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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: Myfanwy 65 on Thursday 22 October 09 22:56 BST (UK)
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I have received a marriage cert for my gt gt grand parents and cannot work out where the Church is therefore their place of marriage. It says " The parish church in the Parish of St Michael Cwm...... ( cannot read ) in the county of Brecon.
She was listed as living in Gilfach Crickhowell and again cannot read grooms residence
starts with Penwarglo...
I have tried searching old Breconshire parishes and cannot find anything similar.
Has anyone any ideas please ? Any help would be much appreciated.
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From the Breconshire details in Parish Registers of Wales (Nat Lib of Wales) it looks like St Michael Cwmdu; can't help with the residence.
Pinot :)
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Many thanks for your reply Do you know whereabouts Cwmdu is ?
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Hi
Think the parish your looking for is St. Michael Cwmdu (see Llanfihangel Cwm Du.)
Chris
Here it is
http://www.cpat.demon.co.uk/projects/longer/churches/brecon/16757.htm
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Thank you both for your help. Have just googled Cwmdu and found it's not far from Talgarth and she was born there, so it fits.
Thanks again for your help.
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http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/LlanfihangelCwmDu/index.html
See that Chris beat me to it; Google is always my first stop.
Pinot
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Thanks Pinot that is always my first port of call . Where did we find this info before. ;D ;D
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The Gilfach, Crickhowell is still there & if you scan the name of the groom's home I can possibly identify it for you if it stills stands.
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Hi Kayzee, Is the Gifach a house ? I thought maybe it was the area. I will send you the copy of the cert to see if you can make it out. Many thanks for your interest.
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It's a farm just outside of town. It's just off the A40 on the Brecon side of Crickhowell . Still in good condition & lived in.
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Thanks for that , will look for it when I can next get to the area. Did you get my e-mail ??
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Hi Val,
I'm getting your messages, but am unable to send due to an error at my end. You should be able to attach by clicking on the sentence below the message box on a reply box. Failing that, I'll get through to you when I get this problem fixed.
Kay
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Right will try to attach image.
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Don't worry Val, I'll not forget as soon as my connection is sorted I'll e-mail you straight away. Keep your fingers crossed for dry weather tomorrow & hopefully my son will get on the roof to check my satellite connection. I'm giving up for tonight tho'
Kay
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I've got it -well done you. I know the area quite well, but the only similar farm at present is Penyrwyrlod, I suppose it could be that if the clerk was English & didn't get the spelling right, but it would best to check for the couple in a census. Have you tried that? Do you have access to the census? I don't have access myself, but I might be able to help you.
Kay
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The nearest census is 1851 and John was a servant at Court Tridowen Llanfillo brecon Cannot find my copy of Jane's whereabouts in 1851 at moment but we know where she was when she married. so it's not that I am looking for . It is where John's residence was. What do you make it out as ?
Many many thanks for your help it is much appreciated.
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It reads as you have it, so either it's a place that no longer exists or the clerk didn't understand the name & spelt it wrong. The only two places that seem likely are Penyrwrlod or Pengarlodau. I suppose Pengarlodau is the most likely. If you have access to the 1851 or 61 census, what about scrolling through the Cwmdu area & checking what placenames are around? I can certainly give you directions to either place once we clear up which it is.
Court Tridowen must be Tredomen Court, that's still standing also.
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Thanks Kay for your interest. I have just come online to read e-mails so will have a look at the census later on see if I can find Pengarlodau. It certainly looks a possibility as there are more letters that cannot be read. Big smudge over them.
If I can be of any help to you please ask, I am very grateful for all the help I receive .
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Pen(y)werglodd would be an acceptable Welsh name; the WAR might be explained by mis-hearing, mispronununciation etc. I think something like this is what to look out for if census-browsing.
Pinot :)
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Thanks Pinot, I have now looked through the 1851 census for Cwmdu and cannot find anything like it, so although Jane was resident there he must have been in another place. I will have to resign myself to not knowing. :( :'(
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No need to resign so quickly; 5 minutes search for Jane Watkins turned up a Jane born at Talgarth, married to John W. born Builth, both resident at Bedwellty, Mon, in 1861, children Mary Ann, Thomas, Daniel. Can you work backwards from what you have via census?
Pinot
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Give up what's that?! Where did you get the marriage certificate from? Did you know that there are 3 copies? They will not all have that smudge. It's a little known fact that the copy in the register office is different to the copy on the microfilm. I once had a marriage certificate copy from the local registrar with the groom's father's box blank. I rang to query the blank space & was assured there was no name recorded. 2 frustrating years later I was scrolling through the parish register at Llandrindod Wells & there he was as bold as brass. Apparently the 3 copies were written out, so human error plays a part.
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Hi Pinot,
Sorry I couldn't have made myself clear, I have them on the 1861 census after their marriage it's trying to find where John was living prior to his marriage. I think Ihave him on the 1851 census at Court Tridowen or as Kayzee said probably Tredomen Llanfillo Brecon but was interested to see where he was at his marriage.
I now have to tie down his birth date to find him for sure on 1841 as on the 1851 he is 19y old and the 1861 27 y old which puts his birth date to1834. By 1871 he is gone and Daniel ( my Gt granfather)and Mary ann are on their own as servants at The Heathcock inn Tredegar. I can follow them forward but not back !
I think I have John's family on the 1841 Builth census and going by the names they are all family names but how do I prove which one is his family as the Igi lists two possible both with father Thomas and mother Mary. !!To make matters worse they seem to name their children the same as well !!
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No need for apologies - me being obtuse!
Started on the 1861 census for Cwmdu, but there's only one page, as far as I can see! Went on to 1871 and lo and behold, the 5th dwelling on page 1 of District 1 for Cwmdu is Pengwrlode, clear as day.
Hope this is the sort of result you were looking for? (Incidentally Pengwrlode gives no Google hits but this thread)
Pinot :)
Pengwrlode is still there in 1891, but District 4, Blaenau.
Modified for spelling!
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You are a star Pinot. I went backwards not forward on the census. Thank you for that :-* Now I need Kayzee to tell me that the place is still there :)
Thanks to you both ;D
Val
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that the place is still there :)
See my addendum above
Pinot :(
Still, there's always the 1911 . . .
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I would have to talk to Santa to access that !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Santa says Pengwrlode farm is still there in 1911. A 63-year-old Thomas Watkins is a boarder there.
I took the 6 month sub with 20% off.
Pinot :)
Over to Kayzee!
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Now you've got me really curious ! John had a son Thomas, and can find no trace of him after the 1861 census, so I assumed ( wrongly maybe,but found a death that fitted ) that he had died as John's other children went to Tredegar, one of whom was my gt grandfather Daniel.
Did you make a note of the head of the households name ? I wonder if there is a family connection to Pengwrlode ? Maybe barking up the wrong tree as there are a lot of Watkins families around ;D
Thank you Santa :-*
Val
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Head is Alfred G L P Morris, b 1879 Gilwern, Breconshire, wife Margaret, b Cwmdu. Thomas W. is single, b 1848 Cwmdu; he is a farm labourer.
Pinot :)
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Thanks for the info but cannot see any connection, got my hopes up, as there are a lot of Watkins families around with John's Thomas and Daniel which are all family names and looking at the census ( what the plural of census ;D ) I thought maybe ....... ?
Appreciate your help thanks,
Val
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It seems I missed all the excitement last night! Pengwrlode is the Pengarlodau I mentioned in my post on 21st at 9.47. I'm not great at Welsh spelling, but your spelling is more or less the phoenetic spelling. It is pronounced locally as Pen-gar-load-e, but I'm not a Welsh speaker.
It is still there & I can give you directions & possibly put you intouch with the people who live there. But as a labourer, Thomas was possibly only there for a year & moved on after the next hiring fair.
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Thanks Kayzee, I am sure you are right about him moving on but it is nice to know where he was at the time.
Thanks for all your time and trouble.
Val
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I took Kay's advice and e-mailed Powys reg office and they today confirmed Cwmdu as the place of marriage and Penwarglode as his residence.
Thanks again I could have saved you all this trouble if only I had done this first. I thought the smudges would have been on the record so didn't think to ask.
Still hopefully I have made some friends on this forum :-\ ;D
Val