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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Clare => Topic started by: turramurra on Thursday 20 August 09 02:44 BST (UK)
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Seeking family history about the BROGAN family of Co.Clare Ireland.
Peter Brogan was from Co.Clare Ireland
He was born c1823
He married Margaret Clune 21st Feb 1848 in Yass NSW
They had 10 children
Any family or descendants would be helpful for research in Australia
Turramurra
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I am researching the same Brogan family through their :) son Thomas the elder brother of Peter. Not sure if we have made contact before. If not please feel free to do so.
Joy Conroy
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Dear Joy
looking forward to your contact
we have made some new research discoveries in this BROGAN family and would like to share them
Thank you from Christine Edwards
Turramurra
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Hi
Just wondering if you found out what part of Clare they originated from, I am researching Brogans from East Clare, I know some of them went to Australia, so wondering if there could be a connection.
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Sorry about late reply James Brogan and family came from Cappabane, Maymooth Parish, Co Clare. James was a convict and his family followed some years after and settled in the Goulburn are of NSW.
Don't know if that information is helpful.
Joy Conroy
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Thanks for that, I am a little confused however because I understand Cappabane is in East Clare - Scarrif area which is where the family I am interested in, came from. I dont know where the Maynooth bit is comming from. Are you defininetly talking about Cappabane Co Clare.
Ta
Ger
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Sorry I don't know where the Maynooth came from exactly I think it was fr earlier records I had. James Brogan lived on 5 acres of rented land at Cappabane. Which Brogans are you interested in.
Joy
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ggi/
This might help clarify things.
PM
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My James Brogan are all the entries bar the first, are you related to him via one of his 7 children.
My line comes through his 1st son Thomas. We also think that he may have had at least some close relatives that came to NSW, John b abt 1793, Michael b abt 1815 and a Patrick d abt 1827 but not sure where they fit.
Joy
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Not related at all Joy, just thought it might be useful for anyone looking for a James Brogan to Australia.
PM
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The Brogan I am researching came from Scarriff also so good chance there is a connection, but his is of 1 of the Brogans who remained on in the locality. do you know what the charge was for, had come on some info involing Brogan and a guy from Mounthannon I think it was
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James Brogan and others were tried for the attempted murder of Philip Reade, Mountshannon, March 17th, 1824.
James Brogan, Patrick Durack, Anthony Boland, and Patrick Tuohy were to be excuted, their sentences were reprieved and they very sent as convicts to Australia.
Hope this helps
Joy
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Hi folk,
I'm looking for information on the following family line...
Bryan Brogan b ~1750 Belfast Antrim Northern Ireland. d. unknown. Married Penelope O’Brien ~1791 Ireland.
Had son:
James Brogan b. 1791 Maymooth Parish Copperbrawn County Clare, Ireland. Migrated to Australia as a convict (needing clarification on this point). d. 7 Feb 1871. Married Elleinor Horan.
Had son:
Peter Brogan b. 1818 County Claire, Ireland. Immigration 23 Dec 1835 Sydney NSW Australia. d. 10 March 1886 Spring Valley NSW and Margaret Elizabeth Clune, 21 Feb 1848 Yass, NSW.
Had son:
Bryan James Joseph Brogan b. 4 Feb 1855 Spring Valley NSW Australia. d. 1 Mar 1896 St George Qld. Drowned. Married Esther O’Brien 2 Jul 1875 Goulburn NSW.
Had daughter:
Marcella Brogan b. 3 Sep 1875 Goulburn NSW d. 2 Nov 1947 Goulburn NSW Australia. Married John Henry Humphries (b. ~1868 Goulburn NSW d. ~ 1933 Young NSW) in 1894 Goulburn NSW.
Had the following children:
1. Eileen Mary Humphries b. 1895 Goulburn NSW
2. Kathleen Vera Humphries b. 1896 Goulburn NSW
3. John Francis Humphries b. 1897 Goulburn NSW
4. Mary Ellen Humphries b. Sep 1900 Goulburn NSW
5. Herbert James Humphries b. 1904 Goulburn NSW
6. Henry Austin Humphries b. 7 Oct 1907 Goulburn NSW
7. Eric Leo Humphries b. 1911 Goulburn NSW
8. Iris Margaret Humphries b. 1916 Goulburn NSW
Kathleen Vera Humphries b. 1896 Goulburn, NSW. d. December 1974, Waratah NSW. Married Walter Joseph Clancy in 1918, Goulburn NSW.
Had daughter:
Jean Kathleen Clancy b. 8 May 1919, Goulburn NSW d. 10 May 2012, Cardiff NSW. Married Early Kennedy McNaughton March 1940, Waratah NSW.
If anybody here has information on this family line, particularly in relation to the convict information re: James, I would greatly appreciate your feedback.
Kind regards,
Kim.
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Hi folk,
I'm looking for information on the following family line...
Bryan Brogan b ~1750 Belfast Antrim Northern Ireland. d. unknown. Married Penelope O’Brien ~1791 Ireland.
Had son:
James Brogan b. 1791 Maymooth Parish Copperbrawn County Clare, Ireland. Migrated to Australia as a convict (needing clarification on this point). d. 7 Feb 1871. Married Elleinor Horan.
Had son:
Peter Brogan b. 1818 County Claire, Ireland. Immigration 23 Dec 1835 Sydney NSW Australia. d. 10 March 1886 Spring Valley NSW and Margaret Elizabeth Clune, 21 Feb 1848 Yass, NSW.
...
I would question the accuracy of the Irish information you've posted. There is a Maynooth (hear Dublin) which is not near Co. Clare and Belfast is even further away from Clare.
Have you searched the Catholic Parish Registers yet? http://registers.nli.ie/
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Thanks. No I hadn't searched myself. I found this information (with my direct ancestors) on A Brogan family here in Australia. I was hoping to clarify any cross-overs here, as the information on James Brogan being a convict and dates matched. But I too, questioned the reliability of the data as the convict record re: ship didn't match.
Thank you for the link. I'll follow up.
Kind regards,
Kim.
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Kim
What is the information you need for James Brogan convict, which I have a lot of information about. I can be contacted directed if you wish (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
Regards
Joy Conroy
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Kim
James Brogan born abt 1791 lived lived on five acres of rented land in Cappabane with his wife Ellen. Cappabane Mountain Farm is in the parish of Tomgraney, Co Clare.
James trail No 688 has held in Galway where he was sentenced to death for break, enter and discharging a firearm in County Galway although he lived in County Clare adjacent. His sentence was commuted to transport for life to New South Wales occupation given as Farm Servant.
His parents were recorded on his death Cert as Bryan Brogan and Penelope O'Brien.
As far as I know there is no confirmation of the place where James was born.
James' brother Patrick arrived in NSW, he was Sponsored by James Brogan Snr, brother of Patrick Brogan 27 yrs & uncles of Michael 14 yrs & John 11 yrs Arrived on vessel China also with them was Michael Bogan 38yrs , a widow & his son James aged 17 another brother.
Regards
Joy Conroy
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Hello Joy, I see you're still playing around with the Brogan family tree. How are you doing? I had a recent amazing meeting up with a blood relative whom I had know for many years but didn't realise we both went back to James and Ellen. This friend goes back to Bridget. I'll tell you more if I hear from you.
Best wishes,
Brian Roach.
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Hi Brian.
Good to hear from you, yes still playing around with the Brogans picking up bits and pieces here and there. I will send you through the personal message system by email address.
Regards
Joy
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New members usually need 2 posts to use PM system ;)
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Thanks you for pointing out the rules for this thread much appreciated as I have not been back to this site for awhile. My first posting on this subject I made in 2009 I think, the person I was replying to is researching another branch of my Brogan family. Once again thanks for informing me of changes that I was not aware of. :)
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I have just come across this site (and topic). I am descended from a Brogan family that settled in the Goulburn district of NSW, and have been told they originated in County Clare. I have seen a headstone in a cemetery at Collector (near Goulburn) NSW for James Brogan, died around 1870, and in the burial ground at Spring Valley in the same area a headstone for Mary Brogan, died around 1912. My memory of these dates is a little fuzzy as I no longer live in that region. I know the Mary Brogan buried at Spring Valley was my paternal grandfather's grandmother, that she married William Payne who died around 1870 (from whom I take my surname) and I believe bore him 12 children, but was buried under her maiden name.
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Joy I believe you have sent me a personal message but i cannot view it, possibly because of the 2 message rule mentioned above. Hopefully this will qualify me.
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You should be ok now Paisano ;)
Welcome to RootsChat
Sarah
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Many thanks Sarah.
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Hello all.
James Brogan who is buried at Collector is my 4th great grandfather. I would love to make contact with others who have researched the Brogans. I am connected to Margaret Brogan, the daughter of James and Ellen. I realise I have to post twice to use the personal message system!
Many thanks
Suzanne
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Hi Suzanne
Good to hear from another Brogan desc my line comes through James and Ellen oldest child Thomas brother to Margaret.
Regards
Joy
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Hi Joy
Thank you so much for your prompt reply. I was hoping to contact you through the message system. I'm not sure what happens next! Thank you, Suzanne
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Most likely you already have the following, but for the benefit of others, may I mention that NSW State Records Office includes:
30 January 1828
Arrival in Sydney NSW as per Convict Indents
James BROGAN, aged 31 years, born Co Clare, Ireland.
Roman Catholic, Farm Servant, a Married Man with five children.
Sentenced to Life, tried 4 April 1827 at Galway on Firearms and Burglary charge.
Arrived per the Marquis of Huntley (2) (Marquis of Huntley was the name of the ship, and it was its second voyage transporting convicted persons).
Assigned to George WINDHAM at the Hunters River.
November 1828 NSW Census
In the Household of William CARTER, at Piecefield, Hunter River
James Brogan, 33 years of age, a Government Servant, a Shepherd.
1836
Ticket of Leave No. 36/0740
James BROGAN received his Ticket of Leave, allowing him to remain in the Goulburn District. He had arrived 1828 on the Marquis of Huntley. His trial had been at Galway
1838
Ticket of Leave 38/0005
James BROGAN received further Ticket of Leave, allowed to remain in the Goulburn District. Trial place Galway, per Marquis of Huntley 1828.
JM (not a family member, just an RChatter with a focus on NSW. ::) )
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Hi Thanks for supplying the information, I also have information on his trial in Ireland if any others are interested.
Regards
Joy
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Hi Thanks for supplying the information, I also have information on his trial in Ireland if any others are interested.
Regards
Joy
I'd love any information you have on the trial or this family. As I found out I'm related to them. :)
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Hi folk,
I'm looking for information on the following family line...
Bryan Brogan b ~1750 Belfast Antrim Northern Ireland. d. unknown. Married Penelope O’Brien ~1791 Ireland.
Had son:
James Brogan b. 1791 Maymooth Parish Copperbrawn County Clare, Ireland. Migrated to Australia as a convict (needing clarification on this point). d. 7 Feb 1871. Married Elleinor Horan.
Had son:
Peter Brogan b. 1818 County Claire, Ireland. Immigration 23 Dec 1835 Sydney NSW Australia. d. 10 March 1886 Spring Valley NSW and Margaret Elizabeth Clune, 21 Feb 1848 Yass, NSW.
Had son:
Bryan James Joseph Brogan b. 4 Feb 1855 Spring Valley NSW Australia. d. 1 Mar 1896 St George Qld. Drowned. Married Esther O’Brien 2 Jul 1875 Goulburn NSW.
Had daughter:
Marcella Brogan b. 3 Sep 1875 Goulburn NSW d. 2 Nov 1947 Goulburn NSW Australia. Married John Henry Humphries (b. ~1868 Goulburn NSW d. ~ 1933 Young NSW) in 1894 Goulburn NSW.
Had the following children:
1. Eileen Mary Humphries b. 1895 Goulburn NSW
2. Kathleen Vera Humphries b. 1896 Goulburn NSW
3. John Francis Humphries b. 1897 Goulburn NSW
4. Mary Ellen Humphries b. Sep 1900 Goulburn NSW
5. Herbert James Humphries b. 1904 Goulburn NSW
6. Henry Austin Humphries b. 7 Oct 1907 Goulburn NSW
7. Eric Leo Humphries b. 1911 Goulburn NSW
8. Iris Margaret Humphries b. 1916 Goulburn NSW
Kathleen Vera Humphries b. 1896 Goulburn, NSW. d. December 1974, Waratah NSW. Married Walter Joseph Clancy in 1918, Goulburn NSW.
Had daughter:
Jean Kathleen Clancy b. 8 May 1919, Goulburn NSW d. 10 May 2012, Cardiff NSW. Married Early Kennedy McNaughton March 1940, Waratah NSW.
If anybody here has information on this family line, particularly in relation to the convict information re: James, I would greatly appreciate your feedback.
Kind regards,
Kim.
I'd love any info you have, john Francis Humphries is my great grandfather!
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Hello TiaLozi92, Welcome to RootsChat :)
Joy was online a few days ago, hopefully she should reply to your post very soon.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi Kim
Sorry I thought your message was an old one 2016. What ever information I can help with I would only to glad to share. Here is an account of his crime.
The attempted murder of Philip Reade, Mountshannon, March 17th, 1824
James & Ellen lived on five acres of rented land in Cappabane. In the adjoining townland of Shean lived Anthony Boland who had fourteen acres of rented land. In the townland of Fossabeg lived Daniel Dinan who rented a few acres in common with nine others. Across the river Bow in the townland of Magherareagh lived Patrick Durack and his wife Judith Bleach. This man was an uncle of Michael Durack ancestor of the Duracks of "Kings in Grass Castles " fame. For some unexplained reason he was never mentioned in Dame Mary Durack's best seller, first published in 1959.
In the townland of Sellernane , Mountshannon lived Patrick O'Dea and his wife. His subsequent actions were to change the lives of the above forever.Philip Reade, of Woodpark, owned half the parish of Mountshannon and was also a successful barrister. He had a magnificent country house with landscaped gardens overlooking Holy Island and Lough Derg. He was by all accounts a benevolent landlord, particularly in later years during the Great Hunger.
On St Patrick's night 1824, Brogan, Durack, Dinan, Boland, O'Dea and one Patrick Tuohy, for some unexplained reason broke into Philip Reade's house with the sole intention of murdering him. They shot him in the chest and shoulder and presumed he was dead. For months Philip Reade lay dangerously ill while the best surgeons in the country attended him.
The military and yeomanry scoured the countryside for his attackers and offered fifty pounds for information. No one in this part of the country was more despised than the informer and no one more deserving of the curse "may the hearthstone of hell be your bed forever." For two years the search continued until finally one of the party Patrick O'Dea informed the authorities.
There was a lot of interest in the trial but still no motive was given or at least reported. Patrick O'Dea stated that it was James Brogan who set it up and to divert suspicion they pretended to quarrel in the ensuing weeks. O'Dea was to accuse Brogan of having an affair with his wife, and this would prevent the neighbours from having any suspicions. No witness was called for the defence and after about twenty minutes the jury returned with a guilty verdict. The judge with spine chilling solemnity then said "You James Brogan, Patrick Durack, Anthony Boland, and Patrick Tuohy are to be taken from hence, to the place from whence you came and from thence to the place of execution and there you are to hang by the necks until you are dead - and may God almighty have mercy on your souls"
A few days before the intended execution they were all reprieved. No reason was given and they were sent as convicts to New South Wales. On Tuesday May 28th 1827 under strong escort they passed through Ennis on their way to the hulk "Surprise", lying at anchor at the cove of Cork.
Source Robert Mote Home page http://www.ozigen.com/tree/p167.htm#i12025.
Ireland, Tithe Applotment Books, 1823-1837
1825
Name: James Brogan
County: Clare
Parish: Tomgraney
Townland:Cappybane Mountain Farm
There were also other Brogans in the same area brothers I think.
Brogan Stephen Cappabane Mountain Farm
Brogan Michl Cappabane Mountain Farm
Brogan James Cappabane Mountain Farm
Brogan, Jr Michl Cappabane Mountain Farm
Brogan? Michl Cappabane Mountain Farm
Passage form book "Letters from Irish Australia" by Professor Patrick O’Farrell.
"Other convicts- perhaps less sure of their persuasive powers, or less literate, or with more accommodating masters - got help from their employers. Robert Futter of Lumley in the County of Argyle, Goulburn wrote on 10 November, 1834 on behalf of his servant James Brogan. He told Mrs Brogan…I consider that when you are (with your family) fortunate enough to reach this country you have every reason to expect that he will be able ( with the exertion of yourself and family) to maintain you respectably. Every person in this Colony who is honest, sober and industrious cannot fail to do well.
Futter also told Mrs Brogan that her husband had all the relevant permissions and instructed her in the formalities to be follow, He left the last page for Brogan himself to reply to a letter his wife had sent; There is nothing in this world grieved me but the delay of you and family my son Thomas cant come in the same ship with you for being of age and the best thing that can do is to go to the Captain of the ship and enter with him as a working hand if he dont engage with the Captain he is sure to come in the next meal ship that leaves Ireland.
Brogan, had been literate but neither fluent of grammatical, Brogan had been transported in 1829. He had six children. His 35yr wife Ellen, together with 3 daughters and 1 son (the other 2 sons aged 20 and 18 left on a later ship) left Cork to join him on 22 October 1835 on the Roslin Castle"
Regards
Joy
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Thank you for posting this history. I only recently discovered a family connection to the Brogan and Durack families. I visited East Clare last week and stood in Cappaghabaun, Maghereagh, Sellernaun, Mountshannon, Scarriff, Cloonamirran, Ogonnelloe, and the Clonrush cemetery. I also spent time in the Co. Clare archives in Ennis photographing all I could find on the Durack, Brogan, Dillon, Sammon, Bouchier, Long and Young families from that area. Nothing much remains from the early 1800's. The great mystery I am trying to solve is who my 3rd ggrandmother? the name I have is widow Mrs. Sarah Young born about 1791 in Co. Clare, the oral history names Mountshannon. We are connected thru DNA matches to this region, and we are assuming she is a Durack, Brogan, Dillon, possibly a Sammon or Bouchier? If anyone knows of a lost sister named Sarah, please let me know. If there was some scandal such as attempted murder, that might explain why we know nothing about her family connections. Although when I read about the horrors of the smallholding farmers being evicted by the landlords, I don't know if I'd be too embarrassed by an act of revolt.
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FYI - I see a lot of misinformation about the geography of East Clare Lough Derg.
Scarriff parish(Barony of Upper Tulla) includes the town, Moyne, Carrowmore, Fossabeg, Tuamgraney, Raheen, Callahy.
Inishcaltra parish(Barony of Leitrim) includes Mountshannon, Cappaduff, Sellernaun, Cappaghabaun, Cloonamirran, Maghereagh.
Clonrush parish(Barony of Leitrim) includes Whitegate, Meelick, Gweeneeny, Cloonoolia, Drummaan, Cappagha, Cregg, Furnace.
All of these townlands have been in Co. Clare since 1898, prior to that Inishcaltra and Clonrush parishes were part of Co. Galway.
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I haven't been on Rootschat for awhile but found this thread tonight - maybe this info will help those looking for Thomas Brogan. Thomas Brogan b1814 at Scaffit c.Clare info is on monaropioneer site
" 1. Brogan, ThomasBrogan, Thomas was born 1814, Capperbane, Scariff, Clare, Ireland; died 20 Dec 1897, Spring Valley near Goulburn, New South Wales; was buried , Spring Valley Cemetery, New South Wales. "
Has descendants info.
google "monaropioneer" free registration click on Pioneers then B - scroll down to Brogan.
Elainesch
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I have seen many people talking about being related to Brogans of Cappaghbaun / Cappybane Mountain Farm, in Clare.
My ( confirmed ) Brogan relatives were living in Cappaghbaun / Cappybane Mountain Farm from the 1830's - 1880's.
* Michael Brogan 1834
Ellen Brogan 1840
&
Their children
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Bernard Brogan 1885
Ellen Brogan 1877
Stephen Brogan 1874
Margaret Brogan 1879
James Brogan. 1882
Michael Brogan Jnr. ( dob unknown )
* Michael Brogan senior's father was also called Michael Brogan, and he also lived on the farm.
There are Brogan's living on Cappaghbaun / Cappybane Farm in the 1820's:
Stephen Brogan
James Brogan
Michael Brogan Jnr.
Could the above Brogan's be my ancestors??
( I'm already aware that in this Brogan family, James was found guilty of murder and sent to Australia. Bit I don't know the full details )
I would be very grateful if someone could help me confirm whether the Brogan's from the 1820's on Cappybane / Cappaghbaun are also my anceestors.
Regards,
Michael
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
My ( confirmed ) Brogan relatives were living in Cappaghbaun / Cappybane Mountain Farm from the 1830's - 1880's.
I think you mean Cappaghabaun. Here's Cappaghabaun Mountain townland in Co. Clare, with the peak of Cappaghabaun Mountain East (432m) close by.
https://www.townlands.ie/clare/tulla-upper/moynoe/cappaghabaun/cappaghabaun-mountain/
The peak of Cappaghabaun Mountain (395m) is also shown.
KG
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Yes, thanks for correcting that.
I wrote Cappaghbaun / Cappybane as they are the versions I've always seen on documents while researching, which were obviously misspellings.
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* Michael Brogan 1834
Ellen Brogan 1840
&
Their children
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Bernard Brogan 1885
Ellen Brogan 1877
Stephen Brogan 1874
Margaret Brogan 1879
James Brogan. 1882
Michael Brogan Jnr. ( dob unknown )
Ellen's maiden name was Doyle.
Here's another sibling, Peter born 1871.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03270/2198364.pdf
Note that Margaret was born in 1880.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02881/2055772.pdf
KG
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Michael and Ellen in 1901 Irish census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Clare/Cappaghabaun/Cappaghabaun_Mountain/1085457/
Bernard Brogan's birth record of 1885.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02610/1963948.pdf
........and in 1911 census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Clare/Cappaghabaun/Cappaghabaun_Mountain/369178/
KG
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Thanks very much KG!!
Do you have any more info?
How are you related to Ellen?
Michael & Ellen are my great, great grandparents.
Since writing the first post here, I discovered that Michael & Ellen had 14 children ( 2 children died in childhood )
That's why there are two Marys and two Johns.
Mary 29 Nov 1858 ( died as a child )
Michael 12 Aug 1860
John 19 March 1862 ( died as a child )
Mary 11 March 1863
John 4 Apr 1865
Martin 22 May 1867
Patrick 20 May 1869
Peter. 2 Aug 1871
Bridget 17 March 1873
Stephen 17 Apr 1874
Ellen 17 May 1877
Margaret 18 Sep 1879
James 21 Jan, 1882
Bernard 19 Oct 1885, never married
I have also discovered the name of Michael's father ( Stephen Brogan ), and Stephen Brogan's 6 children.
Patrick ( married Margaret Madden )
Stephen ( married Bridget Dillane )
Margaret ( married John Broderick )
Michael ( married Ellen Doyle )
John ( married Judy Minogue )
Bridget ( married Daniel Flannery )
I have also discovered Michael Brogan's ( the Michael married to Ellen ), potential grandfather ( Michael Brogan ) and his ( possible ) sons.
Stephen ( son of Michael snr?)
And father of James and Michael jnr?
Michael ( father of Stephen? )
Grandfather of James & Michael jnr?
James ( son of Stephen?)
& grandson of Michael?
Michael Jnr. ( son of Stephen? & grandson of Michael?
( & another Michael )
Not sure how the third Michael fits into things.
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I just wanted to correct myself, I made a slight mistake
The following are STEPHEN BROGANS 6 children ( not Michael's, that was a typo )
Patrick ( married Margaret Madden in
Ireland )
Stephen ( married Bridget Dillane in Ireland in 1853 )
Margaret ( married John Broderick in USA )
Michael ( married Ellen Doyle in Clare, Ireland )
John ( married Judy Minogue in Ireland )
Bridget ( married Daniel Flannery )
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Do you have any more info?
How are you related to Ellen?
I'm not related.....I'm just a RootsChatter helping you find information! ;D
Just posting the links to the deaths of Michael and Ellen in 1921 & 1928 respectively.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1921/05088/4396829.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1929/04940/4342789.pdf
KG
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Thanks VERY much for all of this help, you've filled in a lot of missing pieces!
Would you be able to help me confirm whether Michael Brogan is my great, great, great, great grandfather?
There were two Brogan families living in Cappybane Mountain Farm ( as it was known, in the 1820's ).
I have ruled out the other family:
James
Ellen
& 6 children
As this family doesn't have a Stephen in it, who is my great, great, great grandfather
The 2nd Brogan family living on Cappybane Mountain Farm, as I mentioned before, are:
Stephen
Michael
James
Michael ( jnr )
( & another Michael )
My reasoning for being related to this family are:
There are no other Brogan families listed as living on Cappybane Mountain Farm in the 1820's / 1830's.
( Apart from one or two random people also named Brogan but whose names don't match what I'm looking for.)
I've kind of reached a dead end now, where do I go from here?
The Irish government census website for 1820 / 1830 / 1840 / doesn't list any information at all in regards to Brogans.
Can you help me figure out what to do next ?
I would love to confirm whether this 2nd Brogan family are my ancestors, and if they are, where is the wife gone?
Why isn't she listed? If she's dead, I can find no record for her even then.
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I forgot to add...
Stephen Brogan - who was he married to?
He's my great, great, great grandfather.
Michael Brogan ( Stephen's potential father ), who was he married to?
( My possible great, great, great, great grandfather. )
Michael Brogan's father Michael Brogan ( my possible great, great, great, great, great grandfather ) - who was he married to?
So basically all the wives are missing!
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I have seen many people talking about being related to Brogans of Cappaghbaun / Cappybane Mountain Farm, in Clare.
My ( confirmed ) Brogan relatives were living in Cappaghbaun / Cappybane Mountain Farm from the 1830's - 1880's.
* Michael Brogan 1834
Ellen Brogan 1840
&
Their children
------------------------
Bernard Brogan 1885
Ellen Brogan 1877
Stephen Brogan 1874
Margaret Brogan 1879
James Brogan. 1882
Michael Brogan Jnr. ( dob unknown )
* Michael Brogan senior's father was also called Michael Brogan, and he also lived on the farm.
There are Brogan's living on Cappaghbaun / Cappybane Farm in the 1820's:
Stephen Brogan
James Brogan
Michael Brogan Jnr.
Could the above Brogan's be my ancestors??
( I'm already aware that in this Brogan family, James was found guilty of murder and sent to Australia. Bit I don't know the full details )
I would be very grateful if someone could help me confirm whether the Brogan's from the 1820's on Cappybane / Cappaghbaun are also my anceestors.
Regards,
Michael
Hi there,
Re your comment - I'm already aware that in this Brogan family, James was found guilty of murder and sent to Australia. Bit I don't know the full details -
I am not a descendant, but I am in Australia. Welcome to RChat, it's a great place for help with family history. Some of the following info I had posted back at reply #28. ;D (in 2016) :) :D :)
There’s more than one chap by that name who was transported to ‘Australia’. Here’s two who were sentenced to life and transported to the Colonies on the continent of Australia.
:) :) This chap was transported to the colony of Western Australia, but I have not noticed his native place mentioned on the indexes I have searched :
So this James BROGAN was sentenced to Life at a trial on 4 March 1852, Worcestershire Assizes He was transported per the Ramillies, arriving 7 August 1854, to the colony Western Australia.
https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/brogan/james/7710 and
Australian Joint Copying Project. Microfilm Roll 93, Class and Piece Number HO11/18, Page Number 87 (45) - see the following thread for info about the digitisation project at the National Library of Australia re AJCP… https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829521.0
Also see http://www.sro.wa.gov.au/archive-collection/collection/convict-records and
https://fremantleprison.com.au/history-heritage/history/convict-database/ (gives info re his Ticket of Leave (1857) and his conditional pardon (1862) and ‘to Callao, 25 Jan 1869)
:) :) Then there’s this chap
So this James BROGAN was a Farm Servant, from County Clare, born 1797, arrived per Marquis of Huntley to the colony of New South Wales. 30 January 1828 His Conditional Pardon was issued 1843. He had been tried at Galway, 4 April 1827 on Fire Arms and Burglary charges and received a Life Sentence. He was a married man, Roman Catholic, 5 Children. Assigned to George Windham, Hunters River NSW. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts-index
He was then assigned to William Carter at Piecefield, Hunter River as a shepherd as per November 1828 census. His wife and children came to New South Wales circa 1834.
He was possibly the chap who died Spring Valley, 7 Feb 1871. Probate Notice is 27 July 1875. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223686374 NSW Govt Gaz 27 July 1875.
Here is the NSW State Archives for the Probate Packet info
NRS-13660-2-[17/1781]-Series 2_1683 | James Brogan Date of death 7 February 1871, Granted on 11 August 1875
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/probate-packets-wills-guide
NSW BDM online index has that James BROGAN’s death registration, registered Goulburn district, parents given names as Bryan and Penelope. Ref 3558/1871.
The Goulburn Herald of 11 Feb 1871 has: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/101092581
Died, at Spring Valley, on the 7th instant, Mr James Brogan, aged 81 years, leaving a widow and very large circle of relatives and friends to lament his loss.
https://billiongraves.com/grave/James-Brogan/26803899
Would either of those two chaps be the chap you asked about?
There are Brogan's living on Cappaghbaun / Cappybane Farm in the 1820's:
Stephen Brogan
James Brogan
Michael Brogan Jnr.
Could the above Brogan's be my ancestors??
JM
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I forgot to include a possible third James BROGAN, transported under a sentence of a civil court:
25 Feb 1836, per the Roslyn Castle, into Sydney, the following Steerage passengers, wife and family of a James BROGAN. Under the heading on the image of the passenger lists “Names of Convicts Wives” and “Names of Children” “Ages of Children” and “County from whence convicts were transported":
Ellenor/Ellena BROGAN, wife of James Brogan (images shows he was transported from Cavan in 1829) and her children :
Margaret BROGAN aged 15
Judith BROGAN aged 13
Mary BROGAN aged 10
James BROGAN aged 8
JM
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Thanks for this extensive research, I really appreciate it.
However, I'm almost positive that I'm not related to any James Brogans who were sent / emigrated to Australia.
I think I'm related to the (1820-1850) Brogans who stayed on 'Cappybane' Mountain Farm, in Scariff, Clare.
This family :
Father: Michael Brogan
Children:
Stephen Brogan
Michael Brogan jnr
James ( either a son or Michael snr brother)
The above are the 1820's / 1830's Brogans.
The following are the 1830's / 1840's Brogans, who I assumed still lived on Cappybane / Cappaghabaun Mountain Farm.
Father: Stephen Brogan
(son of Michael )
Children:
Patrick
Stephen
Margaret
Michael
John
Bridget
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Here are the (mostly 1850's-1880's) Brogans of Cappabane / Cappybane / Cappaghabaun who I'm also related to:
Michael Brogan ( born 1834 )
( as mentioned in the previous family )
Married:
Ellen Brogan Doyle ( born 1840 )
aka Ellen Doyle Brogan
aka Ellen Doyle
aka Ellen Brogan
Children:
Mary (1858) died as a child
Michael (1860)
John (1862) died as a child
Mary (1863)
John (1865)
Martin (1867)
Patrick (1869)
Peter (1871)
Bridget (1873)
Stephen (1874)
Ellen (1877)
Margaret (1880)
James (1882)
Bernard (1885)
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I am a desc of James Brogan and Elleinor O'Brien. James & Ellen lived on five acres of rented land in Cappabane and was transported to NSW for the attempted murder of Philip Reade of Mount Shannon in 1824. James' trial No. 688 was held on the 4 April 1827, has held in Galway where he was sentenced to death for break, enter and discharging a firearm in County Galway although he lived in County Clare adjacent. His sentence was commuted to transport for life to New South Wales occupation given as Farm Servant.
James' was born abt 1791 and his parents were Bryan Brogan and Penelope O'Brien. Possible siblings were John b abt 1793, Michael b abt 1798.
His wife Elleinor and children joined him in 1838. His eldest sons Thomas and Peter followed on a later ship.
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Dear Fellow BROGAN descendants
Way back in 2016 I was in contact with Joy Conroy
Our BROGAN families were related by the transportation to NSW by the Brogan convicts.
I am related from Margaret Aloysius Brogan (my great grandmother who married Henry Gerald BIDDLE in Sydney NSW 1904.)
Margaret was the daughter of PETER BROGAN 1823-1886 and Margaret Elizabeth CLUNE 1833-1911.
Peter and Margaret BROGAN died at Spring Valley (south of Goulburn NSW)
There are some rather distressing facts about this family with police records and gaol sentences.
My Great Grandmother, Margaret Brogan was murdered in Surrey Hill in 1912, leaving my grandfather, a boy of 11, an orphan...Henry Gerald Biddle died 1911.
However my grandfather, John Henry BIDDLE was beautifully cared for by a colleague of his late father
and given a happy childhood in The Oaks near Camden NSW.
If anyone would like to have more history about the BROGAN family I am happy to share it
Turramurra
(Christine )
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Hi Christine
I am still around but slowed down a bit on my research on the Brogans. I still have the same email address if you need to make contact again.
Joy Conroy :)
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Hi Christine (Turramurra)
I am a descendant of James Brogan and Ellen Horan through their daughter Mary Brogan (who married William Payne). I am very interested in making contact with you. I have just joined RootsChat.com. Thank you for your offer to share.
Carmel
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Hi Joy Conroy
I'd like to get in contact with you about the Brogan family if you are still available.
Thanks
Carmel
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Hello all,
sorry for dredging up an old thread but after many years of absence from RC this is what has brought me back, a google search leading to this very thread! And I have made little inroads with this family so if this is a true connection then its wonderful because it will have cracked one of my toughest nuts.
I am a 3x great grandaughter of Margaret Brogan (b. abt 1835) who married Denis O'Neil in Goulburn NSW in 1857.
Some recent searches on Ancestry have resulted in suggestions that Margaret is the 18 year old Margaret who with her mother Ellen (the mentioned widow), immigrated to Sydney from Ireland with 7? family members on the ship China in 1854.
Much of the information seems to fit except I am struggling to make some links and understand the big picture.
I can't confidently place Ellen and Margaret in amongst the Brogans, some trees seem to suggest that a Bryan Brogan was Margarets father (+ mother 'Ellen'), and he died before the family emigrated but the only Bryan I can find was a "Bryan Hubert Brogan" who was married to "Penelope O'Brien" and if I'm following correctly they seem to be the parents of the Brogan brothers who emigrated? And also far too old to be Margarets father.
Additionally I have a death certificate for Margaret stating she died in Braidwood aged 96, was born in County Clare and her parents were MARTIN Brogan and Ellen Conroy.
My speculations/questions:
I know if she was 96 at her death maybe her memory wasn't too sharp or maybe the relatives got it wrong and her father was a Bryan and not Martin, or maybe Bryan/Martin was the son of Bryan Hubert and used Martin (middle name perhaps???) to differentiate himself?
Did Bryan Hubert & Penelope have a son Bryan?
Who was the James Snr. that sponsored the family to come out from Ireland? Was he the oldest of the Brogan sons? Did he himself come as well? Except for being the sponsor his name is not listed, only a much younger James.
Is anyone who has a better understanding of all the Brogans able to piece this together and help me understand it all? :D
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Actually with further investigation the whole 8 family members emigrating together including "Margaret and her widowed mother Ellen" doesn't make much sense either because there was a Bryan aged 36 included in the group which would be the right age to be the Bryan/Martin(???) that was Margaret's father.
The others were:
Michael aged 38
James 13
Ellen 30
Margaret 18
Patrick 27
Michael 14
& John 11
So confusing!
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The groups on the ship China in 1854.
1.
Ellen BROGAN, widow, aged 33 of Enniscorthy, Galway, parents Murty and Mary CONDRY (?), brother-in-law James BROGAN at Spring Valley near Goulburn
Margaret BROGAN, aged 18 of Enniscorthy, Galway, father Brian (dead), mother onboard.
2.
Patrick BROGAN, aged 27 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Bryan and Penny, both dead. Brother James at Goulburn.
Michael BROGAN, aged 14 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Thomas and Mary, both dead.
John BROGAN, aged 11 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Thomas and Mary, both dead.
Both - Uncle James at Goulburn.
3
Michael BROGAN, aged 39 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Bryan and Penny, both dead. Brother James BROGAN at Goulburn.
James BROGAN, aged 13 of Minnow, County Clare, parents Michael and Margaret, mother dead, father onboard.
.....there was a Bryan aged 36 included in the group which would be the right age to be the Bryan/Martin(???) that was Margaret's father.
Margaret's father Bryan died before departure. Her NSW marriage cert should name both of her parents and if that information is missing then you would need to track down the church record as it will be recorded there. This will confirm if the 1854 Margaret is yours.
I find it hard to believe that Penelope was Patrick's mother. She was supposedly born around 1770 so I doubt that she was having babies in 1827.
Debra :)
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Have been following the tread maybe this can explain some of your questions.
After 20 years after becoming free James Brogan had become affluent enough to pay a deposit of 40 pounds in July 1853 to bring his 3 brothers and the survivors of their families to join him in NSW in the wake of the great famine in Ireland.
Teenagers Michael and John sons of James' older brother Thomas and his wife Mary; another brother Michael, a widower and his son James : Patrick, the youngest of the brothers and unmarried; and sister-in law Ellen, wife of his brother Bryan and their daughter Margaret all arrived on the China on the 24 September 1854. The last mentioned brother, Bryan did not arrive and his daughter's immigration record shows that her father was then deceased.
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Hi Debra,
thanks for the clarification, after a few days of piecing them together on Ancestry that's how I suspected the family groups aligned.
Unfortunately Margarets marriage certificate has limited information, only her Husbands name, their religion and place they married/resided (Goulburn NSW), no place of origin, no parents, nothing for either of them. It is without a doubt one of the most frustratingly useless certificates I have paid for, and I've bought alot!
It does mention a Mary Durick as a witness which I thought could be a lead as I believe that is a name that ties in with the 'main Brogan family' of this topic.
Margaret's death certificate was the main basis of all my info I have for her, and now after years of no further leads I found people on Ancestry who had connected her to this 'main Brogan family' group which led me to this line of questioning. Her death certificate mentions mother as Ellen Conroy (looks like) and father as Martin, birthplace Co. Clare.
How do I obtain a RC Church record from NSW? Is it likely to contain any more info that the official marriage certificate?
oh ... I'd had the same though about Patrick, to young to be Penny's son, there's something amiss there! :D
Thanks,
Belinda
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Hi Joy, thanks for your response.
James seems to have prospered in the colonies after a rocky start being transported! Forty pounds in not a small amount of money :o
I had done some sleuthing and figured out the family dynamics here. Now I just need to try and find out if MY Margaret is 'the Margaret' from the China, or if she's a ring in that somehow ended up in the same place in NSW at a similar time as all these other Brogans :D ;)
I've not yet been able to locate an alternative, appropriately aged Margaret in the Brogan trees I've looked at on Ancestry, so I'm hopeful its her.
Thanks,
Belinda
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This is the information I had re Ellen and Margaret which you have;
BROGAN Ellen, 1854, age 33, born Enniscarty Father, Murty CONDRY / Mary xxxx Mother-in-law married to James Brogan, Spring Valley, near Goulburn *Ship China*
BROGAN Margaret 1854 18 born Enniscarty,Father Brian / Ellen xx Father dead;Mother on board. (Ellen Brogan, a widow).Ship China
Source: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maddenps/GALWAYEM.htm
Bryan Brogan and Penelope O'Brien were the parents of James Brogan (the convict).