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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: Eidde on Tuesday 29 September 09 13:24 BST (UK)
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Hi All
I’m trying to get some information on my ggrandmother, Elizabeth Boyd Kerr – she was born in France of Scottish descent, spent most of her life in Hong Kong and is proving quite elusive. I’ve got her death certificate, but no marriage cert (no luck with SP or the Hong Kong GRO) and no birth cert (her birthday was 11 Jul 1884, but I don’t know which town in France).
I know that she visited Scotland in 1920/1 and stayed at 35 Gordon St, Paisley, and I’m hoping this was a relative. Does anyone know of a way of getting the name of the person living there at the time? Electoral rolls, census, perhaps?
I’d also like to get people’s opinions on the following: I thought the ‘Boyd Kerr’ might have come from her mother and father respectively, but as she seems to have had a French mother, this seems unlikely. I then thought that her father might have been a ‘Boyd Kerr’ himself and so I searched SP for any candidates. I found a few, but Andrew BK, son of John Kerr and Elizabeth Boyd, who gave at least two of their children the Boyd middle name, stood out. On Andrew’s birth record (b. 1846) the place of birth is given as 25 Gordon’s Lane, Paisley. Gordon’s Lane is also the address for the family in the 1841 census, but later censuses show them in Lonend, just around the corner. Gordon’s Lane doesn’t exist anymore, apparently having been replaced by Gordon St - where Elizabeth BK stayed in 1921. Is this more than a coincidence?
Thanks for any advice
Eddie
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Hi Eddie, I can possibly offer you a bit of help with your Kerrs in Paisley. The John & Elizabeth, with baby son Gavin, at 25 Gordon's Lane in 1841 are John Kerr & Elizabeth Boyd, so I think that says where the Boyd came from. Although John & Elizabeth moved subsequently it's interesting to look at their neighbours in Gordon's Lane. At No. 26 is William Boyd, aged 50, a merchant. I would have thought it possible that Elizabeth's parents names were Andrew & Elizabeth, hence the Boyd middle name, but William could easily be a relative.
At No. 27 is Gavin Kerr & his family. Gavin was John's uncle. John's father was Thomas Kerr & they were the sons of John Kerr & Janet Dunlop. One of their sisters, Isabella, was my gg grandmother. Anyway, Gavin was still at 27 when he died in 1870 so it's possible that the property remained in the family, changing it's number/street name over time. I think the best way to find out who was in the property in 1921/22 is the Post Office Directory. I can look at that but it may take a few weeks before I can manage to get to the library.
Blanche
Me again -John is the son of Gavin, not Thomas. Thomas's John was born 2 years earlier. Makes it even more likely that Gordon's Lane remained in the onwership of the family.,
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Hi Blanche
It was really exciting to get your message with all that information. Thank you very much. I guess that if my Elizabeth Boyd Kerr is in fact descended from the line of Kerrs you’ve investigated, then we’re cousins of some sort. Nice to meet you!
I’d really appreciate it if you were able to investigate who lived at 35 Gordon St in 1920/21, but no hurry. I’m pretty confident now it’ll be a Kerr (or maybe Boyd). Your comment about re-numbering the houses in the street made sense – the gap between 25 Gordon's lane and 35 Gordon St was worrying me.
I had already come across William Boyd –Pigot’s Commercial Directory of Scotland (1837) has him as a shawl and plaid manufacturer at 27 Gordon’s Lane. I can’t quite make out Gavin Kerr’s occupation in the various censuses – but it definitely has to do with cotton thread and he ended up an employer. Do you think Elizabeth Boyd might have been William’s daughter and that John Kerr married ‘the girl next door’?
Thanks again. I'm in Sydney - if there's anything I can help with, please let me know.
Eddie
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I have a copy of the 1912 Paisley Directory and General Advertiser. In the street guide there is no Gordon's Lane. There is a Gordon Place, described as King Street (West) and Gordon Street, described as the east side of 32 Causeyside Street to Burn row.
There is a a brief listing of names in the Street Directory - at 35 Gordon Street, the names are:-
Regent Art Studio; Robert Thomson; Janet Kerr; Andrew Jackson; James Wood.
There is no number 27 listed - it jumps from 25 to 29 Gordon Street.
Regards
Murphyz
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Ah ha Murphyz, you've just solved the problem! Janet Kerr was one of the daughters of John Kerr & Elizabeth Boyd. She died at 35 Gordon Street in 1932 so is obviously the person Eddie's Elizabeth visited in 1921. Janet, her brother Gavin & sister Elizabeth never married & lived together. Gavin died in 1896 at 28 Orchard Street, after which Janet & Elizabeth moved to 1 Calside Place. Elizabeth died in 1900 & sometime between then & 1912 Janet must have moved to Gordon Street where she remained until her death.
That accounts for 3 of the 6 children & I've got John in Paisley until 1896 - he was the death informant for Gavin & gave his address as 1 Bute Place, Neilston Road. It looks, therefore, that Eddie's Elizabeth Boyd Kerr is the daughter of either Andrew or Thomas, neither of whom I can find after the 1861 census (although there's a possible sighting of Thomas in 1871 as an Able Seaman on board the RN vessel Gladiator in Montevideo harbour). Elizabeth's death information was John Gillespie, a cousin & Janet's was someone who looks like E. A. Parker & is described as "paternal niece" of Osterley in Middlesex. Anyone any idea what a paternal niece is? Does that mean a niece of her father, i.e. a cousin?
Eddie - does Elizabeth's d.c. not give any indication of her parent's names?
Blanche
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Blanche and Murphyz
Thanks for your great detective work! The death informant on Janet Kerr’s d.c is not E. A. Parker, but E. B. Baker – Elizabeth Boyd Kerr’s married name – connection made!
So I suppose paternal niece means a niece through the father’s line i.e. Janet’s brother. The question for me is which brother. My money’s on Andrew as he is the only male (that I can see) with Boyd as a middle name.
Elizabeth Boyd Kerr’s d.c. has no information on it about her parents – it just states France as place of birth. I knew there was a French connection somewhere but I thought it was further back. Now it seems her mother may have been French, but it’s still a mystery what Andrew (if it was him) was doing in France and how they all got to Hong Kong.
For some reason Boulogne comes to my mind. I’m going to check with the local LDS centre, as I believe they have records for that region and other Channel ports.
Blanche, when I’ve had time to digest all the latest, I might get back to you to ask some questions about the earlier Kerrs you mentioned in your first post.
Thanks once again
Eddie
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It's great what several heads can come up with :) Do let me know how you get on with Elizabeth's mother (pity she didn't die in Scotland, then you'd have had a really informative d.c.!). I'd be happy to sent you the other info i've got on the Kerrs - not all that much as they seem to have a habit of disappearing without trace!
Best wishes
Blanche
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Hi Blanche
I haven't got any further with Elizabeth Boyd Kerr's mother yet, but I have traced my line back to John Kerr and Janet Dunlop pretty conclusively. It seems that their son Gavin (your ggg uncle?) married twice - first to Catherine Smith in 1809 and then to Jean/Jane Hogg in 1823 - I don't know whether you came across this. Gavin was informant on his son John's d.c. (1866) where John's mother is given as Catherine Smith. On Gavin's own d.c. (1870) he is described as the widower of Jean Hogg. I haven't yet been able to find anything more on what happened to Catherine.
Does your research take you back any further than Kerr/Dunlop? And do you have any info on them?
Eddie
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Hi Eddie (distant cousin!)
I've got a bit more information on the Kerr/Dunlop family. I'll p.m. you shortly with details.
Blanche
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I'll look forward to it - 4th cousin twice removed! (I think - I never was very good at working those things out).
Eddie
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Not sure where you have reached in your searches but having just found this request thought I would add my piece. Gavin Kerr (1787-1870) is my GGGGrandfather married to Catherine Smith in 1809 and had 8 children (7girls and 1 son) one of whom Isabella (1820-74) is my GGGrandmother married to William Gillespie in 1849. (Gavin subsequently married Jean Hogg in 1823 and had 2 further children) You can find a picture of Gavin Kerr in the Paisley Museum and his obituary in Paisley Library. His will is also available through Scotlands People website which gives a good rundown of his family.
He was a thread manufacturer - John Kerr & Sons - his father John Kerr was married to Janet Dunlop in 1778- they had 4 children - Gavin, Thomas John and Agnes. Their house address was 27 Gordon's Lane and the Manufactory at 28 Gordon's Lane. Hope this is of some interest
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Hello mabl
Another distant cousin! We'll have enough for a reunion soon! :)
Gavin was my GGGGrandfather too and I'm descended from his son John. Blanched (see above) is also descended from Isabella.
Thanks for the extra information. I might have a look at Gavin's will in due course, but I think the picture and the obituary will be beyond my reach for some time. Is the picture a photo or a painting? Do you know where the obituary appears - is it an old newspaper?
Eddie
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Hello mabl,
How interesting to hear from another distant cousin. I'm not descended from your Isabella but from John Kerr & Janet Dunlop's daughter Isabella. She was baptised on 9 February 1800. I've got a couple of other children for John & Janet too (all on the IGI) - James, baptised 12 Mar 1795 & Janet baptised 4 Oct 1798 (2 earlier Janets b. 11 Mar 1790 & Janet b. 7 Nov 1793 must have died in infancy). I have information on the descendents of Gavin, John & Isabella but not on any of the others.
I'm interested in the 8 children to Gavin & Catherine. I've only got 6 - Janet, Agnes, Catherine, Margaret, John & Isabella. I have no information on Margaret apart from her birth but have been able to follow up the others & the 1 surviving daughter of Gavin's 2nd marriage, Jean born 1826.
Best wishes, BlancheD
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Sorry not to respond before. I have the words of the obituary from a newspaper in Paisley Library archives but forgot to get the reference. Also will need to check out the picture - he was in a group of Paisley worthies. Will try to visit the Museum this week and get back to you.
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Many thanks for this, Mabl. I managed to get a transcription of the obituary - one of the librarians at the Paisley Library was kind enough to do that for me. But any help you can provide with the picture would be much appreciated.
All the best
Eddie
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Hello!
Eidde, I was very surprised to find someone mentioning EBK on the internets...and can only think that with names like DeSales in your signature and a residence of Sydney, you are my uncle!
If so, hello.
If not, hello, and how are you related? :)
I have EBK's birth cert scan if you'd like it, along with some photos. Her father was indeed Thomas Kerr.
Would be keen to hear what you have on the French side too!
D
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Hi D
I am indeed your uncle - nice to hear from you!
I'll send you a personal message - you may not be able to reply through the same system (until you have made 3 posts here) so I'll include an email address.
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I visited Paisley Museum at the weekend and found the painting that I had previously mentioned. It is of a group of Paisely men at Paisley Cross in 1868. I was wrong to say it included Gavin Kerr it is in fact William Gillespie (my gt gt grandfather) who married Gavin Kerr's daughter isabella. The painting is by James F Christie and I was told it had only recenly come out of store for the current exhibition that is on. There is also a John Kerr in the painting which has a Key to identify all the characters in it. Not sure if that is a relative. I found a copy of this painting in a book entitled The Paisley Thread Industry by Matthew Blair published in 1907.
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Hi mabl
Thank you so much for taking the trouble to check up on the painting. A few weeks ago I managed to get hold of a copy of the book and to scan the picture you refer to. I don't think the John Kerr in the picture is a relative - or, if he is, I haven't yet worked out how he's related.
Thanks again for trying
Eddie
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Hello Eidde,
Your message confirms that you and I are related by marriage, so we are cousins-in-law or something like that, and I have in fact met D a few times, also related. You and I have never had the opportunity to meet, so I am very pleased to correspond with you Eidde and I send greetings from the cold and snowy North. Hello to D. as well.
Elizabeth Boyd Kerr's mother was one Sophie Mascot born in Boulogne, France, thought to be about 1865 and died in about 1920. This is anecdotal and we have no certificates to prove anything - the information comes from notes taken by a family member in conversation with EBK, including the following: EBK was born in Boulogne, Sur-Mer in 1884. She attended St. Winifred's in Torquay in 1900 and then the Pensionnat de Mme. Bouvier & Marx (Not sure about the spelling! Can't read the hand-writing) in Boulogne in 1901. Then she went to Hendry's Glasgow Business College in 1902.
After that the family moved (back?) to Hong Kong. There EBK met Samuel Baker, 2nd engineer to Thomas Kerr, Chief Engineer on the S.S. Hang Sang. (Thomas Kerr was an engineer both on ships and then at the China Sugar Refinery at the end of his career.) EBK and Sam married on December 19, 1905. Their four daughters were all born in Hong Kong, and the three eldest, Sophie, Dorothy and Helen all attended boarding school at a very young age in Torquay, travelling alone by ship from Hong Kong. There is a story that the school in Torquay was chosen because it was run by a French relative or friend of either EBK or her mother Sophie Mascot. Possibly the same school as EBK attended? The girls usually spent their school holidays with their uncle, Sir John Baker, Governor of Broadmoor. Samuel retired in 1929 and the family moved back to the UK. He died in 1935.
I have in my possession a rather dilapidated little album, an autograph book that EBK kept, and in it are several contributions from visitors and special friends, and luckily most of them are dated and show the location where they were written. Most of the writing is beautiful calligraphy, but it is now so faded that it is not always readable. I can confirm that EBK was in Boulogne in 1901, Paisley, Cotford and Torquay in 1902, and Hong Kong in 1903, although there is a rather touching letter from her mother saying goodbye to her in December 1903 (did she go back to the UK for a visit?) The book is full of poems and homilies (some French, some English) and some pencil sketches. EBK was in Hong Kong in May 1905, but we don't know if her marriage took place there or back in the UK in December. She transcribed the entire toast to the bride and groom made by a long-time family friend at her wedding reception into her little book. The speech makes reference to her being the result of the blending of the blood of the lily of France and the heather of Scotland! He calls EBK an East Point maiden - an indication of where they were? EBK also has contributions to her album on two ships - S.S. Sanuki Maru in December 1902, when the poem makes reference to her mother as well, and then the S.S. Kum Sang in 1910. Perhaps some ship's passenger lists would tell us more. The latter was a Jardine Mathieson ship. I will at some point make a copy of this little book if you are interested.
Now for my request. Captain Boyd - I am sure you have heard the story of his supposed portrait. He was the brother of Elizabeth Boyd (1816-1883), married to John Kerr. He was EBK's great-uncle and she claimed that he sailed the China seas in the mid 1800s. I have done some research on ships registers in the National Archives at Kew, but I don't have enough to go on. Does anyone have any information on him? I don't even have a first name, nor where he was born so I have reached a dead end with him. Elizabeth was the daughter of Andrew Boyd and Janet Bryson, both c1780. Hopefully my emails have been forwarded on to you. Do you also have a family tree somewhere that I can look at? I would be delighted to share mine with you.
All the best, I will write a little more on what I know about EBK's uncles and aunts soon.
J.
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Hi,there,just thout i would ask if it could be poss if you have a matilda kerr married to my grandad laurence diffin he was born in scotland and had kerr family in canada and Ireland as well as scotland i dont no really much abt her and she died befor i was born in abt 1949. kind regards Teressa
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Hello Teressa
I haven't come across a Matilda Kerr in the Kerrs I've investigated so far - nor any Diffins. If you can provide some more details on places and dates, I'm sure people in this forum would be happy to help you search.
All the best
Eddie
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Hello Eddie, Thank you for yr reply kind regards Teressa :)
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Hi,
I am very interested in your Matilda Kerr I wonder fdo you knoe her parents names I have been looking for a woman of that name for a long time born c 1870
Jessie
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Think the Kerr's were related to the Gillespies in some way.Not exactly sure how. However in terms of Jean Hogg was she married on 28 November 1830 to a Robert(Bowie) Gillespie by any chance and did William Gillespie have a brother called Robert with links to Denny.? p.s. in terms of the Duffin family have you tried the first name of Ellen or it's variations.?
m.
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In relation to the Kerr family we are looking at here, Jean/Jane Hogg married Gavin Kerr 17 May 1823. Isabella Kerr (1820-1874), a daughter of Gavin's by his first marriage to Catherine Smith, married William Gillespie 22 Dec 1849. William Gillespie was the son of Jean Mair and either John or William Gillespie (2 names on 2 different certificates).
BlancheD
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I am related to a Robert Gillespie of Denny(Originally Alloa) who had a brother called William Gillespie but as this is the case when searching for Robert found a Hogg marriage to Robert Gillespie. My Robert Gillespie was originally from Alloa and the one who married a Hogg with the same name Jean/Jane Hogg was born in Tillicoultry.Maybe they are the same people maybe they are related people with the same name. Don't really know.Robert(my family) was born in June 1821 and we have some kerr relatives but don't know how exactly.
The First names,were always passed down so some people may have the same name.
M.
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All my family are firmly rooted in Renfrewshire, mainly Paisley. Jean Hogg (1785-1864) was born in Paisley, the daughter of William Hogg who married Jean Blackwood in 1774 in Renfrew. William Gillespie (1819-1877) was also born in Paisley so it seems unlikely that your Gillespies & Kerrs are the same family.
Neither name is particuarly unusual so it wouldn't be surprising if different families from other parts of Scotland married each other.
B
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I've just done some checking with the IGI. My William Gillespie was baptised in Paisley & his parents are shown as William Gillespie & Jean Mair. However, there is also a William Gillespie shown who was born 11 Jan 1819 in Denny to Andrew Gillespie & Mary Smith. Andrew & Mary were married 23 Jan 1818. A parent search on Andrew & Mary shows, in addition to William: James b. 1820, James Smith b. 1830, Mary 1832, George 1840, Jane 1842, Elizabeth 1834, Janet 1828. These are all extracts so should be fairly reliable. There is no Robert but there is a Robert listed in 1826 as the son of Andrew Gillespie & Margaret Smith. This is also an extract so it looks as if it could be a mis-recording. These look most likely for your family.
B
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Thank you Blanched that certainly clarifies something I have been looking into.
Many Thanks.
T.
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I don't know if any of you with an interest in the Paisley Kerrs are still reading these posts. If so, I have been re-visiting this part of my tree and have discovered the death of Sophie Mascot. She died on 25 March 1906 in the Royal Alexandra Infirmary, Paisley of uterine cancer. Her usual residence is given as 1 Calside Place (where her sisters-in-law also lived) and her death is registered by her son
M. T. (Martial Thomas) Kerr. The certificate no. is 573/1 Paisley no. 358. There are also probate records.
BlancheD
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Thanks, Blanche. I'll PM you.