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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: tilly25 on Thursday 05 November 09 14:47 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to trace my husbands mothers family
She married James Brett 29 march 1937 aged 24, in Nottingham, her father was William Carroll a soldier who died in 1914-1918 war.
She went on to have several children.
Moderator Comment: Names of living people removed. Please do not post any details of people who are still alive.
She told my husband several porkie pies, he was told that she was in an orphanage perhaps in Bristol, that she had a twin sister who was killed in a road accident whilst they were young, also she said she came from Ireland ( we don't know what is true).
Any guidance would be appreciated
Judy
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Hi Judy
Have you searched for her birth?
Dorothy E Carroll Dec 1/4 1912, Reg. Chelsea MN Watts
Dorothy E Carroll Mar 1/4 1915, Reg. Hull MN Robinson
Maidmarion :)
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Hi Judy,
I know we should never assume anything, but I'm assuming that she is no longer here. So, do you know when and where she died? We might be able to work backwards from there!!
Paula
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Hi
I have tried to trace her birth without success, she died around 1988-89 in Ireland possibly the Cavan area.
Judy
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Hi
I am still trying to trace my husband mother and have purchased a couple of birth certs Dorothy Lilian Carroll has the correct date of birth 1st March 1913 but has no father on the certificate just mother Norah Carroll who was a domestic servant in Nottingham, Dorothy Enid Carroll has the wrong birthday.
I have also look at Irish/ Northern Irish births without success, this seem a bit of an enigma
Any further suggestion would be appreciated.
Judy
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Hi Judy, I am hoping you remember me Maria Brett, I have been researching the family tree, if you are interested I have information about granny.
Maria x
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Hi Maria
Yes I do remember you, it seems a long time ago.
Any information you have on your granny I would be grateful to receive. I must say that the Brett side of the family has proved rather difficult. although I have confirmation of her DOB on 1939 register I haven’t been able to find her birth registered in UK.
I also have never been able to find the marriage between your grandfathers parents, William Brett and Ethel Beddowes although have grandfathers James birth certificate
The other mystery is that your grandfather James Brett on probate register says” James Brett otherwise James Albari of 52 Gedling Gro Arnold Nottingham. Where has the other surname come from?
Hope you can fill in some gaps for me
Judy
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Hi Maria,
I have tried to PM you but your in box is full.
Cheers
Alan
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Duplicate thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806537.new#new
Pheno
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Hi Maria,
I have tried to PM you but your in box is full.
Cheers
Alan
New Members need 2/3 posts before they can use PM system- it's explained in the HELP pages (link at top of the page).
I am still trying to trace my husband mother and have purchased a couple of birth certs Dorothy Lilian Carroll has the correct date of birth 1st March 1913 but has no father on the certificate just mother Norah Carroll who was a domestic servant in Nottingham, Dorothy Enid Carroll has the wrong birthday.
I have also look at Irish/ Northern Irish births without success, this seem a bit of an enigma
Any further suggestion would be appreciated.
Why can't the birth certificate for Dorothy Lilian Carroll be the correct one?
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It can’t be Dorothy Lillian Carroll wrong middle name, on Marriage cert and 1939 register it states Dorothy Elizabeth Carroll with father’s name of William Carroll (deceased) soldier.
On Dorothy Lillian Carroll birth cert no father named and has taken mothers surname.
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What address does she give when she married James Brett?
Annette
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They both lived at 20 Noel St, Nottingham
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Where is she on the 1939 register as I think I am finding her as Elizabeth D BRETT DoB 01.03.1913
If this is her perhaps she was registered as Elizabeth
Also I have had many a relative whose name in later life did not accurately reflect their birth records e.g. Mary Martha being Matilda all her life!
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Hi
I am still trying to trace my husband mother and have purchased a couple of birth certs Dorothy Lilian Carroll has the correct date of birth 1st March 1913 but has no father on the certificate just mother Norah Carroll who was a domestic servant in Nottingham,
I wouldn't rule her out -Lilian and Elizabeth do seem to exchange themselves (especially if she was in an orphanage she may not be exactly sure of her name) I know my great grandfather born at a similar time acquired a middle name at some point, which is on both marriage and death certificates but not his birth certificate
You said yourself she was a bit of a story teller, she wouldn;t be the first to make up a father to cover the stigma of being illegimate (or even been told that by her mother)
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Where is she on the 1939 register as I think I am finding her as Elizabeth D BRETT DoB 01.03.1913
If this is her perhaps she was registered as Elizabeth
Thats true my husbands great grandmother was born Lily Nora, but she used Norah Lily the rest of her life
OP who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate that may give us clues
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On 1939 register they were living at 9 Wellington St, Arnold
The witnesses to the marriage were George and Mabel Thompson. Vicar is B Kenyon
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Hello,
It is very interesting to stumble across this thread - we also have a family member who has the mother's name of Dorothy Elizabeth Carroll on his birth certificate. He was born in the Nottingham area in 1935 (no father's name on the birth certificate) and was adopted. We have not been able to find any further information or family connections so far.
Our research has led us to the possibility that this is also the same Elizabeth Dorothy that married James Brett so it is very interesting that you have also made this suggestion!!
And Maria, if this is the case then there is a possibility we may all be related?!
It could all be a coincidence but if there is a chance that we are talking about the same person, it would be extremely interesting to talk further - perhaps we might be able to share some information.
Judy/Alan/Maria, it would be fascinating to discuss this further, would you mind getting in touch via email please (I am not able to PM yet)?
My email address is (*)
I really hope that someone sees this message and we are able to connect.
Our grandad is now around 84 and has never known any of his real family so even the smallest link would be interesting to explore :)
Many thanks,
Hattie and Grace
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hattie you need to remove your e-mail address as this is not allowed. This is done to prevent you from receiving Spam. You need 2/3 posts then you can private message.
https://www.rootschat.com/help/index.php
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OK no problem! Hopefully people are able to reply on this thread 🙂
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We have now confirmation that the Dorothy Lilian Carroll birth certificate is the correct on, so now trying to find Norah Carroll her mother, the only information we have is that she was a domestic servant at Southwell House which on investigation was a house for fallen women. So it now becomes guess work as to who Norah was, unless anyone can point me in the right direction.
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How were you able to confirm that Dorothy Lilian Carroll b.1913 is the lady you were seeking?
If I'm reading everything right, she married as Dorothy Elizabeth, was Elizabeth D. (Dorothy) on 1939 register, and I cannot find a death entry for her with these names. When did she die and what Christian names were given then?
Annette
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We have found her birth certificate in her belongings stating Dorothy Lilian, my husband one of her sons wasn’t aware of his mother being called anything other than Dorothy Elizabeth which was on her marriage certificate, the 1939 register and her death certificate, she died in 1990 in Ireland
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A Nora Carroll birth was registered Mar.qtr.1892 Nottingham - GRO index shows illegitimate.
Cannot find her in 1901 census but 1911 index on familysearch shows her as a servant working in Croydon. Did she become pregnant and get sent back to her birthplace to have the child there?
Annette
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I also found this person, her name Nora didn’t have h at the end( Norah) don’t know if this is important or not.
Where on Gro does it say she was illegitimate? Just for my interest.
Unless I find a Norah Carroll together with Dorothy Lilian on a record together I can never be sure we have the right person. How would you go forward Annette?
Judy
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I also found this person, her name Nora didn’t have h at the end( Norah) don’t know if this is important or not.
Where on Gro does it say she was illegitimate? Just for my interest.
The GRO's own index (on same site where you order certificates) shows mothers maiden names - if it is just '-' that means the child was illegitimate.
Unless I find a Norah Carroll together with Dorothy Lilian on a record together I can never be sure we have the right person. How would you go forward Annette?
The only record which will show them together (supposing that Dorothy was raised by her mother) would be the 1921 census so you'll have to wait awhile.
Annette
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Thanks for your help, I will eagerly await the 1921 census.
Judy
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Have been in touch with Nottingham archives. Norah Carroll went to Southwell House when 5 months pregnant and gave birth to Dorothy who weighed 4lbs 10ozs on 1/3/1913
I also found Norah mother Mary Carroll who was admitted from the parish of St Mary’s to give birth to Norah on 13/1/1892
I am now searching for Mary who was born in 1858 not sure if in Nottinghamshire Have now found Mary on 1891 census boarding at 26 Cathcart st Nottingham which states she was born in Derbyshire but not where
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The 1891 census actually does say that Mary was born in Derby, Derbyshire. However the image shows that there are ditto marks under the head of household's birth place.
The only birth that appears to fit for a Derby birth registration is this one:-
CARROLL, MARY DEMPSEY
GRO Reference: 1856 M Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 360
This is two years earlier than the birth year given in the 1891 census. Have you tried tracing Mary in earlier census records?
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I was totally thrown by no town just Derbyshire, I have her year of birth 1858 from the information received from Nottingham archives
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Do I take it that the information from Nottinghamshire archives related to Norah rather than Mary? If it included Mary did it say anything else about her other than her birth year?
Were any addresses mentioned that were not Norah's birth place?
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The information I received were related to births of Dorothy and Norah. The only information about Mary was her dob 1858, no further addresses given other than what I have on birth certs which is Mary a hose hand of 10 Hills Yard, Millstone Lane Nottingham in 1892
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The 1891 census that I was looking at I think must be the right one. Mary's occupation is given as hosiery turner off which would go well with hose hand.
I'm just wondering how accurate her birth place is. I assume that the 1891 census is the only one on which you have located her? Any suggestion that she married?
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I did find a Mary Carroll on 1881 census born Acklington Derbyshire 1858, the address of the census was Ardwick Lancs
Father Patrick aged 50
Mother Bridget aged 60
Sister Sarah aged 21 piecer (cotton mills)
Sister Catherine aged 17 same occ.
This could be her or not
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Yes I did see that one and wondered. Acklington according to Google is in Northumberland and comes under the Alnwick registration district.
I'll see if I can find this family in the 1871 census.
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I check the same out then saw on another 1881 census site it also said Derbyshire very confusing
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Possible? born in Derbyshire, living right place in Notts.
1871, Civil parish: St Mary, Nottinghamshire
Piece: 3515, Folio: 68, Page number: 22
John McCaffery 35 Head, Ireland
Mary McCaffery 40 Wife, Ireland
Mary Carrol 15 Stepdaughter, Derbyshire
Cas
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That’s interesting as she was admitted to workhouse from the parish of St Mary’s Nottingham
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The 1881 family I have found living here Mckees Buildings, St Peter, Manchester, Lancashire in 1871.
Patrick, Bridget, Mary, Sarah and Cati (Catherine)
Registration district Manchester
Archive reference RG10
Piece number 4028
Folio 67
Page 21
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Does it say where Mary was born
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Just looked at the 1871 image, Mary is born Derby, Derbyshire and occupation is cotton carder.
John and Mary born in Ireland and John is a builder's labourer.
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Very interesting again but which one is right, this one or the Mary Carrol staying with her stepparents in Nottingham.
Thanks for you help
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Possible? born in Derbyshire, living right place in Notts.
1871, Civil parish: St Mary, Nottinghamshire
Piece: 3515, Folio: 68, Page number: 22
John McCaffery 35 Head, Ireland
Mary McCaffery 40 Wife, Ireland
Mary Carrol 15 Stepdaughter, Derbyshire
Cas
Looking to see where and when John and Mary married I’m assuming that Mary’s maiden name is Carrol because of the stepdaughter being present on the census
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I now have Mary Carroll’s birth certificate born 21st February 1856 Court, 3 Willow Row Derby parents Peter Carroll (militial corporal) Mary Carroll formerly Dempsey, registered 6th March 1856.
Peter must have died as Mary had remarried by 1871 census to John MCCaffery and young Mary Carroll was with them
I can’t find either Peter carroll marriage to Mary Dempsey or his death, also can’t find Mary Dempsey/ Carroll remarriage to John McCaffery
Any pointers would be appreciated
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Possible?
Marriages Jun 1855 on same page with 2 others
CARROLL Peter Derby 7b 620
DEMPSEY Mary Derby 7b 620
Cas
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Sorry cas I found that I forgot and shouldn’t have put that in my message sorry
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Maybe a red herring, but there is this family in Leicestershire 1861. Lodging with a Grady family.
Peter Carrall 39 Ireland, spectacle maker.
Mary Carrall 35 Ireland
Mary Carrall 5 Derby
Thomas Carrall 1 month Leicestershire
The 1861 Census for England was taken on the night of 7 April 1861.
CARROLL, THOMAS mother's maiden DEMPSY
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 166
So a possible? Also maybe Mary Snr in 1871 never married, just cohabited.
Cas
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Although that looks possible there are a few anomalies
1. Peters occupation 4 yrs earlier was corporal in military
2. Mary snr age on 1871 census she was 40 making birth year 1831 whereas on 1861 census she was 35 making birth year 1826
On both censuses it agrees that she was born in Ireland.
Where was Thomas in 1871 census
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There is a Thomas Carroll who died in leicester in 1861 should would account for his absence on 1871 census
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Maybe he came out of the army?
Maybe she was a lot older than her partner in 1871 so took some years off.
Have not looked for a death for Thomas.
There will always be anomalies in FH unfortunately, not many are straight forward.
Just thought I would post as could be a connection.
Good luck
Cas