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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Berkshire => Topic started by: janjim on Wednesday 14 October 09 22:30 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Was wondering if there was anyone on this site who could assist me to identify where a certain
property was around the 1850's. The name was Shoredean Farm, Shaw Cun Donnington.
We will be travelling around Newbury area in the not too distant future, coming from Australia, we would love to have a greater knowledge of the area, before we leave, for all of our planning.
Regards
janjim
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Hi JanJim
I couldnt see a Shoredean Farm but there is this one on an 1883 map called Showdean farm
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/mapsheet.aspx?compid=55107&sheetid=714&ox=682&oy=1901&zm=1&czm=1&x=632&y=157
ricky
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Ricky,
Thanks for this information, will check it out later,
regards
jan
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there is a SHAW FARM ROAD [more of a track] which leads off of LOVE LANE,which is in the exact area of the map.....50 metres west of KINGSLY CLOSE turning, and it leads to a farm[approx. 600m,ok?
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You are probably looking for Shaw Dene which was one of the farms between the old Oxford Road and the Hermitage Road. Access is off the Oxford Road, near to the Donnington Valley Hotel.
A search for Shaw Dene at www.streetmap.co.uk will find the house.
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Newbury chap and Byng,
Sorry I've taken a while to answer, but we have been away, thanks for this information.
Wonder if you could give any recommendations for staying at Newbury, like a B & B book that may be available, or Pubs around the area at a reasonable price.
Newbury Chap, there is so much to see around the area now that we've got all this history on our New family.
Thanks for all of your assistance.
jan
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The BACON ARMS HOTEL is about one mile from your rendevous......Chieveley travel lodge is 4m out of town[but cheaper].....THE PILGRIMS REST G/HOUSE is in Donnington,too...g/luck
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Thanks Byng, appreciate your help
jan
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I can't really recommend accomodation in Newbury - not having had the need to use it. Byng's options are probably reasonable.
The Chieveley travel lodge is in the motorway services, not the most wonderful surroundings but easy to get to.
Pilgrim's is not really in Donnington - which (in my book) begins a few hundred yards north, on the other side of the river Lambourn - but it's fairly convenient, and easy walk from the town and seems to have ample parking.
The Bacon is in the town, very convenient, plenty of parking and one of my favourite bars - but almost certainly more expensive. The food is okay, typical of a pub chain, cheapish and plentiful rather than gourmet.
There are others, the Newbury Tourist Information Centre should be able to let you have details.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thanks for this info, I've looked at Bacon Arms at the website, and it looks interesting. We're not too fussed about gourmet food, so long as it is good food. So long as we've got somewhere to park our hire car. We're going to check out the Swan Inn at Newtown, this is where Walter New was licensee some years back. Believe they have a good Sunday roast lunch. It's a shame the old Two Brewers and London Apprentice aren't still there !!!
Do you know much about Greater Faringdon, is there anything there much to look at, as this is where all of our New family originated.
Regards
Jan
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JANJIM.......We have some common ground !.....my g/mother was a barmaid at the SWAN NEWTOWN, about 1902- 1904...her canadian father[mr. william jordan] a former farmer from Manitoba,was the landlord there..
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thanks for this info, I've looked at Bacon Arms at the website, and it looks interesting. We're not too fussed about gourmet food, so long as it is good food. So long as we've got somewhere to park our hire car. We're going to check out the Swan Inn at Newtown, this is where Walter New was licensee some years back. Believe they have a good Sunday roast lunch. It's a shame the old Two Brewers and London Apprentice aren't still there !!!
Do you know much about Greater Faringdon, is there anything there much to look at, as this is where all of our New family originated.
Faringdon (or Great Faringdon as it used to be known) is a nice little town, well worth a visit. Easy to do as a trip from Newbury.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Just prompting my memory, did we talk previously about Walter New being the Licensee of the Swan Inn at Newtown, or are you only researching Newbury itself.
Jan
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Byng,
Small world isn't it, I'm not absolutely sure what year Walter New was the Licensee, have to be early 1900's, maybe Newbury Chap may be able to confirm that.
janjim
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I'm afraid I have tunnel vision when it comes to pubs - as the Swan is not in Newbury I have not collected any data unless the same newspaper item etc includes reference to a Newbury pub. Its a policy that has made the workload a bit more manageable but I do wonder at times if I shouldn't have collected all licensing material for the area (in case I spread out to neigbouring parishes at some future date). The Swan is one of the pubs that are within a couple of hundred yards of Newbury's boundaries which would be the first to be added to my area of interest if I ever expand it.
The only data I have on a Walter New is from 1908 - 1910, when he was landlord of the William IV, a beerhouse in Bartholomew St - which is still standing even though it was closed as a pub in 1910.
Let me know when you are coming to Newbury and perhaps we can meet up.
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I would say it is possible that we could have one and the same person with the Walter New as landlord of the William IV beerhouse.
Yes will certainly let you know when we're coming over to Newbury, looking at May at this stage, no firm bookings yet, it would be great to catch up.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Just following up on our previous communication, yes we will be in Newbury around week commencing 17th May. New family history, here we come !!
jan
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For janjim (PM me if you want to meet up in May) - two views of an incident in an ancestor's life. Quite amazing that two diarists' accounts of a very minor event in 1801 have survived.
From the diary of Samuel Purdue, parish clerk of Newbury.
1801 Sept 28. Mr Toomer junr, Mayor; Mr Toomer senr, Justice. The preliminaries of peace signed by Lord Hawsbury and Mr Otto, the French Commissioner. Mr Haskins, Mr Harris and Jas Purdue fined 5s each for drawing beer on the Sunday; refused paying the fine, Mr Lodge, the constable, seized on them; from Mr Haskins 2 bottle of wine, Mr Harris ditto, Jas Purdue a saw; sold in the Market-place by auction on the 20 Nov 1801, by Lodge, the constable, and Stillman; Mr Townsend paid the fine soon as bought, drank the wine in the Shambles, and sung ‘God save the King’, and drank several toasts; barrel of beer gave at night to ye people assembled, and a bonfire on the occasion; the Mayor lose at the time, some of his grindstones broke or carried away.
From the diary of Joseph Toomer, mayor of Newbury
1801 November 10th
Complaints having been made by the Constables that the Publicans in general persisted in serving on the Lord’s Day & that many of the Inhabitants of the Town made a constant practice of assembling at several of the Public Houses on the Lords Day Evening for purchasing of Liquor – and other purposes, notwithstanding the Notices given to the Inhabitants to refrain from exercising their Worldly Business on the Lords Day.
Mr John Haskins of the Kings Arms
Mr John Townsend of the Town Arms
Mr James Purdue of the 2 Brewers
& Mr Wm Harris of the White Hart
were sent for & on being questioned did each of them confess that on Sunday the first day of November Inst they did severally sell Liquor in their respective Houses to persons who could have procured Liquor elsewhere or have been otherwise provided – they were accordingly convicted by their own confession in the penalty of 5/- each.
November 13th
Issued a Warrant of Distress against the publicans convicted on the 1oth & sent a summons to J King for pay the fine for travelling in his Waggon on the Sth.
November 14th
John King paid the Fine of 20/-
J Townsend paid the Fine of 5/-
Constables served the Warrant of Distress on John Haskins, James Purdue & William Harris.
(in January 1802 Robert Purdue of the Rose & Crown was among five landlords fined 5/- for the same offence).
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Afternoon, newburychap.
Tacking on to an old thread, do those diaries have an online presence at all, would you know?
If not, would you happen to know whether they'd be likely to have any entries referring to Thomas King and/or family , mealman d1807, who I believe from the 1815 census might have been based at West Mills.
TIA
Steve
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Tacking on to an old thread, do those diaries have an online presence at all, would you know?
If not, would you happen to know whether they'd be likely to have any entries referring to Thomas King and/or family , mealman d1807, who I believe from the 1815 census might have been based at West Mills.
Nothing online as far as I know.
Extensive extracts from the Purdue diary were printed in the Newbury Weekly News in 1886 - which is what I have, not the complete diary. I makes for fascinating reading, but it is not a day to day account and includes lots about events distant from Newbury. There are occasional mentions of Newbury folk, but no Thomas King. It covers the period 1766-1803.
The Toomer Journal relates to events during his years as Mayor of Newbury (1791/2, 1801/2 and 1814/5) - lots of Newbury names mainly in lists (signatories of a petition, invitees to the Mayor's feast, publicans, charity school boys, almost random). There is a Thomas King - landlord of The Globe - and a John King, mealman but no Thomas King, mealman.
It's pure chance that they both mention the same event - Toomer sitting as magistrate on a case involving Purdue's brother in 1801.
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Thanks nc
Think John is one of the sons of Thomas. Charles inherited the meal sacks (whatever they are) but seems to have died youngish.
Now seriously off-topic, I saw a lantern slide of West Mills when I was at BRO on Friday. Looked to be behind/next to St Nicholas. Are there any remnants?
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Hi Newbury chap, well seems like years ago, we have been and gone to the Bacon Arms, and never met up with you, which was a shame.
Anyway getting back to Walter New of the Swan Inn, you mention William IV Beerhouse, wondering if you have more information on Walter, in these years gone by. There were several News running Pubs in Newbury, in the late 1800's and early 1900's, thought there could be more information available now on this Walter New.
Jan
I'm afraid I have tunnel vision when it comes to pubs - as the Swan is not in Newbury I have not collected any data unless the same newspaper item etc includes reference to a Newbury pub. Its a policy that has made the workload a bit more manageable but I do wonder at times if I shouldn't have collected all licensing material for the area (in case I spread out to neigbouring parishes at some future date). The Swan is one of the pubs that are within a couple of hundred yards of Newbury's boundaries which would be the first to be added to my area of interest if I ever expand it.
The only data I have on a Walter New is from 1908 - 1910, when he was landlord of the William IV, a beerhouse in Bartholomew St - which is still standing even though it was closed as a pub in 1910.
Let me know when you are coming to Newbury and perhaps we can meet up.
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Thanks nc
Think John is one of the sons of Thomas. Charles inherited the meal sacks (whatever they are) but seems to have died youngish.
John was mentioned as one of the men selected for the grand jury at the town quarter sessions on 9 Oct 1801.
Now seriously off-topic, I saw a lantern slide of West Mills when I was at BRO on Friday. Looked to be behind/next to St Nicholas. Are there any remnants?
West Mills (the street) is still there, someone from the 1820s would still recognise it though there have been major changes - notably the loss of both sets of mills. One of the cottages was recently dendro-dated to 1476.
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Anyway getting back to Walter New of the Swan Inn, you mention William IV Beerhouse, wondering if you have more information on Walter, in these years gone by. There were several News running Pubs in Newbury, in the late 1800's and early 1900's, thought there could be more information available now on this Walter New.
Sorry Jan, I haven't done much work on pubs for a few years - too busy on WW1 research into the 338 men and one woman on the Newbury war memorial.
Walter New was landlord of the William IV from 1907 to 1910. In 1910 the pub was referred to the county licensing authority by the Newbury magistrates. They felt it should be closed as 'redundant'. At the time Newbury had a pub for every 145 inhabitants (including children) - well above the national average of one for every 375 people. Closure would attract compensation payments for the owners and licensee. According to the report Walter New was already planning to leave and the owners (South Berks Brewery) had no objection to the closure - it seems that everyone was happy for it to go and so it went. I suspect it was really the brewery that was happy to see this pub go to placate the magistrates, one that they felt they could readily sacrifice. Odds are they offered Walter another, better pub to get him onside.
The William IV was one of those beer houses started up in the period when magistrates lost control over beer licences (1830-1869) and was tiny - one tap room 14ft 10in by 10 ft sales of 1.5 barrels of beer a week. There was another South Berks pub across the road - 13 yards and 2 feet away - the toilets were out at the back (go out of the front door and round the side to get to them). All in all it was always going to be in the brewery's mind as a sacrificial lamb in a era when magistrates were keen to reduce pub numbers.
If Walter moved on to the Swan it would have been a 'promotion' up the landlord career ladder.
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Thanks very much for the info and letting me take up your time, newburychap
I'll let you get back to the Memorial :)
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Hi Newbury chap,
I know it's a long time ago, you were working on the Beerhouses, wonder if you could put me in the right direction for list of Pubs etc.and Licensees. Finding more and more of our family connections (Brindley family now) involved in the Pub scene in Newbury.
Jan
Anyway getting back to Walter New of the Swan Inn, you mention William IV Beerhouse, wondering if you have more information on Walter, in these years gone by. There were several News running Pubs in Newbury, in the late 1800's and early 1900's, thought there could be more information available now on this Walter New.
Sorry Jan, I haven't done much work on pubs for a few years - too busy on WW1 research into the 338 men and one woman on the Newbury war memorial.
Walter New was landlord of the William IV from 1907 to 1910. In 1910 the pub was referred to the county licensing authority by the Newbury magistrates. They felt it should be closed as 'redundant'. At the time Newbury had a pub for every 145 inhabitants (including children) - well above the national average of one for every 375 people. Closure would attract compensation payments for the owners and licensee. According to the report Walter New was already planning to leave and the owners (South Berks Brewery) had no objection to the closure - it seems that everyone was happy for it to go and so it went. I suspect it was really the brewery that was happy to see this pub go to placate the magistrates, one that they felt they could readily sacrifice. Odds are they offered Walter another, better pub to get him onside.
The William IV was one of those beer houses started up in the period when magistrates lost control over beer licences (1830-1869) and was tiny - one tap room 14ft 10in by 10 ft sales of 1.5 barrels of beer a week. There was another South Berks pub across the road - 13 yards and 2 feet away - the toilets were out at the back (go out of the front door and round the side to get to them). All in all it was always going to be in the brewery's mind as a sacrificial lamb in a era when magistrates were keen to reduce pub numbers.
If Walter moved on to the Swan it would have been a 'promotion' up the landlord career ladder.
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Hi Newbury chap,
I know it's a long time ago, you were working on the Beerhouses, wonder if you could put me in the right direction for list of Pubs etc.and Licensees. Finding more and more of our family connections (Brindley family now) involved in the Pub scene in Newbury.
Jan
Hello Jan - The only online lists of pubs I can think of are in trade directories, several of which are available at Ancestry or on the Leicester University Historical Directories site - they cover the 1850s to 1930s pretty well and usually include licensee and pub names. However, beer houses do not get such good coverage, they usually omit the name of the beerhouse. Daniel Brindley is shown as the proprietor of a beer house in Hampton Road and as a beer retailer & fishmonger (I fear that I always think fish when the Brindley name crops up) in his two entries in the 1895 Kelly's Directory of Berkshire, which I cannot see online with a quick search - but I see you can download a pdf for £5.95. The address is a dead giveaway, he was landlord of the Red House, which is still in business.
There are other lists, mainly on paper, but the earliest one with names of pubs is from 1761 and was printed in Walter Money's 1887 History of Newbury. This is a superb book and can be found as a free digital download, however, Money did make a transcription error and omitted the Three Tuns from his list; the original is in the Berkshire Record Office. Coverage of the surviving licensing records starts in the 1970s.
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Hullo Phil, lovely to hear back from you. Will check that book out online, thanks for the heads up.
Just wish we had known more about the Brindley family before we went to Newbury back in 2010, maybe another trip coming up, just a maybe !! Would love to see the Red Beer House, have googled same anyway, looks a great place.
Jan