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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Alicat84 on Wednesday 09 September 09 22:15 BST (UK)
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If anyone has access to a Thoms from this range of years, 1889 - 1895, could you please check out 25/26 Cuffe Street in Dublin?
There SHOULD be a Donnelly family there, and they should be running a shop which could be a Fruiterer and Florist or a butchers, but if someone could verify it that would be great. I'm not sure if it will be a P. Donnelly or a T. Donnelly, again another uncertainty.
If anyone has Thoms from the years closely before and after my range would they be able to check them out too and see if the shop or the family are still there? I'm fairly sure about the 1889- 1895 because I have copies of advertisements from the Irish Times. However, it states that they are meat Traders. The photo I have clearly says that the shop is a Fruiterer and Florist so I'm a bit confused. I know their very close family friend was a butcher, and even lived with them for a time so maybe they joined forces at some stage?...
Thank you :)
The photo is at this link ( Don't worry, it's nothing bad, it just sends you to pix.ie where I'm hosting the photo cause it's too big for this site apparently)
http://pix.ie/alicat/1212666/size/1200
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Hi,,,you can search the 1911 census,,,which is now complete and free....i have had a look at cuffe street,,,i cant see any connollys there then,,,,however the irish census is much more detailed than the english ,,you can look at the buildings sheets and see what type of dwelling it is. here is a link to cuffe street....you can have a look at the number you are interested in,,,just click on the occupants of the number of the street you are interested in,,,then click on the census images to look at the buildings return forms etc,,,,you might find something of interest ,,if nothing else,,,,regards,,,Mike
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/Cuffe_St__/
there is a margaret connolly at house number 27.2
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Thanks for the reply :)
It's actually Donnelly by the way, not Connelly but thank you! :D
Yeah I have them on the census alright, but at that stage they had moved to Pembroke Street and the father is now listed as a "Motorman" (apparently he even drove DeValera around a bit).
I'm not even certain it was the same guy who had the shop though, cause The Motorman's name is Thomas while the Irish Times Ads are listing it as a P. Donnelly, which maybe could be a brother or something?? You know how family rumours can get around like Chinese Whispers over the years :D That's why I kinda wanted to know what the Thoms said. The last known record I have of the shop owned by the Donnellys is in 1895, an ad for meat for Christmas.
Hopefully in a few months the 1901 census might shed some more light on the situation. In the meantime, I just thought someone might be able to check the Thoms out for me. Very busy at work lately and can't find the time to go to Pearse St Library yet :(
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Alicat
Slater's Directory 1894 shows Patrick Donnelly ..Butcher as the occupier of No.25 Cuffe Street.
The Irish Times for 22nd November 1887 on P.2 Advert. shows P.Donnelly Meats.
I have no reference to Donnelly being in No.26 and further, he was gone from No.25 by 1911(per Thoms).
Regards Quaxer
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Ohhh thank you very much! :D
I had a feeling it was a different family member alright. So it was definitely a butcher's at that stage.
Interesting that the photo I have is a Fruiterer/Florist though. You can see in the top left of the photo that it says Cuffe Street, and the numbers on the shop front are 25/26 so I suppose my next job will be to find out when that photo was taken. My great grandfather was a photographer from a young age (at age 18 in 1911 he's listed as one) so maybe he took the photo and this was after 1911 at some stage.
It's still in the Donnelly name at both times though so I'll have to find out who this Patrick fella is.
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Alicat
Thanks for your latest.
Have always had a curiosity about Cuffe Street. Would love to see the photo up on the screen ,if it is possible (it would be beyond my skills) and maybe we can date it from street directories.
Say the word if you need any occupants from adjoining properties from the Irish Times or Thoms etc.
Regards Quaxer
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Thanks Quaxer, I tried resizing the photo, hopefully this might work, but it's going to be very small I think!
I'm nearly certain that Thomas Donnelly was involved with a/the shop on Cuffe Street at some stage though. We had a family reunion about two years ago and it was held in the hotel on the Corner of Old Cuffe Street because that's where the shop was! So the whole family are convinced of it anyway.
I've found a Patrick Donnelly now in Dublin in 1911 listed as a "Bullock Man"...that could be him! The ads in the Times mention the cattle markets....
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Alicat,
Just a minute,all does not add up correctly. Firstly the premises are numbered 26 and not 25 as I gave in my previous. Thomas Birmingham (aplumber ) occupied No.26 from 1887-C1911. In Thoms 1911 No. 25 is stated to be a victuallers shop.
Further the title headboard over the shop in your photo states (if I read it accurately under my magnifying loupe)
Patrick Donnelly Florist 26. I looked at the goods displayed outside the shop and they appear to be flowers and plants. What is in the baskets to the right and behind the boy I cannot make out I reckon that the photo dates from about C.1900 by the dress of the adults but there is no Pdonnelly as a florist in Slaters 1894 or Thoms 1911. and further my source work on the Irish Times shows nothing more than previously stated. In addition I have no record of Cuffe Street being renumbered then.
I think you should check the source of the photo and question relatives as to why they believe C.St.isit Quaxer
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Alicat
Message No.2 dont give up on Cuffe Street. Slaters for 1894 gives James Bermingham (Greengrocer) as occupant of No.26. The answer lies somewhere in this fog.
Regards Quaxer
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Hey Quaxer,
The picture is very small cause it's the only size I can get on the forum, a clearer one is at the link in my first message.
In the very top left corner it says Cuffe Street. It's at a perpendicular angle to the photographer so it's very hard to see unless you're looking at a decent copy with magnification.
The Shop front in the picture says " Fruiter - Donnelly - Florist ", not "Patrick, and it's fruit that's in the baskets beside the little boy. Notice the bananas hanging in the window? :D
The numbers on the shop front, the one on the right is definitely 26. The one on the left (covered by a plant) is either 25 or 26, we thought it might be 25 because there are two doorways which could have indicated two separate dwellings. But it COULD be 26 as well.
When I searched the Times Online for Donnelly shops in Cuffe Street, it threw up the 25 repeatedly so we thought it a possibility that the shop was passing between family members and their respective trades.
Nothing is certain at this stage and I'm open to all suggestions and corrections though :D
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a little bit later than the timeframe mentioned originally - from Thom's 1914 :
Cuffe St.
25 William Coffey, victualler,
26 Thos. Donnelly, fruiterer
hope you dont mind Alicat84 .. I've attached a cropped and slightly enhanced version of your photo..
also attached a blowup / enhancement and negative of the number on the left - which I think looks like another 26.
Shane
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Oh my goodness that's super Shane, thank you so much for looking that up!
1914 fits perfectly really, seeing as the Photographer in the family was only 18 in 1911 so I figured it couldn't have been much earlier than that.
So it might also explain why Thomas is down as a "Motorman" in 1911, he hasn't opened his shop yet.
Like my own father, he seems to be a jack of all trades. We also have a photo of him with tea-traders that he used to deal with when he apparently(!) was involved with/ran/owned a hotel in Ballsbridge.
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Dear Alicat & Shane
I missed the link ,sorry but the blow up was good. It most likely shows No.26 Cuffe Street for the following.
No. 25 was on the south side of Cuffe street with No.1 Harcourt on its right flank and at right angles. I've checked all the maps in my possession but unfortunately none show (as the photo doeson the left hand side) where No.25 projects forward of the building line of No.26 etc. Could anybody check this in a large scale map.
My Irish Times work shows on 27/8/79 in an advert. on P.1 that a Thomas Byrne (victualler) was in occupation and P. Donnelly (meats) was there in 1887 as previously stated. If we look at the sign board on No.25 at right angles to the one on No.26 it is not quite legible to me (Shane more wizardry please) but in the Irish Times I have an entry on 27/8/98 on P.5 in the Police Court William Coffey was fined for furious cycling. The photo looks like Coffe... to me .
For No.26 theI.T. on P.3 of issue of 10/12/86 shows that a William Doyle was fine d for having an unregistered dairy yard here.Presumably there must have been space at the rear of No.26 together with a rear entrance . Can anybody check this on a map. Maybe at the Valuation Office?
Regards Quaxer
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here's a blow up of the other text to the left of the main shop sign - looks like 'Cuffe' to me.. although the top of the letters are in shadow. Maybe some sort of street sign?
I had a look at an 1860 OS map, it does not show any distinctive features which would help confirm the exact location. Going by the street numbers and side street details listed in Thom's I would say the shop was on the south side of the street, and second to the west from the Cuffe St., Harcourt St junction
see the rough map below.
Shane
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Could it perhaps say COFFEE?
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Could it perhaps say COFFEE?
I was thinking that - then I had a closer look at the directory and realized that the shop to the left at #25 was a William Coffey, victualler..
Shane
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Dear Shanew & A
Thank you for the map. I had hoped to see No.25 projecting forward but my O.S. 1849 and 1911 show just one solid block for that side of the street. Unfortunately I have no personal recollection of the exact spot. I have a vivid memory of Nos30- being demolished . In fact when passing then I could hear bits of debris falling within the buildings.
Although one cannot be certain ,I believe that the writing is a trade sign for the William Coffey whom I mentioned earlier in No.25. I would go for Cuffe Street as being the scene of the photo.
Regards Quaxer.
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Thank you for all the effort you're putting in to this! :)
Do you know is there anywhere that might have old photos of Cuffe Street? One of the city libraries maybe? Seeing as it's so close to The Green maybe there's photos of the Green with the corner of Cuffe Street in view?
And that "Coffey" on the side of the building is very interesting, I always thought it was Cuffe
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there are various collections of Photos in Dublin Libraries - probably the best is the Lawrence collection at the National Library - they have digitized many of these, and a database is available at : http://www.rootschat.com/links/072w/
It seems to include quite a number of photo's of Stephen's green, which you can view online but I dont see any good views of of Cuffe St..
Shane
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Alicat
The book "Lost Dublin" by Frederick O'Dwyer and published by Gill & Macmillan at Pages 49 & 114 contains photos of Cuffe Street but unfortunately do not show the top (Harcourt St.) corner which is the part of interest to us.
The street began to deteriorate from the 1890s and the remaining older parts were in bad condition as I remember them in the 1960s.
Regards Quaxer
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Shane, thanks for the input, I'll be driving myself mad looking for Cuffe Street photos everywhere now ;D
Quaxer, yeah the street looks bad enough as it is in the photo. In 1911, the census records show that number 20 and 21 are just listed as "ruins" so it probably wasn't the prettiest of streets.
I shall not give up yet though. I might try to get into Pearse Street in the next few weeks. And hopefully by Spring next year the 1901 census will be up and I can see where the family were, maybe find some other members. I'm also waiting for the Irish Family History Foundation to digitise their records for Dublin City. I know the site is expensive but it really has helped me tremendously over the past year.
In the meantime, keep any suggestions coming and if anyone has Thoms from 1900 - 1920's please have a look for me if you can :)
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Shane I see you posted something a good while ago about looking up Thoms...do you still have the 1922 one? They're not in that by any chance are they?
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Shane I see you posted something a good while ago about looking up Thoms...do you still have the 1922 one? They're not in that by any chance are they?
I dont have the 1922 edition, but eadaoin does.. I'm sure she will spot our discussion and have a look for more details.
Shane
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Alicat
Except that William Coffey (Victualler) was in No.25 (Thoms 1911) Icannot add more to my message No.3. The entries in my next Thoms(1923) are of no relevance
Tucked away I have a valuation for death duties purposes of 2 premises (No.50- I believe) where because of their condition they are valued at 10 pounds sterling each. (in 1915).
Regards Quaxer
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1922 Thoms shows Cuffe St
25 Greene, John, fishmonger
26 Donnelly, Thos, fruiterer etc
(Shane - I'm She, not He!!)
eadaoin
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sorry about that... I had never really thought about how your user name was pronounced before ..
Shane
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Thanks for looking that up for me Eadaoin ;D
Quaxer, so he's there in 1922 as per Eadaoin's Thoms but he's gone from yours in 1923?
At least that begins to tighten the time frame for me. I just have to find out when he arrived now! :)
And 10 pounds for the premises is dreadful...they must have been in a right state.
Thanks everyone :)
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Alicat
Regret the following error as I was following Coffey and not Donnelly
Donnelly was in No.26 until 1928 (Thoms 1923 & 1928) but in Thoms 1929 John Cook (fish and chip restaurant) shown as occupant.
Regards Quaxer
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one more update for you... from Thom's 1904
Cuffe St
25 William Coffey, victualler
26 James Bermingham, plumber & sanitary engineer
27 J. Woods , fruitier & greengrocer
that would seem to show that the Donnellys were not yet at that address in 1904.
Shane
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Thanks very much Shane!
it's been so hard with this side of the family (my dad's) because no one seems to know a lot! I just get blank faces when I start asking questions ::) This is his father's family. And to top it all off my dad's mother was an orphan so that side of the family tree is tiny! I have about 400 people on my mother's side!
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Just thought I'd update with a little bit of information. I work in Swords and went to visit the new Local Studies and Archives building across the road. Turns out they have LOADS of Thom's Directories! The earliest ones I spotted were from 1866 onwards. They also had something marked 'Almanac' and these went back to the 1700's but I was in too much of a rush to investigate them. I'm heading back over tomorrow so I will check them out. If anyone wants me to look for anything for them let me know!
Anyway, I found that the first year my Thomas Donnelly appeared at 26 Cuffe Street was in 1913 :) Tomorrow morning I plan to track this family rumour that the Donnelly's also had something to do with a hotel in Ballsbridge.
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If anyone wants me to look for anything for them let me know!
Many thanks, that is very kind of you.
I would appreciate if you could look for anything regarding the Dignam family in Swords, Balheary, Magillstown area. It may also have been spelled as Duignam.
Best wishes,
Dara.
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Any rough idea of a time frame? The books start from the early 1850's and go right up to present day. I haven't had to look up anything outside the city yet but I'll see what's in it.
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The county areas are listed in Thom's under the main towns - Swords included. The county Dublin section follows the city street listing in the books.
As far as I can see Balheary and Magillstown are near to Swords and if listed would probably be included in that area.
I can start you off with the 1848 listing for Swords - see http://roots.swilson.info/towns1848/img/swor1.html
Shane
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Any rough idea of a time frame?
Anything between 1835 and 1880 would be great.
I can start you off with the 1848 listing for SwordsShane
Thank you Shane. No Dignams on that list but some of the names on there have turned up on certs as witness/sponsors.
Dara.