RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Gary Deering on Tuesday 01 September 09 20:42 BST (UK)
-
Hi All just wondering is there anyone here with an interest in the War of Independence.My Great Uncle John Wilson (also known as Jack or Johnny)was arrested for his part in the burning of the Custom House in 1921, I can never find any information on him online, Just wondering has anyone ever heard him mentioned in anything to do with the War of Independence or the Civil war which he was an officer in the free state army according to family legend.Gary
-
Hello Gary
Yes, it would be great to start a new thread on this and ask the good people at Rootsweb for advice on how to find out more as I too am really struggling to find any details about (ordinary) participants in the WOI - my grandfather Denis Byrne was active and has the WOI medal with bar and I have a few miniscule references from his pension application to torment me! Just to let you know I have done a posting about 'Marino Lodge' which is related to the war of independence and had some great help. I also 'think' he was in the free state army as we have a photo of him in uniform, but he does not refer to this in the pension.
There doesn't seem to be much online but there are several books that I have jsut ordered that may help.
Ernie O'Malley - 'on another mans wounds' and 'raids and rallies'.
Tom Barry - 'Guerilla days in Ireland'.
Easter 1916 Sinn Feinn Rebellion Hanbook' (only from a library I think, unless you have a few bob!)
Some great interviews on YouTube.
I'm sure there are loads more as I've only just started researching this aspect of my grandfathers involvement in the war.
And have you accessed your great uncles pension application as this is where some detail can be found?
Should we start another link for 'war of independence' which may help us get more support and advice?
Good luck
Denis
-
Dear Dennis & Gary
The Custom House was attacked by men under the command of Oscar Traynor on 25th May 1921 and set alight.The fire lasted until the 31st but the stonework continued to crack until the month of October. Most of the Irregulars involved were captured when an alert British Army patrol threw a cordon around the building and summoned reinforcements. Clearly the object was to destroy the Local Government Board records therein as without them the Board was "in the dark' when dealing with the local authorities which in the South were mainly under Sinn Fein Control.
The building was severely damaged and although rebuilt is not the same internally as it was.
The Bureau of Military History 1913-1921 (formerly in Westland Row) I believe is now open to the public and doubtless will contain material of relevance to you. If the Sinn Fein book to which reference is made'is the one that was produced by the Irish Times newspaper then it is not relevant to the period 1919-1921.
Regards Quaxer
-
Hi folks, wonder if this link will be of use to you,
Also if you check Irish defence forces website there
should be a link there to the military archives in
Cathal Brugha barracks.
Anne
http://www.irishsoldiers.com/Research/tracing.htm
-
My great grandfather apparently supplied the petrol/fuel that helped burn it down! :P
My gran even had the receipt! But she can't find it at the moment, she says it's "somewhere" in the house :(
-
Thanks all for the advice, Denins my grandfather (William Deering 1900) too was in the British Army around the time of WW1, he also was involed in the War of Independence & my Dad said he had a Picture of Michael Collins on the wall for years ! so not hard too work out which side he went for in the civil war ! Have you tried too see if the National Archives of the UK have a medal card for your Grandfather ?
-
Thanks for the clarification Quaxar, and apologies for misdirection. What was the source of that detail on the Custom House?
Alicat84, what other goodies might be hidden in your grans house, thats a great piece of history there ...
Sorry Gary, Denis Byrne wasn't in the British army, the WOI medal I referred to is the Irish War of Independence medal and I didn't think the UK National Archives held this detail, but I have had information from Cathal Barracks.
Going back to your original question, apart from the well known protagonists, I too would really value any advice on how to obtain information on who took part in raids and actions for the Irish Army in Dublin, if such a thing exists? The statements at the Irish National Archives may contain references but it took a dedicated researcher a year to read through them all, so I wondered if the names of activists had been documented anywhere!
Denis
-
Tommobecket
Your No.6 refers
Information from various sources made up my response including the following:
The Black & Tans by Richard ........
Lost Dublin by Frederick O'Dwyer
Public Works by the A.A.I. (Office of Public Works 1831-1987)
My later mother (in her childhood ) was a witness to the fire being trapped on the Quays at the time. She was rescued with other civilians by a British Army patrol and taken by a truck to Portobello Barracks as she lived in nearby Leinster Square. In her lifetime she related that adventure to me.
Regards Quaxer
-
Hi All just wondering is there anyone here with an interest in the War of Independence.My Great Uncle John Wilson (also known as Jack or Johnny)was arrested for his part in the burning of the Custom House in 1921, I can never find any information on him online, Just wondering has anyone ever heard him mentioned in anything to do with the War of Independence or the Civil war which he was an officer in the free state army according to family legend.Gary
Hi all
I was really interested to see your postings. My Grandfather was a Corporal in the Irish Free State Army (this was listed as his profession on my Dad's birth certificate!). As I understand it alot of men of Irish decent joined the Free State Army after they were demobed from their units after WWI. My Grandad had served as a Private in the Royal Scots Fusiliers during this time. His time in the Irish Free Army is something I have not attempted to find out about....yet. :)
-
Hi Gary,
My grandfather was also captured for taking part in the burning of the Customs House. I also had trouble finding any information about him. The only thing I knew was after he was captured he was taken to Kilmainham Goal. I wrote to the Goal and the people there were very helpful, they even found a photograph of my grandfather, taken whilst he was in the Goal.
I also wrote to - Veteran’s Allowance Section, Department of Defence, (DOD) Renmore, Galway asking if he had applied for a pension. I did get a reply within a few weeks saying that they would look into my request. But it did take nearly two years before I got the information.
I now know that he was in 'E' Company, 2nd Battalion, Dublin Brigade. I also have his Army Number from when he joined the National Army where he was the Company Sergant Major. I know he recived the Service Medal 1917-1921. his OC from 1917 - 1920 was Sean Russell and from 1920 - 1921 was William Byrne. There is also mentioned on his application a Patrick Daly ex Major General. I don't know if these names mean anything to you.
I have tried looking for information on his Company on the internet, but unfortunetly can find every other except 'E' Company. If anyone out there can shed any light on this for me it would be much appriciated. Here is the picture of my grandfather, his name was Philip Christopher Flynn and he shared a cell with a man called Leo Duffy. The people at the Goal also found some of his writings in an autograph book that had been signed by the prisoners. Wishing you luck in your search.
.
-
Hi! This is a very interesting strand. I am doing some research on the Custom House - my father's uncle was killed there. My intention is to produce a book about the event, and so far with the internet I have found a lot of stray pieces of information. My great-uncle's name was Edward Dorins and he was also a member of E Co, Second Battalion. I would be grateful for any information that people have and I will try to find out more based on what you have given here. The only other member of E Co known to me was Capt Daniel J Begley, who was a veteran of the Easter Rising and died in 1940. I have no evidence that he was at the Custom House but it seems likely. I found an obituary from the Irish Independent for Capt. John Wilson which I don't have with me at the time of writing but I will post it as soon as I have the chance. I will also add PC Flynn to my list and let you know if I find anything else about him.
-
As promised, here is the information on John Wilson:
"Capt John Wilson, 51 Saul Road, Crumlin, who has died, was a former member of C Company 3rd Engineers, I.R.A., and of the Dublin Brigade Active Service Unit.
He was captured during the burning of the Custom House and interned. He was in later years a member of the staff of Bord na Mona.
The funeral took place after Mass in St Bernadette's Church, Clogher Road, Crumlin to Mount Jerome Cemetery.
The chief mourners were Mrs E Wilson (widow); Jack and Jerry (sons); Joan (daughter); Mrs M Quinn and Mrs Smith (sisters); Mrs McKenna (mother-in-law); George McKenna (brother-in-law); Mrs K Murphy (sister-in-law); Messrs J and M Scully (uncles); Miss Scully (aunt); Mrs M Wilson (sister-in-law).
The attendance included Mr J Carroll, T.C.; Col W Stapleton and Mrs Stapleton; Comdt T Donnelly; Comdt V Byrne; Capt W Corri agus Mrs Corri; Capt J Kerrigan; Capt D Hannon and Mrs Hannon; Capt E Breslin, Mr J Murphy and D Morrissey.
A firing party at the graveside consisted of members of the 2nd Batt Eastern Command, under Lieutenant Goggin."
Irish Independent, July 09, 1955. p. 13. Some of those mentioned were definitely at the Custom House - V Byrne, who is mentioned in the film Michael Collins (Vinny Byrne), Stapleton, Donnelly and Ned Breslin were all definitely there.
-
Seanod, wow, what an incredible piece of research, and what a send off for the hero - with attendance by famous names of Micheal Collins 'Squad', Bill Stapleton and Vinny Byrne, to pay their respects, an honour indeed. I have just found out that my grandfather too had a firing party at his funeral in 1940, it would be wonderful to know who attended. What a very rich source of information from the obituary.
Quaxer, fascinating to put the pieces together isn't it, again, what a great piece of research and a first hand experience too, wonderful. Yes, I've just got borrowed The 'Lost Dublin' book and obtained what seems to be the only image in the world of 'Littles' public house where my grandfather saw action in 1916. Indispensable.
Margnip, it took me almost 2 years too, to get the pension but well worth the wait!
Has there ever been a list or a biographical record of all those who either fought in 1916 or the anglo irish war? Isn't this an essential legacy of Irish History?
There is some remarkable stuff in this thread, wonderful.
-
I do have to say that it is very hard to get information on people who fought back then, if they are not high profile. I have got further than I thought, and hope to find out more. My uncle has told me what he can remember his father telling him, and I am writing down these stories. But I have no proof that these things were true, or if time has faded memories and a veteran was streching the truth. I do know that he was shot twice as this was how he met my Grandmother. She was in Cumann Na mBan and tended to his wounds.
seanod, thanks for that. Very interesting, and good to see that their are people who are interested in this part of history to keep it alive.
Here is another photo, this time with Leo Duffy. I do'nt know if he was captured at the Customs House but my Uncle told me he was executed. Also some images from the autograph books my Granddad signed
-
And some more from the autograph book.
-
Yes, It's a disgrace that so much of the history of that time has been lost. The published histories give very little information about who was involved and my great-uncle is only mentioned in a couple of them because he was killed. Hopefully enough people will contribute to sites like this and Wikipedia and we will be able to make up for the shameful lack of published information. I think I have found Leo Duffy. He did die violently, but a long time after the War of Independence and the Civil War. He was shot by his brother who seems to have had mental problems at his home in Rathmines at New Year 1938. He was the Vice President of the Old Dublin Brigade Association and served in C Company, 2nd Battalion. Haven't found anything about Phillip Flynn yet but I'll keep trying. All the best!
-
That just shows how stories can get mixed up. My mother always said he had been shot, and my uncle said he had been executed. They would have been both very young children in 1938 so may have overheard Leo Duffy being talked about.
Unfortunatly I live in England so find researching my family quite hard. Can only get over once or twice a year, and at the moment have only been once this year.
Good luck with the book.
-
So far I have had no luck finding this Dennis Byrne - there were quite a few Byrnes around, such as Joe Byrne, Vinnie Byrne and an E. Byrne but I couldn't find any obituaries for this Dennis in the Irish Independent. He is not mentioned in the book on the Squad by T. Ryle Dwyer or in the Who's Who of the Irish War of Independence. Couldn't find P. Flynn either. So far I haven't started looking for material in the Irish Press. As this isn't on the digitised Irish Newspaper archive it's much harder to access and search but I will certainly do it over the next year. If I do find anything, I will post it here but hopefully other people reading this may be able to provide you with information. If I do get around to publishing, is there any chance of getting permission to use some of the images provided here?
-
I will have to ask the rest of the family, most of Philip Flynns' children are still alive. But I don't see any problem with that.
As for finding anymore information about him I think it will be very hard if not impossible. But would be most grateful if you pass on anything that you may find.
Other information I have on my granddad is that he joined the Volunteers at the reorganization after 1916, E Co II Batt. He was later attached to the Intelligence belonging to that company. He also took part in the attack on the L N W Rly Hotel(?). He was imprisoned in Kilmainham Goal until December 1921.
His home address when he joined was Clarks' Cottage, Lower Summer Hill Parade, Dublin.
Thanks for your help.
-
Special Branch Records of IRA Suapects
I came across this CD for sale by TCD
Sinn Fein and Republican Suspects 1899-1921: Dublin Castle Special Branch Files CO 904 (193-216)
Eneclann presents a first time publication of the Dublin Castle intelligence files on individual Sinn Fein and Republican suspects between 1899 and 1921. Also known as the ‘personalities files’, these RIC Special Branch files contain secret intelligence on over 440 individual suspects who were under surveillance, including Eamon de Valera, Michael Collins, James Connolly, Roger Casement as well as many ordinary individuals.
Yours for 50€ from http://www.eneclann.ie/acatalog/ENEC015.html
-
Thanks for that Margnip and also thanks for the information on the Special Branch files. I will probably be going to the Archives in Dublin some time soon so I'll check and see whether I can get them there free of charge first. Keep the information, suggestions and questions coming!
-
Tommobecket, You were asking if there was a list of all those who took part in the conflict anywhere. There isn't, but I was in Dublin on Saturday and stopped in at Connolly Books in Temple Bar. Well worth a visit (Connolly Books, not Temple Bar in general). Anyway, I bought a book, details here:
http://www.amazon.com/Dublin-Rebellion-Directory-Joseph-Connell/dp/1843511371
It certainly isn't exhaustive but there are lists of all those in the different Brigades at the time of the Easter Rising, many of whom were still in these brigades later on during the War of Independence. Worth investing in if you are interested in that period.
-
Forgot to mention there that John Wilson is mentioned in that book in passing, as one of those in the Squad or associated with it. Couldn't find a Dennis Byrne or a Phillip Flynn in it. Sorry!
-
Corisande - this sounds a great source nonetheless, thankyou - I've given up hope of finding Denis Byrne in any records, either he was so underground as to be invisible, his involvement was marginal, or he was just an ordinary bloke who like many was periphal but intrinsic, so despite having a war of independence medal with Comrac bar there doesn't seem to be any documentary evidence of him. Have asked Dept of Defence and prepared to wait two years for a response. Very frustrating.
Will try and source the Corisande suggestion but I'm sure this too will be a forlorn search.
I found an obituary for him in Irish Times as suggested but need to subscribe, so will have to wait for that.
These are tremendous sources and first class top tips. Is this detail collated anywhere as I am constantly amazed by the variety of sources available and which are continually new to me (although I'm new to this and constantly amazed anyway by the knowledge and insight people have!)
The mystery we face is that Denis only records his active service in his pension application up to February 1918. Yet we have a photo of him in what appears to be a free state uniform, and Mary his wife in what may be a Cumman na mBan unifrorm, but again, having asked in a variety of places I can get no confirmation, so any help would be most gratefully received. We have a few stories passed down of him avoiding the black and tans and having a gun which suggests activity post 1918 but he defiantly does not record any service post 1918.
Strangely, after 1916 he records his commanding officer as being James Connolly (Denis was in the ICA), which alludes to a powerful allegiance to his old leader.
fascinating posts and great reading - good luck in your search seanod and gary, its hard work isn't it ...
-
Tommobecket, You say you found an obituary for him in the Irish Times. Do you have a date for it? I may be able to access it for you but it isn't a very user friendly database, so I would need to have a rough date for it.
-
According to the Dublin in Rebellion book, there were only three Byrnes in the Easter Rising who were members of the ICA. John, Patrick and Louis. Louis was killed and the other two were imprisoned in Frongoch. Is it possible he was recorded under a different name? A lot of people in Ireland are known by their middle name and never use their official name at all.
-
seanod, there does seem to be a reference to a Philip Flynn in the Irish Times. The date is Thursday 27th January 1949 page 6. The heading is 'Meal Caused Man's Death'. This may not be my granddad, but he died 26th December 1948 from food poisoning. I know it may not be relevent to this thread, but if you could look it up I would be grateful, they want over 60 euros to have a copy of the page sent out!
-
Thank you Seanod, I had heard is was in the squad but like many family things they get blown up too be more then they where, so I did not post it. What I heard was he joined the IRA as a young lad & was caught in the Custom House.He had been on the run for a long time & always carried a gun, The Tans raided his parents place quite often so he was known to them.He also got my grandfather(his brother) in on the act in a small way ie hiding rifles under the bed of my grandmother when she was pregnant !When he was caught in the Custon House he was given a death sentance (again must have used the gun) & he was released when the treaty was signed & became a Captain in the free state army.He was buried with full honours.Every time I see Michael Collins funeral I am looking out for someone that looks like my granddad as I never seen a picture of Johnny.
-
Margnip, It was hard to locate anything about Philip Flynn. There was an actor of that name in the Dublin theatre at that time. I used the browse function to find the copy you cited, anyway and found this:
Meal Caused Man's Death
A verdict that death was due to cardiac failure and haemorrhage caused by food he had eaten in England was returned at the inquest held at the Mater Hospital, Dublin, on Philip Flynn, Summer Place, Summerhill. He was employed as a clerk in the R.A.F. and was stationed at Essex.
Evidence was that Flynn had a meal of fish and chips in London before coming to Dublin on December 23rd. He became ill and was attended by a doctor. When he arrived home he again got an attack and on December 26th he became unconscious and died shortly afterwards.
That's all there is. Doesn't look very hopeful, as I can't see the RAF employing an IRA veteran to do their accounts! Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. At least you know it's not relevant and you won't have to pay sixty euros to get it!
-
Seanod
Thanks for your help and effort and doing the look ups, really very appreciated.
I'm aware he isn't in the documented lists, as saw the link on here. A friend on a Merseyside geneaology website helped with the following - "... although there is a record of a Denis Bryan from to have come from a list made by Dr Ann Matthews in a recent book edited by Ruan O'Donnell The Impact of the 1916 Rising; Among The Nations, She has also written on the ICA in the same book 'Vanguard of the Revolution? The Irish Citizen Army 1916'. I can't see a Denis Byrne in the list but there is a Denis Bryan in the Aungier St No. 2 Company whose address is given as 8 Vances Buildings in Bishop St.". I
I wondered if the name may have been wrongly transcibed, but there is another Bryan in the list so probably not. I think I have found our Denis Byrne in 1911 census residing in Mansion House in Bishop street, so potential link. Tentative, but I'm grasping at straws.
I've got his pension application from 1935 with verification and witnesses etc so clearly he took part, but not in any of the existing lists. Somebody suggested these are not yet comprehensive with further additions to come?
We don't know his middle name. My dads name (his son) was John (Sean?), so another profoundly weak link (but they're adding up)
Denis died on February 20th 1940. (I appear to have lost the reference for the Times but it was late February 1940! Keeping records not a strong point as you can see ...)
Seanod and Margnip, you're absolute stars honestly, thankyou
Denis
-
seanod don't apologize. That man is my granddad. You don't know how happy you have made me finding this. Thank you. Philip Flynn did join the RAF in about 1942, he was in a Lancaster Bomber, rear gunner we think, he also spent time up on the Isle of Lewis. After the war he stayed working as a clerk. The story about him eating fish and chips in England is one I grew up with. Is there anyway I can get a copy of this without paying a hefty fee. We will not be going to Dublin again till next year, but if I know where to go that would be helpful. My mother said there was a piece about him in the Evening Herald.
Once again thanks.
-
Just came across this tonight.
Ninety-seven Volenteers were sentenced to death but had the sentence reduced to some years of penal servitude.
Sentenced to death but commuted to penal servitude
J Wilson 2 years
P Wilson 3 years
W Wilson 3 years
There is a big list of names which i will post ASAP
-
That's great! Glad to be of help. I'm not much of a one for technology but I'll try to post a copy of it here. S.
-
Margnip, could you email me at (*)?
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Sorry about that! I'm not very good with information technology. ???
-
Thanks for that gormangenealogy, so what I heard was true about the Death sentence .
Just something I seen here on this thread & got me wondering, How many Ex IRA men joined the British in WWII ? My Grandfather William Deering (not the same as the post theres 3 Williams on my side) Was a Boy Soldier served in India, then Left the BA & joined the IRA was also in the Free State Army & then Rejoined the British in WWII. Being around 40 at the time or maybe aware of his IRA past he was put in the pioneer corps.
-
Thanks to Gormangenealogy for that. That information is in an appendix in the Dublin in Rebellion book I mentioned, on page 406. I hadn't noticed it before and it's not in the index, so thanks for pointing it out. It is very odd that these people were allowed to join the British Army or RAF with their IRA records, but I suppose circumstances change and Irish Republicans were always a mixture of different people with different politics, ranging from Communist to Fascist.
-
It is very odd that these people were allowed to join the British Army or RAF with their IRA records
I would very much doubt that the recruiting offices had either time or the facilities (ie ability to check criminal databases) to see if a recruit had an IRA past.
-
Very true, They would have made great training officers for the SAS working behind enemy lines,but I am sure your right they did not know about there past.
-
True enough, I didn't look at it like that! I suppose these days you have to present a full CV but back then ...
-
...back then you just said "Where do I sign Sir?"
-
Not sure whether people have come across the book The History of the Sinn Fein Movement and the 1916 Rebellion before but there is a list of names in the Appendix that might be of interest
http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofsinnfei00joneuoft#page/434/mode/2up
-
Thanks for that. I'll check it against the book Dublin in Rebellion: A Directory, to see whether the details tally or not. It may contain new information. I'll let you know when I get back to Ireland next Wednesday.
-
I am looking forward to getting my hands on that book,Would anyone be interested in that CD rom of the British files,if a few of us clubbed in together it would take the weight out of the price.
-
I am looking forward to getting my hands on that book,Would anyone be interested in that CD rom of the British files,if a few of us clubbed in together it would take the weight out of the price.
I have access to the Special Branch Files (Dublin Castle) data mentioned earlier - if you want to post some details I'll try to arrange a lookup for you. Much of the files are in the form of hand written notes and letters - so it's not easy to read or search..
Shane
-
Hi. Just about to head off but briefly, thanks for the offer Shane and I will certainly take you up on it re. a couple of people. Gary, I don't know if you noticed this but if you follow the enaclann link to the CD Rom of Special Branch files, there is a list of the names of the subjects. The link to it is down below the system requirements. Not great business sense on their part putting that in, but highly commendable! No Denis Byrne, Philip Flynn, Eddie Dorins, unfortunately. Forgot to check for John Wilson. Slán go fóill!
-
No Seanod I did not notice that link ! pity the 2 names I was looking for are not on it,there must be a lot more in the UK as the Tans & Auxs must have kept a lot too.Thanks for the offer Shanew but looks like the info I am looking for is not on the branch files.
-
As promised, here is the information on John Wilson:
"Capt John Wilson, 51 Saul Road, Crumlin, who has died, was a former member of C Company 3rd Engineers, I.R.A., and of the Dublin Brigade Active Service Unit.
He was captured during the burning of the Custom House and interned. He was in later years a member of the staff of Bord na Mona.
The funeral took place after Mass in St Bernadette's Church, Clogher Road, Crumlin to Mount Jerome Cemetery.
The chief mourners were Mrs E Wilson (widow); Jack and Jerry (sons); Joan (daughter); Mrs M Quinn and Mrs Smith (sisters); Mrs McKenna (mother-in-law); George McKenna (brother-in-law); Mrs K Murphy (sister-in-law); Messrs J and M Scully (uncles); Miss Scully (aunt); Mrs M Wilson (sister-in-law).
The attendance included Mr J Carroll, T.C.; Col W Stapleton and Mrs Stapleton; Comdt T Donnelly; Comdt V Byrne; Capt W Corri agus Mrs Corri; Capt J Kerrigan; Capt D Hannon and Mrs Hannon; Capt E Breslin, Mr J Murphy and D Morrissey.
A firing party at the graveside consisted of members of the 2nd Batt Eastern Command, under Lieutenant Goggin."
Irish Independent, July 09, 1955. p. 13. Some of those mentioned were definitely at the Custom House - V Byrne, who is mentioned in the film Michael Collins (Vinny Byrne), Stapleton, Donnelly and Ned Breslin were all definitely there.
I dont know how I missed this on the thread again thanks Seannog, nice to see my grandmother listed Mrs M Wilson (sister in law)
-
No problem, Gary. This thread seems to have stalled temporarily! Aren't there any other people out there with Custom House connections? What about the Stapletons, Byrnes, O'Reillys, Heads, Freynes, Prendergasts, Dowdalls, etc. etc.?? Or even the relatives of the non-combatants who were killed and injured - Myers from the Fire Brigade, James Connolly the quay labourer, Davies the caretaker, Mahon Lawless? Or even the injured Auxiliaries, Beaumont, Lewis, Tottenham? If you have any information for us, then please sign up and share your information!
-
.
Aren't there any other people out there with Custom House connections
seanod
Things in Ireland are never that straightforward :)
If you really want to know, my grandfather was in the Custom House that day. If I were to start getting into what "your side" did to my family, I think we would take this thread away from the realms of genealogy
I suspect that there are many others in the same position!
-
Hi Corisande, I live in Ireland and I would agree with you, but I personally have no animosity towards anyone with regard to what happened back then. It is part of our history and we have to preserve as much of it as possible, and as objectively as possible. In other words, who was your grandfather and which side are we talking about? I am interested in anyone who was involved in the events of that day, regardless of who they are. :)
-
:)
:)
-
I'll take that as a no! Hope you'll change your mind later as the thread continues. :)
-
Had an eventful time did my grandfather. The Easter Rising and the Somme. This is his account of the Custom House
On 26th May 1921 the Custom House in Dublin was attacked by a strong force of rebels who burnt and gutted the building. Some weeks before the attack leaders of Sein Fein had penetrated the buildings and offices in the Custom House, and took notice that military guards had been withdrawn from the protection of the premises and that only a few police patrolled the front and rear of the buildings. Plans were drawn up for attacking the Custom House and put into operation on 25th May. At about noon that day the attack was opened by the IRA troops with grenades, rifles and machine guns. The Custom House was cut off from all communication from the outside world at a time when most officials were out at lunch and only a skeleton staff was on duty. Large quantities of paraffin oil had been commandeered in the city and transferred to petrol tins which the IRA troops brought into the buildings. They saturated everything with the oil, including papers and other inflammable materials. In a short time the whole building was one mass of flame.
I was alone working in the legal department, and I went out onto the landing facing the Liffey. I was immediately stopped by two armed men and escorted down to a room on the basement floor. In that room I found a number of Inland Revenue and LGB staff, both male and female, who told me that the Custom House had been attacked. This was certainly apparent from the noise of explosions and rifle shots. We were held there by IRA sentries on the door for some time, till suddenly the window of the room was broken in by police with the butts of their rifles. We were ordered to put up our hands, and the rebel guards disappeared. The police asked us questions as to our identity. I fortunately had my army papers on me which I produced. In a few minutes they ordered us to get out of the building. I told the police officer that I knew the Custom House layout and offered assistance to guide them round. With a few of his men he came with me to my office. I noticed through the window that flames from the opposite side of the court yard had spread, and now the woodwork on my office window was alight. I realised that I ought to try to save many of the documents from the strong rooms of the office. With the aid of the police I threw papers down onto the Quays. After some time the woodwork round the windows was really blazing and the police ordered me to get out. The documents lay on the Quay for some time until retrieved by officials from Dublin castle.
On leaving the Custom House via a side door onto the Quays I found Mr Ernest Leach Assistant Secretary to the LGB and Mr Frank McCauly LG Inspector identifying a party of officials to military and other Government officials. I was told to get away as quickly as I could. I proceeded to move away when I was told that it would not be safe to go through the watching crowd of spectators. An ambulance was standing by, and I was instructed that the driver would take me out of the area. I thought that TCD would be a good quiet pace to be dropped off at, and the ambulance took me there via the Lincoln Place Gate. We entered the grounds of TCD and seeing that there was nobody around, I stopped the ambulance and slipped out. I made for Westland Row Railway Station where I took a train to Bray
Maybe you can tell me who the IRA guards were.
-
thanks for posting that information corisande... it's great to read a description of such an event written by someone who was actually there, rather that something 2nd hand in a history book.
Shane
-
Thanks for that, Corisande. I see what you mean by "the other side!" I've already come across that piece in the autobiography of Charles William Grant, presumably posted by you. There is a long piece in the book The Black and Tans about another man mentioned by your grandfather, Ernest Leach, though his name is not given in that book, only his rank. Having identified the rebels, he was warned by the police that he was in danger and went to England on holiday. There he was told to keep on moving as he was being followed. In the end, the poor man had a nervous breakdown and was pensioned out. I had often wondered what his name was and was pleased to find his name in your grandfather's account. It's all grist to the mill. A propos of nothing (as they say) we live quite near Holywood where your grandfather lived after he left Dublin and we often walk along the lough shore there.
-
My grandparents were eventually forced out of Dublin. Which is why I was brought up in Northern Ireland
I was christened in Holywood C of I. Fairly obvious why we were living in Holywood :) We lived on the main road at Priory Corner then.
Another thing my grandfather was involved in was the relief of Dublin Castle during the Easter Rising. He took a group of Dublin Fusiliers from Royal Barracks to Dublin Castle and they got shot up by the rebel forces under Heuston in the Mendicity Institute. I have just fond the complete account by someone elses grandfather who was in the Institute and describes the action from their side.
I suppose it is only with the passage of time that all these stories are starting to be told
If nothing else I have the skills and resources to make information available, including that autobiography of my grandfather that you have read. I took the whole thing into Dublin Castle last year and spent several hours with the archivist then. Interestingly the only people who did not want to see me were the Shelbourne Hotel, where the British Machines were mounted to clear St Stephens Green - they claimed to have no knowledge of this!
I am not wanting to hi-jack your thread - but you did lead a bit with your chin when asking for more information.
A propos of nothing - I live in Spain now!
-
Thanks for that account of your grandfather corisande. It is interesting to read about the story from the other side. I knew little about Irish history having been brought up in England since I was a small child. I knew about my granddad since an early age, but not about the history.
When I started doing my family history, a few years ago, was also when I started delving into the history of Ireland. I have found it a very sensitive subject when asking my relatives questions. Even my mother takes a bit of persuading to talk about things. But if my mothers generation do not tell the stories now then they will be lost forever.
I too would like to hear from others who were involved in the Customs House, this all adds to the history of the event.
-
… if my mothers generation do not tell the stories now then they will be lost forever.
In a nutshell I think you have explained why so much of our recent (200 years) history has been lost. It was not a fire in 1922 or inadvertent destruction of Census records.
“Who fears to speak of ’98?”
We don’t talk about ’98 or the Tithes Wars or the Widow’s Field or the Famine or the Fenians or the IRB or 1916 or the War of Independence or the Treaty or the Truce or the Civil War because we don’t want to upset “the other side”.
Well in my humble opinion, it’s about time we got over our shame about the past. There is no other side. It’s only us and if we don’t start talking soon, another layer of Irish History will be consigned to the official story of the History Book.
Dara.
-
Ok to stay on track I'll add Michael Smith E company 2nd Batt to the role call that day. I don't have much detail. He brought a lorry of paraffin. Doesn't say he was arrested.
On the sensitivities, well, you just have to give people the benefit of the doubt. I haven't seen any dirty rubs on rootschat. It does seem like a pleasant chin wag. I think the way I look at each issue is, we're chatting here with common issues. I tend to adapt to the mindset of talking to a friend about their family. So I usually try to fall into their shoes.
I hope others feel relaxed enough to share everything and anything. Things get lost over sensitive hotspots.
My partners family did the opposite journey over the boarder. No sensitivities about that. If it hadn't happened we would never have mix our genes and begot the next installment of the saga.
-
Same company and battalion as my granddad, may have known each other then. What relation was he to you, and do you have anymore info on E company?
-
I'm afraid I haven't collected much info about E company itself. He joined 1915. He's my grand father. A basic summary would be: Jacobs, Great Northern Railway raid, Kilmainham escape, customs house, Four courts. He also served in the Emergency. He seems to be involved in raids and general shifting around of arms. He does mention Bloody sunday on his pension. But I'm not sure what he meant by that. He may have had mixed feeling about it. E company were used that day along with the squad.
So thats my biggest loose end. (I think because of the mixed feelings it really has intrigued me.)
E company seems to have many from the Ballybough area. He lived on Bayview Ave and then in Summerhill. He also was in the Laurence O'Toole GAA club, which seems to be common among them. He left a brief statement just with his family. I often wonder on roots, I'm I talking to someones who descends from a close friend of his.
It would be great if there was a general info pool that relates to the statements and stories past down. For instance. He drops these names. The Young bros, Paddy Mitchell, Davy bros[london], Mick mc Donnell, john comber, tom Keogh, Martin savage, Farren, Jim Dempsey, Dr Vincent white, comm.Kelly
also detective "flash" and detective O'Brien and detective Barton. I share these just in case it makes someones day. But I'd love to think if the name Michael Smith turned up on someone else's story, especially personal accounts, that I'd get to hear about it.
I wonder too was the world and his wife attacking the Customs House. There seems to be loads involved. I never realised. It must have been madness on the day.
-
Thanks for that Corisande,its great to get an inside view of the events, to be honest I am not interested in an us & them situation, I am just interested in what members of my family got up to in the past so I can pass it down to my son. Funny in 1916 2 members of my family where Dublin Fusiliers !
Its great to see this information seeing the light of day ! I just hope theres some left for Seannod`s book!
-
This is great! I think there'll be enough left for my book - I have 66 names so far, the 66th being Michael Smith of E Co. (Thanks for that!) There were at least 120 involved in the Custom House, but I have never seen a clear breakdown of that figure. Is this just the people who were involved in the burning and the pickets outside, or does it include all the people who held up the fire stations and cut the telephone lines? Corisande, if you can tear yourself away from your tapas and Rioja (jealousy talking) - even if we don't share the same political perspective, any chance of quoting from your grandfather's very interesting document if I manage to get the book written?
-
There were at least 120 involved in the Custom House, but I have never seen a clear breakdown of that figure. Is this just the people who were involved in the burning and the pickets outside, or does it include all the people who held up the fire stations and cut the telephone lines? Corisande, if you can tear yourself away from your tapas and Rioja (jealousy talking) - even if we don't share the same political perspective, any chance of quoting from your grandfather's very interesting document if I manage to get the book written?
Feel free to quote from my stuff.
I am interested to see how many were actively involved and where the 120 were sited.
One of the great problems with doing what you are trying to do is on the one hand get information that has not been in the public domain before (ie personal information from say viewers of this thread), and on the other hand aim off for tales that may be an exaggeration of someones involvement As they say in Ireland "never let the truth get in the way of a good story"
My feeling is that there were not vast numbers actually in the Custom House, but there were a lot loitering outside who may or may not have been involved. Really intersting to know where they all were.
The tales of people like Leach, the Assistant Secretary to the LGB having the "frighteners" put on him are, as you know fairly ubiquitous and indeed true. I would have thought that you could get quite a lot from government records on that
As for the tapas, it is a warm 25 here today, and soon time to pull myself away from the computer for the very same
-
I think its the same with every family these storys get blown way up, also it serves some people to have others think they or there familys did big things in the past.Its very hard to get most people to admit there family where free state during the civil war !
I think there was around 90 captured, so if you could get that list you would be on the pigs back, I also heard something about a second set of withness statements taken by the army during the second world war,there is surposed to be a book out containing a lot of them. I think the idea was that if we got invaded we would use the tactics of the war of independence to fight the Germans or British, another guerilla war.
-
... My Great Uncle John Wilson (also known as Jack or Johnny)was arrested for his part in the burning of the Custom House in 1921...
Your honesty is a lesson for all of us. Thank you for that.
Dara.
-
??????
-
Getting the basic facts right is not easy :(. For example, many of the printed sources give the death toll among the IRA as 6. In fact, it seems to have been 5 and there are only five names on the memorial. Estimates for the arrested range from 70 to 100. Of these, I think the vast majority must have been inside the building. Remember they needed a lot of manpower to torch all the different offices on the three floors in a hurry and also to get the office staff downstairs in one place. The usual account is that the second battalion were inside, the first battalion outside with the squad. But Dan Head, who died outside the building on picket duty was of the second battalion. ??? And according to Vinnie Byrne, Eddie Dorins died with him and he was also second battalion. I am not even sure how many members a battalion would have had in that conflict. Mr Smoketoomuch, I was looking at your list of names. Tom Keogh and Mick McDonnell were both there (Keogh was captured) and I know of Vincent White but have no written evidence that he was at the Custom House, just a strong likelihood. I am trying to get hold of the Military Commission of Inquiry into the incident which was reported in the press (and seems to give specific information like where different people died) and which was used in the death certificates but I haven't located a copy so far. Corisande, many thanks! Hope you enjoyed the tapas and tinto.
-
Estimates for the arrested range from 70 to 100. Of these, I think the vast majority must have been inside the building.
I would be surprised if it was that many. My recollection of what my grandfather told me was that there were comparatively small numbers running around inside the building. Admittedly he was on one floor, but was taken down to the basement and would have had some idea as to the numbers. I must say I have not really done a cross check on what he wrote on the Custom House, but I have done a very thorough check on what he wrote on his life during the Easter Rising and it is remarkably accurate against official records
As with all these events there are many hangers on or spectators who now want to be associated with it. It is very difficult to say whether a man claiming to have been in the building but never arrested, was actually there, or escaped without being caught. Or may just have been a spectator outside the building and somehow his involvement has been exaggerated within the family over the years.
-
Well, it would be in the interests of the IRA to play down the numbers and it would be in the interests of the British to exaggerate them, so I think around 70 would be the absolute minimum. Remember that they left the building by a few different routes, through windows and doors, so your grandfather may not have been in a position to judge how many there were. I don't think many were captured outside - they were either killed or they escaped quickly, realising that there was no point in staying because they were massively outgunned. And my information suggests that nobody was captured in the operations to take over the fire stations. It is certainly a possibility that people claimed to be there who weren't - I understand that happened in the GPO, but I think a figure of 70 captured is a conservative estimate. I would be interested to know if anybody reading this thread has any information or opinions to offer. Aren't there any academics with a knowledge of the time and the sources who read things like this?
-
Sorry Seanod, I listed names my grandfather dropped in his description of a number of activies in the war of independence. None of those were referring to the customs house.
It was a cheeky stray of topic. And more directed to other grandchildren of E Company. Sorry.
The only reference I can use to the Customs House and my grand dad is his pension. So no other names to offer. But I'll keep my eyes peeled.
-
Sorry Mr Smoketoomuch, I had assumed that this was a general list of names from that period and not specifically related to the Custom House but I was just saying that several of them were there and White was a possible. :)
-
Incidentally, Joseph Murphy of 3 Upper Gardiner Street (at the time of his death in 1960) was also a member of E Company, Second Battalion.
-
Does the Special Branch Files CD that we have discussed help you with names at all. (or looking them up in the Nat Lib if you have access)
-
Apologies to Ms Smoketoomuch. I read it as Mr Smoketoomuch because of the Monty Python sketch. :) Thanks to Corisande for pointing that out to me. Unfortunately I haven't got very far looking at these documents yet. The CD doesn't seem to be of much use as it mostly concerns the big players. There are some very useful documents at the National Archives which are the Witness Statements of people who were involved. Not everyone gave a witness statement but those who did often mention other individuals in passing. There are also pension details but I am not sure where these are kept and I also wonder how comprehensive they are. Finding out about these things is the next step. The most comprehensive books are the Who's Who of the Irish War of Independence and the Civil War and the book I have mentioned before, Dublin in Rebellion: A Directory.
-
I think I have found a reference to Michael Smith:
Irish Independent, July 05, 1940, page 8:
"THE DEFENCE FORCES
More Old IRA Men Join
A military guard of honour saluted members of the 2nd Battalion, Old Dublin Brigade, I.R.A. when 200 of them arrived at Collins Barracks last night to attest for service.
The men marched from Parnell Square headed by a band. They were cheered as they marched along O'Connell Street and the quays. They formed up on the barrack square, and, company by company, went through the formalities, being finally sworn in. They will do part-time training as second-line volunteers.
Those who joined up included: - Messrs F and L Henderson, H. Colley, P O'Daly, C. Goulding, T. Meldon, J McManus, S. Ward, S Brown, M. Smith, P.J. McGrath, J. Reid, T. Clarke, and J. Troy, secretary. "
There is a little more to the article but it doesn't really add much unless you are a relative of Major-General O'Neill or the O'Dalys.
-
How can I thank you enough for that.
Can't believe you pulled that out of your hat.
Here's a picture to tie in. There's a whole other book on that subject I'm sure. I've always wondered, How did Anti-treaty feel doing this. I never heard what it was like for them. Was it a bit awkward or what. Was the other side from the civil war generally above in rank through experience and years service? Touchy subject I know. I've even got a bit of stick over him doing this. Maybe I shouldn't wonder so publicly.
The whole affair seems to be a proud moment judging by the Indo.
Thank you so much for finding that. Your a diamond. ;D
-
You're welcome! I'm glad that I can add him to my Custom House list. That whole area of what people did in the Second World War, how they responded, and how they felt about the pro-Treaty forces is really interesting. As you say, there is plenty of material for a book there. (To be honest, I have seen about five subjects for books since I started on this research). And thanks for sharing the copy of the oath with us - it's amazing to read about an oath in an old newspaper and then see a copy of it a couple of hours later! The wonders of modern technology ... :)
-
By the way, did you notice the date on that document? It seems strange that they took the oath in July and it was signed by Holohan in December. Maybe they had to go through the training before the whole thing was ratified.
Is there anyone out there who knows anything about a Frank Concannon or Francis Concannon who was a member of the Second Battalion and died in 1940? Someone posted a message about him elsewhere on an article about the Custom House but they didn't say whether he was at the Custom House or not. He was certainly involved in the Easter Rising. I would like to hear from the person who posted the message. And finally, anyone see the Who Do You Think You Are programme with Dermot Gavin last night on RTE? I only caught the last ten minutes of it, but they were looking at his grandfather's application for a pension for his W of I service (which was refused) at Cathal Brugha Barracks.
-
Yes seen that last night.
It never really went into why someone like that was refused.
I wonder how many had problems with the pension.
Unless he had no one who could testify he was involved in the activities he had claimed to be involved with.
The fact that they didn't go into an explanation on the programme makes me wonder was there an obvious reason why it was rejected.
My own grandfather contested his grade and it was brought up a grade. I wondered was there a bit of politics still hanging about or was it very strict due to false claims.
-
I read somewhere that the majority of IRA people during the W of I never fired a shot in anger or otherwise, though I think things would have been a lot busier in Dublin area. It didn't sound as if his grandfather played a major role though the attack on the railway yards at Inchicore is quite an important event and is given a section in the recently reprinted book from the Kerryman, Dublin's Fighting Story - which is very good, but doesn't give many of the names of people involved. The article on the Custom House is by Oscar Traynor himself.
-
I was just about to ask had you got a hold of that. I actually had a few pages about the customs house from it copied.
I imagine the service of men also reflected how much time they had put in. Were they always at the ready.
My mother was lead to believe her father had never fired a gun. Maybe it's true. Its hard to tell really. Maybe daughters get one version of events. My uncle told me he was sent to shoot a judge. "Sweat dripping down his gun" affair. Seems to be a bit much. That didn't turn up anywhere I looked. I think the biggest exaggerators can be family rather than the men themselves. It's hard to tell what the real picture is.
-
Most of them were unpaid volunteers and had jobs, so they wouldn't have been free to do very much. In fact, I think the reason for the Custom House attack being at one o'clock was so that a lot of workers in the area could do the attack in their lunch break! Of course, in those days people worked long hours. There were only a few people who were given a salary as full-time soldiers, like the ASU and the Squad.
-
, I think the reason for the Custom House attack being at one o'clock was so that a lot of workers in the area could do the attack in their lunch break! Of course, in those days people worked long hours
and the other side of the story is
"The Custom House was cut off from all communication from the outside world at a time when most officials were out at lunch and only a skeleton staff was on duty"
Is I think more logical to attack the place when there are fewer people there. :)
-
That's also true, Corisande. The thing about the attackers being on their lunchbreak is mentioned in a couple of the printed accounts but the staff of the Custom House being on their lunchbreak would also be an important consideration. Interestingly, the Auxiliaries who arrived at the Custom House in their tenders were also in the Castle sitting down to lunch when a policeman arrived to tell them of the attack. Maybe patrols were less frequent at lunchtime! Stranger things have happened ... Incidentally, does anyone know anything about the people of the Custom House Memorial Committee? It seems very likely that they were in the Custom House but there is no evidence. A couple of the names are Murrin and Tallon. (There were a few Tallons involved in the Easter Rising). Another question I have concerns the Flood brothers. There were at least three of them at the Custom House but I only have two names. Anyone got any information?
-
Interestingly, the Auxiliaries who arrived at the Custom House in their tenders were also in the Castle sitting down to lunch when a policeman arrived to tell them of the attack. Maybe patrols were less frequent at lunchtime
I think those that worked in the Custom House were aggrieved that patrols had been scaled back
Some weeks before the attack leaders of Sein Fein had penetrated the buildings and offices in the Custom House, and took notice that military guards had been withdrawn from the protection of the premises and that only a few police patrolled the front and rear of the building
Place was a sitting duck!
-
That's correct. The head of the LGB had heard "on the grapevine" that an attack on the Custom House was coming and asked for some security. This was stepped up for a while but then the security was removed because Intelligence staff in Dublin Castle decided it wasn't a credible target for attack. Can't give you chapter and verse on that offhand but I can find out which books the information comes from if you're interested. :)
-
That's OK I'll take your word for it.
We seem to agree on this at least :)
-
I'm sure we agree on lots of things! :)
-
Hi there,
Fantastic work, do you have an exact date of death for Captain Wilson? Working on a project at the moment on the resting places of these men.
"Capt John Wilson, 51 Saul Road, Crumlin, who has died, was a former member of C Company 3rd Engineers, I.R.A., and of the Dublin Brigade Active Service Unit.
He was captured during the burning of the Custom House and interned. He was in later years a member of the staff of Bord na Mona.
The funeral took place after Mass in St Bernadette's Church, Clogher Road, Crumlin to Mount Jerome Cemetery.
The chief mourners were Mrs E Wilson (widow); Jack and Jerry (sons); Joan (daughter); Mrs M Quinn and Mrs Smith (sisters); Mrs McKenna (mother-in-law); George McKenna (brother-in-law); Mrs K Murphy (sister-in-law); Messrs J and M Scully (uncles); Miss Scully (aunt); Mrs M Wilson (sister-in-law).
The attendance included Mr J Carroll, T.C.; Col W Stapleton and Mrs Stapleton; Comdt T Donnelly; Comdt V Byrne; Capt W Corri agus Mrs Corri; Capt J Kerrigan; Capt D Hannon and Mrs Hannon; Capt E Breslin, Mr J Murphy and D Morrissey.
A firing party at the graveside consisted of members of the 2nd Batt Eastern Command, under Lieutenant Goggin."
Irish Independent, July 09, 1955. p. 13. Some of those mentioned were definitely at the Custom House - V Byrne, who is mentioned in the film Michael Collins (Vinny Byrne), Stapleton, Donnelly and Ned Breslin were all definitely there.
-
I dont have an exact date if it was a worthwhile project I am sure I could find out.There used to be a Picture of John Wilson in the old family home in his full free state captains uniform, My Aunt & my Mother do not know where its gone !I would love to see that!
-
Thank you for your reply, yes its a worthwhile project to me and many others putting this together, and I would be grateful as I would like to photo the grave. Pity about the photo. I am waiting on a set of photos taken of men in the civil war, the dublin guard, group shots. Your grandfather may be in them with any luck.
Kind Regards
James Langton
-
Hi, I'll see what I can find, though the Obituaries often cite the church but not where the person is buried. My own grand-uncle Edward Dorins was buried in Deansgrange. They wanted to put him in the Republican Plot but my great-grandfather wanted him buried with the family. He was not very political and I think he regarded Edward's death as a waste. It was certainly a terrible loss for him.
-
Theres a story I was told that my great aunt visited my grandmother, she had a news paper with her & asked my grandmother do you know that fella? she replied its johnny wilson,it was an article about the custom house & there was a close up of the captured men. I have seen a picture online of the men lined up but all you can see is there backs.
Also Collins 22 if you find a ref for the grave I have to go there to do something for my Dad in the next few weeks, I would be very interested in seeing the grave myself & I would be glad to take a photo for you.
-
There were a lot of pictures published in the newspapers at that time, especially in the Sunday Independent and the Freeman's Journal and some of the pictures show captive Republicans with their hands above their heads and their faces are clearly visible. Collins 22, there is a book published about the graves of interesting people in Deansgrange and my grand-uncle is in it. He was buried there because the family originally lived in Dun Laoghaire and moved to Fairview, so I presume he is the only Custom House casualty in Deansgrange. There is another book called A Guide Through Glasnevin by M.H. Gill. I haven't seen it but it might help. :)
-
By any chance seanod would you have a copy of those pictures? if I could get my hands on them I could get my Mother or one of my Aunts to pick J.Wilson out of them.
-
I think the best picture comes from a book on the Irish Civil War by Tim Pat Coogan and George Morrison (the title is odd, because at least half of the book is concerned with the war of Independence). However, I am not completely sure where I've seen it. I will check that - unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book myself but my brother in law has and I'll be in his house next week. I'll check it and let you know. If it's the very clear one I'm thinking of, I'll borrow the book and scan that particular picture. :)
-
That would be great I wonder if its the same one that was in the papers years later.
-
There's access to some clips of film from various historical events. Very short, but the the customs house is one.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/history-of-ireland/a-history-of-ireland-feat/revolution-partition-and-/
-
Aplologies for being apparantly absent but I have been following these incredible links with great interest. I've been trying to follow up many of the helpful suggestions ... which is a hellaluja lot of reading ... and following up suggested links, and so I've also taken the liberty of starting a new posting (Marino House, 1916 Commemorative Booklet) which I would like to direct fellow forum member to and which I hope will be of interest, particularly to those following this and other related postings ... (Four Courts, Littles, The Squad etc). Its a large amount of text and I was worried about diverting attention from this topic. So, apologies if I am being presumptious in doing this, but I hope there is some connectivity and relevance to the subject we are exploring.
Denis
-
Welcome back, Denis. I have been a bit busy myself lately but I will certainly check out the new thread. :)
-
Hi Seanod did you have any luck finding the pictures of the custom house?.
-
Not yet, Gary. Sorry! I'll be in my brother-in-law's house tomorrow. :)
-
Hi Gary, Sorry about this. :-[ There is a picture of the Custom House prisoners in the book but it's not the one I'm thinking of and I doubt that anyone would be able to spot an individual from it, especially not a grainy version in an old newspaper. I really can't remember where I have seen the other one with three prisoners in close-up. Leave it with me and I'll try and remember. All the best, Seán.
-
This message is for Gary. This thread seems to have come to the end of its active life, unfortunately, so I don't know if you are still following it. I finally came across the book which contains that picture. It is by Mercier Press and here are the details of the Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/Dublins-Fighting-Story-Told-Stories/dp/1856356434/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257677257&sr=1-1
That's for the US Amazon. The picture shows a few men with their hands up under the girders of the Loop Line Bridge, with an Auxiliary in the foreground. Three of the men have their faces clearly visible, and the other two are in shadow. Obviously I can't guarantee that any of them is Jack Wilson! Strangely, the Amazon site suggests that the book isn't available yet, which is strange because it's been available in the Dublin shops since I bought it in September.
In a last-ditch attempt to get the thread started again, does anyone have any information on two Gaffneys who died in the early twenties? One of them, John Gaffney, was executed by firing squad in 1922 in the crackdown by the Free State authorities for possession of a gun. The other, Jeremiah Gaffney (I think his official name might have been George) was hanged in 1924 for a murder committed somewhere in Munster but I don't know if he was a Republican infiltrator in the Free State Army, or a Free Stater who exceeded his mandate or if the murder was non-political. I don't know whether there was any connection between John and George/Jeremiah either. Any Gaffneys out there?
-
You may have already tried, but the Dail Debates of the time touch on many a killing.
It's a bit of a nightmare to go through though. The search doesn't pull in much.
If you have an idea of the time of year it was, it mightn't be so bad.
Here's the link
http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/en.toc.dail.html
-
I forgot to say there that George/Jeremiah Gaffney was at the Custom House.
-
Thanks for that link! I'll try it and see what I can turn up. :)
-
Thanks for that Sean, I will try & get my hands on the book, I was looking at something on youtube this morning & it showed those pictures! all I need is a scan & my Mother & Aunts may be able to pick Johnny out of it. I also emailed J O`Connell the Autor of the rebellion book,to ask him where he got his refs to Johnny & he said he was mentioned in Joe Leonards statements. I am also trying to get in touch with someone who may have the newspaper article that shows that picture & may also have a picture of Johnny in Freestate uniform.
Oh the thing on youtube was Irelands most hated hero Dev! it had a few moments on the Custom House Burning.
-
Thanks for that, Gary. I'll check out the youtube thing. As for the Joe Leonard witness statement, I spent a day in the archives looking up some of the witness statements but I didn't get to that one. In a few weeks time, all being well, I will go to Dublin and spend another day there, and I'll certainly look at that one. By the way, did you try contacting the Irish Photographic Archive in Temple Bar? They may have some idea where the picture came from. :)
-
I checked the Youtube thing and it's very interesting but the pictures given there aren't the same as the one that's in that book. The bias in the documentary is very strongly against De Valera and for Collins. Personally I don't have a major bias towards either of them but I think the myth that Collins was a Cassandra who warned of the folly of the Custom House attack while Dev pressed for it is a bit simplistic. There's no real evidence that Collins tried to oppose it - he was involved in the planning - and according to some of the witness statements, his major contribution was to oppose outlying pickets and barricades, which would have given the Dublin Brigade the chance to escape, on the grounds that this was "too much like a general insurrection". In other words, De Valera certainly pushed for a grand gesture, but the military failure of that grand gesture was probably down to Collins.
-
Hi Sean I have not contacted them yet about the photo, I may look into it in the next weeks.I have to pick up that book too.
I am glad you enjoyed the youtube thing. The whole Custom House burning is such a strange action for the time, I could not see Collins being in favour of it, but he would have helped plan it thru loyalty to Dev.
-
Certainly a big operation like that wasn't Collins' style at all. But I don't think there's any real evidence that he opposed it. The scene from the film where Collins and Dev have a major argument because Dev is ordering the burning of the Custom House is pure fantasy. Good luck with finding that photograph! :)
-
A bit like Vinnie Byrne being the leader of the Squad !
-
Seanod.
Came across another name. A sure one.
Daniel Mc Aleese. My partner spotted an abstract of a withness statement.
He's not on my list of withness statements of Dubliners so he must have been living elsewhere. The census seems to have all Mc Aleeses in the 6 counties.
You's are so right about the film. I don't mind the accuracies so much. That happens with big hollywood films. But the faith people put in the film being gospel.
And it comes up so often. I suppose maybe there was a ton of people found it good and thought they'd read a book or two about it all.
But there's a lot of lazy thinking out there too.
My daughters teacher depended on the film to teach the class about it all.
Nothing else, just the film.
Anyhow hope Daniel is a new addition to the list of names.
-
Harry Boland dying in the river lol thats another one they got wrong !
-
Personally I thought the film wasn't bad in many ways but there were a lot of inaccuracies. The death of Harry Boland, as you say, and the car bomb! I looked up the details of the planning of the Custom House last night, and it seems that at the initial meeting, Dev asked for a major gesture. He proposed either Beggar's Bush or the Custom House, and the details were left to Oscar Traynor to investigate. The plans were then worked out by a kind of subcommittee in which Collins was involved but De Valera wasn't present (though Mulcahy was). One thing I have wondered about is the business of the Local Government Board chairman hearing about the attack in advance. The security was very tight and the people who carried out the attack didn't know what the target was until the day of the burning, apart from a handful of people. Is it possible that someone leaked the details to delay or prevent Dev's gesture ...? :) No evidence, but it's a thought.
Thanks for the name of Daniel McAleese. I've just looked him up on Google and he was definitely there on the day. He was one of the tax office employees, apparently, so I'll add him to the non-military list. :)
-
I agree I liked the film, just picking faults I surpose.Beggars Bush would have been a suicide mission,with Rathmines barracks just up the road.Saying that if they had of captured Beggars Bush they would have got some amount of guns & ammunition,but how would they have got out ? they would have been surrounded in no time.
-
Seanod,
Really sorry but I made a mistake.
Daniel McAleese is on my Dublin Witness statement list.
Don't know how I missed it but it's there alright. Witness statement No. 1411.
::)
-
That's great, Ms Smoketoomuch. I hope to get to the National Archives in a few weeks time and I'll check it out then. :)
-
Check this before planning your visit to the NAI.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,415148.0.html
Dara.
-
Thanks a million for that, Dara! It's a long way to go for a wasted journey. :)
-
As promised, here is the information on John Wilson:
"Capt John Wilson, 51 Saul Road, Crumlin, who has died, was a former member of C Company 3rd Engineers, I.R.A., and of the Dublin Brigade Active Service Unit.
He was captured during the burning of the Custom House and interned. He was in later years a member of the staff of Bord na Mona.
The funeral took place after Mass in St Bernadette's Church, Clogher Road, Crumlin to Mount Jerome Cemetery.
The chief mourners were Mrs E Wilson (widow); Jack and Jerry (sons); Joan (daughter); Mrs M Quinn and Mrs Smith (sisters); Mrs McKenna (mother-in-law); George McKenna (brother-in-law); Mrs K Murphy (sister-in-law); Messrs J and M Scully (uncles); Miss Scully (aunt); Mrs M Wilson (sister-in-law).
The attendance included Mr J Carroll, T.C.; Col W Stapleton and Mrs Stapleton; Comdt T Donnelly; Comdt V Byrne; Capt W Corri agus Mrs Corri; Capt J Kerrigan; Capt D Hannon and Mrs Hannon; Capt E Breslin, Mr J Murphy and D Morrissey.
A firing party at the graveside consisted of members of the 2nd Batt Eastern Command, under Lieutenant Goggin."
Irish Independent, July 09, 1955. p. 13. Some of those mentioned were definitely at the Custom House - V Byrne, who is mentioned in the film Michael Collins (Vinny Byrne), Stapleton, Donnelly and Ned Breslin were all definitely there.
I've been researching my great grandfathers military history these past few months and I managed to get in to Cathal Brugha Barracks in Rathmines to look at his file.
Cmdt Thomas Donnelly was part of the F Company 2nd Battalion Dublin Brigade which was the first Battalion to go into the Customs House. The 2nd Battalion was charged with the capture and destruction of the building, while the 1st Battalion was to protect the building grom suprise attack and the 5th Battalion was charged with the task of cutting all communications from the Custom House. In the files he gives a short account of what he did and named his captain J. Ward as being there too.
I was very interested to see that it looks like he was at the funeral of John Wilson in 1955. Thomas Donnelly died on Nov 19 1966 from Clonmacnoise Road, Crumlin. not far from where the John Wilson was.
Just wondering how you knew that Thomas Donnelly was definitely at the custom house or how you managed to get that information.
-
Hi Gavdonnelly, Thanks very much for your post. I have a box file full of paper notes and a more orderly set of electronic files. Looking at the electronic folder for IRA men at the Custom House, I do have files for Vinny Byrne, Stapleton and Ned Breslin but none for Thomas Donnelly. I don't know if I did have information on a Donnelly and haven't put it in the files yet or if I was thinking of a man called Donnegan, who does have a file. (I am quite forgetful and there is a lot of information but something in the back of my mind is telling me that a Donnelly is mentioned specifically in one of the published sources). Anyway, sorry about that! I will check out the stuff in the box file and see what I can find. I will also add your grandfather's name to the list. I already had a Sean Ward in the files, who was head of the Custom House Memorial Committee, and I presume he was originally John Ward. Any chance of getting a transcript of the account of your grandfather's role in the battle and a brief description of what else he was involved in? :)
-
Crumlin seems to have been the place to be with John Wilson in Saul Road & Thomas Donnelly in Clonmacnoise Road & Vinnie Byrne only across from them in Errigal RD Driminagh!
-
Not being a Dub, none of the place-names means much to me. I'll have to get a map out and study it carefully!
Gavdonnelly, I have looked through the box file but all I could find was the reference to T. Donnelly at the funeral of John Wilson and a mention of him as one of the guests at a Custom House Memorial ceremony in 1962 (May 27th, Irish Independent).
"The Parade which was led by the St. James's Brass and Reed Band was commanded by Mr V. Byrne, assisted by Mr. G. Greene, Chief Stewards were Messers P. Crean, T. Clarke, T. Donnelly, P. Mahon, and J. King. The attendance also included: Lieut-Gen. S McKeown, Chief of Staff; Major General S. Collins Powell, Adjutant General; Mr O Traynor, General R. Mulcahy and Senator M. Hayes."
Any or all of these men could have been present at the Custom House, but the only ones on my files so far are T. Donnelly (as of today), V. Byrne and O Traynor. I also note that T. Donnelly was a mourner at a number of Dublin Brigade funerals down the years, such as the funeral of R. O'Donohue in January 1938.
I'll check out some of the more obscure published sources again, anyway, and let you know the result. :)
-
As a matter of interest Sean when did Vinnie Byrne leave the Army was it 1924 when the rest where made resign there comissions ?
-
I'm not sure about that one, Gary. I know the business you mean, though I can't remember what it was called in the history books. Was it the Curragh Crisis or was that another name for the revolt of British Army officers against Home Rule in 1913? A lot of the officers refused to be demobbed and were court-martialled for insubordination. I don't know if Vinnie Byrne was one of the people concerned. If I find anything to resolve that question I'll post it. :)
-
This document in the link seems to contain a list of all the demobilised officers but you have to pay a tenner for it!
http://books.national-army-museum.ac.uk/staff-duties-appointments-discharges-memo-no-13-pr-25352.html
:)
-
The files that I got access to just gave a list of Thomas Donnelly's general activities during the war of independence and he only briefly mentioned taking part in the burning of the custom house. There is no actual detailed description of exactly what he did or all the people he was with.
On the issue of The Crisis as it became known. Cmdt Thomas Donnelly did resign in 1924 and I laughed when I seen his file because he scribbled out the reason the army put down for leaving 'Demobilisation' and wrote resigned above it!
I photographed all the documents I seen and I've recently got hold of another file relating to his pension from the Department of Defence in Galway. This was a great file because to get his pension he had to list his activities and give references and names of some people he fought beside. So here they are
Burning of Raheny Barracks
Burning of Dollymount Coastguard Station
Ambushes in North Strand, Whitehall and Ballybough Road
Attack on L.N.W.P. hotel
Raids for arms at Killester and Artane
Attack at Town Hall, Clontarf(I did find some extra info on this and it seem the volunteers threw grenades at the Auxiliary men and exchanged fire. one civilian died)
Burning of the Custom House
The one job he did give details on was when he was unofficially sent by his O/C Frank Henderson to london with Thomas Nolan to procure revolvers. This mission took place during the truce and was sanctioned in case the treaty negotiations broke down. He was helped by his wife's cousin Thomas Deegan to get the 15 revolvers they stole through customs in Holyhead. Thomas Deegan and Thomas Donnelly both worked on the RMS Leinster and Mr Deegan obviously new the people to get them safely back to Dublin. Thomas Donnelly also mentioned in his letter to the pension board that he met Sam Maguire in London and that he could verify the story.
I have all the names he mentioned that he worked with in the F Company 2 Battalion during the war of independence if you like. I can't confirm if they were at the custom house but it's a possibility.
on a side issue, Thomas Deegan and Thomas Donnelly were on the RMS leinster when it was torpedoed by the germans in 1918 killing five hundred people and I found a book online 'Torpedoed - The RMS leinster disaster' which has an interview with Thomas Deegan on his experience on the boat when the disaster happened.
-
The names that he gave in the file that were part of the F Coy 2nd Battalion are as follows.
O/C Frank Henderson and Oscar Traynor
Col Cmdt T. Kilcoyne
Cmdt Charles McCabe
Colonel Charlie Dalton
Capt J. Ward
Capt Thomas Nolan
Lt P. Fleming
O/C of Irregulars Patrick Sweeney
Not sure if J. Ward is Sean Ward because I found two references in his file, one from each so it looks like the might be different people.
There is one source of information that I am going to try to get my hands on and that is a book written in 1929 by Charlie Dalton 'With the Dublin Brigade 1917-1921. This guy was mentioned quite a bit in my great grandfathers files and it seem he was quite close to the Donnelly family at that time. It's a rare book and hopefully I will get my hands on it because it should give me a very good idea of what life was like during the war of independence with the f company 2nd Battalion. It might also be of interest to you because he might give a detailed description of the Custom house and the men that were there.
He became a very important man during the civil war because I think he became one of the top men on the republican side during the civil war.
-
'The Crisis' in 1924 came about because when the Free State government tried to demobolise some of the men a huge argument broke out over the men that were to go.
Following the signing of the treaty in 1922 some of the RIC men that fought against the volunteers went straight into the new Free State Army and worked alongside the volunteers that stayed loyal to Michael Collins. The problem in 1924 was that some of the men the Free State goverment wanted to demobolise were originally volunteers during the war of independence and some of the RIC men were to be kept on so to speak. This caused enormous trouble in the army and very nearly resulted in another war. The result of the crisis was that many volunteers from the war of independence resigned their post in the Free State Army in protest of how the demobilisation was handled.
I know my great grandfathers wife was very active for the Cumman na mban during the war of independence and I found out that when she died in 1937, the goverment wanted to give her an army funeral but Thomas Donnelly refused. So obviously the crisis left a bitter taste in his mouth and must have done for a lot of the volunteers that stayed loyal to Michael Collins following the sigining of the Treaty.
-
All this is fascinating. Thanks very much for your input, Gavdonnelly. :) Some of the names you gave were definitely there at the Custom House - Tom Kilcoyne was there, and so was Patrick Fleming. I found some more information about Seán Ward. He is listed as John Ward in the newspaper accounts of casualties just after the burning. It is almost certainly the same man because he is given as a merchant tailor, and later on he was described as a master tailor. He had a brother called Nicholas Ward who was also in F Company but I don't know if he was at the CH.
I can't remember if I've seen the Dalton book or not. Have you got the book "Dublin's Fighting Story?" It goes into a lot of the major events and actions. Keep your eye on this strand, because if I come across any information in the witness statements relating to Tom Donnelly I'll post it here.
-
Just on the Crisis, there was another side to this, My Granfather William Deering was a British Soldier, he joined the Freestate Army straight after leaving the British Army (so no IRA connection as I was told) he had a very early early number V0005**. My father only found this out yesterday thanks to the Army.Now he left the Army in 1933 & the family told me he hated Dev with a passion.So what I am thinking is, that the lads that did stay got out when Dev came to power as they could not stomach serving with the other side.There is also a story I heard ( that my Granfather told)that they,the Freestate soldiers used to leave Devs cell door open hoping he would try & escape to they had a reason to shot him.
-
Fascinating! I wonder if anyone has done a study of quite how much these changes of power impacted on the ordinary soldiers. Did they leave in droves or was the process more of a blending of the old with the new? And were disaffected ex-members of the armed forces a major factor in the growth of the Blueshirt movement around that time, as they were in the growth of fascist movements in other countries? I'll have to do some background reading ...
-
I was asking my cousin the same question on Monday. Again I wonder if there is a list of Blueshirts ?My Granfather started off in the British Army from 1918 to 1922,then he was in the Freestate Army from 1922 to 1933.He also was a strong fine gael supporter till his death,it makes the right background for a Blueshirt!
-
Gary has sent me a very interesting link to another discussion where someone mentioned that their grandfather was at the Custom House and in the Second Battalion and that he was captured and taken to Kilmainham after. His name was William Donegan. I had his name already but all I had was this:
On May 25th. 1952, the annual re-union and dinner of the men who fought at the CH was held in the Four Provinces House. 50 veterans attended. Oscar Traynor, then Minister for Defence, attended the dinner and proposed the toast, “Éire”. Mr. W Donegan presided. Members of the committee present were P. Farrell; J. Foley, C. Daly, C. Ryan and P. Lawson.
So I can now add that he was there, that he belonged to the Second Batt. and that he was captured. All very useful. Thanks again Gary. :) Any chance any of his family are following this?
-
No Problem Sean, Now I want to pick your brain again,Have you any idea what the age limit was in the Freestate army in 1922 ? I was looking for that information when I came across that forum.
-
Hello guys,
This is a great forum, I only came across it by accident as a link from something else.
As soon as I started to browse I found some great family connections.
I hadn't actually read this thread until yesterday and its very interesting. It would seem, that after the bitter feelings and divisions of the civil war, those, particularly on the republican side must have had very little to celebrate. Considering the momentous event that had just come about. Independence after about 700 years and yet it seems that the vast number of the volunteers just quietly disappeared into anonymity. But for a small few who wrote their stories, eg. (Dan Breen and Tom Barry) so much has been left untold.
My own Grandfather was a volunteer and spent over a year in an internment camp. On release after the treaty, but as the civil war was looming, He was offered a commission in the new free state army, which he declined as he not prepared to fight against his own.
I would hope that there are many stories, or bits of stories, out there to be told. Could this forum be the vehicle to bring these stories together and also link the people who were actually involved ?
DC
-
Hello & Welcome DC, I think your Granfather was what they called neutral IRA & nothing wrong with that ! maybe it was the best side to be on, my own family on both sides where Freestate.
-
I think there is a huge hole in the story because we haven't listened to those that couldn't take a side in the civil war.
It makes prefect sense to me. I can't look at it and honestly say I feel comfortable on any side. But I'm probably a product of my time. My childhood filled with death up the north. I remember it being completely hopeless and futile.
My grandfather had gone anti treat but at the end of his life in the early 60s he questioned it more.
He even had a row with Dev.
And he didn't see the troubles.
But it is weird for me really to find that the neutral IRA were not more outspoken.
Makes me think we can never look back and know for sure how and what motivated peoples feelings.
I hope the likes of DC51 grandfather's views are explored more.
-
Hi, In reply to Gary first, I imagine the official age was somewhere around 18, but I haven't come across any recruiting adverts which might give that information. I'll keep looking. I agree entirely with the other comments, and the saddest thing about looking at the history of those years is the way that people who fought and died against a common enemy ended up brutally murdering each other. People who were active at the Custom House fought for both sides in the Civil War, and of course some of them like Ned Breslin were involved in the horrific incidents in Munster like Ballyseedy Cross. Still others left Ireland around that time and never came back. As Ms Smoketoomuch says, it is easy to look back on those times and criticise the insanity of it. Like what happened in the north, there was just a momentum and an inevitability about the way things went and probably nobody could have stopped the war. We never really produced any Gandhis in this country ...
-
I have to say I agree Sean, sorry the question I was asking I may have put it wrong, I am trying to work out the oldest recuits that the Freestate army would have taken, There has to be recruiting posters somewhere online! or even newspaper adverts ?
-
Hello Guys,
Has anyone any thoughts on my suggestion of using this forum to try to link together people and events during that time? Perhaps a dedicated threat?
I've a number of events I'd consider throwing into the ring and names of people involved, some I'm related to, others not.
In fact 2 names I have are of informers! (supposedly) one may have even been executed!
Trouble is, could I be starting the civil war all over again??
It would also help to authenticate some of these stories and hopefully others will follow with their stories.?
DC
-
DC work away start another thread for the story's, One thing about here is its non political,Well so far it has been, theres a chap posts here & his Granfather lead an Attack on the Rebels in 1916. People here who are related to Pro & Anti treaty. No one seems to care all we are interested in, is history & facts.What ever you do, don't post comments on youtube ! the war is still being fought over there in fact every war !
-
Gary, your absolutely right. The sense i get from these threads is that we should celebrate our history no matter what side you come from. I have to admit I've no idea what side I would've taken in the run up to the civil war and I've no doubt the volunteers on both sides thought long and hard about their decision.
I've always had a love for Irish History and it's only recently that I was given my great grandfathers medal for active duty during the war of independence that i hope to pass it on to my son. He went on to become a Free Stater but from what I gather from his military files, the Crisis in 1924 left a bad taste in the mouth and maybe left him with a sense of regret that he might have chosen the wrong side.
-
Hi DC and everyone else! As other people have said, this is maybe not a non-political thread but it is certainly a thread where all shades of opinion are welcome. I have learned a lot from this thread and I hope it will continue. While I don't have the right to stop people from using the thread any way they want, (and while all of us stray from the point sometimes) the Custom House is at the heart of this particular thread and if you want to discuss other issues like the Civil War or informers in depth it would probably be best to start up threads on those subjects, but don't forget to post a notice about it here so that we can follow it and take part, as all of us have a general interest in that period as well as a specific interest in the Custom House. :)
-
Forgot to say that I totally agree with you about the potential for sites like this to provide really valuable information about our history and the attitudes of the people involved in it.
Anyone know how to get the Santa hats off the emoticons? It's not even December yet ...
To paraphrase Dickens, I keep Christmas in my heart all year round. That's why I'm always drunk, pigged out and falling asleep in front of the TV ... :o
-
Today's the 1st Sunday of Advent so that's why the Santa smilies have appeared.
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,422285.msg2873813.html#msg2873813
-
Bah, humbug!
-
Now, now, let's stay on topic please ;)
-
Ho, ho, ho, then. :) Anyway, I have just found out the name of another of the Auxiliaries who was injured at the Custom House. His name was A. Edward Oliver. Don't know where he came from but he sustained eye injuries and was given £450 of compensation in January 1922.
-
Gary, your absolutely right. The sense i get from these threads is that we should celebrate our history no matter what side you come from. I have to admit I've no idea what side I would've taken in the run up to the civil war and I've no doubt the volunteers on both sides thought long and hard about their decision.
I've always had a love for Irish History and it's only recently that I was given my great grandfathers medal for active duty during the war of independence that i hope to pass it on to my son. He went on to become a Free Stater but from what I gather from his military files, the Crisis in 1924 left a bad taste in the mouth and maybe left him with a sense of regret that he might have chosen the wrong side.
As history tells us most people where shafted that took part in that War on both side.Thearmy won the War for the goverment & found themselfs on the dole in 1924. I have noticed that irregulars seemed to get on better in the Emergency (liam Deasy & Tom Barry spring to mind) I think after 1924 a lot of the Free State officers would never rejoin again, Saying that Paddy Daly did & was made a Captain in the labour Corps !
-
I have been looking on Wiki and different places for the career of Paddy Daly. It seems that there was a very ugly incident in Kenmare involving sexual assault so it looks like they may have had their own reasons for shunning him.
-
God !
I went looking and found this
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2002/08/22/story515953669.asp
It obviously comes from a set view point, but it names others involved.
-
Thanks for that Mrs.Smokestoomuch, its very pro Dev, but it does shine some light on the Assault Daly was involed in (something I always wondered about). The Civil War was a nasty time but I still think that most of the Officers of the Freestate where treated very badly. My Great Uncle J Wilson after he left the Army had a hard time finding work, not great reward for years spent risking his life, while Ex British Officers kept there commissions. As for Dev & Collins brothers civil service job the only thing I can think of was guilt on Devs part.
Seanod just seen your post yeah Dalys name was not a good one in the army after ballysheddy & the assault I am surprised he was taken back at all.
-
Hello Seanod
The other, Jeremiah Gaffney (I think his official name might have been George) was hanged in 1924 for a murder committed somewhere in Munster but I don't know if he was a Republican infiltrator in the Free State Army, or a Free Stater who exceeded his mandate or if the murder was non-political. I don't know whether there was any connection between John and George/Jeremiah either. Any Gaffneys out there?
Would this be the Jeremiah Gaffney you seek information for:
Philip Monahan: a man apart: the life and times of Ireland's first local authority manager - see page 52
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07ld/
Linda
-
Hello Corsisande et al.
I am not sure if you are aware of Google Books. Many books have previews and some full text.
This one has a preview with snipit view and may be of particular interest to you as your grandfather worked there:
Around and about the Customs House by Jane Meredith (1997)
Includes illustrations. Some subjects are Custom House (Dublin Ireland); Architecture
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07lg/
Seanod this may interest you:
Where's where in Dublin: a directory of historic locations, 1913-1923 : ...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07lf/
page 6: 55 Amiens Street ...
page 55: ... On 21st May 1921 a meeting was held here to finalize the plans to burn the Custom House. In attendance were Michael Collins, Sean Dowling, Richard Mulcahy, Ginger O'Connell and Oscar Traynor.
Linda
-
Thanks Ms Smoketoomuch. I think the E Flood is one of the Flood brothers, four of whom were in the Custom House but I've never heard of Clarke. I found a brief debate about the incident from the Dáil debates which contains no reference to a sexual assault but then given the sensitivities of the times it probably wouldn't have been mentioned. I'll try and find the link and post it. :)
-
Hi Linda, Yes that's the Gaffney. Thanks for the link. Unfortunately it doesn't give much more information about the context and the reasons for the murder but I have since found a couple of newspaper articles. It seems to have arisen from an incident where the man who was murdered by Gaffney came into the barracks and somehow (perhaps during a robbery or a dispute) a gun went off and one of Gaffney's friends was killed. He was informed by a nurse about the identity of the killer and went to get him. You get the overwhelming impression that these people were like Joe Pesci in Goodfellows -completely unpredictable and liable to snap at any moment. They were probably brutalised by their war experiences, but then probably any armed forces will attract a large number of people who are brutal by nature anyway. Gaffney was captured in Dublin, tried in Kerry and then sent back to Dublin for execution.
-
Anyone know how you delete a message? Somehow I've ended up with a number of versions of this email. I was trying to put the quote in a box. I really hate computers!
-
Seanod this may interest you:
Where's where in Dublin: a directory of historic locations, 1913-1923 : ...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07lf/
page 6: 55 Amiens Street ...
page 55: ... On 21st May 1921 a meeting was held here to finalize the plans to burn the Custom House. In attendance were Michael Collins, Sean Dowling, Richard Mulcahy, Ginger O'Connell and Oscar Traynor.
Hi Linda, Thanks for that. I thought this was another version of the book I've mentioned before, Dublin in Rebellion, but it doesn't give the same information. The Dublin in Rebellion book says that 55 Amiens street was the home of Seán Doyle, who was killed at the CH, but there is no mention of the meeting. I'll have to get that book. :)
-
Seanod this may interest you:
Where's where in Dublin: a directory of historic locations, 1913-1923 : ...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07lf/
page 6: 55 Amiens Street ...
page 55: ... On 21st May 1921 a meeting was held here to finalize the plans to burn the Custom House. In attendance were Michael Collins, Sean Dowling, Richard Mulcahy, Ginger O'Connell and Oscar Traynor.
Hi Linda, Thanks for that. I thought this was another version of the book I've mentioned before, Dublin in Rebellion, but it doesn't give the same information. The Dublin in Rebellion book says that 55 Amiens street was the home of Seán Doyle, who was killed at the CH, but there is no mention of the meeting. I'll have to get that book. :)
-
Hi, Just came across this site today while surfing. Sean Doyle was my Great Grandfather. I was interested to see if he was mentioned anywhere in the thread. I was very suprised to learn that the planning meeting to attack the CH was held in his house - never heard this before. His wife (my Great Grandmother) lived well into her eighties so I'm lucky enough to have known her. Sean was only 20 when he died - his older brother Patrick was one of the "forgotten ten" that was hanged six weeks later and buried in Mountjoy. When I was a kid, LaLa as we called her, would every so often take down her box of personal effects and let us kids see the medals & tricolour that were awarded to Sean posthumously. She also had letters written by Patrick while in prison awaiting execution. Subsequently, my uncle (her Grandson) passed all the material to the State. I was quite young when she used to tell us about Sean's death so it's difficult to remember everything or indeed she may have censored some of it, however one aspect of it has always stuck in my mind. Sean was shot in the back while trying to escape from the CH. He was not killed instantly but managed (or was helped) to a hospital (don't know which one). Apparently, the army/police went around the hospitals after the raid looking for wounded IRA men and while Sean was kept hidden wherever he was for maybe a day or so, he was eventually caught and taken away - whether he would have lived had he been treated or whether his death was hastened by those that arrested him, I don't know. Even after 60 years, relating the story always made Lala cry - she must have had a very difficult life bringing up her kids on her own at such a young age (of course it's only in later years that I could appreciate this). She also had the bullet that killed Sean, which had some of his bone embedded in it.
-
I love when this happens on rootschat.
Welcome to rootschat Pcdl.
-
I've got the impression that getting medical attention was problematic at the time.
One example I can think of (though not the Customs House) was Dan Breen. He had to stay at a house on Botanic Ave. Glasnevin a number of days before they could get him admitted to the Mater Hospital without fear of arrest. And at that it put other volunteers at risk to get him there.
-
Welcome to the thread, Pcdl. It's great to hear from you! My understanding was that Seán Doyle died in the hospital (Jervis Street, I think) on the 30th, but I may well have got that wrong. I'll have to look up my notes. He must have been lucid on the night of the attack, because apparently he kept asking if the lads were beaten. When he heard the sound of shots and explosions outside (the Dublin Brigade decided to go into action that night to hide the seriousness of their losses) he said "Thank God! The fight goes on!" I'll see what else I can dig up, but if it's true that he died after being taken out of the hospital, that really changes things! There is some suspicion that Patrick O'Reilly was shot after capture as well. As Ms Smoketoomuch says, I love it when things like this happen. Exchanges of information like this can really uncover sources of new information, so stay tuned! :)
-
Ms. Smokestoomuch/Seanod - thanks for your welcome. This is really interesting stuff. As I mentioned, I'm recalling childhood memory so I may well be wrong about the exact circumstances of Seans death and I'd hate to distort or contaminate historical fact. I'll check with the family and see if anyone can provide a more accurate account of what happened and if there's any other interesting/relevant information. Sometimes it's the seemingly insignificant little pieces of information that makes the stories of these events so compelling and I suppose these are the things that are often forgotten.
-
Hello Pcdl
The search I had done earlier was using term customs house.
Where's where in Dublin: a directory of historic locations, 1913-1923 : ...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07lf/
page 6: 55 Amiens Street ...
page 55: ... On 21st May 1921 a meeting was held here to finalize the plans to burn the Custom House. In attendance were Michael Collins, Sean Dowling, Richard Mulcahy, Ginger O'Connell and Oscar Traynor.
Further for: 55 Amiens Street: Tom Clarke's first shop; in 1910 the family moved to 77 Amiens Street. This was also the home of Sean Doyle, killed in the Custom House fire.
The book is a snippet view. It would be best to view the book. I doubt the meeting was held at 55 Amiens, saying this as the page 55 snippet entry has under it the entry for Gardiner Street. If the book is in order of streets alphabetically, it is highly unlikely to be Amiens. With the snippet view, I was not able to see the street address for this entry, other than knowing it included term customs house.
Linda
-
Hi Pcdl, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I have looked into the circumstances of your great-grandfather's death, and it seems that in this case the family tradition may be inaccurate. These things can sometimes be like Chinese whispers. As far as I can ascertain from newspaper and published reports, Doyle (he was known as John in many reports) was taken to the Mater Hospital (not Jervis Street) where he was admitted and operated on for a wound in his chest. The story about his saying "Thank God, Sister, the fight goes on" comes from a book called Dublin's Fighting Story. Should be available on Amazon. I have a vague recollection of reading in a printed account that the hospital was searched and that the staff managed to persuade the Auxiliaries that Doyle was suffering from an infectious disease, so that they didn't search him or find out about the gunshot wounds. I'll see if I can find out where that comes from. Anyway, a memorial notice from his family in 1922 states that he died on the 30th of May and the first report of his death was early in June. There was a report of the inquest in the Freemans Journal on the 3rd which shows that his wife didn't know where he was (or at least that's what she told the inquest) until the Sunday, when she found out he was in the Mater and visited, but he was rambling and feverish from pneumonia. He died on the Monday (Monday forenoon, it says, whatever that means) which accords with the memorial notice. The doctors then reported his death at Mountjoy Police Station that evening and the doctor got a real grilling from the judge about why he didn't report it to Dublin Castle as he was required to do. The medical staff showed incredible bravery in facing up to the authorities. I'll see what else I can find. Do you know anything about the Woods family and the Spanish Civil War, or is that a different branch of your family? :)
-
Hi PCDL, I should have welcomed you before now. Seanod I read that account too, I think it was in Dublin`s fighting story (about John Doyle`s Gunshot wounds being covered up in the hospital).Also I have, after several months alot of phone calls & God knows how many texts got in touch with John Wilsons family, I cant say how happy I am because my family had lost touch for many years,Hopefully I might be able to find out more information to add to this thread.
-
Hi, I don't think that particular detail is in Dublin's Fighting Story, Gary - I was reading it last night and I didn't notice it (though I was only searching for that line about the fight going on). I'll see if I can track it down but I'm nearly certain it's a published book. Look forward to hearing anything you find out about John Wilson's experiences. Keep it coming! :)
-
Linda/Gary/Seanod, thanks for the updates. Haven't had a chance to discuss with the family yet but will let you know when I have anything. Sean is always refered to as 'John' in the family but all his military comrades call him Sean. I picked up a book in town yesterday called "The Squad" by T. Ryle Dwyer (as Sean was one of the so called Twelve Apostles) - I also stopped by the Custom House to check the memorial and he's Sean on that too. There's an account in the book by Jimmy Slattery (another apostle) about himself and Sean making a run for it when they were both hit by machine gun fire (Sean didn't fancy his chances if they got arrested since Patrick his brother had been executed some weeks previously). They both ended up in the Mater. Sean had been hit in the lung. According to Jimmys account a British military and medical party came into the hospital that night and checked their charts but they had been warned by the nun's and pretended to be asleep. Jimmy says Sean died the next morning? The Woods name doesn't ring any bells but I'll check (is it Flan Tommy Woods, Patrick Doyles nephew?.......saw a reference to him being killed in Cordoba).
-
Hi PCDL, I made a mistake in my post,it was the Squad Book, as I checked Dublins fighting story.
-
Yes, I found the Squad book today too. That's where I found the account of the Hospital being searched. I was wrong in detail - there was nothing about an infectious disease, just that they had given them false charts and they were told to keep still. I wonder if Slattery and Doyle were even in the same ward, or if Slattery stayed long in the Mater. He may have been gone by the time Doyle died; there's really no way of knowing, so his comment about Doyle dying the day after needn't be taken as gospel. By the way, Doyle was registered under the name Browne - that detail came out in the inquest. I'll see if I can find anything else. As for the Fiann Tommy Woods, that's the one. He was a nephew of the Doyle brothers. :)
-
You’ve possibly searched this already
“The NAI holds a small quantity of records relating to the Mater Misercordiae Hospital, Dublin (DUB 54) which includes a complete series of operations registers (1887–1949) and a medical register for the period 1897–1902.”
From: http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/Medical_sources/Hospital_records.pdf
I presume bullet wounds would be recorded under the list of operations.
Dara.
-
Hi Dara, That's great. I'll add it to the list of documents to check out but I'm sure a lot of these operations were carried out on the quiet and never registered. It will be interesting to see if there is any record of the treatment for Mr Brown in May 1921! All the best and thanks again. :)
-
Hello,
I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about a Frank Brennan who was in Kilmainham, apparently as a result of the Customs House fire. In some of the Kilmainham autograph books there are a couple of little verses signed by Frank Brennan:
The reason we're here, is on the Customs House fire
When we were pinched together
We are doing our time in Cell twenty-nine
"Hard Luck" its such lovely weather
Frank Brennan & Frank Carberry
(6 July 1921)
On another autograph Frank Brennan and Frank Carberry signed it "the two Franks" and "the two inseparables". There is another attributed to Frank Brennan:
Now when you leave here
I trust you will think
Of the friends in Kilmainham you've made
And when in a "pub" the toast you should drink
Is, Good Health to the boys of the "Ould Fire Brigade"
Kilmainham sent me a photo of a group of prisoners that had been donated by Frank Carberry's son, and it had Frank Carberry marked, and sitting next to Frank Carberry is a man who is the spitting image of our Frank Brennan!!
So is there a list of persons arrested over the Customs House fire and is there a Frank Brennan on it? Frank was from the North Road, Finglas.
Would anyone know more about Frank Carberry either?
-
Hi, Welcome to the thread! I've never heard of either of them. As you may know from the above (it's sometimes hard to take in all the information) there is a list of some ninety names which should have them on it if they were captured in connection with the Custom House. I'll be looking at that list, hopefully, some time in February and then I'll let you know if there is anything about them. Sounds like they are both definites, which is great. Where is this book, in the Archives or the National Library? :)
-
The autograph books are actually held at Kilmainham and they were kind enough to send me a scan of them. It is possible that Kilmainham are also going to scan the list of customs house prisoners for me as well, so i might end up with a copy soon and can check myself.
-
That's great. I have them on my list of contacts but I haven't got around to writing to them yet. I wonder if there's anything else relating to the CH in the archives there? :)
-
Just an Update, John Wilson never spoke to his family about the War of Independence or the Civil War, so theres not much the family can add,But there is one good thing, Seanod do you remember me asking you about the picture of the prisoners from the CH ? Well I got the book Dublins Fighting Story, I have scanned the picture to John Wilson`s daughter & she thinks he father might be the 3rd prisoner from the left,if this is the same picture that appeared in the newspaper years ago we have a match I think.
-
I have 4 photos of prisoners from Kilmainham; as i'm sure many of you know already, some of the prisoners smuggled in a camera and took some group photos. These particular photos were donated to Kilmainham by the son of Frank Carberry (marked in some of the photos with an x). According to the autograph books, Frank Carberry shared a cell with Frank Brennan, hence the "two franks" and the "inseperables" from the autograph books from my previous post. So, essentially there is a very good chance that most (or at least some) of the prisoners in the photo's are from the "fire brigade", the customs house men.
I am unable to identify if frank Brennan is any of the photos but sitting next to Frank Carberry in one of the photos (19PC1A5408 first one below) is a man in a white shirt and black vest who bears a striking similarity to Frank Brennan (i'm almost sure that it is but its hard to be 100% sure.
-
next two photos.
-
Great pictures.
Would be great if a few faces are spotted.
2nd one, I wonder what they're reading.
And they're holding up some writing. ? ?
There's a grand mop of hair at the front. That mop is akin to Tom Barry's.
-
They are terrific pictures. :) I wonder who they all are and if it would be possible to put names to some of the faces? I particularly like the second one. They are obviously having some kind of Irish lesson. It looks like Má thá sibh (if you are - should be Má tá sibh) on the board, in the old Gaelic script. Thanks a lot for posting them.
-
On closer inspection, I think it's Má thá uait, which means "If you want", or something like that.
-
Glad you liked the photo's; though its an immense shame that we've no idea who they were. The only person named is Frank Carberry and i'm uncertain of his history and role at this stage.
-
I think we can assume the man who is beside Frank Carberry in two of the pictures and standing behind him in the other is probably the other inseperable, Frank Brennan.
-
Hi Lads,Just found the site. Don't know how I was looking for information on Portobello. A few bits on the lines I have read might be of help to people.
The Hendersons were Frank and Leo,
The Ward chap was called John and sean.It would depend on who you were talking to. also what group.
HI SMOKESTOMUCH, People who never got pensions. A man taking part in the war of Independence and the Civil war, Who continued on serving up to 1926. He could not get the pension because he was already getting state pay. He could take the pension or the pay but could not take both, To-day its different. I gave a case to the Dept of Defence to copy and put on their files some years ago. Also this person re applied in the 1935/36 to be told that his application had arrived after the closing date and the Dept could do nothing for him,
SEANOD. Oscar Traynor never got caught at the Custom House. A sore point with one of the men who came down from the second floor on hearing what he though was the signal to clear the building.Oscar forced him back up the stairs at the point of a gun. Our man went, Some time later in the Civil War the score was almost made even. As Oscar came out of the building to surrender Our man put the rifle to shoulder and before he squeezed the trigger. His Sgt something along the lines. "Don't you will regret it all your life and you will have to deal with me"
F
-
SEANOD.The memorial committee of 1962. The man from Holland who cast the thing. He done a lot of the work for nothing. There was not enough cash at the time. He is on the stand on the day of the unveiling. Paddy Buttnier was in charge of the colours. and firing party. Ned Lane of F Coy 2nd Bn and a member of the ASU was a member of the committee. They had special flag days and ran sales of work in the Mansion House to pay for it.
Frank Flood was hung in Mountjoy, One of his tasks was to train Capt Teresa McDowell of the Dromcondra Bch Cumman na mBan in the use of the weapons of the 2nd Battalion. She in turn trained the girls in the branch in how to load, unload and make safe. They often brought the weapons to the attack site and collected them afterwards. At times they would get them back jamed, or half cocked. They needed to know how to make them safe. They were good at their job. Maggie Jordan, Marsella Crimmins, Josephene McDowell. Theresa McDowell. Rose Mulligan, Kathleen Lane Sara Kealy those last two from Fairview Bch. and were out in 1916 at Jacobs.
-
Hi Private
Welcome to the site. And one of the most informative treads.
My grandfather managed to get a pension but at the time he was working as a messenger for the Presidents Dept. (that would now be dept. of Taoiseach). I wonder was it defense forces that were turned down on the basis of being on state pay. (Hope it wasn't strings being pulled.) Of course maybe that job wasn't considered permanent. When Dev was out of power he was out of a job.
Sounds like a harsh rule.
(I see another message pop up as i type) Have you come across Mary or May leech (married name Nicholson) in Cumman Na Mban. Sorry I've decided to drop her name wherever I can. She in some autograph book, but I know nothing more.
-
The man called Green. His first name was Gilly, I don't know if thats the correct way to spell it.
That first photo front line from the left number 2 and 3 I may have there names . It will take a while to dig out.
Second photo front line first on the right should have his as well. I'll try to put up a photo after I post these few words. Don't want to lose them. Back in a while with a photo I hope.
-
Hi Smoketomuch. Ithink the rule on state pay ran across the board. You could only get one wage or pay from the state. You of course took the higest one. so it always looked like the pension was been hit. Without saying to much I knew the man that started the process of where you can have a state pension for service in a state job. and at the same time get a state wage. and if you had a job were you paid stamps you can have another pension. Not bad for a lucky few.
Sorry I have nothing on a Mary Leech. What Bch was she in do you know.
Good to here from you.
-
Thanks for trying.
She came from Ballybough North Dublin, Her address was given on the autograph as Charleville mall.
The autograph book was from Kilmainham in the civil war.
Edit; Sorry North william street in Ballybough.
-
Hi again my try at putting a photo up failed. Loaded to slow or was to big. I'll Keep trying. that Miss Leech would have been known by the McDowells. They lived on summerhill Parade and their Gran lived at 24 North William St. She would have gone to the school on the other side of the road and gone to mass in St Aghtas Church. If she was born between the years 1900 to 1916 she would have been in one of the McDowells class. There was six sisters in the school.
-
Hi some of the men who were on the Custom House Job.
Frank Bolster
Paddy Cadwell
Frank Flood
Tom Flood
Michael Joe Gilhooly
Joe Gilfoyle
Joe Leonard
Tom Lillis
Gus Murphy
George Nolan
Frank Saurin
Bill Stapleton
Frank Thornton
Liam Tobin
Oscar Traynor
James Tully
Mick Lane
Edward Lane These names you can add to your list.
-
Roll of Honour
Boys of the cycleists co 2nd Batt.who were captured at Custom House 25th May 1921.Cyrol Daly
Mick Murphy
George Dowell
Ed Lane
Dick SEVILLE
TONY FLYNN
PATRICK McCOURT
TOMMY GREGAN
MICK DUGGAN
MICK LANE
CHARLIE RYAN
-
Still can not get a photo on to this, Private 1st class
-
Hi Philip Flynn was like other prisoners and was moved about from cell to cell. This was sometimes due to the normal problems that can occour when men are locked up in a confined space. Its the same in prisons everywhere. Philip was in Cell 33 Section D on the 24th July '21.
-
Private 1 st class pic number 1 sorry I had to chop it down to get it too upload
-
Pic 2 again sorry had to chop it down anyone who wants the full pics please PM me your email & I will forward them to you.
-
Last one!
-
Hi many thanks for that, The body of that poor fellow was further out on the road ware he fell. They dragged him to that position until the lorry came and they put him into it. Don't know where they took it. Should not be to hard to find out
The other one with the group sitting beside the statue is the committee who organised the event. The Dutch artist had to do a lot of work for nothing on the job. Not enough money. I met him and his wife. Very nice people. The photo was taken from outside the rails on the street. Not the best.
The third one the little face under your mans arms. is Ned Lane. He was flushed out by soldiers from the basement yard. When they called on him to come out with his hands up or they would blow him to kingdom come.He answered back. They new his very distinctive voice. They had being guarding him for weeks before hand and was not long out. This may have saved is life. The people who he is standing with were not on the job, Just people they had rounded up He was taken from the arch to the end and corner of the building. You could feel the heat of the fire. Then he was taken under the arch into smaller groups of single lines, Private 1st class.
-
A very warm welcome to Private First Class! There is some really first class information there. You wouldn't have a name for the man that Traynor ordered upstairs at gunpoint? The lists of names of people involved are really good. About half of them I had, but there are a lot of names of people I suspected were involved but had no evidence. I was interested to see the thing about cyclists. I came across a grave in York last summer of a man who belonged to a cyclists' battalion in the First WW. The sculptor who did the Custom House memorial was a Breton and was in exile in Ireland. Yann Renard-Goulet, if I remember right. I'll have a good look through the stuff and then get back to you when I get the chance. :)
-
I have always thought that the picture of the dead man lying on the ground outside the Custom House might have been Edward Dorins. It is hard to tell, of course, but there is a picture of Edward available here.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_Dorins.jpg
:)
-
That's the man that done the statue,. A very nice guy. Mick Lane was the name of the Vol sent back up -stairs. He had been put in charge of the top landing security.Only told his brother Edward a few weeks before he died. Edward was trying to get him to hand over his medals for safe keeping while in hospital.Oscar had a major input into Edwards life. He recruited him from the I C A. into f Coy 2ND Battalion They were next door neighbours.When he came home from the U S. They linked up again and he started to organize the new FF party in the Dublin Nth East The strange one about Mick. He joined the Dublin Met; Police. and was in the company of Oscar when he was minister.Mick was carrying a six chamber revolver and the necessary ammo. The hate was long gone. Life can be strange.Private 1st class
-
Hi again Seanod. English had cyclists in Battalions. The Irish Army had them also. The Magazine fort housed 100s of army bikes. Great bikes, Had things like a rifle rack and frames for your packs. Some had carbide lamps on them. Might have all ended up as scrap. Pte 1st class
-
This is the picture from the Dublins fighting story book.John Wilson`s daughter reckons her Father could be the third prisoner from the left.
-
The picture of the chap dead on the ground was taken in Beresford Place, if you came down eden quay & turned left like you where heading to gardiner or store st, the building would be on your left hand side.
-
Hi. That building became a womens labour exchange in later years. He was further out on the road and was pulled from where he first fell . Private 1st class
-
Oh I was thinking it could be there too the bottom of Gardiner St! the old dole office !
-
Somewhere in Beresford Place would be right for my great-uncle, Gary. According to Vinnie Byrne, he died around the Loop Line Bridge along with Dan Head.
I was just looking at the 1911 Census for the Lane brothers. According to that, Michael Lane was only 5 in 1911, so he could only have been 15-16 at the time of the Custom House. Private 1st Class, where did you come across the roll of honour document for the boy cyclists?
-
Hi Seanad. Correct on Michael he was very young but looked older then Edward. Mick was five or six inches taller then Ned. Michael was taken prisoner at the entrance to the river. They did not see one another till they meet in Kilmainham, Mick went in first. Ned, AND THEN VINNY bYRNE, VINNY WAS NOT TO BE IN THERE HIS POSITION WAS ACROSS THE ROAD BETWEEN GARDNIER ST AND BUS STATION. Did not do what he was told. Hay whats new. When he was in he was asked to stay as it was soon to dawn that they had not enough men, I think it was Ennis that asked him and the fellow he was with. Ned and Vinny went up to the first floor together . Ned went left the bridge side Vinny went to the right the docks side.Mick WENT TO THE TOP TO COVER THE MEN. getting tired lads making typing errors. The bike list comes from Ned. Mick was in cell6 Section C West Wing. His photo was the last one in the daly album. It was in bad condition Igave Kilmaimham Museum a copy of my one in perfect condition. Private 1st class
-
Hi All, apologies for not getting back sooner but I found out that a cousin of mine did a school project for her leaving cert on the Doyle brothers last year (she's a lot younger than me!) so I've been waiting to get hold of some of the info she gathered. Anyway, as part of her research she got various documents related to the two brothers from several sources (eg. Dept of Defense, Allen library, Pensions Dept., newspapers etc.). I've a few different things to add so I'll do separate posts.
Seanod: First in relation to your query about any connections with the Woods family - not much here except my mother thinks that one of Patrick Doyle's sisters (Sarah) married into the Woods family? (My mothers maiden name was Proudfoot. Her mother was Kathleen Doyle, daughter of Sean Doyle (F. Coy, 1st Batt, Squad, ASU 1914-21, CO P. O'Daly). She thinks a relation that they called "Fawdy" Woods (probably Paddy) built the house in which she grew up (on Grace Park Terrace, Drumcondra) and that her mother Kathleen was Godmother to two Woods that worked in RTE at some point. Make any sense to you?
-
CH Burning - As part of the mountain of paper I've just gotten hold of are copies of the "Freeman's Journal" for the days immediately following the attack. You all may be familiar with these already so I'll just say that there is some great coverage and photo's, particularly in relation to some of the more recent posts on this thread. For example, there's a photo of a body being loaded into an ambulance, there's another photo of the prisoners with their hands up that was posted a couple of pages previously (though it is from the rear and not possible to identify the men, but there are 5 of them in this picture). There's also a photo of an Auxillary with 2 "captured" bicycles left behind (maybe he's taking them away to do the Flann O'Brien test to determine who the owners are!)
-
John Wilson - I don't know if this is at all relevant but I'll put it up anyway. Part of the documentation from the Allen library is the transcript of a statement by a Mary O'Doherty taken around 1940. It is stated that this relates to her and her sisters (Teresa) activities as Irish White Cross nurses during 1923 - though the time span has to be wider because of a reference to Patrick Doyle (execeuted 1921). This is rambling and doesn't flow very well but there is a reference to a young man Wilson who they took to a couple of hospitals to have shot removed from his knee (no first name, no date). Could this be a reference to John Wilson? Did he ever have a knee/leg injury?
-
I'm loading part of a photo which I just have a copy of. I don't know what book it's from but it came with the rest of the stuff on the Doyle brothers. The caption says that it is a picture of "a woman with her child outside Mountjoy jail while her husband is hanged - 1921" I believe this is Louisa Doyle with her daughter Kathleen in her arms on the day of Patrick Doyles execution (I'm comparing with another known photo, and the child is the right age/size etc.). It struck me that the man immediately to the right of the child looks very like one of the men pictured in Kilmainham photo number 3 posted by Kristof (2nd from left back row). Anyone else see it? In any case, I don't know who it is.
-
Hi Nice photo. This section does not ring a bell.Private 1st class.
-
This all really interesting! I noticed in something I was reading last night that Ned Lane was in the Easter Rising, so he must have been about 15 or 16 then as well. It's these kind of stories I'm looking for - the stories of where people were and what they were doing (and what they were supposed to be doing!) As for the Woods family, Pcdl, I don't know much about them myself, but I'll see if I can find out anything else about them. In reference to the picture of Patrick Doyle's wife, take another look at the picture! Mrs Doyle and that man are identical. If you can find out Louise Doyle's maiden name, I'm sure you'll have his name too. Like the Flann O'Brien reference. Ah, the two speed gears! They are a power for the hills ... :)
-
Hi Seanod, there's another thread on this site I came across recently (cause there was a reference to Patrick Doyle). The guy that posted was looking for info on an Albert Brock (who married Patrick Doyle's widow, Louisa, in 1928). I got some information on her/Pat and their family which I put up last night also. Take a look here;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373655.0.html
Louisa's maiden name was Herbert and she was from Scotland. You're right they do look alike and he could be a brother, but I don't have any further info than what I posted (yet anyway). I've been searching the 1911 census to see if I can find the right Doyle family but with no luck - I want to find out where they grew up. I still have some stuff to go through and hopefully I'll find a clue there. I did find a death notice for Sean Doyle in the Freeman's jounal which mentions Sean's late father (another Patrick of Bray, Wicklow) but I have been concentrating on Dublin up to now, so maybe that's another avenue.
I was just wondering have you ever heard of people purposly giving false information in the census? Strikes me that might be something that could have happened in 1911 to frustrate the authorites, but I don't know if there's any substance to that notion.
-
Hi, I have had a similar problem with the O'Reilly brothers. I know they came from the Jones' Road area but I can't find them in the Census at all. As they were Gaeilgeoirí I have tried Ua Raghailligh, Ua Rathaile and every permutation I can think of but with no result. I con't know if people were prosecuted for not giving their census details? Anyway, I just had a look and Louisa Herbert was living at Fitzwilliam Place North (Arran Quay, Dublin) in the 1911 Census. She had a brother called Matthew who was 26 at that time, so he could be the man in the picture, who would then be in his mid 30s. :)
-
Hi, when you look at a face with a hat on it can change that face. Same with women's hair. Can make a big difference to the face. People can be missing for a number of reasons. I have to look at the 1901 census to see if he was there on the night. He developed croup and was sent to the country. If he is not there in 1901 it will give me an idea as to when he was sent to the country. He spent nine years in the country and is back for the 1911. It narrows the time . It has taken me forty five years to get information on a man and women. The reason she was not on the census was she was living in Aldershot. We don't realise how much we move around. The same with the housing . They moved around so much. Not very far . Meaby a mile or less. Best of luck. Keep going. Private 1st class
-
Thanks Seanod....hopefully I'll be able to pull all the bits together and come up with some answers.
Private1stclass - it is very difficult to identify people from this period as you say.........the fact thet everyone seems to wear hats, same style clothes, haircuts etc., they all end up looking very similar.
-
Not to mention the facial furniture. Some of them look as if they've detached the wings from a small bird and stuck it to their upper lip. :)
-
John Wilson - I don't know if this is at all relevant but I'll put it up anyway. Part of the documentation from the Allen library is the transcript of a statement by a Mary O'Doherty taken around 1940. It is stated that this relates to her and her sisters (Teresa) activities as Irish White Cross nurses during 1923 - though the time span has to be wider because of a reference to Patrick Doyle (execeuted 1921). This is rambling and doesn't flow very well but there is a reference to a young man Wilson who they took to a couple of hospitals to have shot removed from his knee (no first name, no date). Could this be a reference to John Wilson? Did he ever have a knee/leg injury?
I will look into the Knee/leg injury I have never heard of this before but I will ask his daughter, plus his daughter had applied for his pension app, so it may say if he was injuried.Thanks for that.
-
Hi Gary, I happened on this today:
FJ of Jan 13, 1922. “OUT OF MOUNTJOY: Men Who Were Under Sentence of Death and Others.
…
Jas Flood, Ml Watchhorn, Joseph Murphy, J.J. Wilson, John Sliney, Ed Breslin, Patrick Brunton. – These 7 men were arrested at the Custom House.”
-
I should point out that these individuals were not under sentence of death - I have just missed out all the names on the list which don't relate to the Custom House. If anyone's interested I'll post the whole list.
-
Cheers Sean, now heres a question ! was everyone that was picked up at the Custom House sentenced to death? or was it just a few?
-
As far as I know, I don't think any of them were sentenced to death, Gary. Although the Republicans thought they had killed some of the Auxiliaries in the engagement, my research suggests that they didn't kill any, and they weren't able to identify the ones who shot Davis. Lawless was shot by the Auxiliaries and the other two could have been shot by anyone, or just hit by stray bullets. I think all the captured republicans were just imprisoned or interned (I don't think they were actually tried or sentenced either) and then released from December to January.
-
Hi, re-reading those last items I don't think I explained myself very well. There is a longish list of names under the heading about sentenced to death and others, maybe forty of them. About half way down is the list of seven names and the note about them being Custom House prisoners. There is no information about where most of the others were captured, apart from the few at the top who had been under sentence of death. As for the question of the Custom House captives being sentenced, when I was talking about the death of the Auxiliaries and of Davis the caretaker, the point is that the British wouldn't have had any evidence of any of them being involved in murder, but the fact is, I don't think they even bothered trying them. It was a Guantanamo job - they were enemy combatants interned after being captured in action. And of course, after a few weeks it became clear that the war was over anyway and that eventually they would be released under the terms of the peace.
-
Seanod, I was talking to one of my Aunts last night on the phone, she told me that Johnny Wilson was on the run for a long time,Possibly from around 1919.So I would say when he was picked up they already had him on something else.
-
I suppose that could be true of a lot of them. If they did give them trials it would have been a military court but I presume there would be a record of them somewhere. I hope to get to the archives some time in March and have a look at a few things but it's hard to find the time.
-
Are the Archives still open ? did they not close for building work or something? I really want to get a look at Joe Leonards statement. I have an idea about something but dont want to say till I read leonards statement ! its surposed to link Johnny Wilson with the squad.
-
I'll have to check that, but the Witness Statements are also in the Military Archives. If I get to one of the archives before you I'll try and get a copy for you. :)
-
Here's the notice
http://www.military.ie/dfhq/archives/arch.htm
-
Thanks for that Ms Smokestoomuch. In that case it'll have to be the main archives. I am sure some of you have realised this, but I was completely wrong about people being sentenced to death. Tom Flood and a handful of others were sentenced to hang after they were captured at the CH but by a bizarre stroke of luck, Flood got appendicitis just before that and so the whole batch of hangings was delayed long enough that the truce intervened. I don't know who the others were but I think ... I think Frank Bolster was one of them. I'll check it out. Got some great information in the post this morning. Need to have a good look and sort it and then I'll see if there are any answers to questions raised here.
-
Check this post before visiting the NAI.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,415148.0.html
Dara.
Edit: Link added. Apologies for omission.
-
Hi again. Yes, Frank Bolster, Tom Flood, and Thomas A Byrne were among the group sentenced to death by court martial for their part in the Custom House. Anyone out there know who the others were? :)
-
Hi! This is a very interesting strand. I am doing some research on the Custom House - my father's uncle was killed there. My intention is to produce a book about the event, and so far with the internet I have found a lot of stray pieces of information. My great-uncle's name was Edward Dorins and he was also a member of E Co, Second Battalion. I would be grateful for any information that people have and I will try to find out more based on what you have given here. The only other member of E Co known to me was Capt Daniel J Begley, who was a veteran of the Easter Rising and died in 1940. I have no evidence that he was at the Custom House but it seems likely. I found an obituary from the Irish Independent for Capt. John Wilson which I don't have with me at the time of writing but I will post it as soon as I have the chance. I will also add PC Flynn to my list and let you know if I find anything else about him.
-
Hi,
If and when the book is printed included me on the list to buy one,
thank you
-
National Photographic Archive
Meeting House Square , Temple Bar, Dublin 2.
Tel: 01 603 0371
Fax 01 6777451
E-mail photoarchive[at]nli.ie
Web http://www.nli.ie
The archive contains over 300,000 photographs, with a number of collections of relevance to military heritage. The Keogh collection covers the years 1914-1923 and includes images of the Irish Volunteers, National Volunteers, Irish Citizen Army, British Army, IRA and National Army as well as of numerous individuals involved in the War of Independence and the Civil War. The Valentine postcard and the J.W., O’Neill collections deal with the 1916 Rising and its aftermath. The Hogan/Lennon collection has a substantial number of photographs of events from 1920-1924 especially during the Civil War. Smaller collections relating to the Civil War are Fitzelle, MacConnoran and Matthews. There are also some photographs of interest in the Casement and Sheehy Skeffington collections.
Open Mon-Fri, 10.00am-5.00pm, Sat 10.00am-2.00pm.
-
Thanks for that, I will have to make a note of those collections and take a look. There may be information of value there. I hope I get the book finished in time for the 90th anniversary but we'll just have to see. I'm always busy. :-\
-
someone may find this interesting
-
Booklet detailing the dead 'Fianna Heroes of 1916'
http://ivrlaprod.ucd.ie/fedora/get/ivrla10-:30626/ivrla10-:objLayoutbDef/getLayout/
-
Hi Gorman who signed that on the end?
-
Hello Gary,
See it here
http://ivrlaprod.ucd.ie/fedora/get/ivrla10-:30881/ivrla10-:objLayoutbDef/getLayout/
-
Sorry I should have seen the link,I read John Pinkmans in the legion of the Vanguard a few weeks ago, I never knew how much trucers where hated ! I got my own Granfathers Army records a few weeks ago & managed to prove he was he was in the IRA & I was also glad he was pre truce !
-
Hi, that's an interesting document but it's amazing how general it is. If the word irregular wasn't in there with negative connotations you wouldn't know which side the person was on from the content!
-
Interesting.
When you look at it that way, it does seem the words of a State to the population at large rather than one mans opinion about the irregulars.
Don't want to sound like I'm underestimating bitterness. But I wonder was it to try tackle what support the irregulars may have got rather than an attempt to try get irregulars to see sense.
-
I don't know much about the Civil War period, but there were also neutrals who were disgusted at the spectacle of the former comrades butchering one another.
-
As time goes on the neutral voice grows faint.
Not trying to be poetic, but it's hard to open a history book and see evidence of it today.
The drama and bitterness writes better I guess.
If I could guess human nature I'd say there may have been a strong aversion to the futility.
But the books we're left with doesn't reflect it.
With time the history of the north of Ireland will no doubt only reflect on the divisions and not on how tired people were facing into each day of it.
-
Amen to that (the bit about being tired of the Troubles) though the Newry business shows we're not out of the woods yet. :(
-
Sorry
I bummed everyone out.
That tired 1980s feeling was back with me yesterday too.
I'll drag it back on to the the current issue on the tread.
The document above.
The support base is an issue really that, to my eyes, may be at the heart of it's origins. If you just think about the neutral watching executions and other very emotive headlines.
I think I read somewhere (maybe it was in the dail debates) that the free state government at the time were trying to get the press to change their language when covering stories. Certain teams were to be avoided.
Wish I could find it now, I can't remember was it the term "irregulars" or "IRA" that they took issue with.
Propaganda from all side was probably coming hard and fast. Another interesting book there, I'd say.
-
Definitely - you could do a very thick book on the language of Anglo-Irish relations and I think comparing it to the rhetoric of the current War on Terror would be material for another one!
Private 1st Class - if you are still following this thread, you see the list here which you posted a while back:
Hi some of the men who were on the Custom House Job.
Frank Bolster
Paddy Cadwell
Frank Flood
Tom Flood
Michael Joe Gilhooly
Joe Gilfoyle
Joe Leonard
Tom Lillis
Gus Murphy
George Nolan
Frank Saurin
Bill Stapleton
Frank Thornton
Liam Tobin
Oscar Traynor
James Tully
Mick Lane
Edward Lane These names you can add to your list.
I have a lot of these names already but I was wondering about a few of them like Saurin, Tobin and Thornton. How are you sure they were present? Do you have any information about what role they had in the attack, where they were and how they got away? Anything would be helpful. :)
-
Seanod,
You can add Thomas Donnelly to that list aswell. I was on this thread a while back and I received written documentation from the Department of Defence highlighting the fact that he was part of the 2nd battalion initial attack on the CH.
unfortunately I don't have details of exactly what he did but you can be sure he was there when it all kicked off!
-
Hi , My father is Edward Lane. Mick Lane is his brother.I attended a lot of there gatherings as a child and a young adult. I would have done the bugle calls at a lot of there funerals. My father was the liason officer first for the 2nd battalion and later as they got old he looked after the whole of the Dublin Brigade along with his life long friend Vinny Byrne. In the later days he often travled in the hearse as the men got to know him. He did not driveI spent many hours in 196 Pearse St . As a founder member of the NRPAI. Igot them to hold there meetings there. So fri Nights and Sunday mornings were spent there. I was always asking questions. and over the years I built up a picture of what it was like in those times. I listened to the hot and hard rows that would brake out every so often. When the lease was up and the College took back 196 we moved over to 51 Parnell Sq, I found that if they though you were interested they would talk after some time.Joe ( joseph) Gilhooly was in cell 19 of section B of Kilmainham Jail on the 24th July 1921 He wrote the following three single lines one under the other the fourth states " From one of the boys". When the work to repair the jail was started. groups of them would would arrive to look at the place.. I would ask them to go to the cell they were in. Some times they could and some times not. Or if they had moved cell it would cause a problem. I wrote it into a note book and gave it to one of the men. I have never seen it since. Frank Bolster was very good at drawing.
-
Hi, I was away there for a few days. I could have found an internet connection if I'd wanted to but decided to leave it for a while! Anyway, thanks to Gavdonnelly for that. I'll include him on the list. Any further information about him? Also thanks to Private First Class. You must have a connection to the events of that time which very few other people have, so stick with the thread and contribute as much as you can. Anything you remember which might be of interest, remember to post it here! Did anyone ever mention anyone called Tallon or Murran? They were on the Memorial Committee but I don't know much about them. By the way, elsewhere you mentioned a John Doyle, who was not the same as Seán Doyle. John Doyle might be the same as the Johnny Doyle who fired the first shells into the Four Courts and who is mentioned in several sources. What do you think?
-
Seanod this may interest you:
Where's where in Dublin: a directory of historic locations, 1913-1923 : ...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07lf/
page 6: 55 Amiens Street ...
page 55: ... On 21st May 1921 a meeting was held here to finalize the plans to burn the Custom House. In attendance were Michael Collins, Sean Dowling, Richard Mulcahy, Ginger O'Connell and Oscar Traynor.
Hi Linda, Thanks for that. I thought this was another version of the book I've mentioned before, Dublin in Rebellion, but it doesn't give the same information. The Dublin in Rebellion book says that 55 Amiens street was the home of Seán Doyle, who was killed at the CH, but there is no mention of the meeting. I'll have to get that book. :)
This was posted in Dec. by Linda
I am the author of both books, and would be happy to answer questions if I can - though the info on this site is marvellous.
Also I have a regular spot on Talking History on Newstalk and the May segment is to include the burning of the Custom House. The segment is the first Sunday every month, and starts about 8:45 pm.
-
Hi Joseph & welcome ! I was going to Email you about this but this is as good a place as any to ask, does the name Dan Hannon ring a bell ? Johnny Wilson was a friend of his & Married into the family.I know Dan Fought in the War of Independence & the Civil War I am just wondering if you ever came across his name in your research !
-
Hi, Frank Saurin, Liam Tobin, Frank Thornton were in the Custom House, at what part can not remember. Oscar Traynor last known position at the time of the whistle blasts was in the main hall. Mick Lane was on the 2ND floor landing. Edward Lane was on the first floor and in the first room of the building facing Liberty Hall and Brooks Tom Ennis was making his way back up the stairs and moving along the front of the building towards the liberty hall side. Mick lane came down into the hall and was forced back up the stairs at the point of Oscars gun. utter panic in that hall at that time . lots of shouting roaring etc Guns being waved about. shots were being fired from the building and at the building. Vinny Byrne was on the Store St side with another Squad man. He may have been on the first floor. I have a photo of the committee on the day of the unveiling. not to clear it was taken from the railing in the street. Distance was to great. Looking at what can be done to repair photos its possible that it could be sharpened up.
-
Hi Joseph & welcome ! I was going to Email you about this but this is as good a place as any to ask, does the name Dan Hannon ring a bell ? Johnny Wilson was a friend of his & Married into the family.I know Dan Fought in the War of Independence & the Civil War I am just wondering if you ever came across his name in your research !
Sorry, Gary, my quick look didn't find that name.
I'll keep looking though
-
Thanks Joseph,By any chance do any of you have Joe Leonards withness Statement ? Joseph told me via email a few months ago that it mentions J Wilson.If not whats the story with the National Archive is it back open & can i just walk in off the street & ask for it & have a read?
-
Hi folks. A very warm welcome to Mr Connell. Dublin in Rebellion is a great book. A real mine of information. I'll try and listen to the broadcast. Thanks for the added details there, Private First Class. And I'm still planning a trip to Dublin this month, so I wouldn't mind finding out about the Archives. I'll email them or check the website. I'm sure I have a few questions. I'll sort them out and then post them. :)
-
Hi all, have not posted on here for a while. But I have been following all the new threads.
I have looked through my grandads pension application again and he wrote that he was attached to Intelligence belonging to E Co II Battalion. Does anyone know what that means. He also said he was released from Kilmainham on 8th Dec 1921.
Also he took part in the attack on the L N W Rly Hotel. Can anyone throw some light on this for me, and is this the place in the photo. I did mention this in another thread and because of the answer I got I found these a web site. It was on the North Wall Quay.
-
Hi Margnip, Welcome back. As I mentioned before, my father's uncle was in E company of the Second Battalion as well. Each company had an intelligence officer who would collect information, rumours, possible sightings of people or possibilities for missions and then pass relevant information on to a Battalion intelligence man who would be in touch with Collins's intelligence people. So I presume he must have been the IO for that company. E Company Second Battalion was involved in the attack on Bloody Sunday when Mahon and two Auxiliaries were killed at Mount Street. It is described in T Ryle Dwyer's Book on Collins and the Squad. I have read something about the hotel attack but I can't remember where - I think the brother of someone who was killed in the Custom House was shot at that attack. I'll find out and post it. :)
-
Thanks Joseph,By any chance do any of you have Joe Leonards withness Statement ? Joseph told me via email a few months ago that it mentions J Wilson.If not whats the story with the National Archive is it back open & can i just walk in off the street & ask for it & have a read?
Hi Gary
I do have Joe Leonard's Witness Statement, Number 547. I just quickly checked and it does speak to the Burning of the Custom House, though I do not believe it mentions Johnny Wilson. Have to check my notes further.
The Witness Statements are available in the National Archives in Bishop Street as well as at the Military Archives in Cathal Brugha Barrracks. One needs a "Reader's Ticket" but that is easily enough completed on your first visit. The "Reader's Ticket" at the National Library requires a passport photo.
-
Hi Joseph,
To be honest I think the link might be Bloody Sunday ?,as the only time Johnny is mentioned anywhere is as part of the Squad, also Johnny stayed live long friends with Bill Stapleton.
-
Hi all, have not posted on here for a while. But I have been following all the new threads.
I have looked through my grandads pension application again and he wrote that he was attached to Intelligence belonging to E Co II Battalion. Does anyone know what that means. He also said he was released from Kilmainham on 8th Dec 1921.
Also he took part in the attack on the L N W Rly Hotel. Can anyone throw some light on this for me, and is this the place in the photo. I did mention this in another thread and because of the answer I got I found these a web site. It was on the North Wall Quay.
The attack took place on the 11th of April 1921. The Hotel is variously given in different sources as the Railway Hotel, the Holyhead Hotel or Hughes's, but seems to be the same place. A man called Peter David Freyne, an NCO of E Company Second Battalion was killed in the attack. He was 18. His brother Frankie Freyne was captured at the Custom House.
-
Thanks seanod, a little bit more information to add to the family history. Will have to ask my mother if she recognises the name Freyne.
-
Have found this site. www.7dvt.com/2009portrait-assassin-freyne Hope it works for people.
Sadly the author has passed away, so a missed opportunity.
-
That was great Magnip2 I enjoyed reading that.Funny I heard stories about my own Granfather`s plans of sticking a bullet in Devs head too!
-
Yes, not a very popular man, my mother says my grandad didn't think too much of him.
Shame the author died, he was only 59 and I only discovered him today.
-
Hi all, I didn't realise he was dead. I had it on my list to contact him. Like you say, an opportunity missed. Some time when I have a half hour I'll copy out some of the details of the attack on the hotel - I think it was being used as the HQ of the Auxiliaries at the time, not as a hotel. By the way, I have lost a bit of information. I read the name of the intelligence man who was posted to watch Beggar's Bush and reported back that it was an unsuitable target - it was in an account somewhere but I should have noted it down and I didn't. Anyone else know where that information is?
-
Just a quick Note, The Custom house story in the Dublins fighting story by Oscar Traynor he talks about Beggers Bush planned raid,have to run back to work now but will check to see if the name is in it later!
-
Hi Gary, I tried checking that book but the name isn't there. I definitely read the name somewhere and it was a name I recognised. That'll teach me to write things down somewhere safe when I find them! :-[
-
Hi some of the men who were on the Custom House Job.
Frank Bolster
Paddy Cadwell
Frank Flood
Tom Flood
Michael Joe Gilhooly
Joe Gilfoyle
Joe Leonard
Tom Lillis
Gus Murphy
George Nolan
Frank Saurin
Bill Stapleton
Frank Thornton
Liam Tobin
Oscar Traynor
James Tully
Mick Lane
Edward Lane These names you can add to your list.
Hi, Private First Class. I don't know if you are still following this thread but I would be very interested to hear if you can provide any further details about Tom Lillis or James Tully. Do you have any details about them? Where they came from, what happened to them etc? Anything you can provide would be welcome. :)
-
hi there,found this site while trying to find out information on my wifes grandfather charles mccabe,i see he is listed on a previous post.this all started with me finding his leggins from his free state army uniform in the old family home and now i am trying to find out as much as i can.just a week ago we saw his picture in kilmainham scrapbooks so this is a good start, any help would be much appreciated,
-
HiChas McCabe was in Kilmainham and in July of 1921 he wrote the following little poem.
In cell 5 do I dwell,
And in bloody bad humour I'am feeling,
I'd go right down into hell,
Just for a tip from Teelin.
Hope this little snippet will add to your collection.
Private 1st class
-
Hi, I am researching the Custom House and the people there, so if you could post a short biography of Charles McCabe that would be a big help. (Just where and roughly when he was born, what his job was, marriage details, when and where he died etc.) If you have any family stories about him include them too. Thanks! :)
-
thanks for replies,love the verse he wrote,heres another that we saw in kilmainham last week,
oh friends,abide with us in kilmainham,if no grief can reach thy breast.soon you ll be acclaiming prayers
from this mansion of the blest, cell5 section6, 2-9-21.
what i know so far is that he was born in manchester england ,worked in the shipyards in belfast,
then ended up in dublin,dont know what dates all this happened but i am trying to piece it all together,he was captured at the customs house and ended up in kilmainham on his realease he joined the national
army,my father in law told me he belonged to a squad of men that went around "sorting out anti treaty people" take from that what you will,when he left the army he came to live in monaghan with two elderly brothers that were related to him,he married a local woman whose father had been a sergent in the british army and served in india ,at some point he became a post man.he died in 1958 from cancer,jim slattery attended the funeral,it seems he knew him as he made a few trips to monaghan, i have some photos that i will post when i figure out how to.
-
Hi That poem relates to Frank Teelin. and the looking for a tip. Is how to get out of here. Teelin did escape from Kilmainham.At that time he was friendly with Ned and Mick Lane. They drifted apart when Ned went to live in the U S. Mick joined the D M P. in 1923 after he came out of the army. Private 1st class
-
My grandfather rigged up the bolt cutters that got Teeling, O'Malley and Donnelly out.
He was proudest I think of this activity rather than any acts of bravado.
-
That's interesting, Ms Smokestoomuch. I'll have to put that in the file. Private 1st Class, I realised it was Teeling but I completely missed the point about the Tip! It's obvious when you think about it. And thanks very much for those details Greaghglass. He obviously got around a bit. I wonder if he'll show up on the Census returns in England?
-
how would one look that up? .by the way private first class where did you get that verse?
-
Hi, My father and his brother were in Kilmainham with Charles and the one unit and Battalion. They were quite close mates at the time. Mick Lane was in cell 6 and for a time in cell 4.Ned would call to his brother and charles. He had this on a piece of card. Over the years my father and my self walked over the ground of that fight both inside the building and outside. We done timings of their run from the arch way toward the lane between Liberty Hall and the womens Labour exchange. It was a quite place then. Anyone looking at us at the time possibly thought we were mad, He was on the committee that had the statue erected. That place and Kilmainham had a very deep impact on him and his life.
-
thats amazing,thank god for the internet, i have a picture from the last days he was in kilmainham,it shows charlie and some others i will put it up when i can.
-
Hi look forward to seeing the photo.
-
Ms. Smoketoomuch,
You say your grandfather got Teeling, O'Malley and Donnelly out. Just wondering if you know if the Donnelly you are referring to is Thomas Donnelly.
I've been researching my Great Grandfathers efforts during the war of independence and I got his pension application from the Department of Defence and some other documents from the Cathal Brugha barracks in Rathmines with a list of activities he was involved in like the LNWP Hotel and the Customs House. But what I haven't got is any actual stories passed down which are more interesting and more informative.
He was a section leader in F Coy 2nd Battalion. So is this Donnelly, Thomas Donnelly and do you have any other details about him. Thanks
-
Greaghglass,
Is read your post a few days ago and for some reason Charles McCabe's name stood out. So I went through the files I have on Thomas Donnelly and his name came up. I only have a few details but here they are.
Thomas Donnelly was a section leader in the F Coy 2nd Battalion and he names Charles McCabe as his Comdt between 1st April 1919 and the 31st March 1920. Charles's address was 29 Ellesmere Avenue, North Circular Road.
The documents I have relate to Donnelly's application for pension and following a meeting with the pension board he was asked to submit more info in writing. He listed various activities and details and one of them is listed as follows.
'Charlie McCabe, Christopher Fitzsimons and myself took part in and got to seize a rifle in the Town Hall, Clontarf, the three of us were armed. I recieved a smith and wesson revolver to go on this from John Ward, that would have been about 1920'.
That's it i'm afraid. Hope it helps
Gavin
-
I'm afraid that was Simon Donnelly.
I've no idea if they were related. He lived on Wexford St. Dublin 1911 according to wikipedia.
-
thanks very much for that, this is fantastic ,keep them coming my father in law is in hospital at the minuite so this cheers him up no end,still working on photos ;D
-
Sorry for delay Greaghglass. Were Charles McCabe's parents called James and Mary J?
-
There was a large family of McCabes in Manchester and the parents were called James and Mary J but there doesn't seem to have been a Charles (but then people were sometimes called by names which weren't their official name). The only Charles McCabe I can find was born in 1877 in Salford. His mother was called Ellen and she was remarried to a stepfather called Lees. How old was Charles McCabe in 1921? I don't suppose he could have been in his forties. If you can provide me with any information - names of his siblings, date of birth, other names used, I might be able to narrow it down.
-
thanks seanod,i have found out that charlie was born in 1899,his father was james mccabe,a police man ,his mother was may goodwin ,he had a brother frank and two sisters elsie and mary.incidently his brother frank was involved in the rising and went to live in the usa.
-
Hi Greaghglass, Unfortunately I still can't find them using those names. It is possible that they moved on somewhere else after the 1901 census - if they were in Ireland at the time of the census they won't show up there, as it hasn't been digitised yet. However, it does seem strange that the index of births for England and Wales isn't showing a Charles McCabe in Lancashire for 1899 or the years around. Perhaps he was born somewhere else?
-
I have viewed the family in the 1911 English census but copyright prevents me from giving you the details, however I am allowed to quote from the free index which lists Charles James McCabe aged 11 at Manchester.
Good luck,
J.T.A.
-
Thanks a lot for that! I'll check it out. :)
-
many thanks seanod, like that.
-
I dont know if this was put up before but its an eye withness account of the Custom House Burning.
http://www.peteconnolly.co.uk/blog/wordpress/jim-harpurs-recollections/jim-harpurs-recollections-part-3/
-
Hi, I have had a similar problem with the O'Reilly brothers. I know they came from the Jones' Road area but I can't find them in the Census at all. As they were Gaeilgeoirí I have tried Ua Raghailligh, Ua Rathaile and every permutation I can think of but with no result. I con't know if people were prosecuted for not giving their census details? Anyway, I just had a look and Louisa Herbert was living at Fitzwilliam Place North (Arran Quay, Dublin) in the 1911 Census. She had a brother called Matthew who was 26 at that time, so he could be the man in the picture, who would then be in his mid 30s. :)
The O'Reilly brothers, Patrick and Stephen, lived in 3 Wellesley Place in 1911
-
Hi all
Back from my visit to Dublin (came back a couple of weeks ago). Had a chat with my Aunty and one of the stories she told me was 'Some of the men were allocated to each door of the Customs House. My granddad was at the last door facing onto the railway. He saw the tans coming down in their armoured cars, and they (the tans) started firing. He and the other men started firing back and then it went quite. The fella who was with my granddad (who my aunty called Hands) said he was going to see what was going on. My granddad called him back but was to late and he got killed by machine gun fire.'
Thats the story off my aunty. I told this to Lizzie who works at Kilmainham Goal and she tolds me that the mans name was Daniel Head. It seems he got killed lobbing a handgrenade at the Black and Tans.
My aunty also told me that when my granddad got caught he and some of the others were lined up by a business called T&T Martins near or under Butt Bridge. Before he was caught he had thrown his gun and ammo into the fire so it would not be found on him. He also had a rosary on him that my granny had given to him just before he went on the job. To bring him home safe. He had managed to throw that away before he was searched but one of the Tans had picked it up and marched up and down the line asking who it belonged to. Of course my granddad could not own up to owning them and so lost them.
Gary, thanks for that link made very good reading.
-
My grandfather was involved in the burning of the custom house, and was sent to Kilmainham. His diary is in Kilmainham archives. Will look for the picture of his old regiment.
-
That would be great if you can find it. What Brigade was he in? My granddad was in E Company 2nd Battalion.
-
He was Richard ( Dick) Seville B Company 2nd Battallion
-
Hi, I have had a similar problem with the O'Reilly brothers. I know they came from the Jones' Road area but I can't find them in the Census at all. As they were Gaeilgeoirí I have tried Ua Raghailligh, Ua Rathaile and every permutation I can think of but with no result. I con't know if people were prosecuted for not giving their census details? Anyway, I just had a look and Louisa Herbert was living at Fitzwilliam Place North (Arran Quay, Dublin) in the 1911 Census. She had a brother called Matthew who was 26 at that time, so he could be the man in the picture, who would then be in his mid 30s. :)
The O'Reilly brothers, Patrick and Stephen, lived in 3 Wellesley Place in 1911
Hi Auntie Nellie. I am sorry not to have replied sooner. I didn't notice your post. That's great. I managed to find Patrick under the name Reilly but his brother isn't there. He must have been elsewhere at the time of the census. I was looking under various names of places but Wesley Place and Wellesley Place didn't come up because it is down as Wellsley. Computers really help things sometimes but they can make searching difficult as even one letter out of place can be enough to throw the computer completely. Thanks for your help!
-
Hi,
I was just wondering if anyone had any information on my great grandfather Leo Duffy. margnip2 mentioned earlier that she had a picture, could you please send this onto me.
Thanks everyone.
-
Hi Roosterno1
I don't really have any information on your great grandfather. all I know is he shared a cell in Kilmainham Goal with my granddad. If you send me your email address I will send you the picture I have got, it's not very good as it is just a photo copy not a scan.
-
just to note that Roosterno1 will need 2 more posts before being able to fully access the PM system
-
Hi margnip2,
I'm only getting use to this site. Can you see pictures on this site? My great- grandfather was also in E Company 2nd Battalion and he was captured at the burning of the custom house. I was reading on another forum that he was executed this is not true, he died an old man at home by natural causes. I'm doing a lot of this research for my granddad and also myself as i find it fascinating.
Thanks,
Roosterno1
(*) Moderator Note: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy, to avoid spamming and other abuses. Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members need to make at least three postings before being able to access the PM facility. See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Hi Rooster your Granfather is on the arrest list his address is 9 back lane, cornmarket.John Wilson is on the list too, he has a prisoner number but no address ! there is no number for Leo .Seanod is the man you need to talk too.He is working on a book about the burning of the Custom House. I am sure if he has anything on your Granfather he will tell & would be greatfull for any information you can share with him .
Gary
-
Roosterno1
You may find you get more information if you start a new thread on Leo Duffy, as there is a lot in this Custom House thread.
For example I would be interested to know what he was doing on Bloody Sunday, but I do not want to gunge up a Custom House thread by diverting it
-
Hi folks, and particularly to Roosterno1. I'm interested in the information you have about Leo Duffy. I found a reference to the death of Leo Duffy by shooting in 1938 in one of the papers - he was shot on Sunday the 1st of January 1938, at 20 Charleville Road, Rathmines. He was shot by his brother Christopher Duffy, who had mental health problems. According to the obit he was in C Company, 3rd Battalion of the Dublin Brigade and was Vice President of the Old Dublin Brigade Association. Duffy is not an uncommon name and it's not impossible that I have got the wrong man but I am confused by the BMH List, (list of arrested at the time of Custom House attack) which gives his address as 9 Back Lane, Cornmarket, Dublin. In the 1911 census, he was at 9 Back Lane, Merchant’s Quay (obviously the same place) and he had a brother called Christopher who was then 20, Leo was 7. Their father was a carpenter from Dublin. Are you sure that the information you have been supplied with is accurate? People sometimes change these kind of details because of the stigma associated with mental illness.
-
Seanod same place, Cornmarket & Merchants Quay are a stones throw apart. BTW Sean I found a snippet on John Foy I will scan & email it to you over the next day or so.
Gary
-
Margnip2 - Thanks for sending me them pictures, i showed my granddad he was delighted, hope you got mine, if i get any more ill send them onto you.
Gary - Thanks. You are correct he did live in 9 back lane, cornmarket.
Corisande - Thanks for the idea i might start a new thread on Leo Duffy to see if i can get any more information.
Seanod - My granddad tells me that he did have a brother called Christopher and that their dad was a carpenter but they never lived in Rathmines and that Leo died at the age of 68 from cancer not natural causes which i thought he died off. He also tells me that he was in E Company, 2rd Battalion. I have a picture of him and two notes that he wrote in the autograph book that's in Kilmainham Gaol. Also my granddads brother (Leo also) brought in a picture to Kilmainham Gaol of a battalion (Not sure if its E Company, 2rd Battalion) but Leo is in it with a battalion of about 20 or so with there names on the bottom.
(Not sure if John Wilson is in the picture)
The man (Michael) from Kilmainham Gaol who we brought this picture into scanned it and i will try and get him to e-mail me a copy. There might be a few names you can put to faces.
Phil.
-
Rooster I would love to see that picture, I dont hold much hope for John Wilson being in it as he was transfared to Mountjoy at some stage.
Gary
-
Thanks Rooster I did get them, have emailed you.
So glad your Granddad was pleased with them.
I have been thinking about starting a thread on my Granddad as well.
-
Hi folks. So this Leo Duffy definitely isn't the same man. I'm really glad that we found that out before I went to print! If you have any more information on your relation - job, attitudes to the politicians etc. then I'd really like to hear them. All the best, Seanod.
-
I am no expert on these things but was the 2 nd battalion not a northside battalion ? Leo Duffy lived on the southside,The 4th Battalions HQ was only around the corner from him in Thomas St !
-
Hi,
I have a copy of his roll of honour 1916-23 paper (Kilmainham jail Restoration project, Historical committee) which stats that he was in E Company, 2rd Battalion. It also gives his DOB 21/05/1903, name and address which you know but not much more.
I will talk to my granddad and ask for as much information as possible i think he has forms that Leo filled in which stats his Battalion Sgt etc. Also i have requested a copy of the Battalion picture and when i get it i will forward it on
Phil.
-
Hi Phil, I am sure he was in the 2nd, I just meant it was strange as he did not live in the 2nd Battalion area ! always makes these things more interesting.Did Leo fight in the Civil war ? if he did it would be worth checking to see if the irish Army have a file on him ? I got John Wilsons daughter to apply for his records & it turned up tons of stuff including all his companys in the IRA & his actions. Also his Civil War record.
Gary
-
Gary- Thanks i will look into that and ask my granddad to apply for his records.
Seanod - I have tryed to attach a picture of Leo and the Battalion i was talking about but the picture is to big even when i winzip it. I can send it to you in an e-mail if you send me your e-mail address.
I cant see John Wilson or Phil Flynn in it.
-
Rooster try chopping the picture down a little, I did it before for someone here & managed to upload it.
Gary
-
Tryed chopping still to big.
If you send me your e-mail address ill send it to you and you can have a go.
-
I was trying you upload it in three sections, for some reason it wont work, give me a bit of time on it I am sure I can get it up some way.Fantastic picture BTW looks like an early picture of the Dublin Guard pre Civil War.
Gar
-
There's a free graphics tool named IrfanView that might assist in reducing the image size so you can upload it.
see : IrfanView (http://www.irfanview.com/)
I dont remember the max image file size allowed on RC (* see below), but It's probably best to try to keep the image width to a max of about 800 pixels or so - to fit peoples screens.
Shane
* edit : Maximum attachment image size allowed: 500 KB
(file types allowed : jpg, jpeg, gif, png).
-
Sorry to butt in but hope this works.
-
Great stuff I am on a break from work & was going to have another bash ! On John Wilsons funeral notice, a Capt Kerrigan & a Capt Ned Breslin are mentioned as mourners. I reckon Kerrigan is Lieut Kerrigan in the picture & Breslin is famous as the officier who tied the prisioners to the mine in Ballysheedy, also Breslin was caught with a round of live ammunition outside the Custom House & got a terrible hiding.
-
Found this on Facebook.
-
Hello,
I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about a Frank Brennan who was in Kilmainham, apparently as a result of the Customs House fire. In some of the Kilmainham autograph books there are a couple of little verses signed by Frank Brennan:
The reason we're here, is on the Customs House fire
When we were pinched together
We are doing our time in Cell twenty-nine
"Hard Luck" its such lovely weather
Frank Brennan & Frank Carberry
(6 July 1921)
On another autograph Frank Brennan and Frank Carberry signed it "the two Franks" and "the two inseparables". There is another attributed to Frank Brennan:
Now when you leave here
I trust you will think
Of the friends in Kilmainham you've made
And when in a "pub" the toast you should drink
Is, Good Health to the boys of the "Ould Fire Brigade"
Kilmainham sent me a photo of a group of prisoners that had been donated by Frank Carberry's son, and it had Frank Carberry marked, and sitting next to Frank Carberry is a man who is the spitting image of our Frank Brennan!!
So is there a list of persons arrested over the Customs House fire and is there a Frank Brennan on it? Frank was from the North Road, Finglas.
Would anyone know more about Frank Carberry either?
I'm new to this site, so dont really know the ins and outs of the protocol for replying to posts, however...., Frank Brennan was my grandfather and was indeed in kilmainham for his participation in the Custom House Fire.
The autograph books were kept by him after his release and later donated to kilmainham museum by my family. Several of these books were donated and are on display in kilmainham, some have little sketches in them.
He is in the photographs of the prisoners, I will try to identify him in them and repost if that is alright with the original poster.
-
Photos of prisoners reposted, showing who frank brennan is.
I have some other photos of prisoners in kilmainham that I will post up when I get them scanned, I also have photos of Frank Brennan revisiting Kilmainham. His Older brother Jimmy was also a prisoner there.
There is some mention of Jimmy in another thread here, in connection with his role in the dublin active service unit at the time of "the squad".
-
Hi Greymatter & Welcome to Rootschat, I wish I could find pictures like that of My Great Uncle, I must try Kilmainham again !.
-
It turns out that the Chris Flynn on that list is my grandadad! His name was Philip Christopher Flynn and so all my research has been done using the name Philip Flynn. It now seems I must also try and find info on Christopher or Chris Flynn, if anyone can help :-)
-
Hi Greymatter, sent you a PM.
C
-
I have just started a facebook group on the Burning of the Custom House, my plan is to get pictures of as many of the men who took part in the operation & post individual pictures of each man ( as many as I can get) so far I have just put up tom keogh,p odaly, bill stapleton etc,is it ok to use some of the pictures from here ? I dont want to annoy anyone by reposting there pictures.The group is set to private to stop any spam or politcal comments etc .Of course everyone is welcome to join.
Gary
-
My grandfather, Peter Gaffney and his older brother Thomas Gaffney, were both arrested and imprisoned for their part in the burning of the custom house. They were both from a Na Fianna Eireann background and I believe their father was a railway man out of Wexford and former IRB and IRA man. I believe he was also arrested on the job when he gave away his cover by ordering the civilians to lie low before they hit an ambush while the train was carrying troops. It was also told that Thomas was a runner in 1916 during the rising and was a first aider in the GPO. We have the combat medals at home for both, but none from the Easter rising. They lived in west Dublin but I know little else. They must have been highly trusted as many leaders of 1916 including Pearse used to come round to tea.
-
Moderator Note : Topic Split due to size - continues here : Custom House Burning - Part 2 (John Wilson) (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,525028.msg3797745.html#msg3797745)