard/HEREFORDSHIRE_ballard4.htm
This Ballard line look to have been noted members of the local community. Land/property owners and engaged in all kinds of enterprise.
Monica :)
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just had a reply on the Worcs forum here, Nemo very kindly had a look for us,
Hi
I checked out the marriage of Benjamin Lloyd to Elizabeth Collins. It didn’t take place at St Michaels, but at Worcester, St Nicholas! They were both “of this parish” and the witnesses were “Saml Higgins” and “J H Smith”.
The couple married by licence, so I had a look at that.
“5th May 1802 Appeared personally Benjamin Lloyd of the parish of St Nicholas in the City and Diocese of Worcester Gent”. The other man who appeared with Benjamin was John Smith of “St Swithins in the same city Draper”. (He’s probably the J H Smith, who was a witness at the marriage)
Benjamin was bachelor and Elizabeth a spinster. Both he and Elizabeth were aged “twenty one years and upwards” and that’s about it.
I also checked John Ballard Lloyd’s baptism, but that just gave the date and parents names. Sorry there wasn’t time to check for siblings.
Nemo
get googling !!
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http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bygAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA411&dq=j.h.smith+,+draper,+worcester+uk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QikfT8H1OYLNhAe9xaHoDQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=j.h.smith%20%2C%20draper%2C%20worcester%20uk&f=false
Married at Worcester, 1805, J.H,Smith, woolen draper and Miss Francis of Temple Laughern
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Just to add more info from the wonderful Nemo ;D
I have had a further look at the Benjamin and Elizabeth Lloyd nee Collins conundrum. I hope that none of this has already come up under your Beginners Forum query “London Mystery” which is 28 pages - and still growing!
1799 – London Gazette states
“Notice is hereby given, that the Partnership lately subsisting between Benjamin Lloyd and Robert Jones, of Worcester, Grocers and Tea-Dealers, under the Firm of Lloyd and Jones, is this Day dissolved by mutual Consent. All Persons indebted to the said Partnership are requested immediately to pay their respective Debts to either of the said Parties. Benjamin Lloyd. Robert Jones.
(Neither man appears in the Worcester Royal Directory for 1794)
In 1802 Benjamin Lloyd Gent (this might have been the above BL) married Elizabeth Collins at St Nicholas, Worcester. There is no further reference to Benjamin, Elizabeth or any children’s baptisms or burials from 1802 to 1819, the date you have for BL dying in Heligoland. From “London Mystery” it seems possible that the same Benjamin Lloyd had undertaken a new enterprise as a Merchant in Liverpool where he was declared a bankrupt in 1806. (Northampton Mercury Saturday 1 March 1806) A year later there was talk of a dividend being paid (Morning Chronicle 4 March 1807)
In the same year 1807 John Ballard Lloyd was baptised at St Clements church in Worcester.There are no further baptisms or burials for JBL’s family in St Clement parish between 1802 and 1819, the year Benjamin Lloyd died in Heligoland.
John Ballard Lloyd is mentioned along with his mother in John Ballard’s 1817 will. In the 1794 Directory there was a John Ballard who was a grocer at 64 Broad Street. This may have been the John Ballard who died in 1817 when he was 72 years old - and was Mayor? The funeral took place at St John’s church, although he was buried in the graveyard at St Oswald’s Hospital. The chapel was a popular place for bapts marriages and burials. St John’s parish is on the west side of the river. This would have been the parish church for JB’s home being at LOWER Wick, rather than Wick which is near Pershore and seems unlikely to have been where he was living at the time of his death. JB’s will was proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury
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Making steady progress but will keep powder dry.
Found this today which is a Lloyd/Ballard coincidence!
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Gosh, a lot of progress there on this period in Worcester! Great summary and research of events Nemo which give a much better grasp of events at this time.
Tony...we like steady progress!
Just a point regarding possible age/birth year for Benjamin Lloyd. Tony, do you have an estimate/actual year when Benjamin Snr. and Sophia Smith married? From the info that Nemo has posted re that 1799 London Gazette notice, if it is the same Benjamin Lloyd, just trying to guess at his birth year and whether this would fit with him being a son of Benjamin and Sophia.
Monica
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can't stop, got to go out but found this.
and had twelve children. Through this combination of circumstances he ran through his money, and Edward I, who was born in 1791, had to begin on a more laborious rung of the ladder. At the age of twelve he was apprenticed to his cousins, Nathaniel and Edward Lloyd, of the Postlip paper mills at Winchcombe, the forerunner of the well-known firm of Edward Lloyd,
http://www.binson.co.uk/robinsons/robinsons.htm#acontent
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have been looking into the life of John Ballard Byron in the hope it might shed a few clues for our mystery,
found this report about him,
articles against a churchwarden for " quarrelling, chiding, and brawling by words," and for "smiting"
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PmwDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA396&dq=john+ballard+byron&hl=en&sa=X&ei=N1EwT7P9G9Lt8QOgyMT7Dg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=john%20ballard%20byron&f=false
;D
he was a president in the Freemasons too (1844) and a director of the Richmond railway compay !
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Hi all
The Robert Jones who appeared in the London Gazette 1799 with Benjamin Lloyd in regard to the co. Lloyd & Jones being dissolved may have been ( probably was) the husband of Esther LLOYD b.1774 who married Robert JONES on 25 Dec 1797 at Hanley Castle. After his death she then married John ACTON. Esther was the sister of Benjamin, William Joseph etc etc.
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Hi again Jan,
I'm lost ;D
where did Esther come from ? I can find Ester jones lloyd, Josephs and Sophias daughter.
It's getting rather complicated isn't it !! ;D
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Hi
Jan means that Esther Lloyd who married Robert Jones in 1797 was the sister of Benjamin Lloyd, her husband’s partner in Lloyd & Jones Grocers and Tea dealers of Worcester. The partnership was dissolved in 1799. Robert Jones died (when?) and Mrs Esther Jones nee Lloyd married John Acton at All Saints Worcester. I can look at the records for that marriage in the next two weeks.
You were trying to connect the Benjamin Lloyd who married Elizabeth Collins (mother of John Ballard Lloyd) in Worcester to the Benjamin Lloyd in Liverpool. The announcement of the marriage of Benjamin Lloyd to Elizabeth Collins at St Nicholas church Worcester in the Worcestershire Herald newspaper on May 6th 1802 states that he was a “merchant of Liverpool “and she was “of this city”.
You already know that Benjamin Lloyd, Elizabeth’s husband died in 1819 in Heligoland/Russia. The local Worcester newspaper obituary reported his death in Russia and that he was the son of Mr Lloyd of Hanley Castle near Upton on Severn. I checked the Land Tax records for Hanley Castle for 1819/20 and found that the name of Benjamin Lloyd appeared three times, the other Lloyd was Enoch and I have never managed to find a link between your Lloyds and the Enoch Lloyd dynasty of more Enoch Lloyds , in which I am interested.
When the Baptist Deacon Benjamin Lloyd died in 1834 in his 91st year, the Baptist Magazine reported that he lived at Hanley Castle and died in the house that he had lived in nearly all his life. It would appear that Benjamin Lloyd (the Baptist Deacon) mentioned in the Land Tax records was the father of Benjamin Lloyd of Liverpool.
HTH
Nemo
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Thanks for all that Nemo, I am still a bit lost on where Esther and William joseph have come from tho,
as I can't remember any mention of them so far,
so as far as I can work out the children of Deacon Benjamin are,
Benjamin,
Joseph,
Daniel,
Edmund,
Charles,
Francis,
Sophia,
Esther, ?
would these all be found as baptisms or was there a will of Deacon Ben ?
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Hi
I’ll have a look to see if a will was proved at Worcester and if it has survived.
I don’t have access to the Upton-on-Severn Baptist's records. Can you ask Jan who provided you with the list of Benjamin and Sophia’s children to confirm that there was a daughter Esther - and son William.
Nemo
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These are the children of Benjamin Lloyd and Sophia Smith
1 Benjamin Lloyd b: Abt. 1744 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 31 Jan 1834 in Upton on Severn, Worcestershire, England Age at death: 90 est.
.. +Sophia Smith b: Abt. 1743 Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire, England m: Bef. 1771 d: 28 Dec 1819 in Upton on Severn, Worcestershire, England Age at death: 76 est.
........ 2 William Lloyd b: 13 Sep 1771 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 28 Dec 1839 in Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Age at death: 68
............ +Ann Someone
........ 2 Benjamin Lloyd b: Bet. Jul 1772 - Dec 1773 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 1819 in Russia Age at death: 47 est.
............ +Elizabeth Collins m: 06 May 1802 St Nicholas, Worcester, England
........ 2 [1] Esther Lloyd b: 01 Sep 1774 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 09 Dec 1844 in Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Age at death: 70
............ +Robert Jones m: 25 Dec 1797 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: Bef. 1832 Age at death: ?
........ *2nd Husband of [1] Esther Lloyd:
............ +John Acton b: 1759 Evesham, Worcestershire, England m: 31 Jul 1832 All Saints, Worcester, England d: 28 Nov 1833 in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England Age at death: 74 est.
........ 2 [2] Joseph Lloyd b: 18 May 1776 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 21 Feb 1834 in London, England Age at death: 57
............ +Unknown
........ *2nd Wife of [2] Joseph Lloyd:
............ +Sophia Eleanor Lyne b: 29 Sep 1795 St James, Clerkenwell, London, England m: 11 Jan 1815 St Martins in the Fields, London, England d: 12 Sep 1866 in Kirribilli, St Leonards, Sydney, Australia Age at death: 70
........ 2 John Lloyd b: 05 Apr 1778 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England
........ 2 [3] Daniel Lloyd b: 09 Jun 1779 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 22 Jul 1839 in Upton on Severn, Worcestershire, England Age at death: 60
............ +Elizabeth Sparry b: 25 May 1791 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England m: 1812 Worcester, England d: 12 Oct 1821 in Walton Cardiff, Gloucestershire, England Age at death: 30
........ *2nd Wife of [3] Daniel Lloyd:
............ +Mary Anne Sparry b: 21 Aug 1802 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England m: 23 Sep 1823 All Saints, Worcester, Worcestershire, England d: 31 May 1873 in Sydney, NSW, Australia Age at death: 70
........ 2 George Lewington Lloyd b: 23 Oct 1780 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England
........ 2 Edmund Lloyd b: 08 Jan 1782 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 28 May 1853 in Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England Age at death: 71
........ 2 Charles Lloyd b: 08 Apr 1783 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 28 Jul 1859 in Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Age at death: 76
........ 2 Francis Lloyd b: 22 Feb 1786 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 26 Feb 1873 in Belmont Park, Lee, Kent, England Age at death: 87
............ +Maria Gammon b: Abt. 1787 Herefordshire m: 05 Oct 1815 Bengeworth, Worcestershire, England d: Bet. 1851 - 1861 Age at death: 64 est.
........ 2 Sophia Lloyd b: 30 Sep 1787 Hanley Castle, Worcestershire, England d: 1859 in Shipston on Stour, Gloucestershire, England Age at death: 72 est.
............ +John Reynolds b: Abt. 1776 Little Rissington, Gloucestershire, England d: 1854 Age at death: 78 est.
Tony
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wow, thanks for that Tony ! that must have taken a lot of research !!! ;D
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thanks Nemo, would be brilliant if there is a will ;D
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RE: Esther
From Bennett's Tewkesbury Register and Magazine - Vol 2
1844 - Dec. 9 - In High Street, aged 70, Esther, relict of John Acton, Esq. formerly of Bengeworth, and eldest daughter of the late Mr. Benjamin Lloyd, of Hanley Castle.
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thanks for that Yak3 ;D
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A Lloyd connection:-
Will of Thomas Lloyd of Twyning
Gloucester Archives Ref: 1789/111
To Uncle Benjamin Lloyd of Hanley Castle and brother John Lloyd of Twyning all household goods, china, linnen, implements of husbandry, stock, crop, cattle, chattels and personal estate upon trust to sell and dispose of my debts and deliver surplus to my dear wife.
All my messuage called the Talbot in Upton on Severn with the garden ground and meadow land belonging now in possession of Mr Rickards and Mr Sands Gardener or one of them and
All that messuage adjoining the Talbot in possession of Mr Hinton and all other messuages etc. in Upton on Severn of which I am seized`as Heir at Law to my late mother deceased - subject to the estate for life of my father Mr Daniel Lloyd therein who holds same for life as tenant - upon trust for education of my children:
Daniel; Thomas; Sarah and John - until they are 21.
Benjamin Lloyd and John Lloyd to be joint executors and guardians of children.
Signed 21st January 1789
Witnesses: Wakeman Long; Josiah Baylis; John Elton
Proved: 1st August 1789.
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Thanks again Yak, really apreciate all these brilliant bits you're finding ;D
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Just found another record (on find my past free week )which adds to the tale of good old John Ballard LLoyd
First name(s) John Ballard
Last name Lloyd
Court session year 1874
Birth year 1805
Age 69
Occupation Traveller
Conviction place Wandsworth
Conviction date 1874
Source Wandsworth Prison, Surrey: Register Of Prisoners
hair - grey
eyes - grey
height - 5'' 9
weight - 13 stone
complexion - fresh
marks - Anchor on right arm, 2 hearts on left arm, skin disease on face
offence - Refusing to work in a workhouse
sentence - 14 days
religion, - latter day saints
this must be my John, I wonder if he got those tattoos in Singapore ? and always the rebel, refusing to work in the workhouse, ;D but he was a good weight tho ? obviously not starving ?
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Certainly must be him ;D He showed at the Wandsworth and Clapham Union Workhouse in 1871 didn't he?
At least one death entry in 1877 that could be his in Wandsworth reg area isn't there - John LLOYD aged 70 in Wandsworth 1d/325.
Great to have a description on him.
Monica :)
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I've taken the plunge and ordered that death cert, so fingers crossed it might have something to link to him, I would love to work out where he was buried to finally close his story :)
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This would be really oddly weird!
There is a burial register entry showing for a John Lloyd on a/try who was buried on 8 August 1877. He is showing as aged 78. His residence shows there as the Union Workhouse. His burial place is given as St Mary's Battersea. Can't see a civil entry for this death, just the one we have in 3rd Qrt 1877 with the John Lloyd given as age 70.
I know this cemetery really well. I used to take the children when they were toddlers there as it was a safe place for them to potter and toddle! It is a lovely, small well kept cemetery that I enjoy walking through ::) Currently I walk through it with our two new puppies ;D
This is St Mary's Church in the heart of north Battersea by the river https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary%27s_Church,_Battersea The burial ground for the church is actually not next to it but in a corner by Battersea Rise, close to Wandsworth Common https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary%27s_Cemetery,_Wandsworth
I wonder how we could be more certain? Could this be the right JBL? I hope so :)
Monica
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That would be really spooky, if for all these years you have been walking past him :o
I saw that entry for the burial, I would assume theres a big plot in the grave yard where they put the ex residents of the workhouse, I wonder if theres a way of finding out where ? and there must be a record of him going in the workhouse in 1877 ?
:)
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I checked
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Wandsworth/
and the LMA catalogue
but I don't think any records survive for St John's Hill from the 1870's.
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Thanks Dawnsh :) thats a shame that theres no records :(
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I popped in to the Wandsworth Local History and Heritage Archives located at Battersea Library...as one does... ::)
They hold the microfilms for burials at St Mary's Cemetery (also known as the Battersea Rise Cemetery).
The 1877 burial entry for 8 August 1877 a little different to what showed on A/try but I would say certainly the same entry:
John Lloyd, 70 years (not 78). Died at the Infirmary (likely at the Union Workhouse). Buried at Battersea Rise Cemetery. Undertaker named simply as Boyce. Buried at C Ground, grave number 8225.
Other people show on the page with the same grave number so very likely common ground. What would be good to find would be a map of sections/numbers etc. Unfortunately, the archives didn't have one but I am wondering if WBC http://burials.wandsworth.gov.uk/ may help further in this respect?
Monica
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Monica you are amazing as always :)
70 would make it the correct age too, wish this death cert wold hurry up and arrive, even tho its probably not going to help, ;D
i'll have a look at that site , see what I can find :)
and thank you again for going and looking :) xx
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skin disease on face
That line is possibly for the next prisoner down, not JBL.
There is a brief report of JBL's trial in The Times of 22 January 1874, page 10, column 6.
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Hi Shaun,
had another look at the record, I don't think it could be the chap underneath, its too close to JBL's and theres a large gap before the other one, unfortunately ! :)
I've had a look at the newspaper report, thank you for finding it !! he still seems to be a bit of a rebel , lol , and how did you find it? i've searched 'John Ballard Lloyd' and nothing comes up apart from a couple from 1850's ?
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love how he even jokes about not taking as long as the Tichborne trial, which had lasted 3 years ;D
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and how did you find it? i've searched 'John Ballard Lloyd' and nothing comes up apart from a couple from 1850's ?
It is in Palmer's Index https://goo.gl/BRWAhu
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ohh I've not seen that before, thanks :)
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I popped in to the Wandsworth Local History and Heritage Archives located at Battersea Library...as one does... ::)
They hold the microfilms for burials at St Mary's Cemetery (also known as the Battersea Rise Cemetery).
The 1877 burial entry for 8 August 1877 a little different to what showed on A/try but I would say certainly the same entry:
John Lloyd, 70 years (not 78). Died at the Infirmary (likely at the Union Workhouse). Buried at Battersea Rise Cemetery. Undertaker named simply as Boyce. Buried at C Ground, grave number 8225.
Other people show on the page with the same grave number so very likely common ground. What would be good to find would be a map of sections/numbers etc. Unfortunately, the archives didn't have one but I am wondering if WBC http://burials.wandsworth.gov.uk/ may help further in this respect?
Monica
I emailed them and they have just replied,
they have sent maps with all the grave numbers on but i can't find 8225 in ground C :(
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;D I got the same email too earlier! I am at work so have my son (who is home on study leave and has followed the story over the years with me!) looking through the attachments also.
Monica
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haha great minds , closest i can find is 8221 in another section, you'd think there would be a biggish plot if they were using it for people from the workhouse, keep all the paupers together ?
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He has sent me a text & clip to say he has found it! Let me get home and have a look at the whole page for that attachment and try to place it within the cemetery. For such a small cemetery, as you can see from the 13 attachments or so, it is packed to the gills. You can also see how they ran out of space quickly there....
Monica
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From the attachments we got, below is the sections map for the cemetery:
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I was just typing a reply when yours popped up, lol i still can't find it, my eyes are stinging !!isit in the c section ?
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Again from the attachments, 8225 is in the one named 'B'. B is the section by the side entrace, opposite the lodge. From the listing of where 8225 shows, the grave looks to be pretty much in the middle of this area. On the schedule, look to the middle and there are some ring marks. 8225 is in this area. I will have time later on this week to have a better look. This area does not have many surviving stones.
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Got to shoot off for an hour or so....pilates 8)....catch up later. Have some photos I can add until I get a more accurate one later this week.
Monica :)
ADDED: you can see from the clip how the lack of order in the numbering system doesn't help! Some sections do follow in order, most do not! Without this plan, it would be neigh on impossible wouldn't it...
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B? ! no wonder ;D thank your lad for looking :)
this is brilliant,
I was surprised how tight they are all packed in, never thought about it before, I wonder how they decided where to put those from the workhouse? would they have all been in the same area ?
enjoy your pilates, x
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To give you an idea of how little is left in Area B in terms of stones, this is a comparable arial view of that area from google earth. The building bottom left is the old Lodge:
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From street level, this is a view of area B. The building to the right is the old lodge. The entrance is the main side entrance from the junction at Battersea Rise and Bolingbroke Grove, straight into area B.
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those are great thanks,
I wouldn't have thought they would put any marker, would they? I wonder how many he's sharing that hole with :(
still can't believe you've been walking past him all this time :)
slight tangent, i saw this print in a charity shop and thought of JBL as its that sort of era, and had to have it, it was only £1, and when I looked on the back , its got a label saying its the customs house at Liverpool Docks, and as you may remember JBLs stepfather worked in customs at Liverpool , lol, spooky :D (it is darker in real life, i love it )
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Hi Monica ;)
Would you be able to post the plot layout on L&M resources?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/london-middlesex-resources/
Might help other people.
Thanks
Dawn
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the certificate has come!
says 'formerly a baker'' so that fits in with the 1871 census at the Wandsworth Workhouse, (63, baker, born in Worcester)
and really, he was a baker for at least 5 years, first at the shop in Mitcham and then in Battersea
so looking at all the evidence , I think that this is our man
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That certainly helps making me more certain that this is our man!
We didn't think over the years that we could get to this point ::)
Just need to take pups there when I am not working this week, with the schedules and plan we got from WBC...
Monica
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Would you be able to post the plot layout on L&M resources?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/london-middlesex-resources/
Might help other people.
Sure will later today, Dawn. :)
Monica
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As confirmed from JBL's death cert and the burial register, photo below of the infirmary - http://boroughphotos.org/wandsworth/wandsworth-infirmary-st-johns-hill-2/
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That certainly helps making me more certain that this is our man!
We didn't think over the years that we could get to this point ::)
Just need to take pups there when I am not working this week, with the schedules and plan we got from WBC...
Monica
its funny that we had the 1871 census years ago, but its taken all this time to come back to it :)
I wonder if theres anything left to find about him now, lol surely he's got a few more stories in the papers ...
We still never got anywhere with his mum tho, she's still behind that brickwall ???
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oooo wow thats a brilliant picture ! it's huge, :)
wish there were more records available
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The site was huge. See old map here www.workhouses.org.uk/Wandsworth/ (Don't laugh...I do pilates at a new studio just across from it ::) ;D).
Monica
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we'll probably find out next that he lived in your house once ;D
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JBL was not lonely bones in his grave at 8225. We know that there were at least two other burials the next day on the 9 August 1877 in the common ground grave site.
There were more burials in the next decade, 10 years later exactly. One young 18 year old, Alice Moore was also buried at 8225 in common ground. Her parents Eliza and Charles are also buried there later. I have had lovely help in the last couple of days. I have spoken today with the helpful lady at http://enablelc.org/bereavement/about/ to confirm what I was finding in the burial registers. She confirmed that there were indeed 6 people buried there. Four of them were in there, up to Alice Moore in 1887, with the grave classified as common ground (therefore there had been no payment for their burial). The lady checked records and believes that Alice's parents then paid for their burials. You would think they wanted to buried very much with their daughter Alice. Eliza died first in 1893 and then husband Charles died in 1908. They paid for a stone too....and it remain today on the ground but very legible. It is this fact that help confirm the exact location of JBL's burial place.
Would have been hard to as precise without having found the surviving stone for the Moore family so thank you to them ;)
I am still amazed at the proximity of the graves. Being there and looking at the small space I was looking out between the graves I had identified, I could not easily imagine that there were so many graves laid out there.
So there you go, we have JBL's exact burial spot in the end...and he is not lonely at all!
I will add some other bits below....
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Just to give us some bearings, this are the remaining stones nearby to 8225:
6199 - The Mills family. Large plot with surround and green glass stones
6652 - The Wortham family. Closest to the lodge.
4034 - The Board Family
5120 - Large rust colour stone. Number on stone, forgot to note the names.
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Photo below with nearby graves with confirmed numbers:
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This is the stone for Alice, Eliza and Charles Moore that was placed on grave 8225:
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Further views:
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Last one:
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amazing! I can't thank you enough for all the effort you have put in over the years, you've been fantastic ;D
when you look at the map , then the actual place with a few stones its mad to think how many people are there ! and the chances of people buying a stone on the common ground, just like JBL to get a free marker ! its good that the Moores got to be with their daughter, what a sad story for them tho,
it's a shame too that the stones are all fallen and look uncared for.
I've just spent an hour in the middle of writing this talking to my 16 yr old son about it all, he was most impressed with our detective work, and says we should put an orange on his grave ;D I'm going to see if my daughter will go put some flowers there for me when she goes back down to her boyfriends near Basildon,
well thats only taken us 8 years to complete ! now just need to find out his mums history lol
thanks again for yours and everyone elses' help,
x
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Well, until your daughter gets down to lay flowers for you, I planted a plant from both of us! Probably upset some bones along the way! The card I left has a happy message from you and me ;)
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aww thats lovely, brought a tear to my eye, thats probably the only flowers he has ever had on his grave that were for him, he better share them with the Moores family ;)
I now have a need to find all their graves! I've been trying to find Elizabeth and William Faircloughs at Kensal green, even tho theres the record on ancestry can't find it on the basic search on the online database, and theres Ada his daughter thats bugging me how theres no birth etc, it felt like the end of the story with JBL but theres more stuff I need to know !!
thanks again Monica, couldn't have done this without you xxx
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what dates of death do you have for Elizabeth & William Fairclough?
and where were they last living?
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these are the 2 records on ancestry for Elizabeth and William
and the other is for a child that i'm trying to work out if she is JBL's daughter Ada who was on the 1851 census but I can't find any birth or death records, All their other children had long middle names so theres something about this one that has been niggling me, but i can't find any other records about this Ada Georgiana Elizabeth Lloyd :) (she was also buried at Kensal )
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They are all in the same plot at Kensal Green, wonder why when they were living south of the river?
Trouble with Kensal Green is that the results are no more than an index, you'll need to contact the cemetery for more details such as an exact date (and while you're at it complain that you don't get much info for your money with DeceasedOnline)
Elizh Fairclough, of 5 Langton Place, buried 1844 plot 2807, register no 8121
Ada G E Lloyd, of 18 Gt Union St, buried 1853 plot 2807, register number is obscured by the spine of the book
William Farrclough (sic), of Upp Stamford St, buried plot 2807, register number 4169
I have reported the transcription error
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oh wow thank you Dawn !!! my jaw is on the floor, that Ada is in the same grave, how on earth did that come about ??
just need to go put the chickens to bed while this sinks in, i'm very confused but thank you so much for finding this !!!! ;D ;D
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With Dawn's details on the burial etc, this must be Ada's statutory death index entry:
LLOYD, ADA GEORGIANA ELIZABETH aged 3
GRO Reference: 1853 D Quarter in ST GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 147
Monica
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yeah just seen that Monica, good job it was pay day yesterday, I'm going to send for her certificate, still can't find any birth tho?
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Just to add to the story , when Ada was dying in November 1853, John was in prison because of the case of 'The City of London Brewing and Malting Company' so poor Lavinia was dealing with it on her own :o
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Was it about this time, when JBL had appeared in front of a judge pleading mercy as his 'wife' (Lavinia) and children were impoverished and in dreadful circumstances. Also at this time, didn't wife (Eliza Vaughan Nightingale?) write to the court re her husband JBL?
Monica
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that was in 1855, when his son Frederick aged 9 was dying or had just died :(
do you have any thoughts on why Ada would be in with Elizabeth? it was 10 years after she died, I still can't get my head around it lol
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Been re-reading through. So much there isn't there in terms of potential leads for JBL's parents, Benjamin Lloyd and Elizabeth Collins.
One thing that has bothered me is that we have never really had anything much on JBL's first wife, Elizabeth Vaughan Nightingale apart from early events. Then big gap whilst JBL was having children with Lavinia Cheatham. Then that letter received by the court mid 1850s from his wife - who we read as Elizabeth Vaughan Nightingale.
Summarising some of the key events for her:
Born 1810 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7T5-3L4 Likely illegitimate. From later records, father a George Vaughan, a baker and grocer from the Battersea area.
At the age of 16, she was "decoyed" by JBL from a stagecoach etc...This link gave us lots of background on this period www.rootschat.com/links/01kc8/
Married JBL in Cheam in 1829.
Had the following children:
1830 John Fairclough https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1J8-LYY = think you found a death for him?
1831 Elizabeth Vaughan https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NRF1-9Z9
1834 Benjamin https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7CL-K84
1836 Henry Vaughan https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J3KY-MR9
I have looked for Eliza and children in the censuses but never had any joy but really concentrated most on 1841 & 1851.
Just stretched out to 1871 and found this entry:
Elizabeth Lloyd, head, 60 and married. Baker employs one man b. Shoreditch
Elizabeth Waters, 39, married, daughter
Robert Waters, 44, son in law, gas engineer.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRJ6-897 Can't see the middle initial M for Elizabeth Snr on the original.
There is a marriage for a Elizabeth Lloyd and a Robert Waters in 1st Qrt 1853 in Islington - 1b/215.
Monica
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:-\ Just found an entry from 1841 for a Benjamin and Elizabeth Lloyd (born c 1811) in Shoreditch. Benjamin is a baker and there is a daughter Elizabeth (born c. 1830). It must be them in that 1871 census entry.
So....Elizabeth Vaughan Nightingale is still nowhere to be found.
Monica
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yes have death of John Fairclough Lloyd aged 5 weeks at Mitcham ,
as for the rest, total blank ???
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just to add for Eliza Vaughan Nightingale,
birth 26 Mar 1810, Baptised 20 Jul 1823 at St Giles Cripplegate,London, mother Hannah Nightingale.
father George Vaughan, first we hear of him in Mitcham as a grocer /baker
marriage to JBL 15 feb 1829 Cheam, Surrey, (mother was a witness)
''some time after Mr Vaughan took a business in Battersea and after instructing Lloyd in the business at Mitcham he gave it up to Mr and Mrs Lloyd and went to reside in Battersea. In the year 1830, only about nine or ten months after he was put into the business at Mitcham, Lloyd failed , and went to live in Battersea with Mr Vaughan where he continued , as he states in his evidence, nearly five years: about June, 1833, his name was substituted on the shop at Battersea for the name of Vaughan, which till then had been on the shop; Lloyd then carried on the business at Battersea until October, 1835
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i emailed Kensal green cemetery for a map of the site and they replied at 7.47am this morning ;D
Elizabeth and co are in plot 2807 in block 109
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plot
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Did they tell you whether there is a headstone?
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no they didn't say anything, mind you I didn't think to ask :)
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If you are going back to ask, might be worth checking if they can tell you the names of who else is in the lair. WBC had all the names of the people buried in 8225 at St Mary's. We may find some other unexpected connected bodies....maybe ::)
Monica
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something on the search , i forget where, said Elizabeth and 2 other burials in that hole so maybe there is only them ?
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oh and nearly forgot, did you see theres a 'vaughan' grave nearby , ;D and a 'Snape' ;D
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We have to wonder why they chose that cemetery for sure....Not exactly close to where we know they were living at the time of their deaths.
Monica
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i wonder if theres a Collins connection? we still don't have parents for Elizabeth
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the final proof of little Ada belonging to us, Poor soul died of cholera in 19 hours, :(
can anyone tell what the death and reg date is? she was buried on the 16th but I can't make out the dates on here, to me it looks like eighteenth for death ???
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8 and 14 November 1853 I think. You then have the burial register entry for 16 November.
Monica
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Just adding a note
did my DNA on Ancestry and also uploaded to GEDmatch,
On GEDmatch I am related at 4.3 generations to JanChat, who, if anyone remembers, was researching the Australian Lloyds and we were trying to find the link with Benjamin Lloyd (JBL's dad )and Benjamin Lloyd the father of the ones that set off to Australia, so I think this means that we were right !
:)
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Certainly does...and great to have it confirmed too ;)
Just seen this www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=180912307
Nice touch and good to see him further remembered this way :)
Monica
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and its :P to the fella that said JBL was the illegitimate son of John Ballard lol,
it's totally made the DNA thing worthwhile :)
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Just found records for admission and discharge on 25th and 29th may 1854 into Wapping workhouse for Lavinia Cheatham and child Grenville Cheatham from mile end, I think JBL was in prison at that time ? in the record it says 2 children at ?????
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this is the bit I can't read
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2 Children at Establishm...
It refers to the 'Limehouse Children's Establishment', which was the workhouse school used by the Stepney Union at this period.
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thank you , thats brilliant ;D
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Another newspaper repot mentions Johns addresses, might these be any use ?
formerly of no.8, st Thomas street stepney,
and no.18 Cornhill, London,
then of Emmett's cottage, Hornsey road, Hornsey, Middlesex.
and late of 8 Leslie street, Mile end road ,middlesex.
8 Leslie st is where Grenville was born.
plus found out today that his sister, Florence Georgina Henrietta Lloyd who was born in 1856 also has JBL as father on her birth cert.
Numbers 17 & 18 Cornhill was the business address of my 4 x great grandfather John Sarl of Messrs Sarl & Sons Goldsmith & Jewellers, the same business from the previous post which mentions "He obtained £52 of plated silver articles of Messers.Sarl, which he pledged within a fortnight to sustain the company."
(http://i55.tinypic.com/10ehs7r.jpg)
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Hi Mickey
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Monica
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Another newspaper repot mentions Johns addresses, might these be any use ?
formerly of no.8, st Thomas street stepney,
and no.18 Cornhill, London,
then of Emmett's cottage, Hornsey road, Hornsey, Middlesex.
and late of 8 Leslie street, Mile end road ,middlesex.
8 Leslie st is where Grenville was born.
plus found out today that his sister, Florence Georgina Henrietta Lloyd who was born in 1856 also has JBL as father on her birth cert.
Numbers 17 & 18 Cornhill was the business address of my 4 x great grandfather John Sarl of Messrs Sarl & Sons Goldsmith & Jewellers, the same business from the previous post which mentions "He obtained £52 of plated silver articles of Messers.Sarl, which he pledged within a fortnight to sustain the company."
(http://i55.tinypic.com/10ehs7r.jpg)
Hi mikey, sorry only just seen your post,
thanks for the information, its strange to think our relatives met all those years ago and here we are talking about it ;D