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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: lustremounter on Monday 19 October 09 19:06 BST (UK)
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Can somebody identify this 0.95 inch diameter brass button?
The reverse has GREEN & Co. SAVILLE ROW.
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The coronet is like that of an English baron, and the figure could be his crest, so might it possibly be a livery button worn by servants of a baronial family?
Roger
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The whip and the figure makes me believe the person wearing this had something to do with the slave-trade. Maybe a slave master
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Not sure if it's any help, but the figure appears to be wearing armour and holding a small cross in his left hand, suggesting a mediaeval knight, perhaps a crusader, which might support the baronial crest theory.
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The baron's coronet is a good idea Roger. But the 4 visible balls are actually small ones interspersed between something higher up which may be fleurs de lys, definitely not strawberry leaves, so does not agree with English peerage coronets.
The more I look at it the more there is to see and I had not realised how many clues there are.
Could that be a cat-of nine-tails in the right hand and a cross or dagger in the left hand.
Could the bar at the bottom be a ship's bulwark or an altar rail?
Bob.
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Bob,
I think a cat-of-nine-tails had literally nine strands to it, but not sure about that. Certainly looks like an instrument for flogging though , with knots in the strands.
It doesn't seem to me to be a good way of holding a dagger, surely it would cut one's hands? Could it be a pair of scissors, or is that just a trick of the light on your image?
Re the bar at the bottom, it is quite usual to have a wreath at the bottom of a crest, usually in the same colours as the shield. That was one thing that made me think it might be a crest.
It's a fascinating item, I hope you discover what it symbolises.
Cheers
Roger
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I still think it is a cross in his left hand. I wonder if the whip has some religious significance?
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I tried to clean it up a little bit in photoshop, but it's a very small image so not sure if it's helped at all. For what it's worth, I think the right hand is holding some kind of whip similar to a cat o' nine tails, and the left hand is holding the hilt of a short sword, which goes through a belt and sticks out below. The person appears to be wearing an armour or mail skirt.
Prue
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Hi Folks,
That is an interesting button, have you considered sending a copy of the picture to the British Museum?
Rabbit B :)
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Also, it might be worth looking through trade directories to see if you can find "Green & Co" on Savile Row (assuming this is the Savile Row in London that we're talking about).
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Hi Prue,
I will have a hunt tomorrow, I love old buttons
Rabbit B ;D
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I'm taking a guess. This is a man holding the cross in his left hand and a scourge in his right. We have, I think, someone who was prepared (or, at least, declared to the world that he was prepared) to take on all the forces of evil so long as he was girded by his faith. It purports to be the symbol of an old family - and that may well be the case. On the other hand, it could well be a button of someone who wished to give the impression that the family was, of old, a defender of the faith.
I look forward to a good identification.
Mike
EDIT: Would you believe it? I was staring at the figure so hard, I completely missed what was above his head. Add King to the above guess.
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Maybe a bit more information about the context would throw more light: eg. was it found among someone's possessions? if so, where did they and their ancestors live?
Of course there is always the possibility that someone dug it up in the garden and thought it interesting enough to keep, as I have done from time to time ::)
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I don't know if this is a clue or a red herring, but the Business Directory of London 1884 on Historical Directories has:
Green, Edward & Son, tailor, 35 Savile Row
If this is associated with the button, and later became a company, it might help to date it. I am assuming they would get such items for their customers from a specialist maker, not manufacture them themselves??
Roger
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About 20 years ago a work colleague found the button in a garden in Seaton Ross, East Yorkshire, and asked if I could find out what it was. It recently surfaced at the back of a drawer, so I am giving it another go.
The Manor of Seaton Ross was at one time held by the catholic Constable family of Everingham. Is that a scourge in the button?
Bob.
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Thanks for the Edward Green & Son.
There is now a Edward Green & Co Ltd in Burlington Arcade. No e-mail address, so I will try them by snail mail.
Bob.
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Bingo!
Yes, Bob, it is a scourge.
STOURTON, Baron, (Stourton ;) a demigray-friar, ppr., habited in russet, girt or, in his dexter hand a scourge of three lashes, with knots, in his sinister a cross, both of the last. p1.47, n. 18. Loyal je serai durant ma vie.
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:wM7GT1LPJ24J:www.family-crests.info/pages4410.php+crest+scourge&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
Don't ask me why a demigray friar should be habited in russet
Roger
Just looked at the preview, they even provided a smiley!
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Hi Roger,
Could habited in Russet be the monks that wear that colour, I cannot think of the name at the moment but they are the male version of poor Clares I think!
Well done by the way, I haven't had a minute to spare today. Sorry folks, I hate letting people down.
Rabbit B ;D
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Bingo!
Yes, Bob, it is a scourge.
STOURTON, Baron, (Stourton ;) a demigray-friar, ppr., habited in russet, girt or, in his dexter hand a scourge of three lashes, with knots, in his sinister a cross, both of the last. p1.47, n. 18. Loyal je serai durant ma vie.
Well done Roger!
I found this image of a coat of arms in an old Debrett's Peerage (1838) available on Google Books. The crest (I think that's what it's called) is our friar, looks a little bit different but I'm no heraldry expert:
(http://books.google.com/books?id=Ru4UAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA241&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U1zqf1GsPCzPXg3UtFR-tgT9yuoYg&ci=256%2C81%2C449%2C293&edge=0")
Is the button therefore from a livery uniform relating to the Barons Stourton?
Prue
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Thanks Prue and Rabbit, but it was really a team effort, I was just lucky to score the goal from Bob's pass.
Well done you too, Prue, I hadn't found an image to check, so that's goal two to you!.
As I understand it, the Grey Friars (Franciscans) were so called because they wore grey habits. That is why I don't understand why one would be depicted in a russet habit. Probably someone on here will know.
Roger :)
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I think "demi gray" is probably some heraldic term meaning he's cut off at the hips or something ;) rather than referring to whatever colour he's wearing.
Added: it seems that "demi" is the term referring to it being half a man ;)
http://flagspot.net/flags/vxt-dv-d.html#demi
...so perhaps it is suppose to be "demi grey-friar" rather than "demi-grey friar". Still doesn't explain why the grey friar is dressed in red though!
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Hi Folks,
I have been searching the net I have found a site
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07bz/ and I then remembered that Cadfael who is a medieval monk in a brown robe was a Benedictine. But the Clunic Monks in the site I found have Russett robes.
Now bearing in mind that Thomas a Beckett was murdered in Canterbury cathedral, and the King Henry, who made the remark that caused the murder had himself scourged as a penance. I cannot find the picture at the moment but I have an engraving in an old History book.
I wondered if this button and the associated coat of arms could have stemmed from that era??? ie come down through the generations in the coat of arms from the knights involved!
Rabbit B ;D
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Here's another version of the little friar on top of the coat of arms:
(http://books.google.com.au/books?id=7jAUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA390-IA1&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2Uwc9I7mTX3Vpp3-ojS5uFSyy1rA&ci=312%2C433%2C212%2C337&edge=0)
He looks more like 'our' fellow.
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Hi all,
Prue, I'm sure you're right about half a friar - it would be clearer if they had put demi-greyfriar (shades of Billy Bunter ;D ) Demi-lions, for example, are commonplace in heraldry. You're latest picture looks more like ¾ of a friar though :)
Rabbit, even back in the nineteenth century, the Baron Stourtons were the oldest family of barons, according to something I saw in google books, (but I've lost track of the reference :( ), so you're probably right too.
I reckon the actual button might be about 1900 though, as it says "& Co" on the back.
Roger
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About 20 years ago a work colleague found the button in a garden in Seaton Ross, East Yorkshire, and asked if I could find out what it was. ...
I found Alfred Stourton in the 1861 census b.1829 Holme, Yorkshire . . . and other references to the Stourtons at Holme Hall, Holme on Spalding Moor and Seaton Ross! . . .
Mike.
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Hi Folks,,
I found in my searches last night that Stourton is a very old family that does go back to medieval England, although of course the button is a 'modern one'.
I think that Prue has the right one. Please Prue may we have a link!
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi Folks,,
I found in my searches last night that Stourton is a very old family that does go back to medieval England, although of course the button is a 'modern one'.
I think that Prue has the right one. Please Prue may we have a link!
Rabbit B ;D
Do you think I can find the link now?! Grrr!
I'm pretty sure I just searched for Stourton in Google Books.
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Hi Prue,
So very kind of you to try but I have been there and done that and found nothing!
Must go out now! I will have another look later! Thanks for trying though
Rabbit B ;D
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I have had a look on A2A and the Stourton family of Holme on Spalding Moor owned and sold properties in Seaton Ross.
Coincidentally, I used to work at the B Ae airfield at H.O.S.M.
Thanks to all you wonderful people for taking an interest and finding the history associated with a simple button.
Bob.
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What an interesting thread.
Wonder why the friar has a scourge....the cross is understandable, but why the scourge.......