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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: kingy011 on Saturday 19 September 09 11:46 BST (UK)

Title: Black - Dornes
Post by: kingy011 on Saturday 19 September 09 11:46 BST (UK)
Hi. I am researching my great grandparents and their parents. My GGp's were John Black and Isabella Dornes. John was a Palnackie-born mariner who was drowned in 1891 when his vessel was lost in a storm in the Solway. I have traced his ancestors for quite a way back, but have drawn a bit of a blank with Isabella. She married John in Liverpool in 1881 and they lived in Palnackie, where she died in 1897. Her death registration shows her parents as Matthew Dornes and Helen Ross. I have no idea where they came from and whilst there are quite a few Helen Ross's of the time (circa 1830), try as I may, I can't find a Matthew Dornes. I have tried every way of spelling his surname, without success. Has anyone out there any ideas, or matches
Bryan
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: AMBLY on Saturday 19 September 09 13:00 BST (UK)
Hi Bryan

This would be Isabella in Census 1891 with her children - John has already been lost?
1891 Census in Parish of Buittle, Kirkcudbrightshire (in which lies Palnackie)
Widow/Pauper: Isabella BLACK 31, b Rerrick, Kirkcudbrightshire


http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KKD/Rerrick/index.html
Rerrick "The parish has borne, at different periods, the names of Dundrennan, Monkton, and Rerwick, or Rerrick.

This could be her in 1861? (Age is a bit out compared to 1891 Census. But better matches the age (40) Isabella BLACK nee DORNES was registered as at death in 1897.  How old was Isabella when she married John?) :

1861: High Street, Kirkcudbright, Kirkcudbrightshire
Parish 871, Ed 3, pg 9, HS 42
Head: Helen DORANS 37, Out door Worker, b Kirkcudbright
Son: Matthew DORANS 14, b Kirkcudbright
Dau: Mary DORANS 11, b Kirkcudbright
Dau: Janet DORANS 8, b Kirkcudbright
Dau: Isabella DORANS 5, b Kirkcudbright
Son: James DORANS 6, b Kirkcudbright

Will have a look at 1851 & 1871

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: AMBLY on Saturday 19 September 09 13:24 BST (UK)
1851: Balgredden Cottage, Kircudbright, Kircudbrightshire
Parish 871, Ed 3a, pg 11, HS 37
Head: Mathew DORAN 45, Ag Lab, b Ireland
Wife: Helen DORAN 30, b Kircudbright
Son: Mathew DORAN 4, b Kircudbright
Dau: Mary DORAN 2, b Kircudbright
Dau: Jessy DORAN 2 mnths  b Kircudbright


Isabella BLACK died in 1897 she was registered in Buittle  as age 40 (b abt 1857), other name DORNES.

Since DORAN is a known Irish name (got a good few of them myself <<sigh Irish research <<sigh>>>> ) I do suspect the name was entered incorrectly on her marriage lines, and whoever informed of her death  didn't know her maiden name and simply repeated  the name on the marriage lines - or else were illiterate and simply showed the marriage lines to the registering clerk who copied it down none the wiser? Something of that nature?

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: AMBLY on Saturday 19 September 09 13:41 BST (UK)
1871: High Street, Kirkcudbright, Kirkcudbrightshire
Parish 871, ED 1, pg 12. HS 75
Head: Ellen DORRANS 44, Agricultural Labourer , b Kirkcudbright
Son: James DORRANS 17, Wood Forrester. b Kirkcudbright
Dau: Isabella DORRANS 15, Scholar, b Rerwick, Kirkcudbrightshire
Son: Charles DORRANS 9, Scholar, b Kirkcudbright

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: kingy011 on Saturday 19 September 09 14:18 BST (UK)
Hi Ambly,
Thank you so much for your help. We have spent a lot of time walking up blind alleys, not seeing what we should...but I suppose that is the challenge. Yes, we wondered if illiteracy was a big part, plus the phonetics tend to match, so the registrars would have recorded their interpretation and the informants may have been none the wiser!
We knew that Isabella was a name that was 'taboo' in the family. My grandmother knew little of her at all and, apparently, was met with a wall of silence when she asked questions. We did find out through research that she  had a daughter (Dornes) about 4 years after her husband died...probably explains things!
Again, many thanks for the info,
Best wishes,
Bryan
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: AMBLY on Saturday 19 September 09 14:23 BST (UK)
Hi Bryan

It does seem to all fit, doesn't it - I'm glad  ;D
Seems Isabella wasn't the only one, as her mother Helen appears to have had a child in 1862 when I suspect her husband may have been deceased in 1857:

IGI extracted entry:
BIRTH: 11 Feb 1862, Kirkcudbright
Charles DORRANS
Mother: Hellen DORRANS
(Father not named)

Now here's the thing:

Mathew DORAN......

A**ces**Y transcribe him as 15 in 1851, clearly an error -  and  Scotland's People have him as 45.
If Helen is a widow by 1861 (need to check SP for that), then he died between 1851 and 1861.
There is a death on SP of a Mathew DORRAN in 1857 registered Kirkcudbright age 73.

Thinking it could be his father...and that perhaps his son, Helen's husband died before 1855....BUT

In 1841, the only one I see is:

1841: Marks Mansion St - Kirkcudbright, Kirkcudbrightshire
Matthew DORAN 50, Agri Sevant, b Ireland
Catherine DORAN 49, b Ireland

and in 1851, the only one I see is Helen's husband.
Perhaps he was really 65 in 1851, not 45 (4 and 6 misread?) or else the Death Index age is incorrect  ???

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: kingy011 on Saturday 19 September 09 14:51 BST (UK)
Hi ,
Wow! Started out today with nothing..now need a strong coffee to take it all in! Many, many thanks
Bryan  :)
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: KirstyG on Saturday 19 September 09 18:35 BST (UK)
Hi Bryan

If you post a request someone might have a headstone transcription for some of this family which could help sort out the generations.

Gadget had posted an offer of MI lookups a while ago, and one or two other folk have MI books for various parishes, so you might get lucky.

Kirsty

added: If the 1851 census was misread by SP then it was also misread by the Dumries and Galloway archives people.
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: kingy011 on Sunday 20 September 09 08:36 BST (UK)
Thanks Kirsty..will have a go at that
Cheers,
Bryan
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: Ratchete on Wednesday 23 October 13 00:18 BST (UK)
Hey there,

Wish I'd checked this thread first before SP & Ancestry.  I've been looking for the birth/1851/1861 details of a Mary Pickup nee Downs b.1850 in Kirkcudbright.  I've found her marriage to George Pickup in 1874 and her father is given as Matthew Downs farmer.  I think Downs may be a corruption of Doran(s); given the mix of Irish/Scots/Lancastrian accents it could be possible.  Mary would be a sister of Isabella.  Mary & George called their first child Elizabeth Ellen possibly after her granny Helen.

What are your thoughts?

I may have to spend a little more money & get Mary's death cert. (Lancashire) to see if her mother's name is mentioned.

Yours

Ratchete
Title: Re: Black - Dornes
Post by: Johnner Kid on Thursday 31 October 13 15:44 GMT (UK)
Here is a 20th Cn Dorans / Ross connection.
MI in Kirkcowan graveyard (New Section)

Erected by Peter DORANS
In Memory of
His wife, Mary Ann ROSS, who died at Barneight 26th July 1920 aged 74 years
Also the above Peter DORANS, who died at Barneight 13th Octr 1925 aged 81 years

Sy