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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Hunter51 on Sunday 04 October 09 10:59 BST (UK)

Title: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Hunter51 on Sunday 04 October 09 10:59 BST (UK)
Can anyone help me I am trying to find a Benjamin Carr think he went to Australia in about 1853 possibly on the HAVILAH would there be a passenger list somewhere for him.

Thanks Alan...
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: krisesjoint on Sunday 04 October 09 11:09 BST (UK)
Hi Alan,

Where was Benjamin from? Can you give us some more information please?

Please see

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,368728.0.html

The Havilah, to my knowledge was a coastal steamer.

I have it bringing family from Melbourne to Adelaide in 1854

Cheers Kris  :)
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: krisesjoint on Sunday 04 October 09 11:57 BST (UK)
Looks like the HAVILAH must have done more than the coastal trade. It is mentioned in the shipping gazette that the Havilah - steamer from London 2 July arrived in Melbourne 17 Oct 1853 with 11 passengers on board. It is listed on Prov Unassisted Passenger List but alas no Benjamin CARR aboard.

http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide050/PROVguide050.jsp

Kris  :)
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Hunter51 on Sunday 04 October 09 12:06 BST (UK)
Thank's  Kris Benjamin was born in 1823 Longbenton Northumberland he was a Mining engineer he went to Canada got married 1849 to Jane Wilkinson thay had a daughter Sarah Jane Carr, came back to England then they as far as I can think went to Australia and thats where I have lost him.

Alan...
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Hunter51 on Friday 01 October 10 18:07 BST (UK)
Could anyone check the  HEMPSYKE   I have been told it arrived in Australia 16 Aug 1853  to see if Benjamin Carr was aboard.

Thanks Alan...
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: tropicalj on Friday 01 October 10 22:44 BST (UK)
You can search  on  the link the Kris has given you
but no there is no B enjamin Carr on  that voyage either


Can you tell us his parents names please and why you think he came to Australia

Jenn
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Aussie1947 on Saturday 02 October 10 02:01 BST (UK)

Sydney Directory 1885 (Sands)

Clarence Street

185, Carr Benjamin, boarding house.

Maybe your Benjamin!

Gerry
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Hunter51 on Saturday 02 October 10 12:06 BST (UK)
Thanks

Benjamin Carr b1823 was a Mining engineer he went to Canada Nova Scotia around 1850s  were his daughter was born Sarah Jane, he is not on the 1861 census but his wife Jane b1827 and daughter Sarah Jane b 1851 are thay are living with Janes sister Margaret Wilkinson in Newcastle.  Benjamin's brother Joseph Carr went to Australia  and we think he went with him. There Parents were Aaron and Sarah Carr of Walker,
on the 1871 census Sarah Jane is a servant for the John Tweddell  in Walker, no sign of Benjamin or Jane.  on the 1881 census Benjamin's wife Jane is a widower in Gateshead living with her daughter Sarah Jane Gray and Matthew Gray.
There was a  clipping in an Australian news paper saying that a Joseph and Benjamin Carr mining engineers had put in a patient for a Pump,
So Benjamin died before 1881 but where? 

Alan...
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 02 October 10 13:26 BST (UK)
That Patent was registered 1858 in Victoria, Australia.

Specifications for registration of patent by Benjamin Carr and Joseph Carr titled - A new and useful improvement in pumps; 1858.

http://www.naa.gov.au/
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 02 October 10 13:35 BST (UK)
There is no matching death registration for a Benjamin CARR in any state of Australia up to 1920.

Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Hunter51 on Saturday 02 October 10 13:49 BST (UK)
Thanks

So if he did not die in Australia he must have gone to another Country like South Africa, or back to Canada.
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 02 October 10 14:03 BST (UK)
As you only think Benjamin came here & don't have any proof that he ever arrived here he could be anywhere.

The patent registration doesn't prove it was your Benjamin unless you wish to order copies of the files to read them to see if it contains anything that may help you with your research.
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 02 October 10 14:11 BST (UK)
There are quite a lot of death registrations for the name of Benjamin CARR that died in the UK between 1851 - 1881.

Have you searched & eliminated all of those as anyone of them could be him.
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Hunter51 on Saturday 02 October 10 14:29 BST (UK)
How would I get copy's of the files
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 02 October 10 14:42 BST (UK)
Information on how to order copies of files here:

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/research/order-copies/index.aspx
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Grumpy Peter on Thursday 02 April 20 02:58 BST (UK)
Hi Hunter51 or Hi Alan, Benjamin Carr did not return home to Tyneside. In 1898 his daughter Sarah Jane now married to Matthew Gray placed an advert in the Evening Chronicle on three successive Saturdays asking for information about him. She last heard of him in the Melbourne area then nothing since 1868. It looks like she died not knowing what became of him. They would have had to declare him dead to unlock any money they had so legal papers may exist somewhere. He possibly travelled to Sydney as a Ben Carr of the correct age shows up there. All avenues are open but it looks like he did not die in Australia.

Can anyone help with the Sailing to Sydney and thereafter?
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: judb on Thursday 02 April 20 05:00 BST (UK)
From New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists,
Passenger list for ship You Yangs, from Melbourne to Sydney, arriving 13 September 1872,  shows a Benjamin CARR.  There's no information about him other than his name for this coastal voyage.

There is an inquest for a Benjamin CARR, May 1875 in Sydney but a death index entry which seems to correspond gives an age of 32 years so too young for your man.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130499543

There is another inquest dated 23 August 1875 for a Benjamin CARR, died in Coonamble, natural causes.  No information about age etc and I cannot see a death index entry on NSW BMDs.

What is the reference for the Ben CARR in Sydney?

Also, as an aside, the 1881 census entry where Jane is described as a widow may not necessarily be correct as she may have just decided that he'd been gone long enough for her to use that term. 

Judith



Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: shume on Thursday 02 April 20 12:29 BST (UK)
Taking a lateral view, I decided to look at his brother Joseph Carr, to see if that gave any clues.
Joseph b 1825 (  he is aged 16  with Benjamin on 1841 UK census.) I can't find him after that in England.
But as they were here for the gold rush, and were associated with mining and developing a pump, perhaps they went to Bendigo/ Ballarat. There is a death entry for Joseph Carr age 66 in 1892 ( so born c 1826) "miner formerly of Bendigo, died intestate in Kew Asylum" Parents unknown.
I was hoping for a few clues re Benjamin, but no luck there.
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: majm on Thursday 02 April 20 23:44 BST (UK)
TROVE .... https://trove.nla.gov.au/

Geelong Advertiser, 26 Feb 1863
A letter to the editor from Benjamin CARR, Engineer,

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148906369

JM
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Grumpy Peter on Friday 03 April 20 01:26 BST (UK)
Thank you majm. I am reading this as Benjamin Carr giving an expert opinion in a dispute between a mine manager and engineer. Could the outcome of this dispute have re bounded on Benjamin resulting in him no longer being able to work as a mining engineer?
It’s certainly food for thought.

Peter A Or Grumpy Peter
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Grumpy Peter on Friday 03 April 20 01:37 BST (UK)
Hi judb thank you for this.
The reference for Benjamin Carr in Sydney is Sands Directory Of Sydney 1885 showing a Benjamin Carr running a boarding house at 185 Clarence Street. It would be interesting to find out if he had any family with him and his age.
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Grumpy Peter on Friday 03 April 20 01:47 BST (UK)
Hi Hume, thank you for responding.
 
Joseph Carr brother of Benjamin was an insolvent publican living in Chilwell in 1861. He died in 1871 and his re married not long after. I felt that this may have been a time that Benjamin decided to move on resulting in the journey to Sydney. Since I posted last night a letter has come to light on this post which is very interesting.
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Grumpy Peter on Friday 03 April 20 01:55 BST (UK)
Hi again judb.

Almost forgot, I think Benjamin’s wife Jane May have been looking for him in that area around 1879 as their daughter Sarah Jane Carr was married on 25 December of that year and neither parent was at the wedding. On the 1881 census she states she is a widow, I think she may have declared him dead to unlock any estate or assets they had. Only an assumption by me.
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: shume on Friday 03 April 20 02:39 BST (UK)
Hi now I am really confused:
Firstly in 1868 Joseph and Benjamin register a patent for a pump in Australia. Now Joseph is supposed to be a publican in ? England dying in 1871. This cannot be the same man.
There is a Joseph Carr dying Sydney who was a publican and running a house of disrepute but this is not Benjamin's brother.
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Grumpy Peter on Friday 03 April 20 12:53 BST (UK)
Hi shume the pump was patented in 1858 not 1868. The facts about Joseph are correct, they come from his descendants this is Australia we are talking about not England. I have lots of stuff from them about Joseph and he is well researched by them. They still live in Australia and NZ.
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: majm on Saturday 04 April 20 02:08 BST (UK)
Hi Hume, thank you for responding.
 
Joseph Carr brother of Benjamin was an insolvent publican living in Chilwell in 1861. He died in 1871 and his re married not long after. I felt that this may have been a time that Benjamin decided to move on resulting in the journey to Sydney. Since I posted last night a letter has come to light on this post which is very interesting.

I am probably misreading that, but how can he die in 1871 and then remarry not long after.


JM
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: Grumpy Peter on Sunday 05 April 20 02:34 BST (UK)
Hi majm sorry that should read his widow re married not long after.

Grumpy Peter
Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: majm on Sunday 05 April 20 06:26 BST (UK)
Thanks for sorting that bit out ...   something else is not making good sense to me ...

I think you may find that the Joseph CARR, publican was NOT the Joseph Carr, Engineer.    I can see TWO marriages at Vic BDM that may be of interest…  a Joseph CARR married in 1854 to Margaret MACKAY #3701/1854 and a Joseph CARR married in 1855 to an Amelia THOMAS #2766/1855.   Amelia and Joseph CARR as well as Margaret and Joseph CARR were registering babies born in the next several years after those two marriages.   Very very likely that would be indicating two chaps both named Joseph CARR.    (And of course there's also Joseph CARR,  son of a Joseph CARR, marrying in 1864 .... and a Joseph CARR in Melbourne, with the Wesleyans, a trustee, (unlikely to be a publican) ... all in the 1860s...  :D  - so possibly four by that name in that decade...


Geelong Advertiser, page 3.  - 27 Aug 1860
Among the articles turned out of Geelong workshops may deservedly be mentioned a very large new boiler for the Portarlington flour mill, ….which has been made by Mr Joseph Carr, engineer and millwright of Ryrie Street ….. the boiler makers engaged by Mr Carr for putting it together are Joseph Cartwright and George Bowley …. To show the repute in which Geelong boilers are held …. Large boiler …. Made and forwarded to Beechworth for a brewery there….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148885561/17542321   

Geelong Advertiser, page 3, - 17 April 1861
Renewal of publicans general licences Charles Carr, Cricket Club Hotel …
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148697806

Geelong Advertiser, page 3. -  16 Aug 1861
Abusive language Carr v Rosanna Cullan….  Mrs Carr, the landlady of the Cricket Club Hotel, Chilwell…. Mrs Carr had been confined the previous day ….  (confined as in gave birth ! – perhaps to twin sons, William and George, parents as Joseph and Margaret nee McKay,  Vic BDM #20794/1861 and #20795/1861)
Assault  Roseanna Cullan v Joseph Carr …

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/150309127

Geelong Advertiser, page 2. – 11 Dec 1861
Joseph Carr … an engineer, and was employed … to superintend certain repairs to a boiler belonging to the Portarlington Flour Mill company ….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149720333

Geelong Advertiser page 4, - 27 October 1862
Joseph Carr, Coronation Street ….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148903559

Geelong Advertiser, page 1 – 25 March 1863
Insolvent … Joseph Carr, Chilwell, licensed victualler,
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148907206

Geelong Advertiser , page 3. 4 Feb 1865
Joseph Carr’s 5 room cottage, frontage to Coronation Street …. Title complete.    
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148767447



JM


Title: Re: Benjamin CARR - immigration
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 05 April 20 08:06 BST (UK)
Yes, more than one Joseph CARR

The couple whom Peter's associates in research believe to be the right pair, were Joseph CARR and Margaret McKAY who married in 1854 in Vic (3701), I think.

Their certificate of marriage issued shortly after civil registration in Vic, should clearly give his origins and some family details.  perhaps this is the document the family history is based on.

Possibly the last of their children was born in Adelaide and died there in 1874, aged 4 years.

There is a death record also for Jos. CARR in 1871 and possibly this is the man of Peter's family history listings

Sue