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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Dougalgeorge on Thursday 15 October 09 20:27 BST (UK)
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Hi.
I hope I have managed to get this on here and that it`s a reasonable size !!
Any suggestions?
Regards
Tracey
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Hi Tracey
Narcotic Poisoning...
sarah :)
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Oh dear !!!
What kinds of things are classed as narcotics?
Thanks for the help.
Regards
Tracey
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Hm, that's an odd one...it is tiny but it seems to read "Norestic Bissning" which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!
Any possibility of a bigger image?
Prue
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Hi,
I'm also going with Narcotic Poisoning
Jen :)
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Have to say, me too .. I thought it said Narcotic Poisoning before I read the other replies.
Pels.
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Sorry - the red message didn't come up and I didn't see all the replies you'd had suggesting Narcotic Poisoning, which, of course (now it's been suggested) I can clearly see!!
It could have been opium, heroin, cocaine...depends on how precise the term "narcotic" was at the time of this person's death. Many people had such things in their home medicine cabinets in earlier times.
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Hopefully a bit bigger
Tracey
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Hi All
Prue's answer covers narcotics ;D......
was it accidental or intentional by self or others? ?
Sarah :)
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The amount of narcotic use in one part of England - the fens - was beyond belief -
http://www.drugtext.org/library/books/opiumpeople/opiuminthefens.html
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Is there any mention on the certificate of an Inquest or a Post Mortem?
If so, there may be a passage in the local newspaper, or the details of the inquest may be held at the local records office.
Darin.
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He was a farmer in Scotland !!
Thanks for all your help.
Kindest regards
Tracey
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Narcotic Misusing altough it should be called Narcotic Misuse
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I go for narcotic misusing, definitely not poisoning, though that may have been the result. As a Fenman by upbringing I shall now read Geoff's posting to see how many people that I knew in Boston fit the description!
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I'm sure the term "Misuse of Drugs" is a modern one. Remember that for much of the 19th century the use of narcotics was quite legal so, in my opinion, "Poisoning" is more likely.
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Quite terrifying, I just wonder whether the scottish farmer was a native of the area, or if he had migrated from the fens or had workers who had migrated. Since both sides of my family lived in the opium area I would imagine that they would certainly know of its use, perhaps even used it on their children when teathing, what was that mixture used on teething infants as late as 1950? Authority, and right wing (modified from wind, but maybe I was right first time!!)politicians would have us believe that drug addiction is a modern addiction, they should read this, then read Sherlock Holmes, then keep their lips buttoned, or perhaps stick stick to their white powders!Thanks Geoff.
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Authority, and right wind politicians would have us believe that drug addiction is a modern addiction, they should read this, then read Sherlock Holmes, then keep their lips buttoned, or perhaps stick stick to their white powders!
Tut Tut !!
Sorry - the red message didn't come up and I didn't see all the replies you'd had suggesting Narcotic Poisoning, which, of course (now it's been suggested) I can clearly see!!
It clearly says Narcotic Poisoning, as Prue has quite rightly agreed. :)
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I would say definitely Narcotic Poisoning.
Regards Amber39
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:) Hi everyone and thank you all,
I`ve had another look at the original and on a bigger copy, I think it says poisoning (well, it`s easy now that some of you told me what it said ;))
There must have been a post mortem as on his death entry there was no cause mentioned, but in the margin it said "see Reg of corrected entry" and the cause of death was given on there. He died on March 20th, and the corrected entry was dated the 28th.
Surely this would have been reported in the local paper? Does anyone know which paper that would be at that time? Or have any idea where else I would look for more info?
A black sheep at last !!
Thanks again for all your help.
Kindest regards
Tracey
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Surely this would have been reported in the local paper? Does anyone know which paper that would be at that time?
I think you have only told us he was a Scottish farmer. No date, no place, no name. ???
It would be presumptuous of us to think he was a William MILNE of Aberdeenshire, wouldn't it? ;)
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:) Geoff... all I can say is whoops !!
Your wild guess was correct !! His name was William Milne. He was born on 15th May 1845. Married Isabella Stott on 31st May 1872 at Fetteresso, Kincardine, and died on 20th March 1896 at Windford, Cookney. (He was a widower, Isabella had already died)
Kindest regards
Tracey
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I'm a bit late on the scene but I would go with Narcotic Poisoning as well.
perhaps even used it on their children when teathing, what was that mixture used on teething infants as late as 1950?
Was it Gripe Water? I think it used to contain a bit of morphine.
I believe that opiates were also used to treat fatal diseases like tuberculosis. Also products containing opiates were given to children in 19thC Lancashire by childminders to 'soothe' them into inactivity whilst their mother's worked in the mills. They went by names like 'mother's mercy' and 'Godfrey's Cordial' and the use of them sometimes resulted in the death of the child.
Maggie
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Hardly a blacksheep if this was the social norm at the time. Somehow it doesn't look like poisoning to me.Is there any chance of getting a copy certificate from the local registrar's office, they are hand written copies of the original entry, so there is no loss due to the reprographic processes.
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Hi. Thanks for the replies
Maybe I should get in touch with SP and ask them for a better image?
If not, then which RO do I contact, and can I do it online?
Kindest regards
Tracey
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I can only speak directly for English certificates which record the Registry Office where the event was registered. I believe Scottish certificates have similar content, but if I am wrong no doubt someone will correct me.
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Somehow it doesn't look like poisoning to me.
(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2778/clipboard01wm.jpg)
I wonder if this might help in the meantime Tracey, apart from removing the background noise and increasing the black in the neutral shade, I haven't tampered with your original image.
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I am certain it is poisoning as cause of death, specially with the enhanced image from Pels.
For extra confirmation, you can contact SP on this link www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/contactus/form.aspx?issue=24 and explain what section you are having a problem making out. They will send you an enhanced image via email. They are very good on these types of enquiries (normal turnaround 24-48hrs). In most cases, the enhanced images from SP can make problem areas very clear.
Monica :)
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Hi :)
Pels image has made it even clearer to me that it is narcotic poisoning, although I had no doubt before.
Asked my OH for his opinion, he hadn't a clue what it was from and he too said narcotic poisoning.
Evie
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I thought 'narcotic poisoning' as soon as I saw it.
Joy
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Hi :)
Late on this but I've seen a lot of Scottish death certs! I am amazed that the discussion is still going on. I would say that it is Narcotic Poisoning
What does the RCE* say, Tracey?
Gadget
* for those not familiar with Scottish death certs. The RCE (Register of Corrected Entries) report on deaths investigated by the Procurator Fiscal (equiv to English Post Mortems)
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Couldn't wait.
The RCE is very clearly Narcotic Poisoning.
Gadget
Added - the death cert had cause blank. It was the RCE that showed the cause and Tracey hadn't enlarged it enough. It's pretty clear really.
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Would you like me to smarten it up a bit ?? :-\
:-X ;D
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A few layers would help - maybe add a levels adjustment layer and clean up the edges :-X :-X :-X
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi, :)
Thanks for doing that for me Gadget.
I have contacted SP to let them know that there was a problem with the image of the RCE. Hopefully if they send me another image, we will know for definite what it says. ;D
For some strange reason, I haven`t been getting notification of further replies to this topic, so forgive me if I seem to be ignoring your answers.
Thank you again for all your help.
Kindest regards
Tracey
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Hello again
Within 10 mins of contacting SP they have sent me an `enlargeable copy`of the RCE.... which makes no difference whatsoever since I can enlarge the one I have on Irfanview. The image is no more readable than the last one was :(
Tracey
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Pels or Gadget,
Feel free to meddle with the image :) :) :)
Kindest regards
Tracey
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Hi Tracey
Send my your e-mail via PM because the image that I looked at was fairly clear and if it's not, I'll see if either one of us can enhance it and I can send it to you :)
Gadget
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Laudanum was made up of opium and morphine, it was widely used for just about everything from teething to "the vapours". It was still available in Australia as late as the 1940's and was a must in every well stocked medicine chest, along with the smelling salts and iodine.
Just my little bit of daily trivia.
Leonie.
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To add to the trivia ...........
I have a couple of old pharmacy recipe books that probably date from the late 19th early 20th C and many of the medicines recipes within contain morphine and opium. 'Mist kaolin et morph' was a stomach mixture, also there was a yummy cough medicine containing morphine and both were available throughout the 1950s and freely given to me as a child ::)
......... end of trivia ;D ;D
Maggie (daughter of a dispensing chemist)
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Gadget,
Thank you so much, that is fabulous, and I can read every word.
Narcotic poisoning it is !!
Thank you again
Tracey
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No doubt now in my mind, narcotic poisoning, but the enlargement sent you from SP suggests that they don't really understand what people are looking for.No need for the original now though.
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:)
Who needs SP to send me a better image, when we have the marvel that is Gadget ! ;D
Regards
Tracey
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That is true; but the stuff about opiate use in the fens reminds me of a guy I worked with in the 1950s, a native of Boston b 1920 approx, nickname laudanum. I wonder!
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Are we really sure it isn't Narcotic Misusing ?? :-\
I could be wrong, but the majority of people on this thread can't be right all the time !! :-X ;D
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Pels, Like you I thought the certificatge said misusing, the recent work by Gadget, in the absence of a Registry Office hand written copy of the original has convinced me it is poisoning.
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For what it's worth, I don't think that the concept of narcotic misuse would have occurred to anyone at the time - certainly not as a cause of death. Laudanum was the miracle cure-all and opium smoking was , if not de rigeur, certainly an accepted occurrence. Narcotic poisoning, on the other hand, would have been regarded as a fact of life - somewhat akin to lead poisoning being par for the course for certain miners.
Mike
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Just been looking at William`s Inventory. (No will)
He left £387 4s. Which includes £100 insurance money.
I read the article on the Fens (on growing opium). They were also trying to grow poppies in Scotland but it wasn`t as successful. Wonder why ;) ;) ;)
Tracey