RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Denise Ford on Sunday 06 March 05 20:45 GMT (UK)
-
Were death certificates issued for War deaths in the same way that normal deaths were recorded? I know my relative James Woodall was born 1885 and died "going over the top" in the war but sadly no-one remember his regiment - I can't find him in the war graves records and apart from a photo of him in uniform (you can't see the regimental badges) taken "circa 1915" I have no other information. If I can find his death certificate will it give me any insight as to his war career?
-
Hi Denise,
Have a look at this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,15589.0.html
It may help you.
It is unlikely that any useful information can be gleaned about his war career from his death certificate. His army records, held at the National Archives are more likely to help, but many of those were destroyed or at least burnt during WW2.
Have you found his medal card on the National Archives site yet? Have you tried Woodhall as opposed to Woodall? There are 11 James Woodall soldiers listed who received medals. The medal roll will at least give his regiment and number which makes a further search at the National Archives a lot easier. I've not done it myself, I'm only going on hearsay.
Good luck.
Nell
-
Thanks Nell! Yes, I've tried the National Archives medal rolls - out of the 11 James Woodalls there I reckon he could be one of 3 - he was born Bermondsey area so unlikely to have been in one of those regiments from other counties (but I'm guessing at that even)... I hadn't even thought of using the overseas records on 1837online... I'll try that now. As his death appears on no memorals - I've tried the commonwealth war graves records and roll of honour and not found him - I figure he was listed as missing in action, and I know his body was not repatriated... so was thinking perhaps even now he is still listed as missing rather than dead?
My grandmother tells me (he was her uncle) that he joined up and came home to say only to his mother "goodbye, I won't be coming home...". Sadly, his prophesy was true. :'(
Edited to say: Found a few possibles:
James, RHF regiment
James, Ches regiment
James, Nrth Fus regiment
and JW, YLI regiment
Would anyone know if RHF is Royal Highland Fusiliers?
Ches? Cheshire?
If so, they'd be unlikely to be my James' regiments - but what is Nrth Fus and YLI? Yorkshire Light Infantry? If so I guess unlikely to be my man... that leaves Nrth Fus.... but wouldn't that be Northumberland Fusiliers? would a Londoner be in a northern regiment? There don't appear to be any "southern regiments" and interestingly the 3 James Woodalls on the medal rolls I thought would be mine are: Rifle Brigade, Army Service Corps and Royal Fusiliers - none of which are dead according to the above info from the GRO! ??? ::)
Any ideas?
-
If he was missing then he would be 'missing presumed dead' and would still be recorded in the Commonwealth War Graves records. Several of my ancestors were 'missing' but are still listed. Is it possible he survived ?? My GG Uncle survived but I spent many months looking for records of his death as we all thought he had died.
Ish
-
No, it's known he died... if he was missing and then came back, he never came back to the family and I just can't see him coming back and becoming anonymous... the family were too closely knit - and there wouldn't have been any reason for him not to have come back... I too thought if he was missing he'd have been recorded somewhere - although is it possible he is one of the dead recorded as an unknown soldier?
Also... interestingly... i can't find his birth certificate either. In the 1901 census he is down as James Woodall, in the family he is known as "Jim", which makes sense. In 1901 he was 16 so he would have been born around 1885, yet I can't find him then or in 1884 or 1886. I wonder if he actually had another christian name? If so, I don't think i'll ever find him... let alone his war career.
-
You've hit a really strange one here!! I think you may be right and that he has another name. Most of the unknown soldiers are (apparently) the ones listed as missing since they would just have a pile of bodies and a list of missing soldiers which they could not match up. It is a shame that you don't have his regiment or that would help you. However, if you know when he was born and where, you could check 1837 online to see if there were any other babies in that area with a different first name - just a thought since you're clutching at straws!!
Possum_pie
-
Could this be your man (the age given is a bit iffy though)?
8550 L/Sgt James Palmerer Woodall, 2/Royal Munster Fusiliers. Died of wounds 21.10.15, France/Flanders. Born Walworth, resided Borough (both adjacent to Bermondsey), enlisted Stratford, Essex. He is listed on the CWGC site as Woodhall. This is from Soldiers Died in the Great War. There are discrepancies in both sets on information. He is listed on the Medal Rolls at the NA though as a Corporal.
CWGC information:
WOODHALL
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lance Serjeant
Regiment: Royal Munster Fusiliers
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Age: 26
Date of Death: 21/10/1915
Service No: 8550
Additional information: Son of Mrs. Woodhall, of 59, Wilford Rd., West Croydon.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 3. 36.
Cemetery: LES GONARDS CEMETERY, VERSAILLES
2/Royal Munster Fusiliers were part of the 3rd Brigade, 1st Division. In October 1915 they were involved in the the Battle of Loos. To have been buried so far away from Loos suggests he survived his wounds by at least a few days.
-
I was getting really excited there... the places would be close enough to be more than coincidental and the change of surname on CWGC would explain why I didn't find him:
but his mother lived in Southwark from her birth till her death... never once stepped foot in West Croydon... or any part of Croydon for that matter.
Sigh.... the mystery deepens...
-
OK, another option:
WOODALL, SAMUEL JAMES
Initials: S J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Rifleman
Regiment: London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles)
Unit Text: 1st/21st Bn.
Date of Death: 15/09/1916
Service No: 651512
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 13 C.
Cemetery: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
This man enlisted in Camberwell but lived in Long Lane which, if my time working for the MP for Bermondsey was not entirely wasted, is deep in the heart of Bermondsey. Also, as he appears on the Thiepval Memorial he was listed as 'missing in action'.
The 21st Londons were part of the 142 Brigade, 47th (2nd London) Division. On 15th September 1916 they were involved in an attack on High Wood, part of the Battle of the Somme. 2 officers and 60 men were left out of 17 officers and 550 men who went into action.
-
Now that's a strong possibility... I'll go back to the birth records and see if I can find a Samuel born 1885...
-
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you on this one!!
Possum_pie :)
-
Hi Denise
Have you checked the 1891 census to see if he was listed any differently?
Casalguidi
-
Hiya casalguidi
No, I admit I haven't... I committed the cardinal sin of knowing the family called him Jim, finding him in 1901 and assuming that because he was James, that that was his name...
I'll have to creep for someone to look up 1891 for me :)
-
Hi Denise,
How about this in 1891
15 Porter St, Southwark
James Woodall 6 his parents atr John and marion Southall
If this is of any use I can let you have details of the rest of the family
Sue
-
:-\
Nope... James' mother was Harriet Woodall.
He seems to have appeared...and disappeared..
Have also just heard from a lovely chap at Southwark Cathedral who tells me that James' name does not appear on their memorial - but that there are others in Southwark. Anyone have any idea where?
-
Doh! Sue I'm really stupid.
James mother wasn't Harriet, sorry trying to remember too many bits of my family at once without checking.
His father was John Woodall.... and his mother MARY ANN woodall... also known as Polly.
MARY ANN = MARION????
-
Right... thanks to Sue I've confirmed this John and Marion are in fact my family... John and Mary Ann (she was known as Polly so I doubt the misspelling was even noticed)...
However, it has confirmed James was still a James in 1891 census...
I've called my nan (who is James' niece) and asked if she knew if he had any other name, and she said he was always called Jim - her mother would say "if our Jim was here..." and her father John would throw his arms in the air in dispair.... :-\ A quaint story but it still doesn't help me put any history to that pic of James I have which has been carefully cherished since 1915... :-\
-
hello denise,i cant find james woodall anywhere,there were 12 j woodalls killed in the war and non fit him,ive listed them below if it helps.
1 name john
2 from stockport
3 from stoke
4 manchester
5 to old he was in his 40s
6 rochdale
7 officer name john
8 staffs
9 west brom
10 staffs
11 australian
12 castleford yorks
is there a church in southwark called st georges the martyr,if there is,he may be on their memorial.
is this his family.
parents john fish curer,mother mary
brothers,george,william and charles
sister mary
you say his mum was called harriett,could she be using her real first name in the census,all were born and lived in southwark,james,chas and george all had the same occupation as their dad,william was a builders clerk.unless he enlisted under another name,then i dont think he was killed.sorry i couldnt be more helpful,mack