RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: chris2705 on Tuesday 08 September 09 17:27 BST (UK)
-
Hi,
I am appealing to the more knowledgeable and experienced of you to help if possible, in trying to find some more information about my G,G, Grandfather William Henry Baker.
So far I have found the following:-
-He was living in Chinsurah, West Bengal (also known as Hooghly-Chinsurah with several spelling variations)
-He was married to Helena (I can't find any UK record of a maiden name, marriage or census entry)
-Their son, Philip Harold William (my G, Grandfather) was born on 25/12/1883 and christened in St. Bartholomew's Church, Barrackpore, Bengal on 15/01/1884
-William's profession on the baptism certificate of Philip, is shown as "Foreman, Hughli (Hooghly) Bridge Works" which would tie-in with the construction of the Hooghly Bridge (also known as the Jubilee Bridge) which was constructed between 1882 and 1887
-I can't find any passenger records in or out from the UK or Indian sides so I am keen to find out when they might have arrived or departed. Philip certainly left India, as he was married in Stoke on Trent in 1907
I have looked through the recomended online sites with little success and guess that the next stop will be a trip to the British Library.
Any help is greatly appreciated
Chris
-
Philip is living in Brooke st, Hanley in 1901 as a boarder age 17,apprentice engineer.....
I can't see anything else on him....
-
Thank you very much for taking the time to look at this. I had not found Philip in England before his wedding so this is another piece to add to the jigsaw
-
I took a look for a P Baker in the passenger lists, none of them fit..
-
I looked through the passenger lists as well, and even those listed as "child" or "infant" don't tally so I guess that the records must be incomplete as there is no other way Philip could have returned. I am surprised though that there is no record of William and Helena returning so maybe they remained and sent him back to England on his own?
-
Why did he land in Stoke on trent...
-
Hi
I have wondered "why Stoke on Trent" too. I have a hunch that William and Helena originate from the Stoke on Trent area. There are earlier census and marriage records for a William and Ellen Baker (maybe she was a bit of a snob and changed her name slightly when in India?) These would place W & H in Fenton. By co-incidence, Philip's wife (an Ethel May Sheppard) was also from Fenton and their first son, Reginald (my grandfather) was born there too.
If William and Helena were in India for a relatively short period then I would have thought it natural for them to return to their home area, or if Philip returned as a boy by himself then it could be to the care or local family or friends.
The mystery for me is whether W & H ever returned from India and what became of them as well as finding some conclusive evidence of their existence before India. There is a William Baker aged 16 on the 1861 census in Liverpool described as an apprentice engineer which might fit as well as the marriage of a William Baker and Ellen Newell in Fenton in 1868 but neither are stong enough to be conclusive.
Maybe passport applications might throw something up, otherwise I guess it is the British Library that is most likely to hold some information....
-
http://web.archive.org/web/20070806122018/http://users.rootsweb.com/%7Eindwgw/Bengal/Bengal_Marriage.htm
I was hoping they were on here!!!.....Nearest match for a Wiliam H Baker is to a Mary C Wilson 1882.... ???
-
They seem very elusive William and Helena! I can't find them on either 1891, 1901 nor 1911 census where I imagined they would have appeared if they returned. With the lack of any passenger arrivals in England for them, maybe they stayed in India and sent Philip back by himself? We think he was an only child. Although given there is no actual record of Philip's known return to England either, this is not very strong evidence.....
I have looked at the comapny that built the Hooghly Bridge which was Gateshead based, called Hawks Crawshay & Sons but they stopped trading in 1889, just two years after the bridge was opened. I wonder if William was still there and if so, what happened with the company closure?
-
An iffy entry,but, still I'll post it......
BT26/43/item 1.
A Mr and Mrs Baker sailiing from Bombay to England arrived 27th May 1893.
Mrs born abt 1845,Mr born abt 1847......
Chris let me know how you go on at the Library....
-
Hi
I hadn't seen that one. I don't have any idea of ages or dates for William and Helena so it is a possibility. The main thing that says not to me is that the departure is from Bombay rather than Calcutta which would have been their nearest port. Not impossible though. As soon as I find anything at the museum I will let you know
All the best
-
Hi Chris, look at the IGI, Philip had one brother and two sisters.
Laura Florence 1881
Mabel Irene Franziska 1886
Frederick Clarence Scindia1894
These three also born in Bengal. Perhaps you can find them on Passenger Lists.
Val
-
Hi Val,
This sounds exciting! As I am a complete novice at this can you please tell me what an IGI is?
Chris
-
I saw Philip on the IGI but,not the others
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Search/frameset_search.asp
Go to the international Genealogy index,put in Philip Baker India 1883 (appropiate boxes).
-
Thanks for the IGI pointer.
I have found the other siblings and they do fit. One thing that is interesting is the slightly unusual names. A quick look shows that "Franziska" is a German name and Helena the mother never seems to crop up in England so maybe she was German which might explain the lack of earlier English records.
There is a passenger record for a Frederick C coming to the UK on what seems like a business trip in 1925 but none for the girls. Given the previous lack of passenger records my bet would be that William, Helena and the girls stayed in India.
-
Getting there slowly :D
-
I think much would be revealed if I can get my hands on a birth certificate for one of them.....
-
Ive had another look on the two India sites I know of.......Nothing.
-
1901 census Bedfordshire,in the Family of Katherine Freeman.RG13/1488/119/page 28.
Mabel I F Baker (transcribed as Mabel J F Baker )boarder, age 14 born in India, British subject...*it looks like an I to me.
-
Is this Frederick.......BT26/794/item 171.
Frederick C Baker born abt 1894 India. Arriving England 15 April 1925 from Bombay..?
-
Looking at the passenger record for Frederick he appears to be working for the Indian Police and going to visit Grindalys Bank (curious). The British Library looks as if it will have records of Police and so I think this will be another thing to look up there.
It puzzles me why two of the children now look to have been returned to England as they are on the 1901 census as boarders (at other ends of the country) at the ages of just 14 and 16.
-
Maybe their Father was shipped off to work somewhere else ,in another Country..
-
Katherine Freeman's late Husband, Charles Frederic was a solicitor,perhaps William had a business friendship with with him...
-
It is certainly possible, the ages would be similar I imagine. I wonder how common it would have been to send a child back to England from India unless it was to go to school? If Mabel was shown as a "scholar" then it might be less surprising, but she is simply listed as a "boarder"when aged only 14. Is this significant or unusual?
-
I don't know,wasn't school leaving age 14?
Harriet Macmillan's late husband was a gas engineer,they travelled around a lot,two children born in Peru (Lima) one in Ireland,does this lead to them knowing William Baker,I don't know.......
Where is Laura Florence in 1901?
Can you have a look at the 1911 to see where Mabel is?
-
BINGO!!
In 1911 Helena (aged 47, born in Singapore) is shown as a widow living in Bedford with Laura Florence, Frederick and a previously unknown sibling, a son, Cedric Stansmore Baker, born in 1898 in Bedford, England.
I can't find an English death record for William Henry, so my guess is that he died in India before Cedric was born (timing seems very unfortunate or maybe there is some gossip there) or that they all returned and I simply have not found his English death record.
-
ARRGGGH!!
This is frustrating! Now they all seem to vanish. I can't find any marriage or death records anywhere for the five children or Helena. I am curious though about her, she had her first child at 17 so probably married at 16 I wonder what the story was?
I would love to find William and Henry's marriage certificate.......
-
Bravo and Hurrah.....I'll have a nosy...
-
Where are they in the 1901???????
-
I have found the record of Cedric's birth in 1897 and ordered a copy of the certificate which should now throw some light on his father at last.
-
The Baker's are on the move again..........
edric Stansmore leaving Bombay ,arriving London 1931......Indian army.
-
Thank you so much for turning up these finds. These Baker's are not making this easy! So we have Cedric travelling from Bombay to England in 1931, Frederick going from Bombay to England in 1925 maybe some or all of them decided to return to India?
I have been trying to find some record of the siblings in England after the 1911 census but cant find a single record for any of them ???
-
I found a bit more about Cedric. He enrolled in the Military Academy in Saugor (India) in 1916 and was attached to the 5th Gurkha Rifles (Frontier Force) in 1917. In 1919 they fought in the 3rd Afgan War and were in the 2nd Infantry Brigade, at first under Brig-Gen Thelwell and then under Brig-Gen Baker. Now that would have been a fairly rapid promotion by any standards so maybe there was a bit of nepotism going on and an uncle or other relative was there?
-
Well done Chris,
I wonder why Helena and children gravitated to Bedford, is that significant? Were they near Katherine Freeman,?
-
It looks as if the whole family returned to Bedford between 1894 and 1897 (but strange that there seems to be no 1901 census record). After this time, Cedric is born in Bedford in 1898 and by 1911 William has died. By 1916 we know that Cedric has gone to India to join the Indian Army (seems a long way to go and "do your duty" rather than pop down the road to the local recruiting office) My hunch is that there was an uncle or other family connection still in India. There are a number of Bakers that pop up in the regiments history. Also at some point Frederick has returned to India as well.
Mabel's address on the 1901 census (the Freeman's) is only about 1/4 mile from the address on the 1911 census so there must be some link I believe, but it is still a bit of a mystery as to why Mabel would be staying by herself. It could be that the others went off somewhere in the meantime and left her temporarily in the care of some friends?
-
Looks like they went en masse back to India before 1901 leaving Mabel here..Oh well,back to the hunt..... ;D
-
Well I am 99% that Philip never returned (maybe he and Mabel weren't so keen on India?) but seeing as mum as a widow, and 4 of the children are here in 1911 (Mabel has gone AWOL) I am not sure that they returned but it is all a bit of a guess.
I think I might have found William's brother though..........
Here is Helena in India
-
Blimey,we better not mess with this lady ;D
Who's William's brother,tell all.
I can't believe that we can't find any parish records for the children in India!!!!!
-
I can't think where to look next,Ive Googled Bengal to Bedford China to Germany,we need helllllllllllllllllllp ???
-
She looks bloody scary to me!!!
Well it is a bit of a longshot to say the least, but I have found a list that someone has compiled (perhaps it could be added to the resource/links if it is not there already) of those born in India but appearing on the England/Wales census from 1841-1871
http://spuddybike.org.uk/familyhistory/census/index.html
There is a Frederick Baker born in 1856 in Calcutta but staying here in 1861. Might be pure coincidence but worth a shot........
-
LOL,I thought that but was being polite........It is worth putting on the resource board.
When you stick Baker in Ancestry, born India there are millions of them ,well a couple of hundred, census,passenger lists the whole shebang,but not yours ::) yours are pootling about elsewhere.. ???
How old would you say Helena is in the photo,is it one from the 1880s or ,is it later?
By the way if you put it on the restoration board they'd get rid of the creases
-
Thankfully the Baker genes seem to have prevailed ;)
According to the 1911 census she was born around 1864 so presumably married at 16 as Laura is born when she was 17. I think William must have been brave/drunk/unlucky as I don't imagine it was for her charming disposition. They have left India by 1897 so in the photo must have been between 17 and 33 (crickey!)
-
I think William was already there in India as he would have struggled to meet, marry, travel by ship to India (the long way round) and have a child all by the time Helena was 17. Helena was a British subject born in Singapore, so probably the daughter of another engineer/military or whatever else the British were doing there. Maybe Stansmore was her maiden name or that of Willaim's mother?
-
http://www.search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_detail.php?id=638337
This shows William Erskine Baker is a civil engineer,he did somethging at Scindia/Scindie? waqsn't that Fredericks middle name?
http://www.search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_browse_sources.php?mode=browse_components&id=120&s_id=0
This a photo of Railway workers,one is named Baker,1910........Am I clutching at straws now...
-
??? I don't think it is either of these as the first is a General (I reckon someone in the family would have had some recollection/evidence if we had one of those) and the other I think is wrong time/place/job. I will take a trip to the British Library tomorrow as this is now getting frustrating.
We can look at the other Stoke family connection after that!
-
Thank goodness back in Stoke......And hopefully better luck..
-
Managed to find out some more about Cedric and his siblings at the British Library. Cedric went to Wellington College and then to India in 1916 where he becomes an officer in the Gurhkas. He fights for two years in WWI in Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) where he was wounded, then in two wars in Afghanistan in 1919 and 1930. He retires from the army and returns to England in 1934 to take up teaching. He marries in 1938 and has a daughter in 1939. With the outbreak of WWII he is recalled to his old regiment in India and then on to Egypt in 1940. He is sent back to India where he spends the rest of the war (as he is still highly thought of by his superiors) in a training capacity. After the war he returns to his family and resumes his second career as a teacher. He lived to the ripe old age of 89 passing away in 1986. What I find sad is that he appears to be both sensitive and brave and must have been full of fascinating stories, yet lived and died only 20 miles from me and no one in my family even knew of his existence before the start of this forum post......
-
Hi Chris,
what a shame....If only ???...
Anything on the other's?
-
Hi
I did also find out more about the siblings as Cedric's army papers listed next of kin and gives addresses for them. His eldest sister Laura appears never to have married as she is described as "Miss" in any reference up to when she would have been in he 50's. His sister Mabel becomes Mrs. Lilley with an address in Bournemouth (but I can't find any further records for her). Frederick is described as "Superintendant of Police" Indore State, India though I can't find any records of him in England after when I think he returned. The big mystery though still remains in uncovering more about William and Helena and I have not really got any further with those two. What I did find out though, is that the address on Cedric's return to England was that of his mother who was still alive in the 1930's in Sussex though I can't find a record of her death. I am waiting for a copy of Cedric's birth certificate which will hopefully provide more info and I know that his army application file is held among the LDS records which will no doubt have family details. What I would like to find out is if there is a link to Cedric and the other Baker's in his Gurkha regiment as there has always been a tradition in the army of family following into regiments.
It looks as if Stoke will have to wait a while longer!
-
Ah the enigmatic Helena,I'd love to know more about her. :)
-
Are theses way off beam....
1932 in Steyning Helena B Baker age 73
1936 in Worthing Helena Baker age 72.
-
The second one fits...1n 1911 she was 47..
-
Hi
They are both distinct possibilities. She was living nearby (Steyning and Worthing are only a few miles apart). Also, one entry in Cedric's army record shows her as Mrs H.B. Baker. I have chased up Cedric's birth certificate and it turns out that the website that I had ordered it from have sent it "standard delivery/16 working days" even though I had ordered and paid for the express delivery so we are going to have to wait until this Friday to see what that reveals. Luckily Sussex archives (co-incidently where Cedric died) send out their copies of death certificates within a couple of days for £7.00 which seems very reasonable
-
Well spotted!
-
As a matter of interest, which site are you looking on? When I put the same information into the one I have been using I get nothing....
-
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
-
That's the first time a middle name has been mentioned (Cedrics army papers) I wonder whether it help track her down.
-
I was being a complete wally and not looking at the fact that the names quoted are the first and last on the page and not that there are only two people in each quarter that match......it's been a long day. I have found it now
-
Ive put Helena B into the IGI search box for India,China,Malaysia, Hong kong,Indonesia.Nothing comes for her birth year ???
-
Well there is some new information from Cedric's birth and death certificates; Helena's maiden name was Bourke which seems generally to be an Irish derived name from what I have read. I can't find anything for a Helena Bourke, born in Singapore around 1864 but I will post something under "Singapore" and see if I have any luck there.
I also have found more info about Cedric's daughter, including a recent address but as her and her husband are likely to still be alive I will leave them off the public forum now, though I would love to get in touch with her.
-
Go for it Chris, and well done ;D
-
Are you in touch with Cadoganpier, Chris?
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=409172.msg2765921;topicseen
and
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,407139.msg2750769.html#msg2750769
-
Yippee,
I got all excited an hour ago,then couldn't get on Rootschat......
What do think of this?
1871 census for Woolwich,Royal artillery cottage.
Patrick Bourke head married age 36 corporal RA born Ireland
Maria wife age 34 born Ireland
William son age 12 born straits of Malacca
Helena daughter age 7 born straits of Malacca.
Sarah dau' age 2 born Cape of good hope
Kate dau' age 5 mths born Ireland.
RG10/775//43/page 16.
This may be him!! 1861...RG9/552/page 6.
IGI extracted entry,I'm not sure but I'll post it.
Patrick Bourke marriage to Maria Mangan,Roscommon 1857!!
-
Are you in touch with Cadoganpier, Chris?
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=409172.msg2765921;topicseen
and
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,407139.msg2750769.html#msg2750769
Hi Shaun,
Yes, very much in touch with Cadoganpier as he is my brother and was given the job of finding out a bit more on the military side, but we will try to keep the info on this thread as we seem to have covered that side now and back onto the original topic.
All the best,
Chris
-
Yippee,
I got all excited an hour ago,then couldn't get on Rootschat......
What do think of this?
1871 census for Woolwich,Royal artillery cottage.
Patrick Bourke head married age 36 corporal RA born Ireland
Maria wife age 34 born Ireland
William son age 12 born straits of Malacca
Helena daughter age 7 born straits of Malacca.
Sarah dau' age 2 born Cape of good hope
Kate dau' age 5 mths born Ireland.
RG10/775//43/page 16.
This may be him!! 1861...RG9/552/page 6.
IGI extracted entry,I'm not sure but I'll post it.
Patrick Bourke marriage to Maria Mangan,Roscommon 1857!!
You are a star!
I can't see how this could not be our Helena as the Mallacan Strait is the stretch of water between Singapore and Malaysia and all the dates tally. So, now to Ireland (especially to see if the IGI entry can be backed up) and also I guess to try to see if Patrick and the family were in India coinciding with William (who, despite finding out masses of information about loads of other new ancestors, still remains as elusive as he was since the first post!)
Thanks again, could not have come this far without your input
-
Hi Chris,
loved doing it :) and can't wait to get further but, Ireland ??? ???
-
I can't see the Bourkes in India...And thinking about it, there may be more children after Kate..
-
My brother has got a bit further with Frederick on this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,409172.0.html
(Should all the threads be pulled onto this main one as there are 4 on the go now, not sure of the board rules or etiquette?)
There is a Patrick Bourke in London on the 1851 census which fits, but not convincing enough yet to say for sure. The Royal Artillery records are at Kew so looks like another trip to London at some point.
-
Nice one Chris....
Off you go to Kew then ;D
We've trawled the India sites over and over,why aren't the Bakers and Bourke's there!!
At least you know it looked like Grandad Patrick who started this Army tradition off..
Is the 1851 a soldier? Don't forget to put Bourke in your list of names,you never know someone may be connected..
-
The 1851 record shows a 16 year old labourer born in Wicklow living with his three younger sisters, his widowed mother ( a char woman) in a slum area in the East End of London. Seems a long way from our dashing cavalry officers in India but has every reason to join up as a way to improve his lot. I guess the RA records would show who he was.
-
Ooooh,it's exciting isn't it?
-
IGI has a submitted entry for a Patrick Burke born 1835 Waterford,Waterford is what you meant I think....Anyway we can't count on the entry..
-
And I have had an email this morning from Canada from someone that has found another wanderer in the family! The tree is beginning to look like a map of the United Nations! Unfortunately I have got to do some work now just as things get going again...
-
A bit inconclusive...1849 death in St George in the east Michael Bourke.
-
Following on from your 1851.
Merthyr tidfil 1841. HO107/1415/book 8.
The original is atrocious for reading.
Margaret Dam? age 60
John Dion age 25
John Burke age 25 can't read what his job is,
Mary Burke age 20
Patrick Burke age 6
Anne Burke age 4.If you remember Rachel was born in south Wales.
-
The 1841/51/71 would appear to all tie in, in so far as Patrick Bourke and family have same birth dates, and family members have same places of birth. The odd bit is in the 1841 in that his Mother (?) Mary appears to be 20 years old meaning that Patrick was born to her at 14 years old! Given the state of the original record it could be that it should read 26 instead?
It would appear that John and Mary Bourke(Burke) left Ireland around 1836 to go to Wales with 1-year old Patrick and then having Anne shortly after arriving in Wales.
My assumption would be that unless John had a fabulous baratone singing voice, he went to Merthyr to work in the Ironworks or mines there. The birth certificate of his daughter Anne would tell us more and hopefully confirm Mary's maiden name.
By 1851 John and daughter Anne have died/gone (looking at some history sites for Merthyr it seems to have been both a dangerous place to work and disease ridden). The family then go to London. What is interesting is that there are Ellen and Mary born in London, so what happened to John Bourke? Also Mary's age seems to now be correct in this census as it suggests that she was indeed 26 when in Wales and not 20 as originally transcribed.
I can't find any of them for sure on the 1861 so I would guess that Mary has remarried, died or gone back to Ireland.
The plot thickens...........
-
ROFL, (fabulous baritone singing voice )that's tickled me ;D ;D.
Right let me get my head in gear.....If I remember right, the street iwhere they lived in London was choc a bloc with Irish names,she could have moved there to be near relatives.
-
The only birth that I can find listed is for Mary Bourke in 1849 ( have ordered a certificate) now looking for deaths (what fun!). No one in the family can sing a note so no early Tom Jones wannabees
-
Mary appears to be 20 years old
Don't forget that ages were rounded down in the 1841 census
-
It's a conudrum.... Johns death,we have two children born in London from 1846 to 1849, Mary's down as a widow so where is John?
-
Looking at the 18941 again,I think John was a miner...Margaret Dam looks more like Dixon and so does John Dion,could they be relatives..Margaret looks like she makes her living by begging!!!
-
Glamorgan is on FreeBMD but I can't see any births and deaths for your lot..
-
I saw the begging reference as well. I can't make out any address so wonder if it was some sort of communal housing (nice way of saying work-house)?
On the 1841 Mary is shown as being born in Ireland, on 1851 she is shown as being born in London. All the other details seem to fit though.....
I suppose that it is entirely plausible that she could have had 2 children without John (the scandal!) but there are all sorts of possibilities between around 1848-50 that could explain his absence (death, jail, war, divorce?) The only John Bourkes that I can find dying around the dates are in Chichester and Manchester
-
It such a common name......If it was a work house there'd be more inmates,I think they boarding with her,whether she's a relative I don't know,we may find out later. ::)
-
something to mull over.death of john bourke 1856in newport m galamorgan..
-
http://www.merthyr.gov.uk/Home/Leisure+and+Tourism/Libraries/History/Parish+records.htm
1839 only one !!
-
Chris do you know how to post that address ?
-
Not too sure what you mean, sorry for being a bit thick
-
That little snippet on the 1841,someone may be able to decipher it...
-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,411284.msg2782811.html#msg2782811
Chris, the address with a lot help from Jenjen and Parmesan.
-
More coincidences......Crawshay is a big name in Merthyr tidfil...
-
Do you think someone would know where Patrick's regiment was in 1881?
-
http://www.garenewing.co.uk/angloafghanwar/waroffice/regiments.php
Would Patrick have been with this lot?
-
It is a possibility as Patrick was in the Royal Artillery however it was, and is, a large regiment and would have been spread about. I have a friend who is ex-RA and who is eligible to join the RA Historical Society but in all likelihood it will be a case of going to Kew and looking for Patrick's army record. From my experience of looking at Cedric's army record, they contain quite a lot of information about postings as well as next of kin, so it might well shed some light on what he got up to and some additional family info.
-
We've hit a brick wall with the Bourke's fot the minute,so where next
-
There is still plenty left to find out about William and Helena's children. Philip and Cedric are now pretty well done, but there is only early information of Frederick and very little about the Laura and Mabel.
I think that the best source of information for William and Helena is going to be in the army officer applications for Ced and Fred as this would have fairly thorough information regarding background and parentage. I know that Ced's is on file with the LDS but I have never tried to access anything from them.
-
We have a little bit on Fred but,Laura and Mabel are very elusive..... ???
-
edited
-
I think I may have Helena
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0793/
-
What have you got? I have got an ancestry.co.uk sub but your link asks me for a .com subscription. Am I doing something wrong?
-
Oh B*****
incoming passenger lists.
-
Long shot this one......
The house in England where Helena ended her days down in Sussex was called "Malora". A hunt through Google shows a town in modern Afghanistan called Malora. The only other references on Google being the Italian word for "nun" which seems a bit far fetched. So, could it be that this is where Helena lived at some point?
With the amount of border and name changes that have gone on over the last 100+ years around this area, could it be that this town was where she spent some time either with her parents or later with William?
Is there an Afghanistan board on Rootschat?????
-
I don't think so.................I'll have nosy.
-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,84254.msg353442.html#msg353442
Do you think this Rootschatter may help?
-
I should have used the "wink" smiley as there was a touch of irony there, and as we have been just about everywhere else! The question though is where would that town have been listed under at the time as it seems that the areas that my lot seem to have been you could be in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Burma, Bangladesh, Myanmar and probably a few other derivations as well.
Is there a good place to look up a place names and their modern equivalent or vice versa?
-
Oh right ;)
Chris,I don't know where to look for those place's ,we'll have to see if you can find anything at kew..we won't find them on a census ...
-
I have posted something on your suggestion on the "2nd Afghan War thread" so hopefully something comes of that, otherwise it is Kew/British Library again as you say. We might get back to Stoke one day!
-
Oh I hope so,I really hope so ;D
-
Been hunting around the Bourke's while trying to find the time to go the the British Library to see if I can find the Indian link. So far all I have found is that Helena's younger sister Kate, appears to have emigrated to America and went to Chicago
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,413699.0.html
-
Some news on the Baker front.....
I had a reply from Cedric's old school in Bedford who have kindly looked through their records and among other things, confirmed that his previous school was Mistress Phillips Private School, Mussoorie, N India. (can't find a trace of it anywhere) So the family did return to India after Cedric's birth in 1897 and this would explain their absence from the 1901 census. The school also said that his father, William had already died by the time Cedric started in May 1909.
May is a bit of an odd time to start a new school so I guess that he started school straight after returning from India. If you had children needing to start new schools I would have thought that you would return to fit in, as far as possible, with new school years (September) unless the return was unexpected.....
-
Well done Chris,
keep digging, you're doing wonders... :o ;D
-
It's exhausting! I am on my 12th country (so far) with this lot, and I haven't started on my mum's side yet and she is Dutch. My parents have been over and left me with a pile of old photos and albums now that I am officially the family genealogist, so off to PC World to buy a new scanner ???
Lots of fun though! ;D
-
;D ;D ;D
-
Lots on Mussoorie schools but can't see Miss Phillips,it probabily still there under a new name...
-
There seem to be quite a few schools there, including one linked to the Railway Co. but I could not find his. I guess it is likely to have been a prep school as he left when he was no more then 11 years old. If he was a boarder then his parents could have been miles away or otherwise they were living and working in the area.
I can't find anything on the passenger lists either for them leaving the UK after 1897or returning by May 1909.
-
Do we have any idea when William Baker was born?
-
No idea so far
-
I can't see Siddall or Baker in the 81 or 91........Do you remember saying there was a William Baker age 16 in Liverpool,engineer,your William baker in the Fenton indenture..... his birth place is Lancashire....
-
By the way, Helena looks lovely as your Avatar. ;D ;D
-
I am going to get my new scanner tonight so I can have lots of fun putting different ones on there!
I think that the only place that we are going to find William is in the Indian records as I believe that he married there, worked there and in all likelihood died there
-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,30580.0.html
http://www.fibis.org/
http://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/
Ive looked and looked Chris...Zilch.
-
me too ??? It is going to be a case of spending some time hunting in the British Library I think
-
Please hurry up I'm on tenter hooks ;) then we can go back to find his family...
-
IGI....William Baker all events,Asia,India, brings up loads...
-
I am going through them...
I think he is likely to have been born 1845-1855 ish.
-He married c.1880 and had his first child in Jan 1881 in Jeypore
-By 1883 his job is "foreman" which would suggest that he would have had to work for a few years previously, so unlikely to have been much below 30 by then.
-In 1897 he was listed on Cedric's birth certificate as a Civil Engineer and was probably still working as it is it would say "retired" if that was the case. This suggests that in 1897 he is likely to be in his 50's as he went back to India presumably to work. I can't imagine he would fancy a new work challenge in his 60's that involved going back there.
This is about as much as we know but as the first child was born when Helena was 17 and she could not have married below 16 the marriage could well have occurred in Jeypore
-
Glad you've done a recap.....I was getting lost.
There is also a multitude of Bakers born ,married and died in India.
If he was born there we could be looking at his relatives and not know it. ???
-
From the ones on the IGI there would seem to be two likely candidates:
William Henry Baker b. 06/04/1858 Rangoon to John & ELiza
William Henry Baker b. 22/05/1857 ?? to William & Sarah
Still negotiating with mangement to see when I can get a pass for a day at the British Library....
-
Your Family is like a geography lesson.....Off to Rangoon now. ::)
-
IGI Marriage 1857 in Bengal.....John Baker to Eliza Sturgeon.!!! we could have a look for them,I wish you had a different Surname....
-
The geography is just as fun on my mum's side (Germany, Holland, France, Spain, Canada, USA) makes it great for cheap holidays! ;D
-
Oh nooooooooooooo. :o
-
http://www.search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/simplesearchsummarycat.php?s_id=196&sn=sturgeon&fn=eliza&f=&to=&t=&c=&searchtype=0&tn=2
looks like she married twice.
-
My initial thought is that it looks as if she divorced. I would have said that if she was widowed she would have married with the name "Baker"
Nothing nice and simple ???
-
Not with your lot ;D ;D
-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/advanced-search.aspx?tab=1
Have you ever looked at this?
-
Also, they seem to manage to travel in and out without being noticed. A record of Helena leaving England after 1897 and then returning to England (with at least Cedric) should show up some where prior to 1909.
There is no evidence though that William even came back to England. Just because Ced was born here in 1897 does not rule out the possibility that Helena travelled back from India to have the baby (more guessing ???).
And where did the two sisters Mabel and Laura go? They vanish as well
-
Recap needed Chris..
Births of Laura and Mabel.....Ive cleared all my notes off the PC desk.
-
Daughters of William & Helena:
Laura Florence Baker b. 12 Jan 1881 India. She is not on the 1901 census, so I think travelled back to India at the same time as mum and Cedric. Shows up on the English 1911 census aged 30, single living with mum, Helena in Bedford. In 1932 she is still "Miss LF Baker" on Cedric's army record, living in Sutton, Surrey.
Mabel Irene Franziska Baker b. 30 Nov 1886 India. She is on the 1901 census, left behind with the neighbours in Bedford. Can't find her in 1911. In 1923 she is described as "Mrs M Lilley" living in Bournemouth
-
Did you find a marriage for Mabel?
-
Nope. Do you think though that as it might have taken place during WWI that it could be recorded as a military marriage or would these also still appear in the usual records?
-
It should be in the usual records.How do you know it's her?
Ive trawled the India sites for a Lilley,there are some but none Marrying Mabel...
-
In Cedric's army record there is a note written in 1923 that one of his next of kin was "Mrs M Lilley, sister" I don't think that Mabel went back to India as she and her older brother Philip appear on the 1901 census staying in England.
The rest of the family are back by 1909 when Cedric starts school in Bedford. Her father William has died by then, and Helena does not appear to ever return to India once widowed.
What is odd is that there is no marriage/divorce or children for her even though I think that there is a descendant.
I think that Laura remains a spinster and does not travel far, but I can't find a death record
-
A possibility is Mabel married after 1901 to someone,he died and she married again to a Mr Lilley..
-
We need an electoral roll look up.
-
How do we do that?
Also, I found an old thread on GenesReunited for someone looking for William Henry Baker (the one born in 1857) "William Baker b 1825 Tipton Staffordshire. Engineer (Royal Navy) although this isn't confirmed. in 1861 it states he's a Engineer Royal Navy, He did sail onboard the Bernese which sunk (written on christening record of son) His son William Henry Baker born in Bombay East Indies on 22nd May 1857 and was christened on 26 March 1859
and...."Cornelius Baker believed to be in the Gurkha regiment born approx 1802.
His son William Baker b 1826 believed to be in the Royal Navy went to the East Indies where his son also named
William Baker was born approx 1858 -
All originally from tipton Stafford"
And another post from the same person....
"His name was William Baker, and the 'son' was William Henry Baker.
I have traced the Baker line back to 1763 all born in England, except for William Henry Baker. I am trying to find out whether this son was his illigitimate child or an 'adopted' child. My gt grandfather was the brother of William Henry Baker, he is also a 'suspect' child. In that his birth was registered in England in 1860, but on 1 census it states he was born 'Sea' which means either at sea or overseas. Plus both of these boys had the features and colouring of Indian origin. As far as I can tell their sister's ancestors were all of English origin.
Their father was back in England by 1871 and remained here for the rest of hs life as did his family.
I understand that some went out their to work and I first thought he had something to do with the Train Company as he was an Engineer, but now I'm not so sure. I was wondering if the family had some family connection to India, hence why he was in the Indian Navy rather than the Royal Navy. "
-
WOW.......so the IGI with William H born 1857,Parents William Sarah could be that boy.
I'm not sure, all I know is people do lookups if they were on Ancestry we could look for them but, I don't think they are....Perhaps the request should go on the Sussex board...
-
IGI William born 1825 Tipton parents Cornelius and Elizabeth.....Cornelius married Elizabeth Smith 1822 West Bromwich.
-
1841 census West Bromwich...Ho107/978/book 7
Cornelius born 1801 engineer.
-
I have heard back from the lady who posted the info on GenesReunited. Until we can confirm the birth/parents of my WHB it is impossible to say for sure if there is a connection. I really need to get over to the British Library!
-
Get thee to the library......tooooooooo many Bakers to be sure of anything..
-
There is nothing else for it, I am off there now, will report back later this afternoon....
-
Go, go, now..... ;D
-
Well I only had a limited amount of time so I did not manage to find anything concrete. The most interesting thing I found was the death record for the William Henry Baker born in 1857 to William & Sarah.
I states that he was former "Chief Supt. GL Railway" and that his father William had been "Chief Engineer R & O Co." The place of death appears to be "Morar". The interesting bit is the date, 29 Jan 1909 which would fit with Cedric having to start school in England in May 1909. Still not conclusive though.....
I also found the baptism records for the daughters Laura and Mabel, which confirm WHB and Helena as parents and his profession as an engineer but not much else.
-
The Holy Grail though is going to be finding a record of WHB's marriage to Helena which I could not find in the records for Bengal, Madras, Bombay, Ecclesiastical returns, or registrar records.
I am beginning to suspect that something fishy might have gone on, as Helena's first child was born in January 1881 and Helena was born in the first quarter 1864. Doing some simple maths shows that she would only have been a few weeks past her 16th birthday when..........
I suppose she could have married under-age, married as soon as she was 16, or married very quickly after getting a bit of a shock!
-
Oooooh the dirty dog ;D
So perhaps they didn't marry.
It looks like William never set foot in England.
Where do go from here?
We've trawled the Passenger list.
-
No other baptisms in Bombay for William and Sarah,but they must have had other children, we need to find them.
-
1851 census Tipton.
William head age 25 born Tipton Engineer
Sarah wife age 23
John son age 2
Cornelius son age 7 mths........HO107/2029/680/page 65.Can't see them in the '61,so in India,unless Ive missed them,if not it looks like the right family...
-
Oooooh the dirty dog ;D
So perhaps they didn't marry.
It looks like William never set foot in England.
Where do go from here?
We've trawled the Passenger list.
I reckon that they must have married at some point otherwise she and the children would have had a nightmare getting passports, baptized, into schools, pensions, inheritance etc. Perhaps we should give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they must have just been very keen (and quick!)
-
Baker is such a common name,you've seen how many there are in India.....they must have gone back and forth quite a bit...Why can't we find a marriage .....
-
Apparently only a small percentage of the India Office records are online, so I think that the answers are going to be found you know where.
How about Helena's daughter in law? She was born in Fenton and was one of 11 siblings, I reckon that could throw up a few new relatives....
-
He he...... ;D luvvly jubbly.
By the way who's he on the left?
-
Well I was getting fed up with Helena (I know how the deer feels now).
He is a g,g,grandfather called Stephen Laming. He was a Trinity Pilot from Dover who would guide ships through the Goodwin Sands. Thankfully he is on one of the easier lines as they all were from the same area and link with a couple of other people's trees on Ancestry. I have got his line back to 1726 (not that I can take the credit)
-
Ah well we all have a brickwall ;D
-
Well there is always Fenton!
-
Hurray, lets go to Fenton.......
-
Before we rush to Fenton, I have heard back from the school where Frederick and Cedric went. They have confirmed that their father WHB died between 1908 and May 1909 which fits with the WHB born in 1857 to William and Sarah. I have invited the lady that has been looking for him on GenesReunited to this thread to compare notes (and to probably make this the longest thread in rootschat history!)
The school also told me that Frederick achieved some notable successes, including the highest score in the entrance exam for Sandhurst in 1913 and was mentioned in dispatches in 1919. Sadly, he died in 1927 aged 32 while in hospital undergoing an operation. It looks as if from the five children of WHB mine is the only surviving line
-
That's sad about Frederick.......I'm really chuffed you got further back,now you know the Bakers from Tipton are yours.
Are you going to follow WH's siblings?
I do hope the lady joins RootsChat,then she can see all info' you've found..
-
It would seem as if it is the same WHB but there is an interesting twist which I hope that Lou will elaborate on. I really would like to see something conclusive though before being 100% sure. I have been emailing Lou and she has said that she will come and have a look at this thread.
-
Got me juices going now.. ;D
-
HI, Lou here,
It is getting very interesting, and I am keeping my fingers crossed. There are so many co-incidence's but at this moment in time that's all they are.
If we could find when my WHB went to India that would help move us closer or find if he had a will.
Is there anyone out there that could help us please?
-
Hi Lou ,
welcome to RootsChat and particularly to this board..... :)
-
Hi,
Finally finding my way around the boards.
Just been doing more research and just discovered that the info I've found for Chris, you've already done it. You are correct re William and Sarah etc.
I am getting more positive each time I read through the co-incidences.
Thanks for your help, it's been great and without it Chris might never have contacted me.
I've never really used this site as I always found it difficult to find things. I suppose that's down to my being impatient and not the site. So apologies if I don't answer the thread as often as I should.
-
Way up at the top of the page is says ,"show new replies to your posts" click on that . ;)
-
Aahh!
Thanks for that.
-
This thread has being going on soooo long,I have to sit and think where we are up to, and do I have them all straight in my mind..
-
Lou,
can you fill me on William Henry's siblings....?
-
William Henry had 6 siblings and I've traced them all except for the wonderfull, facinating and exhaustingly elusive William Henry Baker.
He has been my biggest headache on my Baker line. He just seemed to vanish off the face of the earth. I did think he'd emigrated and did wonder about India but didn't have the means to track him down, so spent all my time & dosh on his siblings trying to find a living direct male line.
Fortunatley I found a few living lines, but unfortunatley some were female lines, some male lines ended and the one direct male line still living - there's a bit of a sensitive situation. So communication with them has ended for the time being.
I have evidence to back up all what I have found on my Baker line. Sadly William H Baker's father died in a workhouse. I haven't found why he was there when his wife was alive and living with their daughter. But he was there for at least 8 years. So I can only presume he was there in the hospital section.
-
So there were two boys born in Rangoon,William and ?.Which sibling is your direct line ?
-
Oh No! Some mix up here, Only one child born in India and that was William Henry Baker not born in Rangoon but Bombay.
The other child was my direct line a son Joseph. He is my 2nd suspect child. He was registered in England but on one census it states his birth was "Sea" which means either overseas or at sea. I havent found any evidence of his being overseas.
Why my suspect children you might ask.
Well both parents - William and Sarah applied for their passports in 1853 but several months apart. He either travelled in Dec 1853 or was employed in Dec 1853 as I have a copy of his bond. Unfortunatley it doesn't give any more info.
The family alread had two children when William went to India. My WHB was born in 1857 and baptised in 1859. It is his baptism record that I have and which also gives his birth date. I haven't been able to track down his birth certificate.
I know some women joined their husbands and some did not, and as I don't have any proof that Sarah went to India I cannot be sure the child she had in India or indeed my gt grandfather were her natural children. Likewise for WHB. A baptism record does not confirm they are the true parents, it just confirms that they are the parents at the time of the baptism and as this was 2years after the birth. One must also remember that this was at the time of the mutiny where many children were left orphans.
The reason behind all the above is because my gt grandfather's skin tone was olive, with jet black hair. He had 8 children, some of which were fair haired with blue eyes, one had a darker olive skin, with black hair, another was small with dark eyes and black hair. And one had the features and colours of a true child from India. Of one daughter with fair hair and blue eyes she had twin girls one of which was real Indian beauty.
I have traced the first child of William and Sarah and this is the sensitive case, but of those that I know about they were fair with blue eyes.. The 2nd child emigrated and on his passenger lists it clearly states he was "white". Of 3 remaining children I have evidence that one was definatley white, their 3rd child was WHB the 4th my gt grandfather and I have evidence that one daughter was definatley "white" and I believe her sister was too. The last daughter had twin girls who died age 6mths and she passed away a few years later with no surviving children.
William Snr may have took in WHB and my gt grandfather and brought them up as his own children and had WHB baptised in India. Or Sarah may be the natural mother and gave birth just prior to her leaving India and registered the b birth in England.
I have traced Sarah's line and non of them have any coluring or features fro any other culture except English so it's not her line. I've traced my line and apart from WHB all the rest were born in England.
I have noticed from Chris's thread that he may have misunderstood me, my aunts told me that somewhere back a generation from their grandfather that he was a gurkha, thus meaning William Snr and not Cornelius.
-
Right, I'll sit here and digest it all,Thanks Lou ;DLooks like there could be skeletons in the cupboard :o
-
Yeah know what you mean. My dear old aunts bless them, it took one of them almost a year to tell me her granddad had dark skin. Then a 2 years ago she told me that somewhere back in the tree there is supposed to be a Gurkha, she did say it was her dad's granddad - meaning William Baker. I have researched this theory with the Gurkha Museum and although there was a William Gurkha it didn't fit with mine. I just thought it was something the family came up with!!!!
Within the last few weeks though her sister has now thrown that theory to kingdom, because she says' she remembers seeing a photograph of a man in uniform which she was told was a gurkha uniform. Again it could be a story, but it seems more credible. I'm off to visit her tomorrow to see if she can remember anything else, I'm not expecting anything new as she is in her 80's and apparently she was a child when she saw the photo, but you never know.
The plot just seems to be getting more and more interesting. I've been reserching my WHB for about 5 years, but with the new info Chris gave me on his death and employment it give more hope.
I have found a William Baker b 1858 leaving the UK in 1880 but arriving in New York!
But I must say there are quite a few co-incidences.
-
Hi Lou and welcome to the thread!
I have sent you a summary of the children of WHB which might ring a few bells. The children of WHB (apart from the unfortunate Frederick seem to have all settled in the South East by 1920-30's namely Surrey and Hampshire as well as a couple of mentions along the South Coast.
With regards to WHB I know that he was possibly in the following places from the childrens' births and school records
1881 Jeypore Mechanical Engineer, Water Works
1883-1887 Chinsurah Foreman, Hooghli Bridge Works
1894 Gwalior/Agra ?
1905-1909 Gwalior ?
The death record of Jan 1909 for WHB, son of William and Sarah describes his profession "Chief Supt. G & L Railway"
On Cedric's birth certificate in 1897 WHB is described as "Civil Engineer" and this term is used on the army applications of Frederick and Cedric as well as Helena's death certificate.
-
British Library look-up's:
I am planning a trip this week to try to shed more light on WHB. I was proposing to look up the following records but please suggest any others that you think might help:-
1) WHB death record again and get a copy this time
2) Try to find a will for WHB (where do you start?)
3) Frederick's baptism in Gwalior (to see WHB profession)
4) Frederick's Sandhurst application (might have some info on WHB)
5) Frederick's senior police promotion (aparently these records have quite bit of family background)
-
Hi Chris, Have replied.
I am with you on this one, I havne't got a clue where to look for WHB's will. I've already tried the National Archives.
I would have also suggested the Lloyds Register of Shipping for William Snr' to find out whether he worked for the R & O or the P & O. I have been in touch with the British Library and they say their holidings for the LRS is in the process of being moved. They also confirm the initials are clearly R & O and not P & O on his death cert. But they think the LRS could help clarify this.
Also I would try and look up the Gwailor Light Railway for his employment records for the suspected WHB. I have already written back to the British Library to see if they hold them there. I've also asked if they hold Will's there
I am not sure whether a will which most probably would have be drawn up in India would be help in England, but I shall plug away and see if I can find anything.
Yes it would be great to have a copy of his death record, sometimes we miss things the first time around only to discover some tiny snippet of info at a later date.
I would think you have enough to look for when you get the the library. The only other place I can think of is the National Archives, but I've tried to search their on line and haven't found much. But it is a web site I alwasy get lost in and find it hard to use.
-
Same here Lou with the National Archives,I find it very hard to negotiate..
-
Hi Lou
I know what you mean about the NA website, I have never found much on it compared to the amount of searching. What is the "LRS" please?
I think I can confirm the place of death for WHB. "Morar" was mentioned on the death record and I have found that Morar was a town 3 miles east of the old town of Gwalior. Morar has now been swallowed up into Gwalior as it has expanded. It was the site of a British Military cantonment and a center for trade and training. Presumably he would be buried somewhere in the area?
-
Hi Chris,
Can't remember if your Frederick had a middle name but have found this on National Archives,
Memorandum of admission of Frederick William Baker under the will of William Bak...[Sutton Local Studies Centre, Records of Carshalton...] Date: 1899 P5/12/66 17 Aug. 1900
does this tie in with your Frederick Baker?
-
Don't think it is him, Frederick's full name was Frederick Clarence Scindia Baker (poor lad!)
-
LDS is the Latter Day Saints site or family search or Mormons site. Different people call it different things but its' the same site.
Just received a reply from The British Library. They don't hold any will there for William and they don't hold any employment records for the G L Railway, so it's back to the trail again.
I've never found anything at the Nat Archives and I also find their staff most unhelpfull. I wrote to them once for clarification on an item and they just sent me back loads of leaflets which didn't help at all, they couldn't even be bothered to put pen to paper and answer the question.
I looked up Morar and found it to be in India, as I didn't think Morar was in England. I am off in a shile to try and visit my elderly aunt I told you about. I am hoping she can shed some light on at least how old she was when she saw the photo of the gurkha and hopefully find out if she know whether it was a close or distant relative.
At this moment in time I can't think of anything else for you to look up, but will keeping thinking.
I've taken a look at your thread on here and have printed it off, well>>>> I would only printer gave up the ghost last night.... the new ink we bough has caused some problems so hubby going to sort it tonight, but I have been trying to digest it all. you've done great with what you've found out so far.
Will keep ploddong on, but will have to dash for now. Will send you message via other thread - re photo. thanks that would be great and likewise. of my granddad. But will have to dash, got the aunt to see before she goes out.
-
Regarding WHB's address; I have just realized something;
On the Bedford School records of WHB's son Frederick (born in Gwalior) it says that the parents live:-
"Residency, P.O. Gwalior, C. India"
Now, I assumed that it meant that their residency could be reached c/o Post Office (box?) in Gwalior ::) but I have recently found some new information which narrows things down and I think provides more evidence as to this being the WHB (1857-1909) born to William and Sarah, as his place of death was Morar.
"The headquarters of the political officer were situated in the area known as The Residency, a piece of land measuring 1.17 square miles (3.0 km2) situated close to Morar, about four miles (6 km) to the east of Gwalior fort."
-
Don't think it is him, Frederick's full name was Frederick Clarence Scindia Baker (poor lad!)
"Scindia, anglicized from Shinde, and also spelled as Sindhia, Sindia, is a Maratha family in India which included rulers of the Gwalior State in the 18th and 19th centuries, collaborators of the colonial British government during the 19th and the 20th centuries until India became independent, and politicians in independent India."
-
WHB death record
I went back to library and had another look at this. Unfortunately their microfiche printer was not the best so I need to do a bit of work to tidy up the copies. What is for sure is:
Place of death; Morar
Profession; "Loco Superintendant, G L Railways"
Date 29 Jan 1909, age at death 51 years 7 months
Father "William Henry Baker" deceased -not sure if William Sr has ever been mentioned as William Henry before?
His mother is Sarah Baker. There is no comment to say that she is deceased so presumably alive still in 1909
The cause of death is difficult to work out, perhaps someone with a bit of medical knowledge might help?
-
WHB death record
I went back to library and had another look at this. Unfortunately their microfiche printer was not the best so I need to do a bit of work to tidy up the copies. What is for sure is:
Place of death; Morar
Profession; "Loco Superintendant, G L Railways"
Date 29 Jan 1909, age at death 51 years 7 months
Father "William Henry Baker" deceased -not sure if William Sr has ever been mentioned as William Henry before?
His mother is Sarah Baker. There is no comment to say that she is deceased so presumably alive still in 1909?
The cause of death is difficult to work out, perhaps someone with a bit of medical knowledge might help?
-
I've never found William Snr being called William Henry before. But I did wonder why his son's middle name was Henry as there were no other Henry's in the family, So that explains it. I can also confirm that WHB's father was deceased.
The info on the Residency Morar is very interesting to say the least and I agree it does provide more evidence.
I had thought that Sarah died around 1905 but it wasn't a perfect match. But just last night I did more digging and found a much closer match, and think now that she died in 1912.
I always thought that the spinster's were sisters, but last night I found a match for one of them being married and living with Sarah Baker. So maybe your spinster and mine were the two living together.
You mention a solicitor, so maybe we should be looking for his Will in England. For them to do a 3yr search we have to have a main date in mind and they will search one year either side of that, so if you could give me the date I wil write off for a search.
-
This must be a record, 2 weeks without a post on here! Not sure if you saw this from another thread, but the popular consensus on WHB's cause of death was a stroke
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,417962.0.html
-
Have you heard from Lou?
-
PM sent
-
A stoke!!! Well that solves that little problem, I just oculdn't make it out at all.
Still not heard back from York regarding his Will. Am keeping fingers crossed they find one.
The latest on the new connection is that they ordered the marriage cert but unfortunatly the cert doens't include parents names, so we're now in the process of looking for his baptism or birth cert. I haven't any more spare money so cna't order it unfortunatley. So when we know more I will keep you informed. No good giving you any info on them untill we know they are connected to our Baker's.
I was wondering as Helena's father was in the military, would it be possible for her and WHB to be married with the Army chaplain? Seeing as she was under age her father might not have been able to attend but if they married within the army boundaries - ?? what do you think.
I have been working on a tree for a friend and discovered that their ancestor was also married in India and I thought I'd never get anywhere, only to discover his military papers included the marriage details. I know it's not the same, but you just never know what might pop up.
I don't suppose you have a photo of Cedric in his Gurkha uniform do you? My aunt remembers seeing a photo of one of our Baker's in one and I wondered if you did she might just recognise it?
-
Hi Lou
I don't have a photo :( I have asked his daughter if I can make copies of relevant photos and would love to have one of Cedric in uniform. He was in the Gurkhas from 1919 to 1935 and then from 1939 to 1945 and reached the rank of Major. His medals are in the Gurkha museum in Winchester. His brother Frederick was also in the Indian Army from 1915-1922 but in the 16th Rajputs rather than the Gurkhas. There were however several Bakers in the Gurkhas and I think there might be a family connection.
Cedric's daughter is also in contact with the grand-daughter of their sister Mabel so she might well have photos and info as well. I will send you a PM with some details.
With regards to Helena and her father Patrick, he was certainly in the army in 1871 (The Royal Artillery and in England ) and I agree that it is quite likely that Helena would have been married by an army chaplain if her father was still in the army in 1880.
I have not tried Kew yet to try to find Patrick as I don't really know where to start there
-
http://www.thepotteries.org/family_history/indexs.htm
Looks like you have another relative.....
-
Do you have them on the censuse's? I have them 1881 to 1901...
-
http://www.maplandia.com/united-kingdom/england/west-midlands/city-of-stoke-on-trent/fenton/
The addess they lived at for twenty years at least was Brunswick st, it's name was changed in the'50s to Beville street...
-
One of the Censuse's has George down with the middle name Fenkes,the IGI has a baptism for a George Fewkes
Sheppard 30 May 1830 St John Coventry,parents George Fewkes Sheppard and Phoebe.....
Marriage of George Fewkes Sheppard senior to Phebe Lindon Twigg 9 Nov' 1828 ,St John Coventry.These are extracted entries.....Someone
has submitted an entry,George Fenkes Sheppard to Phoebe,same date as above....
I think the Fenkes and Fewkes are the same man...
-
George and Phoebe in the 1841 Coventry...with Lindon relatives.
Ho107/1152/book1.
Mill lane,
Christian Cosby age 65
George Sheppard age 35 bricklayer
Phoebe age 30
George age 11
Joseph Lindon age 40 worsted weaver
Sarah Lindon age 9
Eliza Lindon age 7
John Bearman age 25
Mary Bearman age 20
Elizabeth age 4 months.
-
1851 census Mill lane Coventry.
George Fanks Sheppard age 47 bricklayer born Grove in Retford Notts
Pheobe age 43 born Warwickshire
Isaac Manton visitor age 34 brass founder born Birmingham?
Ho107/2067/40/page 26...
IGI entry George Fewkes Sheppard baptised 1802 Grove Nottingham,parents William Sheppard and Esther Maria...
-
IGI mariage ...Extracted entry.
William Sheppard to Esther Maria Fewkes 3 Aug' 1793 Grove,Nottingham...
This getting confusing.The census entry which said Fenkes should have said Fewkes???
-
Siblings of George Fewkes Sheppard all baptised at Grove Nottingham....
Sophia Matilda 8 June 1802(same date as George Fewkes)
Kezia 9 July 1797
Charles Ahijah 22 June 1800
Marianne Fewkes 17 June 1804....
-
Hi Chris,
are you happy with this lot so far......Whats new your end..
-
Hi
Sorry been away from this for a little while. So from the top:
-I think that there must be a few relatives out there as my G, Grandmother Ethel Sheppard was one of 11 children but I have no idea as to what became of any of her siblings, so I am sure there are a few to add to the Christmas card list!
-I have got them on 1851 and 1861 (have a nose through my Ancestry tree to see where I have got to)
-"Fewkes" and "Fenkes" both appear depending on the index but seems to be the same chap. It does not help either that his wife appears as "Boroden" and "Bowden" as well.
-I had George back to the Coventry Bricklayer as well but not gone any further. I will have a look at the IGI records as I had completely missed these.
- I am amazed at how much you manage to turn up!
It is interesting that a great number of the streets in Fenton had their names changed in the 50's. Was there a reason for this?
Take care and thanks again
-
Hi Chris,
they seemed to be changed all over Stoke,I don't know why.
Gosh it's been so long since you've been on, Ive forgotten where we up to.. :-\
-
Not much progress really on the Baker side. We are stuck with trying to find the marriage of WHB and Helena. Lou has found half a match in Ireland but we are working on the idea that they were married by an army chaplain either in England or India. The GRO are not being terribly helpful and much seems to rest on going to Kew to try to find her father Patrick's army records for a clue as to where Helena might have been at the time.
I have not heard back from Cedric's daughter so nothing new to report there.
I have also been doing a bit of work on my grandmother's line which has proved quite fruitful as I have managed to find the first two family graves (cheerful subject!)
-
Found another Fenton address; Walther Sheppard in 1911 was in Market Street now King Street
-
Hi,
I am stuck! Alfred George Sheppard b Dec 1872 in on the 1901 with wife Martha at 54 Frederick Street, Fenton. I can't find them on the 1911 though there is a curiously similar chap in Islington. Any ideas?
Also seem to be stuck with trying to find any of them in 1871
-
Hi Chris,
do you mean you can't find Alfred George's(born 1872) Father in the 1871..
-
Hi
I was just editing my last post to say that I have found them in 1871. They are in Penkhull but the census record had been transcribed as "Shepherd". I will see how this fills in some of the blanks that I was stuck on.
-
Hi
These are the Sheppard oddities/wish list/work in progress;
-Charles b. 1861 got him in 1871 but not after
-Phebe b. 1855 only appears on 1861 then nothing
-Arthur b. 1857 nothing after 1871
-Charles b. 1861 nothing after 1871
-Emily b. 1866 appears on 1871 but not 1881. Would she have left home by the age of 15?
-Sarah Ann b. 1868 nothing after 1881
-Walter b. 1871 any other children apart from Ena Mary?
-George b. 1873 is not on 1881 so presumed to have died but can't find a death
-
Are these the Children of Sarah born 1835?
-
Hi
Yes, they are the children of George F. Sheppard b 1830 and Sarah Ann b. 1835
All the best
-
Just wondering who this is....1871 William Fewkes Sheppard in Salford.RG10/4017/4/page 1.
Phoebe married George Bragg 1874 in Stoke.
1881 census for Honeywall ,Stoke,same address as 1861.
1881.RG9/1939/31/page 1.
-
Following Sarah,now in Brunswick st.1881 RG11/2731/62/page 7.
1891 Brunswick street.RG12/2178/158/19.
1901 Brunswick street.
RG13/2612/41/page29. Walter and Ethel are with Sarah..
-
Just wondering who this is....1871 William Fewkes Sheppard in Salford.RG10/4017/4/page 1.
Phoebe married George Bragg 1874 in Stoke.
1881 census for Honeywall ,Stoke,same address as 1861.
1881.RG9/1939/31/page 1.
Hi
This one seems to be a bit of a red herring and I am not sure that it is the same chap, but it is a distinctive name so possibly he went off on a bit of a tangent?
-
Following Sarah,now in Brunswick st.1881 RG11/2731/62/page 7.
1891 Brunswick street.RG12/2178/158/19.
1901 Brunswick street.
RG13/2612/41/page29. Walter and Ethel are with Sarah..
That's them. Ethel is my G, Grandmother. By 1911 they have all left Brunswick St. so I am guessing that Sarah has died by then and Walter has finally left home
-
Hi
Back to the original topic of India, I have now found out about William Henry Baker's daughter Mabel and her subsequent family (which includes living relatives) so very excited about that. The one child of WHB that remains unaccounted for is Frederick Clarence Scindia Baker. It might be worth starting a new thread for him as this one is a bit of a jumble now!
All the best
Chris
-
Hello,
I have been reading through your posts about WHBaker and Helena. Very interesting and informative, especially as a lesson in how to find records for India.
I have also been trying to trace Bakers in India. I don't know if they intersect with yours at all, but perhaps they can help you eliminate some from your list.
It is so difficult to trace them back very far...too many Bakers.
So in the 1850's we have Col. William Thurlow Baker(1824-1900)(H. B. M. 4th Regt. of Foot)(m. Elizabeth Vincent) and brothers, Charles George(b.1830) and John Thurlow(1834-1909) emigrating to Canada from India then to Iowa, USA. All of them were born in India, according to US Census records, and Iowa State census (helps to sort them out from the various and sundry other Bakers in Iowa). Their father was John(1789-1861, d. at Good Hope, S. Africa), mother Lydia King(b.1798) (yes...another one of those common names), grandfather William Baker, and Mother Elizabeth Thurlow (her parents: Thomas Thurlow and Mary Shuldric). Can't figure out anyone older that William.
In one of your posts, you mention finding a record of a female Baker, granddaughter living w. grandmother. I have seen that record, and there are a number of grandchildren, b. in India, with grandmother, Lydia. Anyway, seems they were possibly all there on holiday with her. Those would be my Bakers.
The 3 brothers had the following siblings:
• Lydia King Baker 1821-1881
• Ellen Baker b. 1823
• Edward Baker b. 1823
• Flora Elizabeth Baker b.1829
• Ellen Sarah Baker b. 1833 (possibly the same person as Ellen above w. birth year error?)
• Anne G Baker
John Thurlow, my 3 Great Gr., married in Iowa, to Victoria M Relf.
Charles George's marriage records are available as well; haven't got to them yet.
Hopefully you can at least scratch some names off of your list.
I can't figure out where, if at all, that our Bakers connect.
-
Hi
I hadn't seen that one. I don't have any idea of ages or dates for William and Helena so it is a possibility. The main thing that says not to me is that the departure is from Bombay rather than Calcutta which would have been their nearest port. Not impossible though. As soon as I find anything at the museum I will let you know
All the best
Only just caught this topic so apologies for going over old ground!
As regards "from Bombay rather than Calcutta", most sailings to India, and it was still true when I went over in the 1960s, terminated at Bombay. Getting to Calcutta then involved an overland journey usually by train. Calcutta doesn't have a deep water port as the Ganges brings down tons of silt from the mountains which would need constant dredging.
Tony
-
Hello I too am Searching for my Baker Family In India My Great grand Mother Was Mary Ann Baker B 9-9-1864 Bombay India Her father's name was Henry Baker also Born Abt 1830 Dysur India His occupation Was Overseer on B.B.H.I Railway (Bombay & Baroda.H.I Railway)he was married to Mary? My gt grand Mother Mary Ann Baker Married John Henry Green On the 7-3-1885 Saint Thomas Cathedral, Veer Nariman Road, Fort, Bombay India He was Impoyed as an engineer Engineer, Government Dockyard.
My GT Grand Mother Died 28 Sept 1950 Age 86 in Bombay I am also trying to find links to the Green Family ??? hope some one can help Regards Noreen
-
Hello I too am Searching for my Baker Family In India My Great grand Mother Was Mary Ann Baker B 9-9-1864 Bombay India Her father's name was Henry Baker also Born Abt 1830 Dysur India His occupation Was Overseer on B.B.H.I Railway (Bombay & Baroda.H.I Railway)he was married to Mary? My gt grand Mother Mary Ann Baker Married John Henry Green On the 7-3-1885 Saint Thomas Cathedral, Veer Nariman Road, Fort, Bombay India He was Impoyed as an engineer Engineer, Government Dockyard.
My GT Grand Mother Died 28 Sept 1950 Age 86 in Bombay I am also trying to find links to the Green Family ??? hope some one can help Regards Noreen
Would this be any relation to a Richard Alan Baker whome had sons John my grandfather, Robert, Leslie Baker ? John was living in Allahabad India and died in 1956, I believe his brothers went back to the UK which I'm trying to trace
John Baker was married to Madeline Perkins and had 2 boys Allan and Neville Baker
Neville Baker was married to Helen Greene
-
A lot of good work here. Posting because i would like to hear what you find in future
-
Hello,
I have been reading through your posts about WHBaker and Helena. Very interesting and informative, especially as a lesson in how to find records for India.
I have also been trying to trace Bakers in India. I don't know if they intersect with yours at all, but perhaps they can help you eliminate some from your list.
It is so difficult to trace them back very far...too many Bakers.
So in the 1850's we have Col. William Thurlow Baker(1824-1900)(H. B. M. 4th Regt. of Foot)(m. Elizabeth Vincent) and brothers, Charles George(b.1830) and John Thurlow(1834-1909) emigrating to Canada from India then to Iowa, USA. All of them were born in India, according to US Census records, and Iowa State census (helps to sort them out from the various and sundry other Bakers in Iowa). Their father was John(1789-1861, d. at Good Hope, S. Africa), mother Lydia King(b.1798) (yes...another one of those common names), grandfather William Baker, and Mother Elizabeth Thurlow (her parents: Thomas Thurlow and Mary Shuldric). Can't figure out anyone older that William.
In one of your posts, you mention finding a record of a female Baker, granddaughter living w. grandmother. I have seen that record, and there are a number of grandchildren, b. in India, with grandmother, Lydia. Anyway, seems they were possibly all there on holiday with her. Those would be my Bakers.
The 3 brothers had the following siblings:
• Lydia King Baker 1821-1881
• Ellen Baker b. 1823
• Edward Baker b. 1823
• Flora Elizabeth Baker b.1829
• Ellen Sarah Baker b. 1833 (possibly the same person as Ellen above w. birth year error?)
• Anne G Baker
John Thurlow, my 3 Great Gr., married in Iowa, to Victoria M Relf.
Charles George's marriage records are available as well; haven't got to them yet.
Hopefully you can at least scratch some names off of your list.
I can't figure out where, if at all, that our Bakers connect.
Jewelsconundrum,
I have this tree too: John Thurlow Baker is my Great Great Grand Uncle (his brother Edward Biscay Marinatus Baker is my Great Great Grandfather). My father researched their father John Baker's tree as far as UK and India records would allow about 20 years ago, and I just found the files.
Reply if you want to share.