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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: carol8353 on Wednesday 09 March 05 18:39 GMT (UK)

Title: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: carol8353 on Wednesday 09 March 05 18:39 GMT (UK)
Could I appeal to my Rootschatter pals with help to date this family gathering.
We believe it was taken in London,but have no idea why? Is it a wedding- none of the people on it seem to be 'the happy couple'?
If they were well to do,would they have just all posed for a family pic?

Would really appreciate your suggestions.

Cheers Carol

Title: Re: Yet another photo to date - help please
Post by: NigelG on Wednesday 09 March 05 18:47 GMT (UK)
What a fantastic picture! My guess is turn of the century - Edwardian period 1901 to 1910.
Title: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: indiapaleale on Wednesday 09 March 05 19:59 GMT (UK)
Carol....re your fabulous photo.

I am pretty sure that it IS a wedding photo.

I think the young lady (standing) in the white hat is the blushing bride and the chap on her left is the blushing groom. I also think that the couple standing next to the bride are her parents...check out the noses of the two women. I'll also bet that the old lady standing next to the groom is his grandma.

I would also guess that it was taken c.1900.

AND......I want one of those hats !!!!!!

Cheers,
Indi
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: sarah on Wednesday 09 March 05 20:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Carol,

It is a really good clear photograph, lucky you !

Yes Indi I was thinking the same thing, and it looks to be her sister maybe to the left of the couple.

I find it quite interested to see they are all posed infront of a wooden latted building, could this be London or could this be more rural ?

I would say about 1910 as my guess

Sarah
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Rian on Wednesday 09 March 05 22:28 GMT (UK)
It's a great photo! I agree it's a wedding —they are wearing buttonholes, and you can just make out the bride's bouquet. Try this site for dating photos:
http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/photodating.htm

I'm guessing this one is nearer to 1900 than 1910, or even a bit earlier.
Have you any more old pics?
Cheers, Rian.
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: carol8353 on Wednesday 09 March 05 22:45 GMT (UK)
At Last I've finally found MY photo!!!!!!!!!!

I received notification earlier this evening that the topic had been split-but no one said where they had put it. Surely as I started it I should have also had my notification interests transferred?

Anyway...........thanks everyone for the suggestions,I will certainly look at the website suggested,and no I still find it hard to see a bouquet.
Maybe I need new glasses  ;D Or to look at it in daytime perhaps.

Thanks all

Carol
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: carol8353 on Wednesday 09 March 05 23:02 GMT (UK)
Ah so you think the bride is the lady standing at the back with the white stuff on her hat? I can make out flowers in front of her.What IS that chap doing placing a tea cup on top of the lady on the left's hat?
I was thinking the bride had to be the one more to the centre with the sort of frilly shawl round her shoulders.

I can certainly see the resemblance between the two men centre and just left of centre- those eyes !!!!

Carol
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Linda_J on Wednesday 09 March 05 23:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Carol

Another place to look for info on dates of photos is
http://www.cartes.freeuk.com/time/time.htm

This one gives examples of fashions and also describes any design on the back of the photo as well as how sizes vary over the years.

Linda
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Alice.P on Thursday 10 March 05 00:29 GMT (UK)
First of all as others have said, a wonderful photograph & although I'm no expert but does look late Victorian or Edwardian.

I agree with Indi's theory as to who  the bride & groom are.

I doubt they were very well off, but they don't strike me as very poor either. They are fairly well dressed & look well fed, as do the children & the fact they had a photograph at all, says they had access to something many would not have had during that era.

Thank you for sharing it.

 
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: indiapaleale on Thursday 10 March 05 00:48 GMT (UK)
Hi again Carol,

Oh...I did laugh....No I don't think he's putting a cup of tea on her hat !!!I think that teacup shaped thing is part of the ornament on her hat. I took the picture and blew it up and it looks as though he is squeezing her ormanent!  Dirty beast! I think he's being a smart-alec!!

Now the lady with the shawl thing in the center of the picture has a dress with leg o' mutton sleeves. In fact, most of the ladies have leg o' mutton sleeves. Some of the mutton is saggier than others.....enough said.

What I want to know is:
What type of space alien is stroking the hair of the lady with the teacup ornament hat.....???? Look at those fingers !!!!

Cheers,
Indi

Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: AliceO on Thursday 10 March 05 01:09 GMT (UK)
Hello and thanks for sharing your wonderful photo, also to others who have given out website addresses, I've bookmarked them.
Regards
AliceO
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: JAP on Thursday 10 March 05 03:29 GMT (UK)
What a stunning photo!

I would think that it definitely is a wedding (top hats, flowers in the gentlemen's lapels) and that the bride is the seated lady in the centre immediately behind the two children.

My guess is that it might not be much later than 1895 - see the very exaggerated leg of mutton sleeves on the bride's dress; also the frills round the necks of many of the ladies.  As the bride doesn't have a bridal head-dress or a bouquet (which one might perhaps expect given how dressed up the gentlemen are), I am wondering whether she is now in her going-away outfit (I think they were in vogue at the time).  Why are the gents wearing hats - perhaps the ones with top hats had hired them and wanted a photo of themselves wearing them!

The facial hair of the gentlemen might help?  In general they have bushy moustaches and no beards.  Only one chap has waxed ends to his moustache.  A couple have small moustaches (a fashion? - or perhaps they couldn't grow a bushy one).  The only beards are the older man, and the rather arty looking chap with the soft hat.

The building is interesting - shape of the windows and leadlighting.  Also the strange shelf-like arrangement at the top of what appears to be a door behind them.  What is the middle bracket attached to?  Pity the flowers weren't out.

For comparison, here's a nice wedding group from 1900 that I came across:
http://members.porchlight.ca/melking/

Judy
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 13 March 05 12:25 GMT (UK)
We have now narrowed this down to the wedding of one of three brothers,taking place in either 1899,1902 or 1906(a second marriage-his first was in 1892)

Sorry Judy,but I'm still inclined to go with Indi and Rian on this,that the bride is standing at the back and is in fact holding a bouquet(only just visible).
Although the one with the leg o mutton sleeves(or is it a shawl) does seem the most glamorously dressed  there.I thought the top hats might have meant it was quite a well to do wedding-usually even to get a photo makes it such doesn't it?  ;D

BUT........can anyone suggest a time of year?

The ladies all seem to be dressed in very light colours both dresses and hats.
Would that automatically say 'summer' ?

Thanks all.

Carol
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: JillJ on Sunday 13 March 05 20:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Carol,

If it's any help at all this photo is dated 1912.   The fashions are not all that different.

Jill
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Rian on Sunday 13 March 05 22:44 GMT (UK)
One more look at the "teacup" and I'm willing to believe it could BE one, and he is playing a trick on her! Also look at the man to the other side of her— could his hand be at the other side of her head (the aforementioned "space alien") holding up more flowers in a bunch? He has such a wicked grin on his face. I think the two of them are "having a go"at the poor girl. Anyone agree?
Rian.
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 13 March 05 23:05 GMT (UK)
Does anyone think that the man far left, who seems to be dressed far shabbier than the rest of the party,could be a chimney sweep?

Supposed to be lucky isn't it?

Hope that teacup chap isn't a tea leaf too  8)
Maybe the space alien is a dead rellie who just felt he had to attend this wedding ;)


Carol
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 14 March 05 18:38 GMT (UK)
Hi there pals  ;D

I have been sent another family wedding pic(or we think it is)They appear to be the same lot but I think by looking at the age of the children it is some years later.
Maybe two or three? Some of the faces are easy to spot in the previous pic.
Further down the page. What does anyone else think?

This time I see no bouquet at all,do you ;D
It's at the same venue though- just look at those windows.

Would love your suggestions.....again.

Many thanks,

Carol

PS Mr Teacup is not there this time  ;)
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Rian on Monday 14 March 05 23:07 GMT (UK)
Good one! Yes, most of the same people I reckon — and could the man in the centre of the back row be Mr teacup without so much moustache? Miss Teacup-hat is now in the centre in white. Do you think it could be HER wedding? As you say, no bouquet, but her hands are out of sight. However they are not wearing top hats in this one, and the only man who could be the groom is, I think, the groom from the last pic! So what is the occasion? No baby, so not a christening — a significant birthday or wedding anniversary maybe. I would say it was 3 or 4 years later, looking at the little girl who was a toddler in the last one. I love the idea of a sweep in the last pic: you could well be right — well spotted! The hats are stupendous aren't they?!
These photos are lovely —thanks for sharing them!
Rian.
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: indiapaleale on Monday 14 March 05 23:58 GMT (UK)
Hi Carol,

Yes...it's another wedding.....the buttonholes give it away. I think it's the sister of the previous bride....don't they look alike?

Maybe it wasn't such a formal affair ......or maybe it was "top hats off" for the picture.

Is that the same grandma sitting down now?...Boy, she looks well.....seems to have gotten younger.

They are wonderful pics.......AND.....I want one of those hats !!!!!!

Cheers,
Indi
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: deadants on Tuesday 15 March 05 02:39 GMT (UK)
well I'm not sure it's a tea cup. I'd say the Gent on her left, in front of the window, is holding a bunch of flowers up. While the Gent on her right, in front of the door, is placing a hand on the flowers trying to lower them. If you look at the Gent on her right, you will notice his left shoulder has motion blur, which means he moved his arm while the photo  was taken.

I'm starting to feel like Sister Wendy http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/sisterwendy/meet/index.html analyzing a Caravaggio. :D

Try this site. It has some dates for hat styles. http://www.fashion-era.com/Dating_Costume_History_Pictures/costume_detective_1910_crowd_1.htm It's most likey Edwardian c1900 - 1909

deadants
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: deadants on Tuesday 15 March 05 03:09 GMT (UK)
Defiantly same church, same family. Looking at the boy, It wouldn't be anymore than twelve months latter.

deadants

Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Rian on Tuesday 15 March 05 04:47 GMT (UK)
I think the boy could be any of the three; but look at the beret! The girl is wearing it now!! I wouldn't have noticed it if Deadants hadn't done that neat trick with the superimposed pics....
Rian.
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: JAP on Tuesday 15 March 05 05:17 GMT (UK)
Yes, the beret jumped out at me immediately as a hand-me-down!  And don't you love Papa's checked cap?  Not to mention the stiffly-starched Eton collars (poor little boys).  The lady with the double-breasted coat/jacket with very big buttons is interesting - I wonder whether that's an up-to-date fashion?  Her hat is also much smaller in the brim (or perhaps has no brim at all).  Still no foliage on the bare twigs though (perhaps it's dead??) and nothing over the archway.

Judy
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 15 March 05 06:40 GMT (UK)
Deadants,that is so clever,superimposing those faces like that.My hubby and I have photocopied the pics and are in the middle of cutting them all out to see who matches! Oh that I was computer literate enough to do it your way  ;)

I hadn't noticed the tree(twig!) not being in flower.Same time of year maybe?

I love all your suggestions  ;D other people always notice things that you did not first time round.......now all we need is their names!!

By the way they are the Brown family,and yes it's London.
The pic belongs to a friend of mine.

Keep the ideas coming  ;)

All the best

Carol
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: KathyM on Tuesday 15 March 05 07:33 GMT (UK)
I love the photos......think there are a few sisters in the first one.....and the man with the beard with his wife are (bride's?) parents....His wife has her hand on the shoulder of the younf man in front of her...looks like her son.

The venus - I don't think is a church....it looks to me more like a garden summer-house.........the pictures are more relaxed to be directly after the ceremony - and would you have a 'cup of tea' outside the church ?  So I would say it was at the reception - possibly in their own garden ?
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: deadants on Tuesday 15 March 05 07:55 GMT (UK)
check this link http://members.porchlight.ca/melking/index.html it has a fully documented 1900 wedding. Compare the clothes to Carol's photos.

You could be right KathyM, about the Church. It does seem to small. Your suggestion of their own garden sounds like a likely proposition, especially after reading about the wedding in the link above.

deadants
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: JAP on Tuesday 15 March 05 08:11 GMT (UK)
deadants,

Are you going to let us in on the secret of how you do that brilliant extraction and superposition?

Cheers,

Judy
PS: Think that link is the one I posted in my first post on this thread.
PPS (added later): The reason I commented on the lady in the double-breasted coat/jacket is that I wondered whether she is the youngest lady in the photo.  They do say one should always check out the fashions worn by the youngest ladies as those will be the most up to date!
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Paul E on Tuesday 15 March 05 08:18 GMT (UK)
Love the beret!
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: KathyM on Tuesday 15 March 05 08:35 GMT (UK)
That's where the beret went !

Just thought -  I think it is traditional for the bride's family to stand on the side behind the groom and vice versa......so that would fit with the beardy man and his wife being the bride's parents with the bridesmaid in the white hat her sister - plus other sisters (the one who looks ill - with the dark eyes) and her brother......

Also - the photo has rounded corners - which I think were most popular before the turn of the century....
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: deadants on Tuesday 15 March 05 08:47 GMT (UK)
Are you going to let us in on the secret of how you do that brilliant extraction and superposition?

I will do a tutorial tomorow on the all new Photo Restoration http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,298.0.html

deadants
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: percy on Thursday 12 May 05 18:01 BST (UK)

 Definitely a wedding.  Bride is the lady toward the back centre holding the bouquet.  Date circa 1905./

 Time of year, late Autumn/Winter --- no foliage on tree.   Strange wooden(?) building behind the group probably / possibly the church ---- look at the windows --- and probably/possibly Non-Conformist denomination .

'Gent' accused of 'tea-cupping' the lady at the back MAY just be steadying her hat (?)

Percy.
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Shaztoni on Thursday 12 May 05 18:28 BST (UK)
The man is certainly up to no good with that hat, men they never change  ::)
What a wonderful picture all the same.
Sharon
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: jax on Friday 13 May 05 12:53 BST (UK)
OH I loved this thread

its all so fascinating -

I am memorized :o by the history and experiences that these individuals went through in their lives after this pic...

What happened to them? I am intrigued..

Fantastic  ;D
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Paul E on Friday 13 May 05 13:20 BST (UK)
Yes, I was pleased to see this thread resurrected, too.
Maybe we should have a 'best of' board, where we can nominate particularly interesting thread (I know ... they're all interesting!) to be stored for posterity? :)

Paul
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Flipster on Friday 13 May 05 13:25 BST (UK)
Anyone else noticed that the woman on the far right/front row of the first picture has an extra arm??

We've all got snaps in our wedding albums where child does NOT want their photo taken!
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Lloydy on Friday 13 May 05 20:38 BST (UK)
I must have previously missed this thread!!!! It's fascinating, lovely photos.

Flipster, I have just noticed the extra arm!!! creepy ;D ;D


Jan
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Paul E on Friday 13 May 05 22:10 BST (UK)
Flipster - I think the 'extra' arm beongs to the chap standing behind - although with this group you wouldn;t be surprised if it WAS a spare one! :)

Paul
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Su on Friday 13 May 05 22:26 BST (UK)
I missed this as well.

What a fantastic photo.  I also think it is the wedding of the lady in white and the chap on her left.

What a great bunch they look.  The woman on the right is keeping her eye on bloke behind with the extra long arm.

Keep yer hand to yerself 'Arry....

I think it is about 1908-10 as I have a similar wedding photo and the old ladies small hats are the same on mine.

Su
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Flipster on Saturday 14 May 05 07:41 BST (UK)
PaulE,
think youre right. Having looked again, its just the way her sleeve falls making it look like an extra arm!
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Dinkydidy on Monday 02 April 07 18:58 BST (UK)
I know this is an old thread, well before my Rootschat debut, and heaven knows now how I came across it......??????

Anyway, I found it fascinating, and just had to add my opinion about the two "mischievous" men either side of the lady with the teacup hat.

I think they simply have their hands through the wire of the archway round the door (which has disappeared in the second photo). The "alien" hand is holding onto the frame, and it is the wire, not a teacup, that the other one is holding.

Mind you, any sort of breeze and those ladies would have needed all the help they could get with those hats!   ;D
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: mich b on Monday 02 April 07 19:42 BST (UK)
Hi

I've gone back and forth looking and re-looking at the original photo which I have to say is absolutely fascinating. What an insight into the times.

I agree with Percy about it being likely that it's a non-conformist church (i.e. not Cof E). I know of churches that look like that now.

As for the "tea-cupper" with the soup-strainer moustache, I agree with Dinkydidy, I think that both men either side of the lady on the left with the flamboyant hat are doing nothing more innocuous than holding onto the wicker arch. Shame though I'd have loved to have seen "rabbit ears" behind Granny. Maybe photo's were far too expensive to mess about on in those days.

Michelle  :)
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: old rowley on Monday 02 April 07 22:37 BST (UK)
Both of these wedding studies were, I feel, taken in the latter part of the 1890's, and that there was possibly only a couple (if that) years between each one taking part. Using photograph number one I have tried to take out different points to attempt to give a date period.

In the case of the men in the group the majority are wearing Silk (Top) Hats which would (by the appearence of them) have been about 6-7 inches high to the crown and slightly bell shaped, these would be the correct style to wear with Frock or Morning Coat  as well as evening attire. In general the Silk Hat started to have a decline by 1900 but was still being worn for weddings and formal occassions. Two of the men are wearing Homburgs which was a stiff felt hat with a "dent" in the crown which ran from front to back. This hat had started to come into men's fashion during the 1880's and by 1889 it had become acceptable to wear with the lounge suit due to the then Prince of Wales being seen wearing one. On the far right of the picture one can see the only low round-crown hard felt hat more universally known as The Bowler. This was in the main black in colour but during the summer months men would sport brown/fawn(grey)/ and even pearl coloured ones. Facial hair, as seen here, was common throughout the 1890's up to 1900 and just beyond. Finally if you look at the man standing roughly in the centre of the picture above the young girl wearing the bonnet it appears that he has a watch chain hole in his waist coat. This hole was tailored into the waist coat between button holes and was in general use in 1895.

In the case of the women in the group of the first photograph the two elderly women are wearing bonnets as against the rest who are wearing hats. Bonnets were tied under the chin with ribbon which was known as "string" or "stringing" whereas hats were held in place by either a tie at the back of the head or with hat pins going through one side of the hat to the other. There is at least one, if not two, hats that have the appearence of the brim being turned upwards this started to come into millinery wear from about 1897. Staying with the hats, styles were generally of a low crown affair, wide brim's (but not as wide as they became after 1900 where some even reached out to the shoulders) and were decorated with flower's/feathers/ribbons and bow's depending on the wearer at the time. The hair style, from what I can make out, that most of the women have has the ears exposed, curly fringes, and in some case's what look likes centre partings. This style was popular during the mid to late 1890's. Lastly the sleeving for the bodice and blouse tops are of the gigot or leg of mutton type and this came into fashion from 1893 to 1897 when it started to disappear, although I have seen some photographs where a version of the gigot sleeving was still being worn in 1900.

Therefore I feel that the date period that you are looking for should be between 1896 and 1900.

old rowley
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: Dinkydidy on Monday 02 April 07 23:06 BST (UK)
I "dips me lid" to you, old rowley. That was a wonderfully detailed analysis of the fashions in this photo. I'm sure it helped to have such a large group showing developing styles.

Didy
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: chinakay on Tuesday 03 April 07 00:04 BST (UK)
Thank goodness you dropped in, OR, I was just about to pm you...I didn't want you to miss this fabulous photo!

Notice how well it's grouped? Nobody's hidden behind someone's head or hat or elbow, every face is clearly seen. That takes some posing.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: chinakay on Tuesday 03 April 07 00:11 BST (UK)
Also, if you post this wonderful pic on the Photo Restoration board, Carol, someone there can give it a little tidy for you. Someone may, even, feel inspired to add a little colour, maybe :D

C
Title: Re: Wedding photo to date - help please
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 03 April 07 06:46 BST (UK)
Hi all

I thought this thread was dead and buried long ago  ;D

The pics belong to a friend of mine-the family's name is Brown.

They are such wonderful photo's aren't they,I wouldn't want to spoil them by adding colour where none was meant due to the era of the photo- thanks anyway.

I will ask him and see what he says though.

Old Rowley- WOW- what can I say. You went to so much trouble, many thanks for that. My pal has a choice of a few dates of weddings in that family and didn't know which one each might have been.In fact he was thinking that the groom may have been the same chap,he married twice,the second time fairly soon after the first wife died.Or the other one could have been the wedding of any one of the brothers.

All the best

Carol

Edit- please don't try to colour the pics- the owner of the photos would not be happy about that.Thanks.