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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: Shellspacebabe on Saturday 17 October 09 11:21 BST (UK)
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I was very excited to open up this morning my great, great grandmother (Annie Moore) and g,g, grandfather's (Alexander Barron) marriage certificate (married in Dublin) and to discover her father was a clergyman whose name is Collins-Moore I cannot read his first name its almost impossible to decipher. Oddly though they are married in a registry office? (1874) now I find that odd that her father is a clergyman and she is marrying in a registry office. My g,g,grandfather was a bagpiper in the Scots Guards and is stationed in Dublin at the time of their meeting so maybe that is the reason? does anyone have any ideas or suggestions as to how common or why they may have married in a registry office? or know anything about Irish clergy in this part of Ireland. I am hoping at some stage to visit Wicklow but will need a bit more information before I do. Any help most gratefully received!
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Some ministers/churches at that time were not authorised to perform marriages under civil regulations so a civil marriage (registry office) had to take place and very often a separate ceremony would have been performed in the church. If you do find a newspaper announcement of the wedding it will most likely give church (rather than registry office) as place of marrage.
What's the bride's residence given on the marriage certificate?- this may help find her father.
Other thing to check is what Annie listed as her birthplace in any available census records.
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Do you know why some Ministers or Churches were not allowed to perform marriages? It seems strange I am probably showing my ignorance but I always believed there was only one religion in Southern Ireland being Roman Catholicism? I will have a good look at the marriage certificate the place of residence is hard to read its County Dublin, "something" House (will have a good look when I go home) The Census records I have checked to date are all in England and the place of birth for Annie is always Wicklow, Ireland
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Probably 3 'main' religions here in Ireland are Church of Ireland (also known as Established Church which is similar to Church of England/Episcopal), Roman Catholic and Presbyterian (which is again broken down into various ones such as Reformed Presbyterians, Succeders, etc.). There are also Methodists, Congregationalists, Baptists, Quakers, Brethern...
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oooops I had better read up on my Irish History :) well I will keep digging for now thank you for all your help
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Not allowed to post full certificates here but bits can be posted for deciphering.
If you can scan it, then paste the bits with bride's residence and father's name we might be able to get something useful from it.
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thank you, I will do that tomorrow at work it would be a great help I have had another look and I really cant make it out at all
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Hello
Here is the document I have tried to cut and paste but I need more advanced software apparently!
can you please read it and let me know if you can make this out
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Father of bride - Wm Collins? Moore clergyman
Residence of bride - 2 Eglinton Terrace R/B?__ghah? Co.Dublin
Line reads - 28 March 1881 on? license [not house]
Perhaps someone else will be able to figure out exact address on certificate.
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the word in the Brides's address look like Ranelagh to me...
there are three Eglinton Terrace listings in Thoms 1877
Clanbrassil Street Upper
Wellington Road
Royal Canal
Wellington Road is near Leeson Street and not far from Ranelagh.
Shane
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2 Eglinton Terrace, Donneybrook Rd. (west of Herbert Park) is now a hostel or bed/breakfast- would this be the right area for Ranelagh, Shane?
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Thank you very much I am guessing WM is for William
"on license" ? does anyone know what that might mean
also there is a small 2. before the brides residence and below the photocopy i have of the certificate is a note which frustratingly wasnt copied properly by the gro in Ireland so I cant read it at all
Eglinton Terrace, Ranelagh do you know if it still stands? are the other roads etc you mentioned now in its place?
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2 Eglinton Terrace, Donnybrook Rd. (west of Herbert Park) is now a hostel or bed/breakfast- would this be the right area for Ranelagh, Shane?
sounds about right - Donnybrook & Ranelagh are adjacent - I know the area, but this road doesn't ring a bell..
I've found a possible listing in the Ranelagh section of Thom's 1877
# 2 W.N.C. Moore. esq Eglinton Tce (Ranelagh Road)
next door at #1 is a Rev. Morgan W. Jellet M.A. L.L.D. curate of St. Peters
Shane
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esquire? does that mean anything for that time? this is getting very exciting I will look up the area on a map
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Eglinton Terrace is likely the name of a group of houses, not a street, going by this-
I've found a possible listing in the Ranelagh section of Thom's 1877
# 2 W.N.C. Moore. esq Eglinton Tce (Ranelagh Road)
next door at #1 is a Rev. Morgan W. Jellet M.A. L.L.D. curate of St. Peters
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generally esq. means you were a gentleman of independent means, so you didn't have a trade as such..
I am not convinced yet that the current Eglinton Terrace is the same one as referred to on the marriage cert, as it is off Donnybrook village, whereas the Thom's listing definitely states that it is off Ranelagh road.
Shane
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yes that makes sense thank you so much for all your help much appreciated
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Yes, Shane, I think the one you've found is much more likely to be the one on the marriage certificate.
Shellspacebabe- could you give us exact date of marriage, please?
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Eglinton Terrace is likely the name of a group of houses, not a street, going by this-
I've found a possible listing in the Ranelagh section of Thom's 1877
# 2 W.N.C. Moore. esq Eglinton Tce (Ranelagh Road)
next door at #1 is a Rev. Morgan W. Jellet M.A. L.L.D. curate of St. Peters
I think you're right with this.. my Grandfather had his Chemist shop on Ranelagh Road, but the actual address was Macgowan Terrace, and it has the same type of listing with Ranelagh Rd in brackets.
Shane
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would my great,gt,gt Grandfather (collins-moore) who is a clergyman be connected with St Pauls then going by the fact that at no.1. lived the Curator?
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I listed the clergyman at #1 in case there was a connection, but there no indication in the listing that W.N.C is a clergyman. Usually there's is a prefix included (like Rev.) or initials etc after a name, plus he does not seem to be listed in the ecclesiastical section of the directory that I can find.
I think his surname is just Moore, rather than Collins-Moore
Shane
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Oh i see on the marriage certificate his profession is down as clergyman? that is why I wondered
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I'm not sure about the occupation question - could the address relate to another family member rather than her father. He could live somewhere else (or be deceased).
found a more details listing for the address in the 1894 editon :
2 W.N.C. Moore esq , B.A. (T.C.D.)
Shane
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yes that makes sense as he is not a witness at the marriage so perhaps he is deceased and the W.N.C. Moore is a relative as he is down as William Collins-Moore no mention of initial N
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Irish marriage certificates list name and occupation of father but don't always say if father is deceased. Wonder if WCN Moore could be a brother?
Found William Colles Moore living in Herbert Road, Dublin!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Pembroke_East/Herbert_Road/50162/
He's age 62, Church of Ireland, retired civil servant, born Co. Wexford
wife Mary Marcella Moore and 2 servants in household.
Very nice signature COLLES not Collins- from marriage certificate I couldn't be sure of father's middle name but Colles is now more likely
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I would guess that the Mr. Moore listed is possibly a younger man, seeing as it seems that between 1877 and 1894 he went to Trinity Collage and studied for a B.A.
I'll look in a few more of the directories this evening and see if I can find out any more. I'm sure I've seen or heard of Eglington terrace in Ranelagh - but cant remember where at the moment... that will bug me!
Shane
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William Colles Moore (age 58) death 1866 Dublin South registration district volume 12 page 537
Also a marriage William Colles Moore 1876 Wexford reg. dist.
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails;t=searchable;c=1408347
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The Established church ecclesiastical section of Thom's 1852 lists a W.C. Moore as being posted in Carnew, diocese of Ferns.
Shane
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Found this marriage which gives us location of Rev. Moore in 1859-
On Wednesday, 10th inst., in Lurgan Church, by the Rev. William Colles Moore, Rector of Carnew, Co. Wicklow, Wm. Liddell, Esq., Lurgan, to Georgiana, fourth daughter of Robert Morris, Esq., Lurgan.
www.irelandoldnews.com/Armagh/1859/18590813.html
Griffith's Valuation lists Rev. Wm C. Moore in Carnew.
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I'll have a look in Thom's 1863 and see if Wm snr had moved to Dublin at that stage.
this is looking very good - all the little clues are building up..
Shane
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Just watch out here- I've now come across a Rev. Henry Moore in Carnew (no relation to Wm. Colles Moore that I can find).
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Thank you this is amazing. I know Annie was born in Wicklow so they may have all moved to Dublin as a family
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The William Colles Moore is listed on the census entry mentioned earlier as being born in Co. Wexford - but this could still fit as Carnew is in the south of Co. Wicklow and only a km or two from the Wexford boarder.
Shane
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Here's link to present church/rector-
www.ireland.anglican.org/index.php?do=information.dioceses&page=showparish&id=15650
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It does seem to be coming together will your expert help. I know my G,G,Grandmother Annie Moore was born in Wicklow in 1852 so the William Colles Moore marriage in 1876 would be too late, so I think the William Colles Moore who died in 1866 may be the man. So that may mean that the William Colles Moore of Herbert Road, Dublin who is aged 62 a retired civil servant may be a different person and not my g,g,g,grandfather. So far I think we have a possible three William Colles Moore's the one who died age 58, the one living in Herbert Road and the one who is the rector of Carnew?
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my guess is the William Colles Moore marriage and listing in Ranelagh in 1877 is Annie's brother, and he moved to Herbert Road sometime after 1894, and that Rev. W.C. Moore is their father and he moved to Ranelagh, which is in south Dublin district, sometime before his death in 1866.
just speculation at the moment - but seems to fit the facts so far.
Shane
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Thom's of 1863 lists Rev. Moore as :
W.C. Moore, Rural Dean, Rector of Carnew (Ferns)
There's no listing for Eglinton Tce - I dont believe it was built until after this. As far as I can tell this was towards the Canal end of Ranelagh Rd - nearly opposite Mount Pleasant Square.
Not sure how this fits.. but I found Eglinton Terrace, Ranelagh on the 1911 census and there's another William Moore at no. 2 (also born Co. Wexford) :
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Eglinton_Terrace/
Shane
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That latest William Moore is actually William N. C. More on the form (mis-transcribed as William R.C. Moore) so he might be the one connected to the address on marriage certificate.
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William N.C. Moore is listed at the same Ranelagh address in Thom's of 1914 and 1938 but is not listed on the Dublin City Electoral register of 1939 (http://www.dublinheritage.ie). An Anna Lucia Moore is listed at the address on the register - which would match with his wife listed as A.L. on the 1911 census.
No. 2 Eglinton Terrace was renumbered at some stage between 1914 and 1938 as many parts of Ranelagh were and became no 49 Ranelagh Rd.
Shane
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This has given me much food for thought and will certainly aid my visit to Ireland. Annie Moore married in 1874, I believe she was living with her brother (W.N.C.Moore) in Eglinton Terrace, by then Annie's father the Reverend William Colles Moore is deceased (died 1866 age 58 - volume 12 page 537). Later W.N.C.Moore moves to Herbert Road, Dublin he is married to Anna Lucia Moore, he has a degree, a B.A. from Trinity College in Dublin. Annie has moved to England with Alexander Barron a musician in the Scots Guards, my great grandfather Donald Ernest Barron is born in Chelsea Barracks and then he later produces my grandmother Annie Evelyn Mary Barron (my Father's mother). I will now look at the Carnew area. Sadly my father never saw his mother after the age of 5 due to a family split, my grandmother died in Enfield, London in 1988 I never met her, so to find out about her and her family has been very important to me, thank you both for all your help
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Actually I may have the Herbert Road move wrong? perhaps W.N.C.Moore stays at Eglinton Terrace up until 1838, if thats the case I am not sure who is living in Herbert Road?
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I mean 1938!
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I've a suspicion, with no real basis, that the two Williams are related. It looks like the William Moore and his wife Anna Lucia in Eglinton Terrace stayed there until 1938. I'd love to find something that showed what this William's middle names are - if the C in his name is Colles, as the William in Herbert Road, then maybe they are cousins.
One more detail on Rev. W.C. Moore - he is listed in Thom's of 1848 as the incumbant in Carnew, diocese of Ferns.
Shane
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Hello Shane
Yes I think they may be as you say cousins, i certainly have a lot more to go on now
I will next take a look and see if I can get my Great, great Grandmother (Annie Moore) birth certificate